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View Full Version : Villains Who Really Aren't: 101 Suggestions For Heroic Enemies



Leliel
2008-08-21, 04:48 PM
Well, recently I decided to take my liking for anti-villains to the next level an start creating major baddies-maybe even a couple BBEGs-who aren't even villains by any strech of the imagination, they just get a bad rap by the Forces of Good (TM), due to praticing "dark magic", being a member of a normally evil race, unintended consequences of their actions, or corruption within said Forces of Good.

For example, one of the secondary BBEGs of a future anime-inspired D&D is a rakshasa monk of a distant mountain shrine who uses his skills in manipulation to trick various nobles into instituting programs to make sure his home stays unsettled by man, and help the downtrodden while he's at it. Naturally, the local expantionist elements hate him for it, and his habit of creating undead to guard his home and as a work force for his colleges in the shrine isn't helping his image any.

So, any suggestions on villains who aren't really bad people at all?

Tengu_temp
2008-08-21, 05:01 PM
A leader and visionaire who has foreseen the attack of a great enemy military force, and knows that the lands around are too weak and divided to win against them. In order to save them, he decides to sacrifice himself and wage war against them, creating an army just strong enough for them to consider him a common threat and unite.

A champion of a dying world, who has come to this one to collect the magical/life energy from the planet in order to save his. Unknown to him, his attempts to save his world would ultimately doom this one.

A spy who gets asked by the Good Kingdom to infiltrate the ranks of the Evil Kingdom and grow into a position of power, in order to take part in a plan against the EK that she will not survive - and she knows it.


Yeah, all of these are video game examples.

UglyPanda
2008-08-21, 05:01 PM
4. Party is evil - The good guys are the villains automatically.

5. Well Intentioned Extremist - Tv Tropes (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/WellIntentionedExtremist)

6. Fugitive - He's running from the law over a crime he didn't commit.

7. Heroic Jerk - He's a good guy, but treats the PCs like crap.

8. Hero with bad publicity - Like Spider-man, is thought by random civilians to be a threat or menace.

9. Rebel leader - He hates the current government, the government wants to snuff him out and hires the PCs.

Edit: Ninja caused me to have to change my numbering.

Oracle_Hunter
2008-08-21, 06:01 PM
10) Klaus Wulfenbach (http://www.girlgeniusonline.com/comic.php?date=20040114).

For the short of his origin story, read away (http://www.girlgeniusonline.com/comic.php?date=20040804)!

Tadanori Oyama
2008-08-21, 06:05 PM
11) Someone is killing people in the kingdom and there seems to be no pattern. Unknown to the party the "villain" is slaying those who have committed evil, beneiftied from it, and purposefully hidden their crimes.

HardboiledJJ
2008-08-21, 06:08 PM
12. The Necessary Evil: Some plague or body snatcher style epidemic arises. Though the hero's search for a solution, to the "villain" the lives of the many must outweigh the few. Quarantines are sanctioned, with strays having to be put down to prevent the spread. People revolt against being treated like animals. Things escalate, etc.

Stormageddon
2008-08-21, 06:12 PM
Just think of any anti-hero. Kurt Cobain, James Dean.. ext... ext....

Totally Guy
2008-08-21, 06:13 PM
Think Desmond from Lost.

I'm basing a villain on him. He's stuck in a a cave killing a Lich that respawns every 1D4 days or however long. His motivation is to get out of the cave but to do so must find a successor. And when the thinks he's under attack, even by the heroes he assumes it's followers of the lich. He pumps out monsters for the heroes to fight and then attempts to switch places with a single party member to escape his fate. The reason he can't destroy destroy the Lich is because he is a load bearing boss.

Dr Bwaa
2008-08-21, 06:18 PM
#12 is similar to problems I intend to create (or will create themselves) in a Plague campaign I'm running based on an idea I found on these very forums about a sentient disease :) except of course, it'll be the party members who are the necessary evil... maybe :smallbiggrin:

13) I'm surprised no one's mentioned Holy Crusades or the like yet. These generally exist to convert people because the perpetrators genuinely believe they need saving (maybe it falls under #5)

Tadanori Oyama
2008-08-21, 06:24 PM
14) The Compelled. Girl doesn't want to be a villain. Infact, she's a hero. But something's happened to her all of a sudden and now she's raising an army of undead!

