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View Full Version : 4E, Gurps Fantasy, or Cthulhu?



Starshade
2008-08-21, 02:23 PM
Im planning to make a roleplay group from scratch, with me as DM, and, what im thinking of, is either:
- Getting the 4E D&D books and use it, along with a campagin for newbies.
- Get Gurps Fantasy(got basic set and space/ultra, but they dont like the idea of scifi).
- Using Call of Cthulhu, i got the newest book, and i was thinking of using a pre made story, something as At the mountain of Madness, Masks of Nyarlathotep, or simmiliar.

What would be gentlest way to start off newbie RPers? And, if i go with 4E, any good adventure or Campaign's premade, who i can start with?

Tengu_temp
2008-08-21, 02:32 PM
GURPS is too focused on miniscule rules for newbie players. CoC on the other hand depends a lot on the atmosphere of horror (and usually ends in the characters dead or insane), so it's also a game for experienced players if you ask me. DND might be your best bet.

Neon Knight
2008-08-21, 02:38 PM
I'll second Tengu's advice, as it is what I would do.

Nerd-o-rama
2008-08-21, 02:41 PM
D&D 4e is by far the most newbie-friendly of those choices, yeah. GURPS gets the job done, but I find it overly complicated (Mutants & Masterminds, with a few modifications to fluff, is just as good a generic system and much simpler rules-wise). I haven't played COC, but I don't think it comes recommended for people who aren't prepared for a very serious and atmospheric game.

Tengu_temp
2008-08-21, 02:42 PM
Be wary of Keep on Shadowfell. It's supposed to be an introductory module, but it involves a very hard and over-levelled encounter that kills even experienced players. Newbies have no chance. You can tone it down, of course, but you'd first need to know it's there.

Fiendish_Dire_Moose
2008-08-21, 02:44 PM
Throwing my hat in for 4e.
Gurps is too bogged down with rules so for n00bs you spend far to much time looking up and relooking up rules.
Call of Cthulu requires experience; which means as you and your group get better, there' no reason to not switch to it.
4e is easy to understand, the rules aren't cluttered, they're easy to find, and I find myself rarely having to look up a rule more than once.

EDIT: Seconding Tengu's advice. Me and my fellow players just got out of it, and it's NIGHTMARISH.

Jayabalard
2008-08-21, 03:03 PM
hmm... unless everyone really likes horror and the Cthullu mythos, that one is totally out. That's a really rough game, even for non-newbies.

For GURPS Fantansy, you'll need to treat this as a framework rather than a complete game, and stick to the basic rules instead of throwing in a bunch of optional ones, at least at the start, which means that the players really only have to learn one mechanic: roll 3d6 under the target number. It definitely could be a good choice if you have people who into RL history, since it's default world (Banestorm) is an alternate earth setting with a quasi-historical background and a pretty well described history. It can also be a good choice for people who have religious objections to playing in a game world filled with "heathens" since it uses real world religions rather than creating it's own mythology.
Megalos and Caithness are solidly Christian
Al-Haz and al-Wazif are solidly Islamic
Cardiel is a bit mixed but primarily Christian
Sahud is a Mish-Mash of eastern religions


D&D has historically been an entry level RPG, and from the look if it, 4e fulfills this more so than any other edition. So it's a great choice if you have players who've never played, and will probably be the fastest to get people into a game with.

My preference would be GURPS (big surpise there) but really, I think that either that or 4e could work out well.

Artanis
2008-08-21, 03:21 PM
You should play GURPSthulu Fourth Edition:smallbiggrin:

Seriously though, both my (admittedly limited) experience with DnD 4e and the testimony of others that I trust tell me that 4e is probably the way to go.

bosssmiley
2008-08-21, 05:04 PM
"Call of Cthulhu"! You need the Lovecraftian goodness in your life. If nothing else it'll be a change of pace from relentless heroism, heroism, heroism. :smallamused:

(I'm just saying that because "CoC" has the best monster damage rating EVER: '1d6 investigators per round' :smallbiggrin:)

Edge of Dreams
2008-08-21, 05:36 PM
D&D 4th Edition is one of the best RPG combat engines I've ever seen, even compared to video games. However, the D&D rules have never and still do not directly encourage roleplaying. You CAN roleplay and have fun and tell great stories with any edition of D&D, but if you care more about the roleplay than the combat, D&D may not be the best.

I have no experience with Call of Cthulu, but if you're looking for something story-oriented I recommend Spirit of the Century or Nobilis. Both are genre-specific roleplaying games that focus heavily on mechanics for resolving non-combat challenges. Both games also use a system of tokens to allow players to force a specific success or failure for the sake of plot, and they encourage players and DM to work together to make a good story, as opposed to being mutual antagonists.

