Questions ON 4e

[Nerzul9000]

im not really sure how to begin this but it seems that there's alot of speculation about possible changes in 4.0 later...(like bringing back my poor bard :( ) so i figured it's be smart to start a thread where we can ask questions about future additions and just kinda bounce back and forth with it, see if we can figure out what we all want:smallsmile:

[Dhavaer]

I'm pretty sure WotC have confirmed that the Bard, Druid and Sorcerer will be returning. I'm looking forward to the Sorcerer most, I wonder what power source and role it will have? Supposedly it's supposed to have a power source called elemental, but that sounds like it'll overlap with Arcane a bit too much.

[Nerzul9000]

oh? that sounds different...im really excited to see the Bard come back...
if the giant res the bard sig didnt give that one away :P lol...
elemental thou hu?
elemental magic?
smells like a funny mmo....say WoW?

[Viruzzo]

My guess on Sorcerer: elemental striker.
Also the Barbarian will be too in PHB 2.

In what way is elemental magic MMO-related? Don't throw WoW comparisons around, it's the fastest way to start a flame.

[Nerzul9000]

alot of mmo classes run elemental based spell casters.. ie. WoW spell casters (warlock,shaman,priest exempt)

[Dhavaer]

alot of mmo classes run elemental based spell casters.. ie. WoW spell casters (warlock,shaman,priest exempt)

Just about everything with aggressive spellcasting has elemental magic. Lord of the Rings had elemental magic.

[Nerzul9000]

srry...lol IE. Mage class check out the skill tree if you've never played WoW

[Viruzzo]

alot of mmo classes run elemental based spell casters.. ie. WoW spell casters (warlock,shaman,priest exempt)
Probably most of the wizards of every game of any type have elemental spells and/or are based on elemental powers... And it's much more true for JRPGs than MMORPGs.

Also: WoW Priest is definitely not an elemental caster.

[Nerzul9000]

true enough! :)
srry i guess it's just my sampling of mmo's
they all seem to have classes that Revolve around Elemental as apposed to just having a few elemental spells...

[Dhavaer]

srry...lol IE. Mage class check out the skill tree if you've never played WoW

*sigh*
Yes, World of Warcraft probably has elemental magic in it.
So does Guild Wars.
So does Kingdom of Loathing.
So does Diablo 2.
So does Morrowind.
So does every edition of D&D (except maybe 1st, never seen anything about it).
So does Mage.
So does Lord of the Rings.
Elemental magic is close to universal in fantasy. The comparison is absurd.

[Erk]

I'm hoping Sorceror will be a controller; I don't want Wizard to exclusively own the role. Then again, I could see Druid being a controller... entangling vines, barricades of trees, bears summoned in to block off areas. Come to think of it that would make for the first interesting Druid class I've seen in a while. I'd be fine with getting two more controller classes, though, since right now we only have one PC example of how the role can be filled. Makes it harder to homebrew.

Bard has to be leader of course. So far, I'm assuming the power source to be "musical", but I can't see what other classes with that power source there could be... perhaps they'll come up with something else. And of course, Barbarians will be the Primal Defender, or maybe striker.

I'm sort of interested. I suspect 4e will have big problems with power creep though.

[Dhavaer]

Bard has to be leader of course. So far, I'm assuming the power source to be "musical", but I can't see what other classes with that power source there could be... perhaps they'll come up with something else.

I'm guessing Primal for Bards, possibly Arcane.

[Nerzul9000]

arcane for bard...hopefully...
and i never said it was unusual
it's always there
but is it going to be the only focus of the class?
or is it open to expansion
understand me now?:smallsmile:

[Erk]

I'm guessing Primal for Bards, possibly Arcane.

I can't see arcane working, and I'm under the impression that all the new classes will be new power sources at least for now. Primal might work, but if they go that way I'm going to keep accidentally leaning towards tattooed drummer bards rather than wisecracking rapier-slashing lutists.

Still, if it's flavoured with something like "bardic music taps into the Truesong, the song that wrote the world, and unleashes that same energy", primal could fly.

[Dhavaer]

arcane for bard...hopefully...
and i never said it was unusual
it's always there
but is it going to be the only focus of the class?
or is it open to expansion
understand me now?:smallsmile:

Actually I understand you even less now. Elemental is a power source, just like Arcane, Divine and Martial. Nothing has ever been mentioned about classes with multiple power sources, although it's not impossible, of course. Does the Rogue not being able to expand into, say, the Arcane power source annoy you?

