Fight a Boss For 18 Hours! Welcome to FFXI!

[Ranis]

Apparently a guild in Final Fantasy XI fought a boss for 18 hours straight-and gave up because people were getting ill and passing out.

Square Enix is awesome. Just...awesome.

http://www.gamepolitics.com/2008/08/21/gamers-fight-mmo-boss-18-hours-and-fail

[Neon Knight]

...

That's the saddest and funniest news I've read all day.

[Tengu_temp]

Another reason why FF XI aspires to the How To Not Make An MMO title for me.

And aspires to it only because there's another MMO which does so too. It's not to figure out which one I mean if you know me.

[Copacetic]

And the best part is in the article, it said the guild leader ended it "so it didn't turn into a horrible news story about how video games ruin lives." EPIC FAIL!

[LordVader]

http://lizrevision.com/wp-content/uploads/royal-fail.jpg

For the love of God, eighteen hours? Jesus, how can you do that? It's like the final battle in the South Park WoW episode, but for real...:smalleek:

[SilverSheriff]

I laughed so hard. :biggrin:

I'm gonna have to see how hard this is by playing myself, except I'm not gonna forget to stock-pile food before hand.

[Ranis]

I think the funniest part of it all is that they could have kept going. They were apparently good enough to actually go longer than 18 hours.

MMO Developer's Guide for Dummies: Chapter 1: If you make it, the players will want to kill it. Yes, that badly.

[Mirrinus]

As a former player of Final Fantasy XI, I must say that that's really nothing. About two or three years back, one large linkshell group spent well over 24 hours fighting Absolute Virtue, FFXI's original "unbeatable" boss (before it was somewhat nerfed).

So, among the fan community anyway, this isn't anything new or amazing. FFXI already has way too many examples of That One Boss (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ThatOneBossRPGExamples). Thankfully, that's not all there is to the game.

[Zeful]

Part of me wants to play this game now. Another part of me points out that this probably would get me fired.

Stupid work, keeping me away from mindless grind for hours on end.

[Fan]

Nah, they got nothin' wussies clockin out after only 18 hours. *heh, I haven't stoppe in two days, I'm STILL playing it right now, with my tarutaru black mage, with summouner as his sub job*

[TheThan]

Ahhh Final Fantasy XI the only game in the world (at least that I know of at least), that makes you pay to play and then punishes you relentlessly for playing it.

[mangosta71]

My friends that got me hooked on WoW convinced to try FFXI. Worst UI I've ever seen.

[Jade Falcon]

Eighteen hours? I would´ve left my computer after two hours to seek out the developers of this game and plant my fist in their faces :smallsmile:

[Jibar]

I read about this a while ago.
I'll say the same thing I said then:
Final. Fantasy.
Why is anyone surprised?

[Vonriel]

And I'll say this: There is absolutely no reason for people to become ill while playing FFXI. In the fights, you can switch out parties of six (I believe it is, just going on what I heard here) at a time in order to rotate people around and keep the fight going. So, the only way someone could've gotten ill is if they had said "No! Let me keep going! I want to kill this guy!" instead of being intelligent and saying "Yeah, guys, I can't continue, find someone to replace me." Unless it's a butchered quote, which it very well could be, I think this is more player stupidity than bad design.

At least the next time they know to have six hour nap breaks set up for their players...

Edit: Hmm, the comments on the article brought up an interesting point: Can someone who plays FFXI confirm/deny that tanks can't be switched out like other roles can?

[Khanderas]

I read about this a while ago.
I'll say the same thing I said then:
Final. Fantasy.
Why is anyone surprised?
Amen, Ever since Final Fantasy 6 (espers, Terra and Kefka) there have been optional ultimate bosses.


My friends that got me hooked on WoW convinced to try FFXI. Worst UI I've ever seen.
I'm one of those types who don't care much about graphics. But that UI was so worthless. And while you can use a "flee" command, the monster still follows you endlessly (I was fleeing for 10 minutes just to see if it ever drops off you, it doesn't). Zoning out ? Cant do that while in battle !
After grinding literary bugs for 3-4 hours (must have been more) I thought it was time to buy me a potion. You know the first item you see in any Final Fantasy game, to have if things got problematic.
I didnt have 5% of the money needed (after selling all my loot) to buy a freaking potion ! I realised I was in for alot of the most boring grind I have ever seen in any MMO, for the chance in a year or so to be able to do something intresting. :(

I opened up a ticked, chewed a GM out, cancelled the game and never looked back. Being so old in the game as FFonline is, they should have made many things much better.

[Ranis]

Amen, Ever since Final Fantasy 6 (espers, Terra and Kefka) there have been optional ultimate bosses.

Actually, Final Fantasy III, the original Japan-only release, was the first to have an optional "ultimate" boss.

[Tirian]

And I'll say this: There is absolutely no reason for people to become ill while playing FFXI.

In fact, we only seem to have a secondhand description of a forum post as evidence that players were passing out and getting physically ill. Even if that were true, the same sort of evidence could be used to suggest that we shouldn't sell beer by the case.

