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Chronos
2008-08-22, 05:49 PM
Introduction:
Many people, when looking at classes in D&D, consider them based on their role in combat. When it comes to rogues and other skill-based classes, this is a mistake, since the true role of the skill-monkey lies outside of combat. Remember how Bilbo killed Smaug in the surprise round? No, you don't, because he didn't. Bilbo's role versus Smaug was to reconnoiter him, scout out his weak points, and steal treasure from underneath his nose. Most of the fighting, he left to others.

No, a skillmonkey's real asset is the ability to avoid a fight. Remember, you get just as much experience for sneaking past a guard as you do for killing it, and you get just as much loot from the villain if he's still alive at the end as if he's dead. A truly successful encounter, from the sneak's point of view, is one where the other side doesn't even know that there was an encounter.

To this end, an optimized skillmonkey isn't built around d6s of Sneak Attack damage; as the name implies, e's built around the use of skills. What BAB is to a warrior, or spellcasting levels are to a caster, skill points are to a skillmonkey: Your first priority is to keep your ranks high. However, unlike BAB or spellcasting levels, if you fall behind in your skill investment, you can catch up again on later levels. This gives skill-based characters a great deal of flexibility in choosing class levels, unmatched by other character types. You can even afford a few levels of low-skill classes in your build, so long as you make up for them later.

Skills:

As mentioned, the skillmonkey's most valuable abilities are his skills. Here's a discussion of some of the more useful ones.

Balance: It's good to have five ranks in this, since without that, you're considered flat-footed while balancing. Beyond that, though, you'll probably have enough miscellaneous bonuses that you won't need more ranks.

Bluff: A powerful social skill, and relatively unlikely to be nerfed by houserules. If you can make people believe what you want them to believe, you can make them do what you want them to do. Best suited for bards, due to Charisma synergy, the Glibness spell, and other social-enhancing abilities.

Diplomacy: How useful this is depends on what houserules your DM has in place for it (and almost all DMs will have some houserules). By RAW, a second-level marshal/binder can make Asmodeus, lord of the Nine Hells, his best friend in single round of using this skill. So don't do that, because that's only fun for about three seconds, and then everyone has to roll up a new campaign. If you have some more reasonable rules for it, though, it might be worthwhile. Again, like Bluff, this is best used by a bard.

Disable Device: There are many ways, available to many different classes, for dealing with traps. Most of them, however, involve setting them off, which is sometimes a Very Bad Idea. Disable Device is for when you don't want the entire dungeon to know that you're getting past the impaling spikes, deadfalls, and giant rolling boulder.

Disguise: Best used in conjunction with Bluff. Impersonation can get you anywhere, if you impersonate the right person.

Forgery: Like Bluff, except for when you're communicating in writing, not face-to-face. If you ever need to deal with an entire army, this is how.

Hide: Like invisibility, only better. It's just a DC 20 Spot check to notice the presence of an invisible creature, and you can get your Hide check up much higher than that. Plus, there are plenty of magical means to negate invisibility, but very few to negate Hide.

Knowledge: Can be very useful, but the party spellcasters are probably already covering the Knowledge skills pretty well.

Listen: Every character with access to Listen or Spot should max out at least one of them, so as not to fall into ambushes. There are some situations where one is useful but not the other, so it's not a bad idea to max both.

Move Silently: Goes along with Hide. There are very few magical effects which can replace Move Silently at all: The cleric's Silence spell, for instance, silences more than just you, so you might give yourself away by the cessation of ambient noise.

Open Lock: Can be partially replaced by the Knock spell, but sometimes, you want to be able to open a large number of locks, which costs a lot in spell slots or wand charges. I would recommend investing enough to be able to hit a DC 40 in an antimagic field using improvised tools (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0262.html), but the DCs stop scaling after that.

Search: Use in conjunction with Disable Device to deal with traps. Also use to find hidden doors, or anything else others don't want you to find.


Sleight Of Hand: This used to be called "Pick Pockets" in earlier editions, and that's still its primary use. Most foes become a lot less menacing when suddenly, they don't have a weapon, or spell component pouch, or holy symbol, or magic items. Can also be used to do other things with your hands that you don't want others seeing. This will effectively be your primary "attack", or way of doing bad things to enemies.


Spot: See Listen. In addition to defeating stealth, this skill is also used against Disguise and Sleight of Hand.

Survival: Useful if you have the Track feat. Otherwise, skip it.

Tumble: Trained-only, so it's good to have one rank in it. But you probably won't need much more than that.

Use Magic Device: If you're basing your build around UMD, you should probably just save yourself a bunch of gold and play a caster instead. But it opens up a lot of options for enhancing your existing abilities, so shouldn't be skipped.

