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View Full Version : Armor as DR Variant



weenie
2008-08-21, 10:34 AM
I know this is a variant of a variant, but it might make dex oriented melee characters a bit less... well, a bit less sucky.

What I'd like to suggest is to give all PCs and NPCs two AC scores. One would be the regular one, and the other would be modified as per the Armor as DR (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/adventuring/armorAsDamageReduction.htm) variant rules. Now when a character attacks another there would be 3 possible outcomes:

- The attacker beats the defender's regular AC and damage is resolved as usually
- The attacker doesn't beat the regular AC, but beats the modified AC. In this case DR from armor and/or natural armor applies to the damage
- The attacker doesn't beat any of the two ACs and the attack misses

Furthermore I'd replace STR bonus to melee attacks with DEX bonus. This would probably power up the rogue a bit though.. What do you think?

AstralFire
2008-08-21, 11:07 AM
I know this is a variant of a variant, but it might make dex oriented melee characters a bit less... well, a bit less sucky.

As long as you're willing to go outside of core, this... is not an issue at all. Like, not remotely. If you're just sticking to PHB classes, then yes, but I'm not sure the added complication is worth it.

Also not certain how this benefits Dex anyway.


Furthermore I'd replace STR bonus to melee attacks with DEX bonus. This would probably power up the rogue a bit though.. What do you think?

That would completely neuter Fighters, Paladins, and Barbarians. Like, completely. Power Attack works because Strength (which you need for PA) boosts your attack roll and your damage bonus (x1.5 if using a two hander, which you should) and then you feed that attack roll bonus back into the damage roll. If you must, give WF as a free feat to Rogues and Monks or something, but requiring Dex over Str not only upsets mechanics, it doesn't make sense conceptually. Attacks hit because they are fast and controlled. Missing with a weapon occurs because you begin a swing too slow and predict your opponent badly, rarely because you didn't make a 1 degree angle correction.

Dexterity is on the whole a much more powerful stat than Strength. Weapon Finesse feat and boom, anyone with a source of damage that isn't Power Attack can completely disregard Strength's existence, while they simultaneously pump up their Tumble, Initiative, AC and Balance. Strength, on the other hand, boosts Melee Damage a minor amount if you are not two-handing, carrying capacity (a rarer issue) and some skills that no one actually cares about and get rarely referenced.

Triaxx
2008-08-21, 11:58 AM
You're going at it wrong. If you make all types of weapon run on dex, you're screwing fighter/paladin/barbarian players. But if you make only piercing weapons run on dex, you're much less likely to find any of the above wielding those. And if they are chances are it's a bow, and those need good dex anyway, since they're ranged attacks.

AstralFire
2008-08-21, 12:40 PM
Then you get into the issue of finessed picks, morningstars and spears, which -really- don't make sense.

weishan
2008-08-21, 02:32 PM
Then you get into the issue of finessed picks, morningstars and spears, which -really- don't make sense.

As a martial artist, I'd have to disagree. You can swing a pick or light mace very violently to overcome someone's guard by tearing it down or smashing it in, or you can swing it around their guard.

AstralFire
2008-08-21, 02:38 PM
As a martial artist, I'd have to disagree. You can swing a pick or light mace very violently to overcome someone's guard by tearing it down or smashing it in, or you can swing it around their guard.

Which still requires strength a lot more than it does dexterity unless you are merely point sparring. Speed and control come from strength. Dexterity is fine control, which is a logical element for say, guns and bows.

*is also a martial artist*

CrazyMacGuy
2008-08-21, 03:27 PM
YOU ARE ALL WRONG I'M RIGHT!! :sarcasm:

Ok, now to be actually helpful and combine the responses of my friends above.

Weenie, this is how you could go about this.

1) Adopt the Armor as DR variant (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/adventuring/armorAsDamageReduction.htm)into your campaign. You already seem to have the idea down that would work, with two AC's, but you have to weigh the extra math (fighter would be better if he had a better head for math) involved in this system. As far as balance is concerned, it will create a "window of opportunity" so to speak where there are just as many hits that will hit your players (or you) and do their damage [this is most seen at higher levels when a dragon will have a BAB of like +30, even DR armor won't help you survive that one any more, because those huge hits will still hit and hit hard], but about half or more of the ones that would normally not hit at all, will do some damage, granting a greater sense of reality to the setting and the world, an a sense of mortality to your fighter/cleric/paladin who before just said "nope, that one doesn't hit me." Believe me, as a DM this is frustrating to the point where I started throwing rust monsters and disintegrate spells targeting their armor (hey, i'm the DM, I can do that). I like it, and I think that it balances the two variations nicely.