I also totally blame the player's sense of planning and their physical environment. If you get out of the chair to stretch once an hour and eat real food, it isn't unworldly to spend upwards of 36 hours in front of a computer and only be really tired at the end. If you're under bright fluorescent lights and mainlining "energy drinks" like problem kids in Asian internet cafes allegedly do, not so much.

And I don't know anything about FFXI's UI, but I will say that nigh-impossible quests are part of the lore of MMO's. These guys knew that they would have become part of FFXI's mythology if they had brought down the Pandemonium Warden, and a little queasiness and an ocean of elixirs is a small price to pay for that. Either they or a different team are certainly planning to try again, and when they do succeed they will be grateful that the fight took 24 hours instead of 3.

[Quincunx]

Good gods, it only took an hour and a half (and five years since the mob was introduced) (and the last remaining spawn of that mob, on the only server which hadn't tried and failed) to bring down EQ's unkillable mob. This only reinforces my opinion that FFXI is the king of grinds, no matter how hard Vanguard may try to catch up.

[Fri]

They need to datadrain it.

But I can see the reason behind this. It's not for grinding, guys. It's for the legendary status.

Like, if you can kill this it's the equivalent of finishing an epic quest and killing an ancient dragon in dnd or something.

It's hard to make an epic quest in an mmorpg. Less than this, everybody can finish the quest or something.

But even I can think something better than this.

[Setra]

They need to datadrain it.
This

Seriously though, getting ill after only 18 hours? The average person is up 16 hours a day, even if they were staying up 24 hours straight I don't see someone getting ill over it.

I've stayed up over 48 hours several times before without getting ill.

[Dausuul]

I didn't see the second half of the thread title, and thought it was about Neverwinter Nights 2...

[Tengu_temp]

I read about this a while ago.
I'll say the same thing I said then:
Final. Fantasy.
Why is anyone surprised?

The longest boss battles I had in single-player FF games were in FF8, and none of them laster longer than an hour. Including the optional absurdly powerful bosses. If you have a valid point there, I fail to see it.

[Jibar]

The longest boss battles I had in single-player FF games were in FF8, and none of them laster longer than an hour. Including the optional absurdly powerful bosses. If you have a valid point there, I fail to see it.

It was less saying that they have battles lasting hours long, but more lengthening battles for no real reason.
So many unskippable cutscenes...

[Tengu_temp]

Attacks like Supernova are the minority. Most FF characters/enemies have attacks comparable in length to those of other jRPGs.

Also, for some reason I doubt if those players fought this boss for 18 hours due to its lengthy attack animations.

[Dallas-Dakota]

This insn't among video games.
Just FF who still do the mistake of (accidentally) making undefeatable bosses.

Trust me, you make it, they will try and kill it, or spend all of their time on it till they get physically ill....

Also, 18 hours and the same boss? Seems rather boring.....

But the 18 hour term is nothing, I have once gamed for 27 hours straight, only pee breaks.

[Fri]

Tengu's post make me nostalgic. I remember having long final battles in old school console rpgs because I often under leveled my characters.

Like, Lunar 2. I spent maybe two hours to fight the last bost, because I was very under leveled. I almost can't beat that game, because I can't go back to buy resources.

[factotum]

Is it sadder that they couldn't kill him, or that it took them EIGHTEEN HOURS to decide they weren't going to be able to? I mean, I don't have a problem with an eighteen hour gaming session so long as you're doing something interesting, but just constantly trying to kill the same boss??

[Vonriel]

In fact, we only seem to have a secondhand description of a forum post as evidence that players were passing out and getting physically ill. Even if that were true, the same sort of evidence could be used to suggest that we shouldn't sell beer by the case.

This isn't the first time I heard this story (Woody Hearn of GU Comics did a sort-of comic about this about a week ago) and in both instances, there was a quote from the leader of the linkshell saying that people were getting physically ill. I see no reason for him to lie, thus it comes down to player stupidity.

[Tirian]

This isn't the first time I heard this story (Woody Hearn of GU Comics did a sort-of comic about this about a week ago) and in both instances, there was a quote from the leader of the linkshell saying that people were getting physically ill. I see no reason for him to lie, thus it comes down to player stupidity.

I don't need to see the original forum post; I will grant you that he did say this. And, while "lying" is a stretch, I can easily see why he would exaggerate, and even moreso I can see why his clanmates would exaggerate their conditions when discussing whether they should bail.

Put yourself in the place of one of these players. You're a 1337 member of the ultra power guild, and you and your mates have been spending the past eighteen hours fighting a BBEG. And you don't feel like doing it any more, either because it's colossally boring or because you all didn't plan on the fight going over six hours and you saw no need to physically prepare for such a marathon session or because you do happen to be an halfwit who has done nothing but eat Cheetos and drink Mountain Dew for the past eighteen hours and your stomach is gearing up for a random encounter with the Porcelain Warden if you get my drift. Be that as it may, you need an epic-level excuse to justify letting your mates down while trying to retain some semblance of alpha-maleness. So "I'm sleepy" becomes "I'm about to pass out", tummyaches become full-fledged nausea, and so on. Also, of course, the excuse doesn't work the first time because most of the people don't want to throw all this time down the sink, so the players who want out will elevate their concerns; so by the time a majority agree to throw in the towel, a third of the clan is reportedly on their way to the hospital.