Use Rope:Very useful, but all the DCs are low. You probably don't need even a single point in it.

Autohypnosis (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/skills/autohypnosis.htm) (XPH): Can save you from some bad situations, if you max it. If you're not maxing it, though, you might as well just rely on your saving throws, just like everyone else.

Iajitsu Focus (OA): If Oriental Adventures is allowed in your game, and you can get Iajitsu Focus as a class skill (as, for instance, through Factotum or Exemplar), it can give you a lot of damage, which also works on objects. Many DMs disallow it, though, since it was never updated to 3.5.

Skill tricks (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20070105a&page=5) (CScoun): Not precisely skills, but you use skill points to get them. A skill trick is like a mini-feat, that gives you some new capability, or allows you to use a skill in a different way. They're especially important if you take the Uncanny Trickster PrC, which both requires them as a prerequisite, and gives you bonus tricks.
Use Psionic Device (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/skills/usePsionicDevice.htm) (XPH): See UMD. However, in most campaign settings, magic is more common than psionics, and there will be a larger variety of spells than of powers, so UMD is more useful.

Ability scores:

Strength: This is your dump stat. Strength is used for three things: Attack rolls, damage rolls, and carrying capacity. For those times you do end up in combat, you'll probably be using Dex for your attack rolls instead of Str (through Weapon Finesse or ranged weapons), and any Str bonus to damage will probably be insignificant compared to your precision damage. Meanwhile, for carrying capacity, you'll eventually be using a Heward's Handy Haversack, and before you get one of those, a pack mule only costs 8 GP.

Dexterity: This is the traditional skillmonkey's primary score. Many of your most important skills are based on Dex, and it also helps keep you alive. Some class features can reduce the importance of Dex, however.

Constitution: Everyone loves Con, of course, but if anyone can afford to skimp a bit on it, it's you. The rogue's primary defense lies in avoiding being targeted in the first place.

Intelligence: This is the key score for Search and Disable Device. More importantly, it also impacts the number of skill points you get. For most rogue builds, Int should be your second-highest score. If you have any Factotum or Beguiler levels, it should be your highest.

Wisdom: Few of your skills are based on Wis, and unless you're a ninja, swordsage, or cloistered cleric, none of your class features are Wis-dependent, either. Still, it adds to Listen, Spot, and Will saves, so it's not a complete waste.

Charisma: How important Cha is depends on how much you focus on social skills: If you make heavy use of Bluff, Disguise, etc., it's great, but you can also make a perfectly viable sneak with Cha in the cellar. If you have any Marshal in your build, though, its importance surpasses Dex, due to its use in minor auras.

Races:

Elf: The basic High Elf has a dexterity bonus and automatically makes Search checks for secret doors, and that's about all it has going for it. The Grey Elf, from the Monster Manual, also gets an Int bonus, which makes it worth considering, but there are still usually better choices.

Gnome: They really ought to get a racial bonus to Disable Device and Open Lock, but don't. On the bright side, they're small, which offers several advantages for a skillmonkey (most notably, a +4 to Hide). See also the Whisper Gnome, below.

Goblin: Similar in many ways to halflings, goblins also get Darkvision, a full 30 foot speed, and a larger bonus to Move Silently. The drawback is a -2 to Charisma, and being despised in most civilized lands. I wouldn't recommend one in a game with a lot of social interaction, but in a straight dungeon crawl, go for it.

Halfling: Small size, a bonus to your most important ability score, a penalty to your least important, racial bonuses to some useful skills, and rogue as favored class. This is probably your best choice for a core-only game. The only drawback is their lack of low-light vision or darkvision, meaning they'll need to carry a light source in dark areas. See also the Strongheart Halfling, below.

Human: Humans are good for any character type. The bonus feat is very nice, of course, but they also get a bonus skill point every level, which is even better for us. They also qualify for the Able Learner feat, which opens up many options for a skillmonkey.

Pixie (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/sprite.htm#pixie): The +4 LA hurts, but the hefty ability score bonuses, invisibility, and flight just might be enough to make up for it in some builds.

Brownie (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/al/20041006a) (web): Like pixies, a fey with 4 LA. They can't fly or turn invisible, but they have even better ability modifiers, tiny size, better SLAs, and a very nice version of Hide in Plain Sight.

Changeling (ECS): Their racial disguise ability is very useful for a socially-focused character, and they get some very nice rogue racial substitution levels. If Eberron material is allowed, the all-around best race for intrigue.