As for Gurps, the system in all it's incarnations is known for being heavily simulationist. If you want a system that lets you determine what will happen based entirely on whether or not it's "realistic" within the setting, Gurps is the way to go. The level of complexity in the rules can be dangerous to new players though in terms of learning time and potential confusion / boredom (calculus for vehichle movement, anyone?)

In short, pick the system that best suits what you AND the players care about most:
-Strategic/tactical combat = D&D
-Story = Nobilis, Spirit of the Century, or similar
-Simulation = GURPS

The 4th edition DMG for D&D also has a nice little section on how to adjust a game to keep different styles of players interested. I'd consider it recommended reading no matter what system you choose.

mikeejimbo
2008-08-21, 05:53 PM
I think GURPS can be OK for newbies as long as you don't play with all the rules at first. It was the first RPG I was introduced to, and I was self-taught.

mcv
2008-08-21, 06:04 PM
While GURPS might not be as streamlined as D&D4, it's very playable for newbies. Just keep in mind that everything is optional, and don't start playing with Powers.

The big disadvantage of GURPS is that there aren't a lot of ready-to-go adventures for it, and no big campaigns at all, as far as I'm aware. You'll have to do all of that yourself. GURPS is definitely more work than D&D4.

Oracle_Hunter
2008-08-21, 06:07 PM
4e, without question.

It is newbie-friendly, it's new so people may have heard of it, and it is newbie DM friendly too. Don't bother with modules - just follow the instructions in the DMG.

GURPS is insane - never spring that on novice RPers, ever.

Call of Cthulhu always ends in tears. Always.

mcv
2008-08-21, 06:08 PM
As for Gurps, the system in all it's incarnations is known for being heavily simulationist. If you want a system that lets you determine what will happen based entirely on whether or not it's "realistic" within the setting, Gurps is the way to go. The level of complexity in the rules can be dangerous to new players though in terms of learning time and potential confusion / boredom (calculus for vehichle movement, anyone?)

The trick there is to not use those rules unless you really want to. In 99% of the cases, you just want to fudge this sort of thing.


The 4th edition DMG for D&D also has a nice little section on how to adjust a game to keep different styles of players interested. I'd consider it recommended reading no matter what system you choose.

I don't have it myself, unfortunately, but I've seen GURPS fanboys call it the best DMG ever. Apparently it's a good buy even if you don't play D&D at all. Or so I've been led to believe.

Moff Chumley
2008-08-21, 06:15 PM
4e, most definitely. Not only is it the most newb friendly, it offers the best all around rpg experience unless you want to be really simulations (GURPS) or really, REALLY gritty (CoC). Also, 4e DMG (and MM)=win.

Knaight
2008-08-21, 06:46 PM
Are these the only options avaliable? Since if free PDFs and such are open I suggest Fudge, for fantasy stuff, and if you want darker fantasy stuff, there is a system sort of like world of darkness which has you matching dice into width(amount of dice matching) and height(number on said dice) for a really cool mechanic, although I don't like some of the other stuff. The name is something along the lines of Nemesis. If they are the only options, then use 4e for highly cinematic stuff, Gurps Fantasy for more realistic stuff, and Cthulu for when your running a dark dismal game.

Tsotha-lanti
2008-08-21, 09:50 PM
GURPS is too focused on miniscule rules for newbie players. CoC on the other hand depends a lot on the atmosphere of horror (and usually ends in the characters dead or insane), so it's also a game for experienced players if you ask me. DND might be your best bet.

Spot on.

CoC is the single hardest game to run or play "right." Everyone, including the players, has to get in the atmosphere. You can not feel horror from a book, film, or the like, unless you let yourself. (I've actually noticed a lot of tension-relieving behavior - joking, chatting, etc. - in my players during CoC sessions, and I always quickly squash or interrupt it.)

skywalker
2008-08-21, 10:36 PM
I would like to voice a dissenting opinion, Call of Cthulhu(albeit the d20 version) was my first RPG experience, and it was awesome. No, I didn't feel like my brain was screwed at the end of it, and I didn't feel scared crapless, but that doesn't mean I was doing it wrong.

Keep in mind that there's no way to play CofC "right," just like there's no way to play D&D right.

In my opinion, GURPS is not the system to pick for fantasy(4th edition is right there and so much easier), so I'd say pick between D&D or CofC.

Whatever you think is fun is what you should go with. I'd pick up whatever's cheapest :smallbiggrin:

Lastly, Masks of Nyarlathotep absolutely kills people dead, no doubt. When a CofC campaign is notable for that, then take heed.

ghost_warlock
2008-08-21, 10:58 PM
Depending on the age range of your newbie players, perhaps this (http://www222.pair.com/sjohn/pokethulhu.htm) would be more what you're looking for.