Now, you're the leader of the clan, going back to the forums to report that you didn't kill the Pandemonium Warden. You were styling yourself as the next Rainz and it turns out that you're only the next Leeroy Jenkins. The forum is going to laugh itself silly about how you're the 1337 d00dz who can't go eighteen hours without a nap. So, again, you're going to inflate reports of exhaustion and nausea to people literally passing out and becoming ill and wrap it up in some .hack-esque accusation that Squenix unleashed a disease on you. Without proof that such medical emergencies took place, I'm calling shenanigans and reducing his complaints to acute discomfort.

[tsuuga]

I'm one of those types who don't care much about graphics. But that UI was so worthless. And while you can use a "flee" command, the monster still follows you endlessly (I was fleeing for 10 minutes just to see if it ever drops off you, it doesn't). Imagine their gall, making you look at the graphics. And yes, monsters do
give up on chasing you're out of their sensory range. Some monsters can smell you; you can use deodorize or run across water to break your trail.

Zoning out ? Cant do that while in battle !Not even close to true.

And, yeah, I don't see the problem. An MMO has a ridiculously difficult optional boss. It's about bragging rights. And, unfortunately(?), FFXI has stupid-dedicated players, and it takes something this ridiculous to separate the Ultra-men from the just really-manly men.

And, one other thing... as I understand it, this battle is on a sealed battlefield that allows you to bring one alliance of 18 people. Rotation is, unfortunately, not really an option.

[mangosta71]

Thing is, a fight with a BBEG doesn't have to take 3 days to be epic. I'm thinking of WoW, in which the longest boss fights take less than half an hour. Well, the ones I've seen, at least. My guild hasn't started in Sunwell because we just got our first Illidan kill a couple weeks ago. Even a short fight can have enough stuff going on to make it feel like an epic battle.

[Setra]

Thing is, a fight with a BBEG doesn't have to take 3 days to be epic. I'm thinking of WoW, in which the longest boss fights take less than half an hour. Well, the ones I've seen, at least. My guild hasn't started in Sunwell because we just got our first Illidan kill a couple weeks ago. Even a short fight can have enough stuff going on to make it feel like an epic battle.
This is true

The thing is Square has said there is a way to beat the boss in 30 minutes, or so I heard anyways. You can't "think like an MMO player" you have to "think like a Final Fantasy fan"

I'm guessing it requires a certain item to beat or something.

[ocato]

Throw potions at him, duh. I mean, isn't that the solution to most random demon lord monster kings? Do something so outrageously stupid that it somehow wins in a very guide-dangit (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/GuideDangIt) sort of way.

My response to this as well is "man, should I try this game?" My answer is no because my internet is so lousy and it's so many expansions in that even if I could play it regularly, I'd probably lose interest in the grind before I got to anything cool.

[mangosta71]

This is true

The thing is Square has said there is a way to beat the boss in 30 minutes, or so I heard anyways. You can't "think like an MMO player" you have to "think like a Final Fantasy fan"

I'm guessing it requires a certain item to beat or something.

Have all 18 people in your group spam Knights of the Round?

Wait, that wouldn't work. One round of that would take over an hour...

[tyckspoon]

Actually, Final Fantasy III, the original Japan-only release, was the first to have an optional "ultimate" boss.

Warmech says NUKE. Also, unless I'm forgetting something in III (I probably am, it's been awhile) V was actually the first one to have extra optional bosses that existed only to give you a bigger challenge to fight- Omega and Shinryu. III's extra dungeon/bosses rewarded you with the ultimate weapons and the game's best jobs, like the extra boss fights in IV.

[Arameus]

Amen, Ever since Final Fantasy 6 (espers, Terra and Kefka) there have been optional ultimate bosses.

Emerald Weapon: Eight minutes.
Ruby Weapon: 9 minutes.
Omega (VIII): 15 minutes.
Yiazmat: < 1 hour if you plan.
Pandemonium Warden: > 18 hours?

See some kind of discrepancy there? Yiazmat is probably the longest battle in a standard FF, having 50,112,254 HP, at least in my experience, and I've played them all. But having enemies like Square puts in XI is simply unreal. I cannot even guess at their motivation. Maybe they just want an unbeatable enemy, to cheaply inject an 'epic' feel to their game, which lacks any. Maybe they're just catering to the hardest of the hardcore, giving them something to entitle them to an absolutely colossal e-peen. Or, as I believe, maybe they use these to test how gullible and stupid your average FF fanboy is and accordingly put a carefully calculated absolute minimum of effort into their next main-canon game.