Dark template (ToM): Can be added to anything. Has a LA of 1, but unlike many templates, it's well worth it. Hide in Plain Sight would almost be enough to justify it, but it also gives huge bonuses to Hide and Move Silently, Low-Light and Darkvision, a speed increase, and some cold resistance. Do note that the version of Hide in Plain Sight granted by this template does not remove the need for concealment (though that may be an oversight; check with your DM).

Gloura (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20031003e) (Underdark): An ECL of 9, which puts them out of reach of low-level campaigns, but most of that is fey RHD, which give good skill points, and they get full Bard casting. The 2 LA buys you nice bonuses to Cha and Dex, plus damage reduction, flight, and Unearthly Grace like a nymph, and if you're using level adjustment buyoff from Unearthed Arcana, you can eventually be rid of the entire LA.

Illumian (RoD): Illumians don't get a lot of love, but their power sigils can give them a bonus to a great many different skills. They also count as humans, giving them access to Able Learner (but not the normal human bonus feat and skill points).

Strongheart Halfling (FRCS): All the advantages of a regular halfling, but with an extra feat, too. 'Nuff said.

Whisper Gnome (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20040807a&page=3) (RoS): The absolute best race for stealth. Small size, a large bonus to Move Silently and Hide (in addition to the size bonus), a racial bonus to Dex, Silence as a spell-like ability, low-light and darkvision (so no need for a light source), full speed, and rogue as a favored class. Their charisma penalty hurts for social skills, but otherwise, an excellent race.

The Smallest Giant Ever (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=109065) (ECS, XPH): A trick that can permanently and undispellably turn a giant Fine-sized, and shift ability scores heavily from Str to Dex. All giants have LA, but a mere +1 from Half-Giant is by far worth it. Of course, most DMs won't allow this, but if you're playing in a sufficiently high-cheese game, it's hard to imagine a better option.

Class abilities:

This section covers some common class abilities you'll often get for skill-focused characters, either incidentally, or from seeking them out.

Concealment: Several different class abilities grant you the concealment you need to be able to hide, or bypass the need for concealment. This gives you the option of walking right up to your mark, without worrying about whether there's anything to hide behind.

Evasion: If you're having to make a saving throw, something's probably gone wrong already. Still, things do go wrong sometimes, so evasion is a nice insurance policy. It doesn't particularly relate to skills, beyond the fact that skillful classes often get it for free. Don't go out of your way to get the Improved version, though, since it only makes a difference when you fail a save, and your Reflex saves should be extremely high.

Hide in Plain Sight: There are at least six different versions of this ability, each of which applies in slightly different situations. But all of them let you use your Hide skill when you otherwise wouldn't be able. Since Hide is one of the most powerful skills available, this is something you really want to get.

Precision damage: As mentioned above, your primary role is not combat. However, many skillful classes end up getting some form of precision damage (sneak attack, skirmish, or sudden strike) anyway, and many folks enjoy throwing large numbers of d6s. The easiest way to optimize for precision damage is to dip into many different classes which gain it at first level. For instance, a rogue 1/spellthief 1/psychic rogue 1/ninja 1/scout 1/assassin 1 would be dealing 6d6 points of extra damage at level 6. Also useful is some means of doing things other than damage with your attacks, such as the Spellthief's magic-stealing abilities, the Crippling Strike rogue ability, or the ambush feats from Complete Scoundrel.

Skill Mastery: At mid to high levels, you need to consider worst-case scenarios for your skill checks, since if you can fail, eventually you will, and the consequences for failure can be severe or even lethal. Taking 10 on a skill check increases the worst-case scenario result by 9 points, making it almost as worthwhile as +9 to your skills.

Trapfinding: Essential for filling your primary role, and fortunately very easy to get, with many skillful classes gaining it at first level. You're likely, in fact, to pick it up multiple times, so you may want to trade out the extras for alternate class features, if available.

Classes:

Base:
Bard: Probably the best base class for a socially-oriented build. All of the social skills are in-class, you have Cha synergy with your spellcasting, and you have a variety of spells and class features (like Glibness and Fascinate) to enhance and complement your skill usage. But you also get a broad enough skill list that you don't have to just take social skills.

Expert: You obviously wouldn't choose Expert over a standard class. But if you have to take an NPC class for some reason, Expert at least gives a decent number of skill points and a class skill list as good as you like. You might conceivably take Expert if there's some rarely-used skill you want to max, and it's not on the skill list of any allowed class, but I have a hard time thinking of a specific situation.

Racial hit dice: In general, racial hit dice will hurt most characters, but Outsider, Dragon, and Fey RHD are all reasonable for a thief, since they all give a good number of skill points (class skills vary). Most races of those types come with LA attached, though.