2) Something else that I remember reading somewhere in my crazy messed up D&D mind, was this concept of having a dice value for your armor's damage reduction and it has to be rolled by you for every attack to determine how much of that attack you are able to deflect with your DR, and brings the play of "randomness" into affect, which could be fun for your players (or you). A quick thought would be that a DR value of 1 would be 1d2 and 2 would be 1d3 and so on... (remember abstract dice rolls can be accomplished by combining dice, this is something I have used before for a some weapons dealing 1d7 damage (basically a d4 and a d3) it works quite well) With this system your DR average is a little lower on average, but there is the chance that your dice will roll well, giving the game a sense of Drama, which is always fun, since this is a Fantasy game after all!

3) When it comes to modifying the ability that adds to your BAB to determine to hit, don't eliminate strength, but substitute it. There is a Feat, that has been mentioned multiple times called "Weapon Finesse (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#weaponFinesse)" which can be taken so long as the character has a BAB of +1. You could add this to a Rogue at 2nd level, or a Monk at 1st. Play with it, its your world if your the DM, and the DM may let it slide if they like the idea, or you can justify it.

4) One OTHER option that comes to mind with this idea of substituting dex is Faults, from Unearthed Arcana (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/DnD_Flaws), my link there is to the DnD Wiki, which is a nice resource. These faults will give you one Bonus Feat to use at 1st level, so it will help the Monk, but the Rogue is still left out, since it starts with +0 BAB (which I hate, since I like to play the sneaky characters).

This is my offering to this discussion. Take it as it is, and hack it apart if it makes no sense. I only have my own experience to go on.

Spiryt
2008-08-21, 03:52 PM
Well - weapon finesse is one of stupidest part of 3.5.

The is simply no freaking point of making short sword or hand axe more "finesable" and dexterity oriented than greatsword or spear. But fixing it unfortunately tips everything over.

CrazyMacGuy
2008-08-21, 04:07 PM
The is simply no freaking point of making short sword or hand axe more "finesable" and dexterity oriented than greatsword or spear. But fixing it unfortunately tips everything over.

I beg to disagree, and here is my reasoning. It is not that you can swing them any "faster" but you swing them with more "accuracy" and "precision" and that is possible because of your dexterity and experience with those weapons and their balance that allows you to do that.

Remember also, that you are basically not able to carry a shield (see the weapons finesse feat, you have to apply your shields check penalty to your ATK bonus), so you trade off at lower levels (before you can afford the nice boosts to AC that are not shields at the higher levels) your AC for being able to hit more often.

Spiryt
2008-08-21, 04:21 PM
I beg to disagree, and here is my reasoning. It is not that you can swing them any "faster" but you swing them with more "accuracy" and "precision" and that is possible because of your dexterity and experience with those weapons and their balance that allows you to do that.


Where I wrote anything about being "faster" ? :smallconfused:

The problem is that any sword (or any weapon for that matter) works better with aplication of "accuracy" and "precision" :smalltongue:

And while longswords or spears are certainly accurate and quick weapons, they can't do that at all in 3.5. And shortswords or light picks, not to mention damn sickles, can.

And that makes no sense.

CrazyMacGuy
2008-08-21, 04:43 PM
Hehe... :smallredface:

Sometimes I read what I think I want...

Well, if you think of the classification of weapons, most light weapons weigh 2lbs or less (looks at the SRD to check), ok 3lbs or less... this is the breaking line for those light weapons. Their light weight allows your dexterity ONLY to impact your ability to HIT a target, nothing gets applied to damage. Even a character with a 6 STR can hit something, but they are not going to do much damage.

Other weapons that don't apply, or should, is a whole other issue, and really is the beauty of DnD. You want your DEX to apply to a short spear? Make the argument to your DM and if your convincing, its in, if not when your a DM, make it so. I know this is more avoiding the question than anything else, but it makes a lot of sense.

Truthfully, I really don't like that bludgeoning weapons, like the light hammer and the light mace, can apply to the Weapon Finesse feat, but really, I've never seen them used that way. Its 99 times out of 100 a Rogue that wants a rapier but can't afford the STR to use it.

Spiryt
2008-08-21, 05:02 PM
Hehe... :smallredface:

Sometimes I read what I think I want...

Well, if you think of the classification of weapons, most light weapons weigh 2lbs or less (looks at the SRD to check), ok 3lbs or less... this is the breaking line for those light weapons. Their light weight allows your dexterity ONLY to impact your ability to HIT a target, nothing gets applied to damage. Even a character with a 6 STR can hit something, but they are not going to do much damage.


I'm not really sure what you're arguing about here. The weights of the weapons are mostly ridiculous in D&D anyway, if that's what are you talking about. And 6 strenght character hitting something but "doesn't dealing much damage", well... If you are arguing that they can just stab something a bit beacuse weapon is light - they can do this even easier with halberd, beacuse it's way longer.

If low weight would make weapon more accurate, bamboo sticks would be most "accurate" weapons...



Other weapons that don't apply, or should, is a whole other issue, and really is the beauty of DnD. You want your DEX to apply to a short spear? Make the argument to your DM and if your convincing, its in, if not when your a DM, make it so. I know this is more avoiding the question than anything else, but it makes a lot of sense.