LibraryOgre
2008-08-21, 06:26 PM
Two Sides of a War (http://www.editors-wastebasket.org/nexx/tsr/2sides.html)

May not have a "BBEG", but it does raise questions about your cause when your opponents are good.

Brother Oni
2008-08-21, 06:26 PM
For a variation of Tengu's first suggestion and one that is based on a real historical figure: the numerous smaller kingdoms are constantly warring and feuding with each other, causing hardship and suffering among the civillian people.
One man decides to end the constant cycle of suffering by uniting the kingdoms by the quickest means possible - conquest. As he's out-numbered and surrounded by his enemies, he has to resort to every ruthless underhanded military tactic to win and strict draconian governing in order to pacify the captured territories (as he can't spare too many troops to garrison them).


The Operative from Serenity is another good example - he knows he's a monster that will have no place in the Alliance utopia he's trying to create, but he's willing to do anything required to help bring that world around.


The Hitokiri Battousai from Rurouni Kenshin. Feared and hated among the government troops as the ultimate assassin, viewed in awe and dread by his own side, he's the epitome of a death god.
And then Himura Kenshin does something stupid and you'd never believe it was the same bloke...

Brother Oni
2008-08-21, 06:42 PM
13) I'm surprised no one's mentioned Holy Crusades or the like yet. These generally exist to convert people because the perpetrators genuinely believe they need saving (maybe it falls under #5)

Anything involving religion is automatically shades of grey morality in my book, rather than playing against the type, which is the intention here.

For example, the word crusade is regarded by most Middle Eastern people in the same light as most western people see the word jihad.

Even in a fantasy setting, where there are more clear cut variations of 'good' and 'evil', it's often more a case of 'Them and Us'.
For example orcs are generally regarded as evil, but look at Warhammer orcs from this point of view: you have a ruthless darwinian style culture, where the biggest and strongest become the most eligible to breed, thus increasing the strength of their race and society. The boss (orc chieftain) will generally look after his lads (fellow subordinate orcs), although he'll give them a bit of kicking (harsh physical discipline) from time to time to make sure they all stay in line.

Flickerdart
2008-08-21, 06:44 PM
Hm, villains who aren't...what about some True Neutral guy that's obsessed with Balance? He's not Evil, but he opposes Good.

You could also play on the conflict between Law and Chaos instead of Good and Evil.

Alternately, a super-powerful being that's just bored. Or testing the heroes for a battle against a more powerful evil.

thegurullamen
2008-08-21, 07:06 PM
Think Desmond from Lost.

I'm basing a villain on him. He's stuck in a a cave killing a Lich that respawns every 1D4 days or however long. His motivation is to get out of the cave but to do so must find a successor. And when the thinks he's under attack, even by the heroes he assumes it's followers of the lich. He pumps out monsters for the heroes to fight and then attempts to switch places with a single party member to escape his fate. The reason he can't destroy destroy the Lich is because he is a load bearing boss.

Okay, first: damn you. After reading that post, I went and Wikipedia'd the plots to Lost Seasons 2-Present. There's ninety seven hours of my life I'll never get back.

Second: A mage that creates a very complex matrix/patchwork/maze of wild elemental planar connections in a mountainous area, resulting in extreme conditions that kill anyone who cannot survive the heat/cold/tidal forces/other horrible things (i.e. non-Epics). Furthermore, he hunts down and destroys civilizations that produce even a single person who begins to understand how the matrix/maze works. Why? She or He's protecting the cornerstone of the world/only thing that will free the Elder Gods/the last remaining city of the earliest empire buried deep within the mountains.

14b)Think of him or her as a stationary Time Lord politician with a bent for hardcore preservationism.

Radiant Knight
2008-08-21, 07:15 PM
Here's a certain Big Bad in one of my campaigns. Long, wordy explanation follows.

Tired of the injustice, greed, and general incompetence of the governments and monarchies around the world, a powerful wizard withdraws from civilization in disgust. He begins studying powerful, dark magics, and comes to a conclusion: Only those without prejudice and who are morally incorruptable can rule the land - And decides that mortals, including himself, would never be fit to rule. However, the undead fit those prerequisites fairly well...

He begins small, simply raiding graveyards and tombs and recruiting those of like mind to his following. Eventually he simply has his undead gather bodies from the safety of his lair. None of his minions ever go out of their way to harm anyone, and encounters are avoided unless they are attacked. His forces grow large enough to simply demand the bodies of the dead from towns and villages, and his army begins growing even faster.