Ranger: If you want high skills and BAB both, this is the easiest way to get them. The skill list is so-so, though: You get the stealth and awareness skills, but none of the social or trap skills. A highlight of the class at high levels is the Camouflage and Hide in Plain Sight abilities, both (ex), which let you hide regardless of cover or who's watching, so long as you're in natural terrain.

A powerful variant from Unearthed Arcana gives up the combat style feats for a limited form of Wildshape (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#ranger), which opens up many options. Another variant from Dungeonscape trades the ranger's tracking abilities for Trapfinding and Disable Device.

Rogue: The standard Core skillmonkey, you get access to all of the most important skills and a nearly unrivaled 8 points per level. The dead level at 20 is a peculiar design flaw, but not relevant in most games, and at any rate you still get your skill points. Still, you'll likely want to dip at least one level in Shadowdancer or some other useful class.

An interesting variant on the class is the Wilderness Rogue (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#rogueVariantWilderness Rogue), from Unearthed Arcana, which shifts the class skill list to a bit more like the ranger's, and adds a few special ability options. Notably, the wilderness rogue can get the ranger's version of Hide in Plain Sight four levels earlier than the ranger himself can.

Sorcerer/Wizard: Spells, of course, open up many options for a character, but sorcerer and wizard both get a fairly bland skill list, and a base of only two points per level. If you go this route, you'll want to go into Unseen Seer as soon as possible.

Beguiler (PHB2): This is the simplest option for combining skills with spellcasting. You get all of the important skills, 6 skill points per level, and trapfinding, in addition to full spellcasting. Your spells are all fairly similar (mostly illusions and enchantments), but you can pick freely between them, and they include many of the most useful out-of-combat spells, making Beguiler a very solid option for handling intrigue. If you go Beguiler, you'll probably want to stick with the class for all twenty levels, or at most a one-level dip in something else, since almost any multiclassing will mean sacrificing spells, skill points, or both.

Binder (ToM), Dragonfire Adept (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060912a&page=2) (DrM), Warlock (CArc): The unlimited-use nature of these classes' abilities may appeal to many of the same players as skillmonkey characters. Unfortunately, they each only have 2 skill points per level, and there's no good way to advance any of them with high skills. So unless you're using a homebrew or Gestalt rules, you should probably set these aside.

Cloistered Cleric (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#clericVariantCloistere dCleric) (UnArc): This variant of the cleric gives up some combat ability in exchange for getting six skill points a level and other abilities. Unfortunately, aside from all Knowledge skills, it's still got the same skill list as a standard cleric. You can either pick up class skills from domains such as Trickery or Kobold, or dip a more conventional skillmonkey class and take the Able Learner feat.

Factotum (Dun): Perhaps the best skillmonkey class in any book. All skills (including the odd ones like Autohypnosis and Iajitsu Focus) are class skills, and once per day per skill, you can add your class level as a bonus to a skill check. At third level, you get your Int bonus to all Str and Dex based skill and ability checks (including initiative checks), in addition to Str or Dex. The eighth level ability, Cunning Surge, lets you take extra standard actions in combat, which I personally think is too powerful. Unlike many, I do not actually recommend the Font of Inspiration feat: It's only really valuable if you take it many times, which cuts into the other feats available, and you won't be burning all that much inspiration if you don't use Cunning Surge.

Incarnate (MoI): Like most primarily magic-based classes, the Incarnate only has two skill points per level, but they have a fairly flat power curve: Most of what a 20th-level incarnate can do, a first-level incarnate can do, too, just not all at once. And several of their soulmelds boost skills, so it's a good class to dip. Don't take more than one level, though, before switching to Umbral Disciple.

Marshal (MiniHB): A single-level dip will get you a minor aura, which you can use to add your Charisma mod to yours and your allies' skills. Motivate Dexterity is of most use for a standard thief build, but Motivate Charisma is also good for a socially-oriented character. You might take as many as three levels, to get you a major aura (which isn't actually as good as the minor ones) and another minor, but with only four skill points and a lousy skill list, there's not much reason to take it any further than that.

Ninja (CAdv): Much like a rogue. The Ninja's variety of precision damage, Sudden Strike, isn't quite as good as Sneak Attack, and they get two fewer skill points per level, but in return, they get a variety of class features useful for avoiding detection (invisibility and spell resistance versus scrying), a Wisdom-based bonus to AC, and a few other benefits.

Psion (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/classes/psion.htm) (XPH): Like spellcasting, psionics adds options. Like most spellcasters, they also only get two skill points per level, so you'll want to go into Slayer and/or Elocator as soon as possible.