The point is that making other weapons finessable will break the system quite a bit. Ideal solutions would be making both Dex and Str take part in hitting with most weapons. A lot system do that.

Her I'm not talking abot possible homebrew, I'm just complaining about stupidity of those particular 3.5 rules. Sue me.

CrazyMacGuy
2008-08-21, 05:07 PM
Hey man, I'm not disagreeing with anything your saying, I'm just typing it through, thinking...

I completely agree that the current 3.5 system has its flaws, but really, this is fantasy... its flaws are what we love.

With Homebrew being the aim here, I would agree with the STR and DEX being used to HIT but only STR adding to DAMAGE. This would solve the tussle, and really twist things around, in a fun way, of course. :smallbiggrin:

Spiryt
2008-08-21, 05:16 PM
I completely agree that the current 3.5 system has its flaws, but really, this is fantasy... its flaws are what we love.


I must say that I generally love the feats, not the flaws:smallamused:




With Homebrew being the aim here, I would agree with the STR and DEX being used to HIT but only STR adding to DAMAGE. This would solve the tussle, and really twist things around, in a fun way, of course. :smallbiggrin:

I was talking about "ideal solution" in regard of "making sense in describing and all" not neing ideal solution for D&D.
Making Dex and Str modify to hit would simply make too high values of attack bonuses.
And what druids would be able to do with it... Brrr.

Making it something like 1/2 Dex + 1/2 Strenght to hit, would cause other problems. Paladin being the simplest example.

Overally making Dexterity affecting attack bonus would require heavy homebrewing of other game parts.

weenie
2008-08-21, 07:36 PM
I kinda knew this would happen :smalltongue:

My starting idea was that it is not the same thing to deflect a powerful swing off your armor or to dodge it because even with all the heavy armor you can buy getting hit with a large hammer still hurts. And the idea that a fighter with 42 STR and 4 DEX could stab a fly in mid air also seems a bit inappropriate. I was quite aware of what my change would do to fighters, but I once tried to create a DEX focused fighter(not just a melee build, a single classed fighter(which should by the way be the generic all purpose melee class)), and the result was, to say the least, disappointing. Now I'm not sure how to go about this, but I just can't stand those damn hill giants hitting all the time and the poor little swashbucklers doing almost no damage at all.

Ok, maybe applying WF to all weapons wasn't such a good idea, but it was the first thing to come to mind. Maybe using a DEX-STR average would do a better job, since it would no longer suffice to pump only one attribute sky high, but it would make both attributes count. In this case W Finesse could still work as normal, so that Swashbucklers could still have a better chance at hitting flies, and giants could still hit people for 2d8+10(-2) all day long. I know this would hurt meleers, but the question is how much?

AstralFire
2008-08-21, 08:22 PM
I kinda knew this would happen :smalltongue:

My starting idea was that it is not the same thing to deflect a powerful swing off your armor or to dodge it because even with all the heavy armor you can buy getting hit with a large hammer still hurts. And the idea that a fighter with 42 STR and 4 DEX could stab a fly in mid air also seems a bit inappropriate.

Why? I'm probably... a 10, -maybe- 11 Str guy, I can kill flies in mid-air. And while I am fairly flexible, it has nothing to do with that - I just swat them so damn hard they die from compressed air, too fast for them to react quickly. That is, incidentally, the secret to grabbing a flying insect - the strength to build up speed rapidly. The other stuff like shaping your hand to make less noise is less important if it's even true. It's an intelligent application of strength, not a dexterous one. Now, plucking them out of the air with chopsticks, sure.


I was quite aware of what my change would do to fighters, but I once tried to create a DEX focused fighter(not just a melee build, a single classed fighter(which should by the way be the generic all purpose melee class)), and the result was, to say the least, disappointing. Now I'm not sure how to go about this, but I just can't stand those damn hill giants hitting all the time and the poor little swashbucklers doing almost no damage at all.

Solutions:
- Quick-and-Dirty-Screw-Core Solution: Use Tome of Battle - Swordsage and Warblades both play nice with Dex (and it's pretty much expected for a Swordsage.)
- Quick-and-Dirty-Google-The-Internet Solution: Find one of the many houseruled versions of Swashbucklers that are worth more than 3 levels.
- Quick-and-Dirty-Mostly-Core Solution: Hybridize Rogue and Fighter. Give Fighter half the normal bonus feats and let them get a version of Sneak Attack that works without flanking. Strip them of all armor proficiencies but Light, as well as shield proficiencies besides the buckler. Knock HP down to d8. Skill points to 4+Int, throw in some rogue things. Reflex as a high save in addition to/instead of (your choice) Fortitude. HEY IT'S A SWASHBUCKLER!

Changing classes to add new mechanics is almost always easier than redoing a core mechanic and then altering all of the balance ripples it generates.