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RagnaroksChosen
2008-08-22, 01:12 PM
hey i was looking through the TOB and i relized that archery gets screwed again. Is there any good archery builds that involve TOB. Using RAW?

Frosty
2008-08-22, 01:15 PM
None whatsoever. You can use thrown weapons though. There is also a homebrewed Discipline involving bows floating around somewhere.

kamikasei
2008-08-22, 01:22 PM
Fax homebrewed the Falling Star (http://wiki.faxcelestis.net/index.php?title=Falling_Star_Discipline) discipline which I see cited in a fair bit of other homebrew ToB material hereabouts.

RagnaroksChosen
2008-08-22, 01:23 PM
None whatsoever. You can use thrown weapons though. There is also a homebrewed Discipline involving bows floating around somewhere.


thrown weapons as melee weapons??
which is crap...

Tengu_temp
2008-08-22, 01:25 PM
thrown weapons as melee weapons??
which is crap...

Nope. Using maneuvers with thrown weapons, at range. There is even a prestige class, Bloodstorm Blade, that focuses on doing that.

Townopolis
2008-08-22, 01:27 PM
thrown weapons as melee weapons??
which is crap...

The reverse, actually, using the Bloodstorm Blade PrC.

There seem to be two versions of the Falling Star discipline, one by Fax and another floating around the Gleemax forums. I vaguely remember there being one or two other disciplines as well, one was focused on sniping IIRC.

Person_Man
2008-08-22, 01:27 PM
Short answer: No.

Long answer: A good archery build needs three things - Manyshot, Rapidshot, and a pile of gp to buy a powerful magic bow and magic arrows with. If you have those three things, you'll generally get 2-7 attacks per round, each dealing 5ish damage per level. Everything else is just frosting on the cake. So you can cherry pick a good stance and certain PrCs (like the Setting Sun Ninja). But for the most part maneuvers will be useless.

playswithfire
2008-08-22, 01:44 PM
Somewhere on gleemax, someone compiled a list of stances/maneuvers/boosts that would be useful for a ranged character, but I'm not sure where it is anymore. I know the mongoose boosts were on the list.

Chronos
2008-08-22, 02:19 PM
One of the problems with melee that ToB sought to address is that it's somewhat difficult to get in a full attack. Often, you'll need to move first, limiting you to a standard action, so ToB introduced a bunch of worthwhile attack options which only required a standard action.

With ranged weapons, though, you don't usually need to move more than 5 feet, so you can get a full attack almost every round if you want. So there's less of a need for ToB maneuvers.

Cainen
2008-08-22, 02:42 PM
True Arrow. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=48255)

It's nice to make a mobile archer with it.

Eldariel
2008-08-22, 11:53 PM
There are 3 offensively useful maneuvers that can be used with a bow (coupled with the whole White Raven-school and defensive maneuvers):
-Dancing Mongoose
-Raging Mongoose
-Time Stands Still
-Giant's Stance (obsoleted by few thousand-costing magic item though (Strongarm Bracers) or any size increases, so mostly the 3 first)

You can make a build with those, heck I've done multiple ToB-based archers. The primary issue here is, you won't have a solid recovery method unless you are a Crusader, and none of those schools are in Crusader's maneuvers known, so you'd have to Prestige out (it can be done, mind you). Generally, it's more economical to be a Warblade and just eat up the lack of a solid recovery method.

Also, Archery is feat intensive and ToB-classes don't get too many related bonus feats (Warblade gets bonus feats, but none of them really applicable to Archery beyond Quick Draw, Improved Initiative and perhaps Combat Reflexes with Dragon added). Still, we had this mageslaying test here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=81144&page=7) - towards the end of this page (page 7) is my Archer. The character is a full progression Eternal Blade - thanks to Power Attack, he's more than competent in melee, and since he's a focused Archer, he can do that too.

This thread (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=332.60) contains some discussion on ToB Archers including a version of the build I gave you that is designed for normal game. Using ToB, you could also make a quite decent Ruby Knight Vindicator (although you'd have to use multiclassing/feats to get the key maneuvers) Archer, or just plain ol' Warblade 20. I'm sure there's a possible Master of the Nine-build there somewhere (although that would be feat intensive).


Ultimately, I'd suggest the Eternal Blade-build. It has quite possibly the best capstone ability ever printed, Knowledge Devotion makes good of the other class feature without giving up any skills for Knowledges, and the rest of the abilities are quite useful too (I used 'Int to AC' a lot in the Mage Slaying match, most notably saving me from two Maximized Orbs), and it gets Time Stands Still on 19. You could go for 17, but that would cost you many feats. The Eternal Blade-build is also competent before that due to the ability to get Int to Attack and Damage (nice boost!), Ranged Weapon Mastery and company. You could even build it to get Dancing Mongoose on 10 to carry you over (and you could buy a Tiger Claw-item to get Raging Mongoose on 17).

Still, mostly you'd be slightly worse at archery than a dedicated long range archer, but slightly better at everything else and much more party friendly (the whole White Raven) along with Swift Action movement, Stances and all that. And competent in melee, if you pick up Power Attack at any point (and buy an Elvencraft Bow). Heck, you could even pick some melee maneuvers if you felt like it (although later Eternal Training takes care of that one - Diamond Mind has a bunch of really awesome maneuvers).

Waspinator
2008-08-23, 02:45 AM
One of the problems with melee that ToB sought to address is that it's somewhat difficult to get in a full attack. Often, you'll need to move first, limiting you to a standard action, so ToB introduced a bunch of worthwhile attack options which only required a standard action.

With ranged weapons, though, you don't usually need to move more than 5 feet, so you can get a full attack almost every round if you want. So there's less of a need for ToB maneuvers.

Good point. Melee guys need to move around a lot to chase people down, but ranged attackers can basically just stand in place and fire unless there is concealing terrain or someone starts punching them in the face.

Eldariel
2008-08-23, 03:29 AM
Good point. Melee guys need to move around a lot to chase people down, but ranged attackers can basically just stand in place and fire unless there is concealing terrain or someone starts punching them in the face.

And Manyshot/Greater Manyshot already address the need for mobility at range.

Turcano
2008-08-23, 03:54 AM
Ultimately, I'd suggest the Eternal Blade-build. It has quite possibly the best capstone ability ever printed, Knowledge Devotion makes good of the other class feature without giving up any skills for Knowledges, and the rest of the abilities are quite useful too (I used 'Int to AC' a lot in the Mage Slaying match, most notably saving me from two Maximized Orbs), and it gets Time Stands Still on 19. You could go for 17, but that would cost you many feats. The Eternal Blade-build is also competent before that due to the ability to get Int to Attack and Damage (nice boost!), Ranged Weapon Mastery and company. You could even build it to get Dancing Mongoose on 10 to carry you over (and you could buy a Tiger Claw-item to get Raging Mongoose on 17).

I've seen this build in action, and it did almost 600 damage in a single round. Not too shabby for an archer.

playswithfire
2008-08-23, 07:42 AM
I found that list: here (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=14238528&postcount=17)
under the spoiler block called "ranged weapon compatable maneuvers and stances"

UglyPanda
2008-08-23, 10:42 AM
Is there anything which isn't a spell which can be used to get around wind wall if you're an archer?

Eldariel
2008-08-23, 11:07 AM
Magic weapon quality: Force (from Magic Item Compendium). Makes your weapon shoot Force Ammunition, which while not specifically stated anywhere, should be immune to Windwall by the virtue of...well, not being matter (Windwall has a pretty generic description, so that should be enough).