Psychic Rogue (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040723b) (web): With six skill points, Trapfinding, a good skill list, and special abilities similar to the rogue's at high level, the psychic rogue has the skillmonkey basics covered. They don't get very much manifesting, but their class power list covers most of the useful powers for their role, and you're not giving up much to gain them. Having access to psionics also opens up several other options. A solid choice.

Scout (CAdv): A wilderness-themed character, the Scout gets a full 8 skill points per level. Their class skill list is good (note that Disable Device was added in errata), but they're notably missing any Charisma-based skills, including Use Magic Device. Their precision damage is based on mobility rather than sneakery, and they also have several of the ranger's special abilities (including Camouflage and Hide in Plain Sight).

Spellthief (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20050107a) (CAdv): A very peculiar class. They have most of the skills of a rogue and Trapfinding, but most of the rest of their class features are based on magic, not on skill use. They can steal magic from others, and can eventually cast a little of their own. They're quite versatile if you have other casters in the party they can borrow spells from, or if you face spellcasting opponents often, but otherwise, there are probably better choices.

Swordsage (ToB): The Swordsage gets six skill points a level and enough good skills to spend them on (though they're missing several good ones, and don't have Trapfinding). The primary reason to take the class, though, is the maneuvers, melee abilities similar to spells which are mostly useful in combat. They're probably the best of the skillmonkey classes at fighting, and some of their maneuvers are useful out-of-combat, too.

Prestige:

Arcane Trickster: As a great Mon Calamari once said, "It's a trap!" (and you should have been able to notice that, seeing as you have Trapfinding). A rogue-based class that gives full Sneak Attack progression but only four skill points per level is like a wizard-based class that gives full familiar advancement but only half spellcasting. For a wizard/rogue hybrid, the class you're looking for is the Unseen Seer. The only situation I would recommend this class is if you can qualify as a spellthief, since they can actually do something useful with their Sneak Attack dice.

Assassin: Good skill set, reasonable number of points, special abilities that mesh well with sneakiness, and a smattering of spells, this is the best rogue prestige class you'll find in the core rules. You'll always want to have a back-up plan for your death attack, though, since the save DC doesn't end up being all that high. The alignment restriction is problematic, since most PCs are non-evil, but that can be changed easily enough with DM cooperation, as illustrated by the Avenger (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070401a)

Shadowdancer: The best non-evil prestige class in the core books. In a core-only game, a one-level dip is worthwhile for a rogue to pick up Hide in Plain Sight. Once you start adding splatbooks, though, there are enough other worthwhile feats to take that the prereqs start looking pretty onerous, and there are enough other ways to get Hide in Plain Sight that it's not worthwhile any more. The higher-level abilities mostly just give you what you already have, so even core-only, there's little reason to take more than one.

Chameleon (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20041210b&page=1) (RoD): Unmatched versatility. If you're going to dip into this class, the logical jumping-off point is level 2, when you get the changeable bonus feat. This can, for instance, be used on Open Minded, to be trained in a different skill every day. You also get spellcasting, which can come from any class list, and eventually boosts to your ability scores. It only gives four skill points, though. Just as a note, the Adapatation section at the end specifically says that the class (and the Able Learner feat) should also be allowed for changelings, if you're using them, for the ultimate in day-to-day mutability.

Elocator (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/prestigeClasses/elocater.htm) (XPH): The class of choice for combining psionic and skillful base classes. You lose a couple of manifester levels, but the skills stay good. You also get a variety of mobility-related abilities, which may make Scout a better base class to work from than Rogue.

Exemplar (CAdv): The class for anyone who's really, really good at some skill. The number of skill points (8) and the class skill list (all of them) both can't be beat. The prerequisites are easy, though relatively high-level. The biggest reason to take this class is Skill Mastery at level 1, but you also get a fair number of other skill-related abilities. Skill Artistry gives you a +4 bonus to one or more skills, but it's a competence bonus, so isn't all that useful. And the Persuasive Performance ability at level 4 can be used either for horrible game-breaking, or for flavorful fun, depending on what skill you use it with.

Heir of Siberys (ECS): All class skills from any of your classes remain class skills for Heir of Siberys, but you only get 2 points per level. The real reason to take this class, though, is that at 2nd level, if you choose the Mark of Sentinel, you can get Mind Blank 1/day (or other spells from other marks, but those aren't as useful to a thief). The third and final level gives another use of it, but that's not really needed, since Mind Blank lasts all day.

[Illithid] Slayer (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/prestigeClasses/slayer.htm) (XPH): This class has a lot going for it, but what we're most interested in is the 6th-level ability, Cerebral Blind. Good stealth skills combined with the Darkstalker feat can make you effectively immune to nonmagical detection; Cerebral Blind covers the magical side. Unfortunately, it only gives four skill points per level, but you can't have everything. In the Expanded Psionic Handbook, this class is called the Illithid Slayer, and includes a prerequisite that you kill an illithid one-on-one, but for copyright reasons the version on the SRD removes illithids both from the requirements and the name.