Tetsuya Nomura: "Man, this whole 'making a game' thing is hard... Why the hell do they think I can do anything more than draw? Can't we hire on some great new talent or find some incredible new innovations to plug in?"
Stooge: "Sir, the numbers just came in! They fought it for Eighteen hours! Some of them even became ill and passed out! It's incredible!"
Nomura: ".... Well then, 'Cloud-with-Tits' it is!" *showers self in money*

[JadedDM]

Nomura didn't work on FF11. But that aside, I can tell you SE's motivation here. The same motivation behind everything they do in this game--to create a community.

The way to beat this boss is to get some alliances together and then swap out parties during the fight. When one group starts to get tired, they withdraw and another swoops in to take their place. Thus, only be a large group of people working together can the battle be won.

SE didn't count on its more stupid members. A dangerous mistake to make, I know...

[shadow_archmagi]

Nomura didn't work on FF11. But that aside, I can tell you SE's motivation here. The same motivation behind everything they do in this game--to create a community.

The way to beat this boss is to get some alliances together and then swap out parties during the fight. When one group starts to get tired, they withdraw and another swoops in to take their place. Thus, only be a large group of people working together can the battle be won.

SE didn't count on its more stupid members. A dangerous mistake to make, I know...

I find the existence of a 24 hour boss (apparently thats what the 18 hour group thought it would take, and they'd know better than anyone) incredible. The idea that someone might kill it is also epic.

I now really, really want someone to stockpile energy drinks and pre-made rations so they can devote the necessary 24 hours to beating said boss.

[Mirrinus]

I wouldn't be surprised if there's some trick to the fight that would make it a lot easier. Such is the case with a LOT of bosses in FFXI, even Absolute Virtue (supposedly). Many of the game's end-game bonus bosses (Kirin, Vrtra, Aspidochelone, etc.) took forever to beat the first time around, but players eventually adapt and figure out ways to make it go a lot faster.

Keep in mind, though, that stuff like this particular boss and Absolute Virtue are exceptions rather than rules. Most boss fights in FFXI are timed anyway, usually limited to 30 minutes. And many of those that aren't fought in timed battlefields will severely punish you for taking more than 1 hour to defeat it.

[mangosta71]

The way to beat this boss is to get some alliances together and then swap out parties during the fight. When one group starts to get tired, they withdraw and another swoops in to take their place. Thus, only be a large group of people working together can the battle be won.

So, group A goes in and does half or three-quarters of the work, then they get exhausted and group B moves in, finishes the boss off, and takes all the loot. That doesn't suck for the people in group A.

[Mirrinus]

So, group A goes in and does half or three-quarters of the work, then they get exhausted and group B moves in, finishes the boss off, and takes all the loot. That doesn't suck for the people in group A.

You're not familiar with looting rules for online communities, are you?

No linkshell would be stupid enough to not have set looting rules beforehand. Any decent HNM linkshell would make sure to rotate in only linkshell members into the second alliance. Looting rights are given by the quartermaster system, controlled by the alliance leader, one whom the linkshell trusts (usually the linkshell leader himself). HNM linkshells have very strict rules for deciding who gets what, or how money rewards are divided up.

Honestly now, some people need to stop complaining about games they don't play (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ptitlexxpmjrh25rbg?from=Main.ComplainingAboutShows YouDontWatch).

[Vonriel]

Honestly now, some people need to stop complaining about games they don't play (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ptitlexxpmjrh25rbg?from=Main.ComplainingAboutShows YouDontWatch).

I think this can be applied to a couple walls of text here, as well. Don't bash people you don't know. :smallannoyed:

[Mirrinus]

I think this can be applied to a couple walls of text here, as well. Don't bash people you don't know. :smallannoyed:

Sadly, such advice isn't very applicable to the internet, unless I take it to mean no one should criticize what anyone else says...which would be rather ironic, would it not? :smallwink:

[Vonriel]

Or you could take it to mean what you know it means, and don't bash people you haven't talked to online, such as this linkshell. :smallyuk:

[Arameus]

I know Nomura didn't work on XI. Never indicated otherwise.

But that's because FFXI isn't a game, so there's no reason to use someone they (inexplicably) consider talented to work on it. Comparing FFXI to videogames is like comparing differential calculus to Othello. (The game or the play. Either are sufficiently different, especially since there are no blacks in FFXI)

FFXI is like some kind of parody of MMO's, with all of their flaws wildly exaggerated and none of their successes even flirted with. My brother plays it religiously; I weep for his precious lost time.

[Setra]

FFXI is like some kind of parody of MMO's, with all of their flaws wildly exaggerated and none of their successes even flirted with. My brother plays it religiously; I weep for his precious lost time.
If he has fun who are you to call it wasted time? :smallannoyed:

I weep for your wasted time being a jerk to people who like the game.

