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View Full Version : Questions for any masters of 3.5 monster rules



Calemyr
2008-08-21, 11:28 AM
Here's the background. My DM learned an important lesson last night: never let an artificer touch a deck of many things. Or maybe he learned the opposite, because he seems to be looking forward to seeing what my character does with the results: 50,000 experience that got shunted into his crafting pool due to an odd combination of circumstances. Time to put that Craft Construct feat to work, and quick.

Here are my questions for anyone who knows the monster rules for 3.5 well enough:
1) Can constructs (in particular the effigies from Complete Arcane) run?
2) Can creatures "run" with non-land speeds, such as flight, burrowing, or climbing?
3) Are there any non-DM-determined limits as to how much a construct can be customized during its creation?

This is why: The idea I had was to create a level 12 effigy Wyvern. Level 11+ Wyverns are Gargantuan in size category. Between native strength, size boosts to strength and carrying capacity, and the strength boost as an effigy, such a construct would have a LIGHT carrying capacity of 8.5 tons. What I'd like to do is use the spaces for unnecessary organs (for an effigy, at least, particularly brain, lungs and stomach) and convert them into compartments for the party (cockpit, dorms, and storage respectively). It would be, in effect, a draconic airship with a really nasty bite. The only downside is that an 80 flight speed only comes out to 9 miles per hour. Being able to "run" while flying would improve that a fair bit, and since constructs never tire, well...

So here's question 4) How badly am I wrecking the rules to even suggest this?

RTGoodman
2008-08-21, 12:03 PM
I don't know anything about contructing effigies and stuff like that, but I can help you on the running part (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#movementModes).


Movement Modes

Burrow
[...]
Creatures cannot charge or run while burrowing.

Climb
[...]
Creatures cannot run while climbing.

Fly
[...]
A creature can use the run action while flying, provided it flies in a straight line.

Swim
[...]
The creature can use the run action while swimming, provided it swims in a straight line.

I don't see why Constructs couldn't use the run action - nothing about the type itself indicates they can't.

Also, Dragons (and maybe other flying critters) have an overland movement rate (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/dragonTrue.htm#dragonOverlandMovement) that gives them speeds in miles per hour and per day based on normal flight speed. Wyvern don't have this and are slower fliers, but you might convince your DM to give them an overland flight speed of, say, 8 to 10 mph (which fits in with your 9 mph figure you already stated).

Chronos
2008-08-21, 12:24 PM
The golem descriptions used to say that they couldn't run, but they changed that from 3.0 to 3.5. And I don't think other constructs ever said anything about it at all. So sure, they can run.


Also, Dragons (and maybe other flying critters) have an overland movement rate that gives them speeds in miles per hour and per day based on normal flight speed.Everything has an overland movement rate, which works out to the same as their regular movement (assuming that one mile is rounded off to 6000 feet). The tables provided for dragons are just there for convenience.

Calemyr
2008-08-21, 12:28 PM
Oh, that's sweet. If that's the case, the wyvern could reach speeds of 36 mph. That's not jet speeds, but that's a fair bit better than walking on foot. (Especially since you are right, there's nothing that says it in the description and effegies are describing as moving so similarly to the real thing that it's hard to tell the difference.)

Of course that means the real fun begins when I add in my personal effigy, a level 12 effigy gold dragon. 200 speed is impressive to begin with ~23 MPH, but it becomes downright nasty at high speeds that can reach 92 MPH. Now all I need to do is figure out how to mimic the dragon's original Alternate Form and breath weapon abilities.

Runolfr
2008-08-21, 02:01 PM
What I'd like to do is use the spaces for unnecessary organs (for an effigy, at least, particularly brain, lungs and stomach) and convert them into compartments for the party (cockpit, dorms, and storage respectively). It would be, in effect, a draconic airship with a really nasty bite. The only downside is that an 80 flight speed only comes out to 9 miles per hour. Being able to "run" while flying would improve that a fair bit, and since constructs never tire, well...

So here's question 4) How badly am I wrecking the rules to even suggest this?

Problems I see with this plan:

I see no reason to think an effigy creature can free up internal space because it doesn't have organs. It may not have a heart, lungs, stomach, etc., but an effigy presumably has important mechanical and magical components occupying the same spaces that you can't get rid of.