Umbral Disciple (MoI): You don't strictly need a level of Incarnate to enter this class, but it makes it much more worthwhile. You gain some extra essentia to power soulmelds, while also gaining six skill points a level and a solid skill list. You also get assorted shadow-related abilities, the best of which is Embrace of Shadow, at 3rd, which gives you both concealment and Hide in Plain Sight.

Uncanny Trickster (CScoun): This class has two things going for it. On the one hand, it gives you bonus skill tricks, which are of course useful. More importantly, though, it lets you advance some other class's features while maintaining 8 skill points per level and a roguelike skill list. This provides an excellent way to incorporate non-skillful classes into a build.

Unseen Seer (CMage): This is what Arcane Trickster should have been. Like Arcane Trickster, Unseen Seer gives full spellcasting advancement, but the entry requirements are much more flexible, and it gives six skill points per level. You also get to add divination spells from other classes to your list. The only real drawback is that some key skills are missing from the class skill list, such as Open Locks and Disable Device.

Chronos
2008-08-22, 05:50 PM
Feats:

Improved Initiative: Going first in combat is useful for anyone, but it's especially useful when you have class abilities that are based on the enemy being flat-footed. Remember, a combatant is flat-footed until he takes his first action in combat, which isn't until his initiative count.

Nimble Fingers: One of many core feats which gives +2 each to a pair of skills, Nimble Fingers is only worth mentioning because its bonus applies to two of the more useful ones. In an all-books environment, there are better things to get than a small static bonus, but there's frankly not much competition in core.

Silent Spell: If you're planning on casting spells, this is a very good idea. Not only will you not break your stealth with a silent spell, but you can cast within any Silence spell you may have put up.

Skill Focus: If +2 to two different skills isn't worthwhile, then +3 to a single one probably isn't, either. But Skill Focus often shows up as a prerequisite or bonus feat, and it at least gives you some benefit.

Stealthy: See Nimble Fingers. Hide and Move Silently are also both good skills, but there are better ways to spend a feat.

Two-Weapon Fighting: Having lots of bonus damage makes it a good idea to get in as many attacks as possible. This isn't a bad feat to take if you've already gotten all you need for your non-combat role.

Weapon Finesse: Your Dex is probably much higher than your Str, so if you plan on fighting in melee, this feat will be very useful.

Able Learner (RoD): This feat lets you buy cross-class skill points at normal cost, instead of double. Maximum ranks in a skill, meanwhile, depends only on whether it's a class skill for any of your classes, so with this feat, if something's once a class skill, it's always a class skill. This can make some multiclass combinations a lot more viable.

Bonus Essentia (MoI): If you're dabbling at all in Incarnum, this will give your soulmelds and other essentia-powered abilities more oomph. The various incarnum feats can also be used for this purpose, but they lack flexibility.

Craven (CoR): The best feat out there for optimizing Sneak Attack. If you have any Sneak Attack at all, this feat will add one damage for every character level (even levels in classes without SA). Further, since it's a fixed bonus instead of dice, it also gets multiplied by crits and the like.

Darkstalker (LoM): If you could only take one feat, this would be it. You want to be able to sneak past all senses, not just sight and hearing. This feat makes you just as hard to smell, echolocate, or the like as it is to see or hear you.

Deadly Precision (XPH): This might look tempting at first, but even if you're making precision damage a priority, it's still lousy. The average damage increase due to this feat works out to less than 0.42 points per die, about a fifth of the benefit from Craven.

Greater Manyshot (XPH): Lets you make multiple attacks with precision damage attached, while still moving in the round. If you want to throw a lot of d6s, this isn't a bad way to do it.

Martial Study (ToB): Lets you add a maneuver from the Tome of Battle to your book of tricks, without needing any levels in an initiator class. It might be easier just to take a level of Swordsage, though. See the Sublime Maneuvers section, under Magic, below.

Master Spellthief (CScoun): It may seem tempting to take a single level of Spellthief with this feat, but it doesn't give you as much as it might seem. It advances the level of spell you can steal, but not the level of spell you can store and subsequently use yourself. So a Spellthief 1/other class X with this feat can't make use of a stolen spell of any level higher than 1st. It could still be worthwhile if you're taking more levels of Spellthief, though.