[Mirrinus]

Or you could take it to mean what you know it means, and don't bash people you haven't talked to online, such as this linkshell. :smallyuk:

What linkshell are you assuming I'm bashing? My comment was against someone who does not seem to have experience with FFXI endgame making an incorrect statement about how endgame linkshells worked. I'm not saying anything against any group playing FFXI; on the contrary, I am impressed with their efforts. I can only assume you read my post out of context and believed me to be making a derogatory remark against a particular linkshell, rather than the hypothetical situation that the previous poster postulated. It seems you greatly misunderstand and misrepresent me, to the point of throwing such slanders about me without even knowing who I am...hence my comment on the irony.

Oh, and to your earlier question: tanks can be switched out just like any other character, technically, but the hard part is making sure that you're not switching out the person with the most enmity against the enemy, as that character will continue to be the boss's current target even when not part of the alliance currently fighting it. However, given the likelyhood that tanks would die during any challenging HNM fight, the alliance should be able to use such occurances as opportunities to switch tanks out, and let them be raised by a White Mage outside the alliance. There are still other difficulties to consider, such as re-establishing enmity with a new tank. So, in short, tanks can be switched out, but it'd generally be harder to do so than with other characters. Major damage dealers, such as Black Mages, would probably be switched out much more often, and with greater ease.

[Swok]

I know Nomura didn't work on XI. Never indicated otherwise.

But that's because FFXI isn't a game, so there's no reason to use someone they (inexplicably) consider talented to work on it. Comparing FFXI to videogames is like comparing differential calculus to Othello. (The game or the play. Either are sufficiently different, especially since there are no blacks in FFXI)

FFXI is like some kind of parody of MMO's, with all of their flaws wildly exaggerated and none of their successes even flirted with. My brother plays it religiously; I weep for his precious lost time.

Alright, I didn't particularly like FFXI all that much when it tried it, it completely failed to impress me, to the point where I usually ignore it's existence because it was so unimpressive. I still don't see the need to hate it in such a way as this. I mean, seriously, did FFXI horribly wrong you in some deeply personal way?

[Leliel]

They need to datadrain it.


Aura: Kite!!! We need your help!!! I'm a goddess, and I still can't beat this stupid boss!

Still...Wow.

[McMurphy]

I laughed so hard. :biggrin:

I'm gonna have to see how hard this is by playing myself, except I'm not gonna forget to stock-pile food before hand.This signature sucks, pardon me. It's annoying.

[Arameus]

If he has fun who are you to call it wasted time? :smallannoyed:

I weep for your wasted time being a jerk to people who like the game.

So I get called a jerk for denigrating a video game, an abstract mass of servers and programming devoid of sentience or feeling? If such an affront makes me a jerk, what are you? A sociopath? A demon?

Well, I think you meant more my brother than the game. But that's the amazing thing, though; he doesn't seem to have any fun, at all, by his very admission! And he's still addicted to it. He once started playing WoW for just a little bit, and I asked him how he thought they stacked up. His exact reply was, "I'm really impressed. It's actually fun!" Which I laughed at. Then he inexplicably started playing FFXI again a few weeks later, after having gone on about how much better WoW was in every way. Still can't get my head around that one. He never mentions any aspect of the game in a positive light, even will playing, and will generally only make statements about how needlessly complex and tedious every aspect of the game is, form the crafting to the leveling to just getting around and navigating the menus.

And yet every night he's on 'til the wee hours. For someone who can hardly make his car note, he sure seems to deftly line Square's pockets. It's not that I don't enjoy the game; if I complained about every single thing I thought was a waste of time I'd run out of air and die, as would anyone, but the thing that bugs me so badly is that he openly dislikes the game as well. He's just addicted to it, period.

Aside from that, though, FFXI really is a terrible game just due to how few things it pulls of well. The UI, the server unreliability, the community (for the most part), the broken classes, the grinding that stretches even MMO standards of acceptability, and the thousands of ways SE just forces so much dead time and effort into even the most mundane tasks. And naked catgirls are really a new low for fanservice as far as FF goes. The economy on all servers are completely broken due to both developer incompetence and their inability to combat gilsellers, hallmarks of poorly-run MMO's.

Some things are just unreasonable even when accepted as long-term goals; I'll take getting Lu Shang's Rod for example. Fishing is so tedious and repetitive that actual live fisherman are almost identical to the fishing bots due to the sheer inactivity and repetition required of the skill. Just ask one sometime how often they get reported for botting. And Lu Shang's takes an obscene amount of time to get, even if you literally do nothing in the game but fish.

Then there's how long it takes to actually set up anything meaningful. Parties are always in short supply (at least on Diabolos), leading to potentially hours of just sitting around waitin to actually play, and then leveling is no less tedious, requiring the most bare-bones 'pull, wax, rest, rinse&repeat' gameplay for very little reward. Most people refer to the actual meat of the games, the storyline missions and quests, with open dislike, accepting them only as necessary obstacles to open up new ways to grind. Setting up a team to do Promyvions or any other such large-scale mission takes an absurd amount of time, and even then failure is almost certain for all but the most elite parties due to how broken all the bosses in the game are, sucking up hours upon hours to fail to accomplish something you really didn't want to do in the first place.

And then there's just the fact that so many of the game's general concepts are very poorly explained. For one of the biggest examples, try starting a dialog about just what exactly affects success or failure in crafting. You'd think they were debating Superstring theory.