[Nerzul9000]

i can see that...primal could work
i was just thinking of past bardic magic, cast arcane spells...weird association, but i see what u mean now

[Nerzul9000]

lol ok we're on a different page :) i think we agree we're just speaking different languanges
:) you're right here i kinda misunderstood the beginnjing there

[Cilvyn]

all fine by me as long they boost the bard and nerf the drood:P

[Nerzul9000]

why are we nerfing the druid-edg?

[Erk]

I don't think it's so much boosting and nerfing as totally redoing both classes. Neither of the originals would fit particularly into 4e.

[Ranis]

At GenCon I got to playtest the 4E bard, along with experience people at the same table playtesting the barbarian, druid, and monk. The bard was very, very fun to play, and it just felt more balanced instead of the typical bard playstyle, i.e. "I sing and hide behind the fighter."

A lot of the bard stuff had to do with illusions, the druids are 4E's first look at polymorph magic, the barbarian is good at pushing and shoving baddies that he hits, and the monk is good at hopping around the battlefield, punching and kicking things as he goes.

[AKA_Bait]

I can't see arcane working, and I'm under the impression that all the new classes will be new power sources at least for now. Primal might work, but if they go that way I'm going to keep accidentally leaning towards tattooed drummer bards rather than wisecracking rapier-slashing lutists.

Still, if it's flavoured with something like "bardic music taps into the Truesong, the song that wrote the world, and unleashes that same energy", primal could fly.

I could see bards being primal easily. Essentially, that's what their role was. The oral history keeping travelers from place to place. The fit in perfectly with barbarians in my mind (I think most of the Greek warriors from the Iliad for example would have been barbarians).

It could lean away from the wise-cracking rapier-slashing lutist picture a bit, but I don't see why it has too. One of the key things about that kind of character, at least in my mind, is their disregard for social convention and, um, ardor. Both of those could still fit primally.


Actually I understand you even less now. Elemental is a power source, just like Arcane, Divine and Martial. Nothing has ever been mentioned about classes with multiple power sources, although it's not impossible, of course. Does the Rogue not being able to expand into, say, the Arcane power source annoy you?

It's worth noting, I think, that the 'power sources' are really just fluff anyway. A rogue can still multiclass and pickup Wizard spells, for example. The fact that a class has an identified powersource as 'martial' or 'divine' or 'blue cheese' doesn't, as far as I can tell, have any actual effect on the mechanics of the class.

[ShaggyMarco]

There is lots of information we know from various sources about PHB 2, and what is coming out.

I will try and find the references later.

PHB 2 will have Primal, Arcane, and Divine power sources only, and will have at least 2 of each, but will mostly be Primal.

The Druid, Barbarian, Bard, and Sorcerer will all be in PHB 2.

There will be 2 controllers in PHB 2.

There will be a more castery-cleric, throwing around flame-strike style spells.

The Druid will be a hybrid of more than one role.

The Bard will be an Arcane Leader

There will be a class called Shaman and it will be a leader.

The classes will begin with the following letters: B, B, D, I, S, S, T, W

Swordsage is NOT one of the new classes in PHB 2.

Other than Bard, Barbarian, Druid, and Sorcerer, the PHB 2 classes will be all-new core classes that did not appear in 3.5.

The Sorcerer will likely also be a controller.

These are the facts I can recall about PHB 2. Based on them, I have drawn the following conclusions about what we'll see.

Idea 1:
Barbarian: Primal Striker
Bard: Arcane Leader
Druid: Primal Hybrid (Striker/Defender)
Inquisitor: Divine Striker
Shaman: Primal Leader
Sorcerer: Arcane Controller
Theurge/Thaumateurge: Divine Controller
Warden: Primal Defender

or

Idea 2:
Barbarian: Primal Defender or Striker
Bard: Arcane Leader
Druid: Primal Hybrid (Striker/Defender)
Inquisitor: Divine Striker
Shaman: Primal Leader
Sorcerer: Arcane Controller
Templar: Divine Defender
Warden/Witch: Primal Controller

These are my PHB 2 guesses.

[Matthew]

All your 4e questions will be answered with this one simple video: Inside 4e (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eljUE5K2DAw). :smallbiggrin:

[AKA_Bait]

All your 4e questions will be answered with this one simple video: Inside 4e (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eljUE5K2DAw). :smallbiggrin:

No, No. You need to go directly to the source (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8UldMTTDJ4). :smallwink:

[MammonAzrael]

OP: Fun thread idea, and as already covered, the Bard shall be returning soon.