Nymph's Kiss (BoED): This feat gives you two benefits, either of which would be worth the feat by itself. First, it gives you an extra skill point at every level, and second, it gives a +2 to all of your Cha-based skills. If your DM will let you take this at first level, by all means go for it. Many DMs won't waive the requirement, or let you write a fey significant other into your starting backstory, which may rule this feat out, but if you do ever get the opportunity to take it, do so as soon as possible, because the extra skill points aren't retroactive.

Obtain Familiar (CArc): Familiars are fun for everyone, but they're extremely valuable for a skillmonkey, if you can qualify for one. A familiar has all of your skill ranks, which means that you effectively add another skillmonkey character to your party. It can serve as a lookout or second-story-critter, or if nothing else can use Aid Another to give you a free +2 to almost all of your own skill checks. Plus, of course, it gives you Alertness, and some other benefit depending on the creature chosen.

Open Minded (XPH, CAdv): A fairly straightforward feat, which gives you five skill points to spend however you'd like. And you can always use more of those.

Practiced Manifester (CPsi), Practiced Spellcaster (CArc): If you're dabbling in a magical or psionic class, these feats are good for bringing your caster or manifester level up a bit. Practiced Manifester is particularly useful, since it increase how much you can augment a power, and has the side effect of increasing your number of power points.

Psicrystal Affinity (XPH): See Obtain Familiar. Psicrystal Affinity has the advantage of being slightly easier to qualify for, but the disadvantage that a little crystal with spindly legs is a lot more ridiculous than an animal that follows you around. You might want to ask your DM if you can re-fluff this one.

Psymbiot (CPsi): Gives a +2 untyped bonus to all skill checks (and ability checks, and saves) so long as you're psionically focused and there's another psionic creature near you. If you can qualify for this feat, and there's another psionic character in your party, this feat is a no-brainer (or is that a two-brainer?). Otherwise, of course, it won't do you much good.

Quick Reconnoiter (CAdv): Lets you actively look and listen for things as a free action, once per round, plus also gives you a bonus to initiative, which is always useful.

Savvy Rogue (CScoun): If you have rogue special abilities, this makes them better, and if you get more special abilities, it applies to the new ones, too. Great if you're sticking with rogue for most of your levels, but not so much help if you're multiclassed.

Shape Soulmeld (MoI): Lets you pick up a soulmeld, without needing any levels in Incarnate. Some melds are well worth a feat, and you can power them up further if you have any essentia. See Soulmelds, under Magic, below.

Magic:

A note: There are many spells which are just plain great for anyone. I'm not listing these here; refer to any of the perennial "What's your favorite spell" threads or your favorite wizard guide for those. This section is dedicated to those spells and other magical options which work particularly well for skillmonkeys, due to synergy with skills or other class features.
Spells:

Acid Splash: An easy way to get ranged touch attacks to apply precision damage to, and since it's a 0th-level spell, wands of it are cheap.

Antimagic Field: Most of the nifty things other characters do depend on magic. Most of the nifty things you do don't. So if you can arrange to have an antimagic field up, you have an edge.

Blur: You need concealment to hide, and this spell gives you concealment. It's better than Invisibility, since you can keep it if you attack, and it's better than Improved Invisibility, since it's lower-level and therefore cheaper.

Cat's Grace: Improves Dex, and therefore improves Dex-based skills. It's an enhancement bonus, though, which means it's rendered obsolete at higher levels by Gloves of Dexterity.

Detect Magic: Interesting things in D&D tend to be magical, so this spell lets you find interesting things. This could mean easily noticing a magical trap, or picking out the best loot at a glance.

Detect Poison: Like Detect Magic, can be used to find some traps, since many traps involve poison of some form.

Disguise Self: Together with a few ranks in Disguise, you can realistically fool even intimate associates.

Find Traps: If you don't have the Trapfinding class feature already, this will give it to you. More importantly, it also gives up to a +10 insight bonus on your search checks.

Glibness: A +30 bonus on Bluff is an almost guaranteed success, even for preposterous claims. Best of all, it's untyped, which means that it stacks with all other bonuses.

Grease: Creatures in a Greased area must make balance checks, and anyone with less than 5 ranks in balance is considered flat-footed while doing so. This is good if you want to Sneak Attack them.

Heroism/Greater Heroism: A +2 or +4 morale bonus to many different things, including skill checks. Not the most powerful buff, but a very versatile one.

Hide from Animals: Many animals have Scent, and many also have decent Listen/Spot scores, so enemies might use trained animals to try to detect thieves. If you don't have Darkstalker, this is a good way to avoid them, since it stops all forms of detection.