And you know what the funniest part is? I never played this game except fleetingly a long time ago. Got fighter to 20 and quit that pile. All of the above complaints, aside from the most general, are not my own but straight from the mouth of my brother, who ostensibly finds some reason to play it every night. This game is the epitome of why people say MMO's are like second jobs, not games. Not once has he ever felt compelled to share any thought on what he felt was enjoyable about FFXI. So don't flame me for downgrading his passion; if anything, it much more resembles commiseration than anything.

Of course, it's not as though my criticisms or anyone else's should or could actually stop you from enjoying the game. You're the players. You play it. You know whether you like it or not. That's the end of it. So rather than treat with suspicion and contempt someone who vocalized their dislike of the game in a thread created to bash the game, why don't you boot up your Mithra and chase that next weapon skill we both know you've been wanting so badly? It's not my business how you spend your time or paycheck, so don't let me rain on your parade if you are indeed having a great time marching in it. This is precious time in which you could be farming silk thread! There's a Kirin's Osode out there with your name on it! Doesn't your scalp just feel barren without a Maat's Cap? Thought so.

But if you were considering taking up FFXI, however, I think its more than fair that you know that there are indeed people who do not enjoy this game. And that they have many, many great reasons for that. So rather than taunting and flaming someone to silence their dissent, maybe consider letting it go and moving on?

Or maybe you've been had. Somehow, you might have missed that my previous post was a painfully obvious hyperbole, and that I am only mildly disappointed with it at worst. Maybe I simply took offense at how quick people are to rudely undermine dissenting opinion. Maybe the fact that FFXI has so many glaring flaws that even a principally secondhand observer with no actual opinion can so categorically rebuke the game should be cause for concern for anyone considering shelling out a monthly fee. Do you think so? I do.

By the way: 'Galkan Sausage!' Tee-hee-hee! :smallbiggrin:

[Inhuman Bot]

Thing is, a fight with a BBEG doesn't have to take 3 days to be epic. I'm thinking of WoW, in which the longest boss fights take less than half an hour. Well, the ones I've seen, at least. My guild hasn't started in Sunwell because we just got our first Illidan kill a couple weeks ago. Even a short fight can have enough stuff going on to make it feel like an epic battle.

Yeah, I agree. Long battles are the opposet of epic, to me. Beacuse they take so long, all the "OMG SO EPIC" is replaced by "Is anyone else bored yet?" "Oh gods yes" "Please kill me"

[mangosta71]

You're not familiar with looting rules for online communities, are you?

No, I'm not familiar with the (I'll assume as horrifically clunky as the rest of the game) looting system of FFXI. The only MMO I've played seriously is WoW, in which such measures are completely unnecessary because the dungeons and boss fights are designed somewhat intelligently. So I tend to assume that they have similar rules - the group that kills the mob gets the stuff. I freely admit that my statement was uninformed.

Anyhoo, 24+ hours for one fight? That's something that an entire weekend would have to be dedicated to. Or, I could hop onto WoW, spend about 8 hours total to clear both BT and Hyjal (which wouldn't be constant combat, so it can be broken up into smaller increments of time, even over the course of multiple days!), and walk out with tons of awesome loot. Guess which feels more like a game to me.

[Setra]

So I get called a jerk for denigrating a video game, an abstract mass of servers and programming devoid of sentience or feeling? If such an affront makes me a jerk, what are you? A sociopath? A demon?
You're insulting the PEOPLE who PLAY it.

I took heavy offense at the implication LIKING A GAME meant I was an idiot wasting my time.

You sir, are a jerk. And I am trying to refrain from using any insult too personal, since this forum is generally reserved for NICE people. By this I am not going to insinuate you are not a nice person overall (even if I do find you a jerk) because I do not know you... but I will say I am not nice when I start insulting people.

Edit: No matter the game I find it horribly annoying to say anyone has ever wasted his time playing it. If someone finds some sort of enjoyment in E.T. I won't say his time was wasted, even if I dislike a game (ie. Halo 3) I would never try to insinuate the time they played on it was wasted, and I even despise half the Halo fanbase too!

[busterswd]

'Cloud-with-Tits'



sounds like an incredible boss. Would he be the child of Tifa and Cloud?

[Arameus]

You're insulting the PEOPLE who PLAY it.

I took heavy offense at the implication LIKING A GAME meant I was an idiot wasting my time.

You sir, are a jerk. And I am trying to refrain from using any insult too personal, since this forum is generally reserved for NICE people. By this I am not going to insinuate you are not a nice person overall (even if I do find you a jerk) because I do not know you... but I will say I am not nice when I start insulting people.

Edit: No matter the game I find it horribly annoying to say anyone has ever wasted his time playing it. If someone finds some sort of enjoyment in E.T. I won't say his time was wasted, even if I dislike a game (ie. Halo 3) I would never try to insinuate the time they played on it was wasted, and I even despise half the Halo fanbase too!