On sorcerers: The stop-comparing-it-to-WOW arguement has already been made(thank you Dhavaer). I second the idea that the sorcerer will be the elemental striker. I believe it's already been confirmed that it will use elemental as it's power source, and i just see it in more of a striker roll. Perhaps leader, since it's so Charisma happy. If ShaggyMarco is right, then it'll likely be Arcane, possibly Primal.

And Erk, the Wizard will not remain the only controller, I think WotC plans on every power source having at least one of every roll.

On the druid: It's being "nerfed" because it's obscenely overpowered in 3.5. Just look up information on CODzilla (assuming you haven't heard about it before).

Ranis: Do you happen to remember which classes had which power sources and roles? You make it sound like the barbarian is a controller, and the monk a striker (and both Primal!)

[Matthew]

No, No. You need to go directly to the source (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8UldMTTDJ4). :smallwink:

Hah, hah. Psionics now Mandatory!

[Apologies for this unscheduled thread jack]

[Yakk]

PHB2 is 4 Primal, 2 Arcane and 2 Divine power sources, bringing the totals up to 4 core Martial, Arcane, Divine and Primal classes.

The Martial Power splatbook is coming out shortly, and with PHB2 they can release the Arcane, Divine and Primal splatbooks.

Naturally, non-core classes (such as the swordmage from FR) will be added to other books.

[RTGoodman]

The Martial Power splatbook is coming out shortly, and with PHB2 they can release the Arcane, Divine and Primal splatbooks.

I could be wrong, but I think I remember reading or hearing somewhere that the "[X] Power" splatbooks are just going to have new powers, feats, paragon paths, and epic destinies. New classes will usually just appear in the PHB books each year (and in other places where necessary, like the Artificer and Swordmage in their respective campaign setting books).

[Viruzzo]

The Sorcerer will likely also be a controller.
This IMHO would be stupid: the problem with Wizards and Sorceres is that they were too alike, and now they are making both of them Controllers? Unless they are diversified a lot (and their power sources are apparently the two closest existing), they would be still too similar.
I imagine it as a "3.x Blaster Wizard" style Striker, which would be different from the Warlock who is focused on debuffs, DoTs and teleports.

[ShaggyMarco]

The classes preview book said that Sorcerers will still be similar to wizards (I imagine that they too will be Arcane Controllers), but that their spell effects will "stick around" for a few rounds after the first blast.

I think they will probably have lots of area spells (probably at shorter range than the Wizard) but will have lots of Buff/Debuff riders on their damage effects.

They might have Lingering Flames, a area fireball type effect that then does on-going fire damage, or a force damage close power that also puts up mini-shields on their allies for a turn.

I imaginge they will be Controllers with some Leader elements to them.

Perosnally, I wouldn't go this direction. I would probably have gone with the whole "needless symmetry" thing and had one of each role/power source.

Designers have, however, said that they are avoiding needless symmetry and going for what is fun and cool and needs to be designed. Thus we get two Martial Strikers rather than an attempt to make the Ranger/Roge a martial controller.

[Siegel]

There was something said about "Auras" or something like said that Sorcerers will have.

[AKA_Bait]

There was something said about "Auras" or something like said that Sorcerers will have.

Yeah, that was in the Races and Classes preview book. It will be interesting to see if they keep it. Seems a little iffy to manage in practice, but I could be wrong.

[Viruzzo]

Yeah, that was in the Races and Classes preview book. It will be interesting to see if they keep it. Seems a little iffy to manage in practice, but I could be wrong.
Many monsters have aura effects, and they work decently (needs some distance calculations though), so if they work like stances they should be feasible. But shouldn't an aura of fire hurt your allies too?

[Frownbear]

barricades of trees, bears summoned in to block off areas. .

Bearricades!

[Nerzul9000]

Bearricades!

ouch..that pun really hurt my soul...
yikes...
:smalltongue:

[Nerzul9000]

Many monsters have aura effects, and they work decently (needs some distance calculations though), so if they work like stances they should be feasible. But shouldn't an aura of fire hurt your allies too?

you'd think so...
but alot of time that "friendly fire"(no pun intended) stuff seems like it's turned off
i guess it could work though, like it's psionic of something
idk open to interpritation

[Knaight]

Thats because cleric fire is friendly. Unlike wizard fire. Wizard fire just wants to see the world burn, allies and all. You can see the little sparks struggling vainly to reach your robes when you throw them the other direction.