Long story short, eventually he bullies enough cities to bring all of their dead to his lair: They fear the consequences of not doing so. He projects himself as some sort of vengeful god, angry at the populace for mistreating his servants so foolishly. He eventually grows old, and not wishing to fall into deep corruption by becoming a lich, passes his mantle to his most loyal and able cultist, who does the same when s/he grows old, and so forth.

Then, the time comes when the forces are sufficient enough to do Y, Y being something big and immediate to the players. I personally opt for pulling an Atlantis on a large city, sacrificing a large populace to expand the horde of undead even more, and then using the now-sunken city as a place where the necromancer can store his army safely should things ever go poorly. Lots of people would die, but sacrifices must be made...


So, essentially a guy who wants to rid the world of their weakness and corruptability by controlling the populations with their (un)dead. As a bonus, he's not out to destroy the world, just control it, so if the players fail to stop him, they can always overthrow his new empire in the next campaign, which sounds even cooler, honestly.

Glawackus
2008-08-21, 09:03 PM
15: All for the Children.

See Runaways: Mom and Dad are just out to make the world a safer place for the children, even if it means brutally axing some people to do it.

Duke of URL
2008-08-21, 09:23 PM
16: The Accidental Villain

In this case the "villain" is acting out of what could be the purest of motives, based on the information he/she has, which seems complete and reasonable. However, there is a terrible secret, not known to our "villain", that he/she is actually standing in the way of fighting/resolving, if only by accident.

Jack_Simth
2008-08-21, 09:25 PM
17) The Mutually Exclusive Goal: There's a limited quantity of some thing that is needed to save a town/city/country/whatever, and the opponent(s) is(are) going after it to save all those people. The party also needs it to save some other large group of people, but the catch is that there's not enough to do both. Could be an artifact that'll do it, but only works so often, so that if it's used to save the one group, it can't be used to save the other, and vice-versa. Could be some material that there's only a finite amount of, and there's simply not enough available for both. Whatever - it's easy to come up with.
18) The bounty hunter: PC's get framed (or get rightfully convicted of something they actually did) and the bounty hunter is coming to arrest them for their evil deeds.

Talanic
2008-08-21, 09:41 PM
19: The Crippled Hero - The cost of saving the world was more than he could bear. Though he succeeded, he was warped in the process and is now a danger to himself and others. In his lucid periods he seeks to make himself safe, but those periods are rare and fleeting.

CarpeGuitarrem
2008-08-21, 09:46 PM
20. Evil Miko. A character who's been brainwashed by their government into ruthlessly attacking the heroes, thinking that they are serving good.

21. The Operative. A character who believes absolutely in the tyrannical government, because they have nothing else to believe in. (Potential material for a heel-face turn)

tsuuga
2008-08-21, 11:54 PM
22. The God-king. He's not only a good guy, he's head of state and has supreme personal power as well. He's a benevolent dictator, but he upsets the balance of power. Neighboring nations don't like him. He's entirely too nice to some nasty underlings who give him a bad name. Maybe he doesn't have a lot of mercy for people who directly oppose him, or maybe he's got some social policy that rubs your PCs the wrong way - anything from communism to racial superiority to which side to butter the bread on. If your characters are particularly antiheroic, or pro-chaos, they may want to off him just because he threatens to bring too much stability to the region. Based on Ma'el Koth of Heroes Die.

AslanCross
2008-08-22, 01:06 AM
23. The Inconvenient Truth: The consequences of the Good Kingdom's way of life (probably due to the overuse of magic, pollution, or simply cutting down too many trees) has resulted either in a natural backlash, a druid-led attempt to "cleanse and rebalance" nature, or a warped race of creatures that attack civilization to feed off its magic.

24. The White Knight Under A Black Flag (aka The Suzaku): Well-intentioned good guy openly defects to the Evil Empire in order to change it from within. In order to do this, he has to abide by its laws and follow orders from above, no matter how evil they are. Based on Suzaku Kururugi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suzaku_Kururugi) from Code Geass. Suzaku himself has a touch of Lawful Stupidity, and as such became a wrench in the protagonist's plans.

25. The Genocide Princess: Normally extremely sweet and gentle character who, for inexplicable reasons, does something evil on a massive scale.