But he doesn't enjoy playing it. So it IS a waste of time, enjoyment being the purpose games, in theory. Wasting money, too. You, on the other hand, clearly enjoy it. So YOU aren't wasting your time or money. It's funny, I could have swore I devoted an entire paragraph to both of those facets. TL;DR, maybe? Can we agree that if the sole object of a pursuit is personal enjoyment, and displeasure is derived from such a pursuit, the time spent engaged therein is wasted, having been not only unproductive but counterproductive? Actually, agreement is moot since that statement is true regardless. So is the statement that my remarks referred only to my brother, not to anyone that inexplicably enjoys the game. And despite my having never said a word against you or the game's players until you started insulting me, and even then only pointing out that you had clearly not examined my post very closely, having failed to comprehend its content and its nature. Yet you are as much as admitting that you are insulting me as harshly as you can while staying within the rules, while freely admitting to holding a deep prejudice of your own against players of a game you don't happen to like, which is almost amusing but mostly just sad.

What I find very funny, however, is that you have the gall to do so in a thread created for no other purpose than to mock this game and its players.

I don't even care about the game so much as I take offense to having my words twisted to make me out as a bad person, which, as I pointed out, is obviously counterproductive since even a passing examination of the facts will not only vindicate me but turn a rather disapproving eye back at you. Sounds like you're wasting your time.


sounds like an incredible boss. Would he be the child of Tifa and Cloud?

Nope. This is in reference to FFXIII's protagonist, Lightning, the first canon female protagonist. Director Yoshinori Kitase stated that for Lightning, he had instructed series artist Tetsuya Nomura to make Lightning resemble a female version of Cloud, both superficially and in regards to personality. From even the scant few shots we have of the character, we can see that this is unfortunately the path they've chosen. I don't think it gets more unoriginal than openly heading your cast with a gender-swapped expy from a decade ago.

[LordVader]

They're making a female version of a previous star character the star of the next game?

Why not just make it Cloud, and be done with it?

[Crow]

You're insulting the PEOPLE who PLAY it.

I took heavy offense at the implication LIKING A GAME meant I was an idiot wasting my time.

You sir, are a jerk. And I am trying to refrain from using any insult too personal, since this forum is generally reserved for NICE people. By this I am not going to insinuate you are not a nice person overall (even if I do find you a jerk) because I do not know you... but I will say I am not nice when I start insulting people.

Edit: No matter the game I find it horribly annoying to say anyone has ever wasted his time playing it. If someone finds some sort of enjoyment in E.T. I won't say his time was wasted, even if I dislike a game (ie. Halo 3) I would never try to insinuate the time they played on it was wasted, and I even despise half the Halo fanbase too!

If you have fun playing it, why do you care what some other guy thinks? Seriously, why take offense? I like Too Human. People say it sucks and it's a waste of money and time, but I enjoy it. In the end, you spend your money and time how you like, and if someone else thinks it's dumb, what do you care? It's not like they are ruining your fun...

I have two buddies that are fanatical about FFXI. They play it because they like Final Fantasy and it's worlds, not because of the game's system or because they like grinds. Sometimes, people will enjoy something simply because it deals with a subject they like. One person's trash is another person's treasure.

***Goes back to playing Conan (not the MMO) for xbox360, ignoring the terrrible reviews***

[Setra]

But he doesn't enjoy playing it. So it IS a waste of time, enjoyment being the purpose games, in theory. Wasting money, too. You, on the other hand, clearly enjoy it. So YOU aren't wasting your time or money. It's funny, I could have swore I devoted an entire paragraph to both of those facets. TL;DR, maybe? Can we agree that if the sole object of a pursuit is personal enjoyment, and displeasure is derived from such a pursuit, the time spent engaged therein is wasted, having been not only unproductive but counterproductive? Actually, agreement is moot since that statement is true regardless. So is the statement that my remarks referred only to my brother, not to anyone that inexplicably enjoys the game. And despite my having never said a word against you or the game's players until you started insulting me, and even then only pointing out that you had clearly not examined my post very closely, having failed to comprehend its content and its nature. Yet you are as much as admitting that you are insulting me as harshly as you can while staying within the rules, while freely admitting to holding a deep prejudice of your own against players of a game you don't happen to like, which is almost amusing but mostly just sad.
First off, I'll apologize for misunderstanding your posts meanings, however to me your wording made it sound offensive. This is my fault so whatever.

Second off, I don't hold a prejudice against Halo players. That implies I dislike them before I meet them, instead I have simply disliked half of the Halo fans I have met. I do not dislike people just because they play a game, this is what I THOUGHT you were doing.

Third off, I called you a jerk... that's hardly insulting.


What I find very funny, however, is that you have the gall to do so in a thread created for no other purpose than to mock this game and its players.I expected that the people of this board would not take it too far as they are generally nice folk, again this is apparently a board where the word "jerk" is 'insulting as harshly as I can while still staying within the rules'


I don't even care about the game so much as I take offense to having my words twisted to make me out as a bad person, which, as I pointed out, is obviously counterproductive since even a passing examination of the facts will not only vindicate me but turn a rather disapproving eye back at you. Sounds like you're wasting your time.I did not twist your words. In your first post you said the game was a joke, and said your brother was wasting his time playing it. HOWEVER you did not mention he did not enjoy the game, so it could easily have been taken as an insult.