:smalltongue:

Lycan 01
2008-08-22, 01:04 AM
I have managed to bring together several of my friends and play both DnD 4e and CoC 6e. Our opinion?


Call of Cthulhu is better. Not just for learning to play an RPG, but for just playing an RPG. Lemme break it down for you...


-CoC has simpler character creation. Your stats aren't on a point buy system like DnD. You just roll some dice, and BAM! You have your dude/dudett. Multiply and divide a few stats for Sanity, HP, and Skill Points, and then buy whatever skills you want. Ta-da! You're done...
-CoC has simpler skills and skill rolls. Want to be good with a handgun? Put points in handgun so you're level 85. Want to shoot something? Roll the d100. Equal to or less than your skill level is a success. Higher is a loss. Its really simple. Makes DMing a breeze, since you don't have to make up DCs and stuff...
-CoC doesn't have classes, par se. Just occupations. All this does is tell you what skills you get to put extra points into, and allows for good Role Playing material.
-The Sanity System ROCKS!!! Here's an example... The party of investigators were checking out a dead corpse, when suddenly it stood up and ran screeching towards them. Two of them were unfazed, drew their guns, and opened fire. The other two failed their sanity rolls. I made one stand in a catatonic state, while the other curled up in the fetal position and cried. It adds more to the game. You can be a macho tough guy with a ton of HP and a tommy gun in each hand, but the sight of something really screwed up can still break the guy's mind like a piece of china falling from a skyscraper. :smallbiggrin:



Okay, I can think of plenty of other things, but its kinda pointless to keep ranting. Lemme just say this:

I cannot, in good conscionce, suggest DnD 4e over the CoC 6e. You'll understand CoC and enjoy it much more and much faster than DnD 4e.

BUT make sure you get the Chaosium CoC, not the D20. I play the Chaosium one, of course... I prefer the d100 system over the d20 system, having played and DMed both of them.

Behold_the_Void
2008-08-22, 02:07 AM
Regarding CoC, which I don't think anybody's really done more than touch upon, is it's really group-dependent. It depends on the group and how they'll respond to it. I, for example, know a group that was playing a Modern game for awhile and when fishmen showed up they immediately committed essentially in-game suicide because they knew there was no hope for them.

CoC as I understand it is highly lethal and doesn't have a lot in the way of heroics or general success. It really depends if that's what your group wants or not, personally as it's been explained me, I can safely rate CoC as one of my top 10 lists of RPGs I never want to play.

And while I'm harping on feel, it seems like GURPS also seems to have a certain kind of player requirement. As a gamer and game designer, I hate games that get bogged down in the minutiae and feel rules should be made as simple as possible while still achieving their purpose. That being said I know several gamers who really genuinely ENJOY the severe complexity. So again, knowing your group is pretty key. If they like stuff like that, GURPS may be the way to go.

Which brings us to 4e which I personally feel is a rather well-designed game system. What 4e does is heroic fantasy, and so long as you're a DM that can understand that the rules are a way to drive the plot and not the be-all and end-all (a way of thinking that, as I understand it, is more appropriate for a GURPS player) and are willing to bend or even break them when required, it works quite well. 4e rules are very much an abstraction to provide you mechanics to represent things that need the mechanics, but still allows for plenty of creativity in the way of description and the like. It is also pretty simple and newbie friendly, something I heartily endorse in any system, and if you're going for swords and sorcery, it definitely seems your best bet. I am admittedly biased though.

Sebastian
2008-08-22, 03:30 AM
For total newbies 4e is the best choice. Even to the risk to be insulting I think 4e is essentially "D&D for dummies", at its basic level it works like a miniature game, every character have his list of powers and skills and what-not, and inexperienced players have a clear and well definite idea of what exactly his characters can do but with they proceding in the game they'll start to see that there are other things they can do both covered by the rules or made up on the fly by the GM, after this the concept of "roleplaying" is just one step ahead.

IMHO, of course.

Viruzzo
2008-08-22, 03:41 AM
CoC is a great game, but really not good for newbies:
- high mortality rate: really bad for beginners, most will not notice the immediate danger and get killed a lot and will probably be displeased by the loss of their PC. Mask of Nyarlathotep (unmodified) would probably TPK them in every zone.
- focus on investigation: many beginners will far better off with a combat-centered game (i.e. D&D).
- needs atmosphere and roleplaying: that is probably the greatest problem with newbies, unless they're naturally good at it and are Lovecraft fans.

So CoC is a great game for mature and experienced players that like that style, but not really suited for starters.
Personally not liking GURPS, I suggest 4e.

WalkingTarget
2008-08-22, 12:47 PM
CoC not for newbies?