26. The Brutal Protector: In order to prevent a "greater evil" from happening (or Elder Evil from awakening), an entity/organization/race takes it upon itself to ruthlessly suppress the way of life of all the goodly folk, as their way of life will inevitably awaken the greater/Elder Evil.

Fri
2008-08-22, 01:07 AM
A mysterious serial killer that seems to kill people at random. After you beat him, you found that he's actually protecting the world from a far greater threat, an unimaginable cosmic horror of some sort that will using those people to manifest itself into the world. Everybody thought he's just bonkers, but maybe he isn't?

In the same spirit with above. A king/orc leader that sacrifice people from surrounding places anually. You stop his last ceremony, but you found out that he sacrifice people to an ancient gate of some sort that will release an unthinkable cosmic horror without an annual sacrifice ceremony. He's just trying to keep the world intact.

Both of those villain can be beaten, and then the heroes might have the next quest: trying to seal/destroy the cosmic horror for good before it's true release.

Aquillion
2008-08-22, 01:50 AM
27. The Fatalist. They simply accept what destiny or the gods or whatever sets down, even if they don't think it's right or just. Their role in life is to obey their liege and kill the players, so they will kill the players; there's nothing personal about it.

28. Triage is Evil. For some reason, anyone who feels they can only save some people and is trying to decide who to save is evil or misguided.

29. "Nah, I was just messing with you. I'm really just a guy who likes to kick puppies." Ok, so it doesn't fit the request, but come on.

Kami2awa
2008-08-22, 06:10 AM
A villain who creates a false threat in order to unite two warring nations. He's a liar and a trickster, but with good motive.

Ellisthion
2008-08-22, 08:55 AM
I just finished running a game where the villain, although evil, could easily have not have been:

Villain's parents were killed in a fairly large war, and, as her honour and tribe demanded, she swore revenge against the killers. Piled on top of this, her side in the war was basically wiped out, in not very friendly ways. In order to strike back at the clans responsible for the deaths of her loved ones, she manipulated the hell out of a more powerful kingdom, by raising a token "army" of goblins, throwing it against the walls of the city, then coming in afterwards and shouting "they did it!", pointing at her enemies. The powerful kingdom then sent a fairly powerful force to try to deal with this perceived threat, until the party worked it out, brokered peace, and took her down.

AKA_Bait
2008-08-22, 10:05 AM
32. "He's just a little bit jumpy" - A good guy with powerful magical artifact. At this point, he's so used to people coming to take it from him that he has set up elaborate magical and mundane defenses. Some of those defenses can get to be a little bit too... proactive.

and the flip side:

33. "I'm sorry, but it's really not safe for you to have this." - A powerful magical/divine character that is fully and totally aware of the danger of letting powerful magical items and artifacts float around unmonitored and uncontrolled. So, if someone, say a PC or less than trustworty noble or orc tribe or whoever, gets their hands on a Staff of Power... he comes and takes it away from them and either destroys it or stores it someplace safe. Period. Doesn't matter who you are, doesn't matter why you think you need it. The danger of it being around in unsupervised hands is just too great.

mangosta71
2008-08-22, 01:47 PM
I'm thinking of The Lady from Glen Cook's series The Black Company. If you haven't read it, I highly recommend it. The third book (The White Rose) really lets you see who she is and what she's like.

chiasaur11
2008-08-22, 01:53 PM
Anyone brought up Vetinari yet?

He does have a bit of a dislike for DnD style "Heroes"...

Telonius
2008-08-22, 01:57 PM
10) Klaus Wulfenbach (http://www.girlgeniusonline.com/comic.php?date=20040114).

For the short of his origin story, read away (http://www.girlgeniusonline.com/comic.php?date=20040804)!

Blast! Beaten to the punch. I fully endorse this mention.

busterswd
2008-08-22, 02:06 PM
The general motivations behind a (non) villain:

-The Greater Good (The end justifies the means)
-More Knowledge than the protagonists (Great, you've killed me, now the world devouring horror will destroy Earth)
-Misguided Protagonist (Miko)
-Wounded Idealist (Good person who's just given up hope due to tragedy, usually nihilistic)
-The Loyalist (sticks by his mentor/friend/commander to the end, regardless of their alignment or actions)
-Holier than thou (your actions make YOU evil to me, again Miko)
-Secret Agent (I've been working for good this whole time, but telling you would undermine everything I've done)
Edit: -Discriminated as Evil: Either a previous baddy who's gone through efforts to rehibilitate himself, or a lone renegade wolf of justice of a race generally thought of as evil, OR someone who just looks and gives the impression of evil despite their generally benign nature.