Constructs don't need sleep, but as a DM, I would rule that they can run down their "battery", so they can't sustain a run speed indefinitely; I would just use the exhaustion rules to simulate the same effect, forcing constructs to slow down to "recharge" after bursts of activity.

BRC
2008-08-21, 03:58 PM
Problems I see with this plan:

I see no reason to think an effigy creature can free up internal space because it doesn't have organs. It may not have a heart, lungs, stomach, etc., but an effigy presumably has important mechanical and magical components occupying the same spaces that you can't get rid of.

Constructs don't need sleep, but as a DM, I would rule that they can run down their "battery", so they can't sustain a run speed indefinitely; I would just use the exhaustion rules to simulate the same effect, forcing constructs to slow down to "recharge" after bursts of activity.
Those are both "presumably" things, and are therefore up to DM interpretation.
EDIT: PS, I wholeharteadly approve of this.

Yakk
2008-08-21, 04:20 PM
If played right, you could generate lots of neat cool with this. But ... don't worry too much about "more power". You already have a really neat plot device idea. It having limitations is better for plot advancement than it being ridiculously powerful. :-)

Calemyr
2008-08-21, 04:30 PM
Thank you. I think what I'm going to suggest to the DM is that my effegies can move at double speed ("hustle") indefinitely, because dragons in general are defined as champion overland fliers. Run speed, however, is stressful for the frame and any fatigue damage that results is in fact lethal damage but otherwise doesn't effect the flight. As an artificer this doesn't create a critical issue because my guy can cast repair X damage spells from dawn to dusk, but it's still enough of an issue to keep it from being abused.

I am going to see if I can't get an aerial variant of the Horseshoes of speed, however.

Calemyr
2008-08-22, 10:13 AM
Actually, I kept reading the rules and found this snippet in the Nonabilities section for constitution:


A creature with no Constitution cannot tire and thus can run indefinitely without tiring (unless the creature’s description says it cannot run).

Combine that with a Staff of Artillery (Dragon's Breath, Force Missiles, Call Lightning Storm, and Fireball) and some trick to emulate a gold dragon's Alternate Form ability (allowing the dragon effigy to take the shape of a warforged or a clockwork mender), and the Hammerhead and Swordfish will be ready for construction.

Sojourn
2008-08-22, 01:33 PM
Hmm... I may be looking at the wrong sourcebook, but this is what I see under "effigy":

'... medium-sized Undead (fire, incorporeal)'
It is not a construct. Thus cannot be constructed, but can be raised by a necromancer in some fashion (or raises it self 'naturally')
'... Eventually the fires of it's own raw hatred literrally immolate the body it has possessed'
It cannot remain intact for long, and requires to infuse it self with another creature before its body burns up. This is a touch attack.
'Incorporeal Subtype'
This raises the question as to how one would go about riding it even if it were to allow you.

Like I said, I may be looking at the wrong book. But I remembered the effigy from 3.5's MM2 (page 89-90), and couldn't find it in 4.0's MM.
Is there a different 'effigy' that I don't know about?

Recaiden
2008-08-22, 01:41 PM
Hmm... I may be looking at the wrong sourcebook, but this is what I see under "effigy":

'... medium-sized Undead (fire, incorporeal)'
It is not a construct. Thus cannot be constructed, but can be raised by a necromancer in some fashion (or raises it self 'naturally')
'... Eventually the fires of it's own raw hatred literrally immolate the body it has possessed'
It cannot remain intact for long, and requires to infuse it self with another creature before its body burns up. This is a touch attack.
'Incorporeal Subtype'
This raises the question as to how one would go about riding it even if it were to allow you.

Like I said, I may be looking at the wrong book. But I remembered the effigy from 3.5's MM2 (page 89-90), and couldn't find it in 4.0's MM.
Is there a different 'effigy' that I don't know about?

The effigy from Complete Arcane is a template that turns a creature into a construct. Basically a robotic copy.

Sojourn
2008-08-22, 07:53 PM
Ah, I see. I didn't know there was another kind.

That's weird... why would they name it the same as another completely different creature?

magellan
2008-08-23, 11:02 AM
Well... you are talking about *these guys* afterall...
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0012.html