But... but... that was my first game ever and was my introduction to Lovecraft.

On the contrary, having a very lethal system might (depending on the group dynamics, of course) be beneficial for starting players. It could instill a sense of caution and thoughtfulness into all of their future gaming.

In non-one-shot games I've played in I have never lost a character. Not even in games where resurrection is "easy".

Inhuman Bot
2008-08-22, 12:52 PM
Well, I like CoC, but I would suggest seeing whatyour players wanted. Just so you don't follow our advice to play 4e, only to discover your players wanted a horrer themed game, to your suprise. People do that sort of thing.

Oracle_Hunter
2008-08-22, 12:57 PM
Well, I like CoC, but I would suggest seeing whatyour players wanted. Just so you don't follow our advice to play 4e, only to discover your players wanted a horrer themed game, to your suprise. People do that sort of thing.

QFT.

I think the main point here is that 4e will provide the widest variety of gaming experiences while also being the easiest system. GURPS is broader, but the rules can be positively byzantine. CoC offers a very narrow type of gaming experience, but the rules are easy to use.

So, for a generic novice group, 4e is the safest choice.

Lycan 01
2008-08-22, 02:05 PM
Oh, one bit of interesting info...


With DnD, you can play with just the PHB, but for its best to get the other books. This hurts the pocketbook a bit, though...

CoC is just one book, priced about the same as the PHB. but it comes with everything you need: all the rules, pre-made characters, and my personal favorite... 4 newbie-friendly scenarios already written up for you in the back of the book.

I ran my group through the first story in the book, and they caught on real fast. Not too deadly, plenty of scares, and enough suspense to keep them on their toes. This was with four players; two had played a few games of DnD with me, one had played 3.5e once, and the other had never played an RPG before. They loved it!

Second game we played was another storyline from the book. This time, 6 players. The four from the week before, one guy who'd played DnD 4e once and hated it, and one girl who'd never played an RPG before. Once again, they all loved it!

CoC may have a high mortality rate, but my players seem die faster in DnD 4e... A lot faster... :smallconfused:

Starshade
2008-08-24, 07:11 AM
Well, I like CoC, but I would suggest seeing whatyour players wanted. Just so you don't follow our advice to play 4e, only to discover your players wanted a horrer themed game, to your suprise. People do that sort of thing.

Its me who would like to do something like CoC or Vampire, they is novices who dont know a clue about RPing, so, its maybe simpler to use 4E i think, to teach them the basics in some simple hack&slash reminding of the PC games they usually play, before BBQing them with elder gods. :smallbiggrin:

Theodoric
2008-08-24, 07:54 AM
Anyone care for Warhammer Fantasy? It's more detailed and loose than D&D, and has a darker tone. Ofcourse, it is somewhat too loose and vague at times. It's also completely restricted to D10's (And, well, D100's).

Artanis
2008-08-24, 12:38 PM
I glanced through WarHammer Fantasy (though it might've been an older edition), and decided it was a bit too dark. The magic system particularly turned me off, because rather than a gameplay mechanic, it struck me as "do you want to wind up A) horribly mutated, B) insane, or C) all of the above?"

Morty
2008-08-24, 12:40 PM
I glanced through WarHammer Fantasy (though it might've been an older edition), and decided it was a bit too dark. The magic system particularly turned me off, because rather than a gameplay mechanic, it struck me as "do you want to wind up A) horribly mutated, B) insane, or C) all of the above?"

Amazing as it might sound, that what draws many people, myself included, to this system. Magic in WFRPG is Serious Business rather than simply a tool to achieve what you want like in D&D. And success is surviving a skrimish against greenskins rather than overthrowing a cliched evil overlord.

shadowdemon_lord
2008-08-24, 02:27 PM
I'd have to throw in my lot with the 4E D&D crowd. My experience with GURPS was that it's a good system, and for the imaginative experienced player it'll let you build almost any character you want. But for newbies, it can be a bit complicated. Also, the game is extremely roleplay intensive, which can be more challenging for noobie rpers. D&D is a system that seems to be about as role playing intensive or unintensive as you make it, it has a heroic feel to it, and an excellent combat engine.

Call of Cthulu of course is a whole 'nother boat from either of these games. Your players will lose characters at a rate second only to Paranoia, but sans the six pack of clones.

Moose Fisher
2008-08-24, 02:43 PM
Call of Cthulhu is a good ruleset and you only need one book. I haven't done much with it, but changes here and there will make it less lethal. While the Cthulhu stuff is interesting, you can shift it to a different threat.

If you want your games to be more fantasy/heroic, go with D&D. Combat is very tactical and will take up time (45minutes to an hour), but it is where the 4e rules shine.