To make it even more general:
Either their view of good is flawed, or specific values they hold override the others, or the actual protagonists don't have a full understanding of what's really happening.

Aquillion
2008-08-22, 02:17 PM
The general motivations behind a (non) villain:
To make it even more general:
Either their view of good is flawed, or specific values they hold override the others, or the actual protagonists don't have a full understanding of what's really happening.You forgot the Rule of Cool!

Some people are just too awesome to be genuinely evil.

AKA_Bait
2008-08-22, 02:24 PM
Anyone brought up Vetinari yet?

He does have a bit of a dislike for DnD style "Heroes"...

As much as I love, truly, love Havelock, I'd say he's pretty much the epitome of Lawful Evil and not really a hero or good guy. He's just a really, really smart bad guy who realizes that an orderly, prosperous, and safe society actually benifits him more than an overtly despotic one.

hamishspence
2008-08-22, 02:31 PM
People need to realize that Heroic and Bad guy are not mutually exclusive, a bad guy can behave in heroic ways.

That said, Non-evil adversaries can exist, but some of the descriptions given sound more like Sympathetic evil than Good.

Exemplars of Evil has suggestions for Non-evil Villains.

chiasaur11
2008-08-22, 05:19 PM
As much as I love, truly, love Havelock, I'd say he's pretty much the epitome of Lawful Evil and not really a hero or good guy. He's just a really, really smart bad guy who realizes that an orderly, prosperous, and safe society actually benifits him more than an overtly despotic one.

I'm not sure. He places "The City" first, rather than his own benefit as far as I can see.

Plus, he punishes mimes severely, and no man who does that can be considered all bad.

BRC
2008-08-22, 05:30 PM
I'm not sure. He places "The City" first, rather than his own benefit as far as I can see.

Plus, he punishes mimes severely, and no man who does that can be considered all bad.

I would more say he moreso plays it cautiously, as the leader of the city, especially one as prone to overthrowing leaders as Anhk-Morpork, what's good for the city IS good for him, because provided people stay happy, or at least not unhappy enough to overthrow him, he gets to stay in power.

mostlyharmful
2008-08-22, 05:36 PM
As much as I love, truly, love Havelock, I'd say he's pretty much the epitome of Lawful Evil and not really a hero or good guy. He's just a really, really smart bad guy who realizes that an orderly, prosperous, and safe society actually benifits him more than an overtly despotic one.

Nonsense, He's clearly the epitome of Lawful Good, he's just a really, really smart good guy who realizes what an orderly, prosperous, and safe society actually requires.

Given how much of his time he dedicates to ensuring the greater good (firstly for the City but also for those outside it's borders so long as that doesn't conflict) without giving himself anything (the mime thing is clearly for the great good) I'd say he racks up a few brownie points. He tries to maintain personal freedom, thinks long term, ensures domestic tranquility (so long as it's posible in THAT city) and positively encourages competition to himself. If he was real I'd vote for him... not that I'd need to but...

Agrippa
2008-08-22, 05:45 PM
I'd say that Vetinari is more of a respectable and admirable Lawful Neutral. He's neither particularly benevolent nor malevolent, he just is. He serves the greater good, inside and outside Ankh-Morpork, without harming inocent people. I don't see Havelock as evil, his treatment of mimes not with standing.

Addendum: Mostlyharmful, did you just say that Vetinari is Lawful Good? Then wouldn't that make Patrician Havelock Vetintari a Lawful Good Card Carrying Villian (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CardCarryingVillain)?

mostlyharmful
2008-08-22, 06:01 PM
He serves the greater good, inside and outside Ankh-Morpork, without harming inocent people.

Isn't that kind of indicative? Sometimes highly intelligent men that only wear black and are fully trained assassins are also nice people.

hamishspence
2008-08-23, 03:32 PM
Except for mime artists and street theatre players, if you think of them as innocent. Like Granny weatherwax, he breaks the trope a bit. Granny has every trait of the classic evil witch except being evil. Same might apply to Vetinari.

Point to remember is he evolves some. While Patrician's traits in first 2 books might be put down to poor writing, Young Vetinari is not as sympatheic as Old Vetinari in Night Watch.