The second post I didn't bother to read past the first paragraph because I figured you'd just go into a list as to why it sucks and then insult me, and I don't like getting upset because I am known to harm people when I am in a bad mood.

We are both wasting our time however, since we are arguing over what appears to have been a misunderstanding, and my negligence in not reading your second post. I will admit fault.

Not because I am pretending to be a 'better man', because I know I am not, but because I hate getting upset and wish for this to just be over with.

Edit:

If you have fun playing it, why do you care what some other guy thinks? Seriously, why take offense? I like Too Human. People say it sucks and it's a waste of money and time, but I enjoy it. In the end, you spend your money and time how you like, and if someone else thinks it's dumb, what do you care? It's not like they are ruining your fun... I don't know why but I have always been bothered by what other people think, it's a big fault of mine.

[Arameus]

Well, at least you admit to not trying to be the better man. Once you initiate namecalling, that's pretty much intangible.

If you're really so 'bothered by what other people think,' the Internet is far, far too diverse a place for your apparent temperament. Chances are, each and every person on this board disagrees with you about something you consider important. And if such an inevitable disagreement is likely to provoke such a response, it is not the responsibility of every other poster to watch out for you. I don't know what in the world 'I harm people when I'm in a bad mood' is meant to evoke. I certainly don't believe I'm in any great danger and if the staggering blow of seeing someone wrong on the Internet is placing the people near you in physical danger, neither I nor anybody else can be held responsible for the actions of someone who admits their behavioral shortcomings on an online forum.

If you'd like an example of how to disagree and remain amicable, refer to my Too Human thread, in which I rabidly stake that game to the wall with railroad spikes and tear hungrily at its flesh in a way that makes my quick, glancing swipe at this MMORPG seem like glowing praise, and manage to have both a civil and in fact enjoyable discussion with someone who does not agree with me and inexplicably remains an interesting and friendly contributor, as do I, would you believe.

But I must take issue one final time with something you said, before I abandon what will then become an attempt to carve wind: Only you argue over a misunderstanding. I was in the clear the whole time, and seeing as how my point was to prove this, among other complaints, it seems my time was well spent.

Galkan. Sausage. HAHAHAHAHAHAAA!!!

[Vonriel]

What linkshell are you assuming I'm bashing? My comment was against someone who does not seem to have experience with FFXI endgame making an incorrect statement about how endgame linkshells worked. I'm not saying anything against any group playing FFXI; on the contrary, I am impressed with their efforts. I can only assume you read my post out of context and believed me to be making a derogatory remark against a particular linkshell, rather than the hypothetical situation that the previous poster postulated. It seems you greatly misunderstand and misrepresent me, to the point of throwing such slanders about me without even knowing who I am...hence my comment on the irony.

Heh, I think I didn't post my meaning clear enough, or you maybe misread mine. Not sure which, and either way, it isn't important. I was talking to the people who blatantly said these people are liars, as well as idiots, etc. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

[Setra]

Edit:

Screw it, I don't care

I keep trying to think of nice things to say but end up being unable to do so, so I will just keep to the old saying of "If you can't say anything nice... don't say anything at all"

Once again, I apologize.

[Mirrinus]

Heh, I think I didn't post my meaning clear enough, or you maybe misread mine. Not sure which, and either way, it isn't important. I was talking to the people who blatantly said these people are liars, as well as idiots, etc. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

No problem, I've found it's rather silly to get worked up over these things. Glad we could work it out. :smallsmile:

[Tirian]

I was talking to the people who blatantly said these people are liars, as well as idiots, etc. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

Hey, look. I've been around computers all my life, and that predates the IBM PC and the Apple II. I went to one of the most esteemed and competitive computer/engineering colleges in the United States. So, when someone steps forward with a computer-related claim like "People were passing out and getting physically ill [....] We decided to end it before we risked turning into a horrible news story about how video games ruin people's lives," I am both alarmed and skeptical. Computer games shouldn't make people sick, and in my extended experience, up to this point they generally haven't. If FFXI has somehow unleashed an epidemic that creates two or more medical emergencies out of a reasonably small sample of however many people were involved in the battle, then such a claim demands investigation. If he wanted the claim to be taken seriously, he would have provided some names and email addresses.

Or we can believe option B: this is a tall tale about the one that got away. A good story about a fish who broke your line can become a better story about a fish who broke your pole. These guys clearly fought up to the limits of their endurance, but it is for each of judge whether they truly stopped at exhaustion or went on until people were literally collapsing onto their keyboards. Like I intimated in my post, I don't think that it was a "lie" because I don't think he actually intended for us to believe it.

But whatever. If you are able to take every statement made in an MMO forum by elite level players at face value, then we've probably never played the same MMOs.