Invisibility/Greater Invisibility: Very useful at low levels, but at high levels, you can do better with just plain Hide. Remember, it's only a DC 20 Spot check to notice the presence of an invisible creature. That still doesn't tell anyone precisely who or where you are, but you'd rather they didn't know you were there at all. For best results, combine invisibility with Hide, since it gives a +20 to your check.

Knock: Opens locks. Its main limitations, compared to the skill, are that the skill can be used as many times as needed, and can be used in antimagic zones. On the other hand, the spell doesn't require a roll.

Mage Hand: Can be used to grab a key off of a hook out of your reach, or to unlock a door from the other side, or sneak something off of a shelf while someone isn't paying attention. Not the most powerful spell in the world, but that's why it's a cantrip.

Magic Aura: Perfect for a thief who doesn't want to light up like a Christmas tree under Detect Magic or similar. Magical auras always draw attention, and you don't want attention.

Mind Blank: Near-total protection against divinations, which can prevent your sneakery from being magically discovered. Unfortunately, it's high level, so it's probably out of reach unless you're an Unseen Seer or your party's wizard is very free with his spell slots.

Moment of Prescience: Another high-level spell, but which can be used to gain a very large bonus to a single check. Good if you have to be absolutely sure you'll succeed.

Nondetection: Effectively provides spell resistance versus detection and location magic. It's only a 50-50 chance of protection versus an equal-level caster, but it's better than nothing.

Produce Flame: Another touch attack usable with precision damage. If you get it at a higher caster level than 1st, it can be used to make ranged touch full attacks. Since the flames are thrown, it also gets the halfling's bonus to thrown weapons.

Reduce Person: An excellent buff, for you. You gain dex, an additional bonus to Hide checks, AC, and attack rating, all of an uncommon bonus type (size), so it stacks with almost everything else.

Ray of Frost: Another cheap ranged-touch attack. Acid Splash is usually better, since it doesn't allow spell resistance, and fewer things resist acid, but some things do resist acid, or are vulnerable to cold. Heck, they're cheap, get a wand of each.

Shrink Item: This spell has many, many uses, but the two most relevant to us here are smuggling out stolen items, and smuggling in useful tools.

Silence: Completely stops all sound. The biggest disadvantage is that you can't customize the shape, so you might give yourself away if someone notices the sudden absence of background noise. One way to mitigate this is to cast it on the end of a 14-foot long rope, and drag it behind you. A nice side effect of this spell is that spells with verbal components can't be cast in an area of magical silence, so it can cripple spellcasters.

Divine Agility (SC): This spell provides an enhancement bonus, which is disappointing, but at +10, it's larger than you'll get from any other source, so it's still worthwhile.

Divine Insight (SC): An insight bonus of up to +15 on any skill check is very good for a second-level spell, and it can be cast long before it's needed.

Guidance of the Avatar (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/sb/sb20010504a) (web): A competence bonus, and it only affects one check, but it can apply to any skill, so it's versatile.

Improvisation (SC): Gives a luck bonus of up to half your caster level on four skill checks (or other rolls), at the price of a mere first-level spell. Unfortunately, the duration is very short, so you have to know when you'll need it.

Voice of the Dragon (SC): A +10 bonus to Diplomacy, Bluff, and Intimidate is invaluable for a socially-oriented character. And, most unusually for a spell which boosts skills, it's an enhancement bonus, so it'll stack with most other effects.


Psionic powers (XPH):

Note: I'm not including any powers in this listing which are just psionic versions of spells listed above. If a spell is good, assume the corresponding power is, too.

Animal Affinity: Like Cat's Grace and related spells, this gives you a boost to ability scores, but it's more versatile, since the same power can affect any score. The only drawback is that you can only use it on yourself.

Call to Mind: A nice boost to Knowledge checks, letting you re-attempt a re-try with a +4 bonus.

Chameleon: The +10 bonus to Hide is nice; the fact that it's an enhancement bonus instead of competence is even nicer, since it stacks with most other bonuses.

Compression: Similar to Reduce Person. The advantages to Compression are that it can be used with any creature type, and it can be augmented to shrink two size categories (doubling the bonuses). The disadvantages are that it can only be used on yourself, and (unless you augment it) it's shorter duration.

Concealing Amorpha: Like Blur, this gives you concealment, enabling you to hide. Unlike Blur, it's not an illusion, which makes it a little less vulnerable to some forms of detection.

Control Light: Dimming the ambient light gives a bonus to Hide checks. It's only +4, but it's a circumstance bonus, so it always stacks.

Control Sound: In addition to giving yourself a circumstance bonus to Move Silently, you can also use this power to create a distraction or mislead someone.

Escape Detection: Similar to Nondetection, but personal only.

Personal Mind Blank: Just like Mind Blank, but because it's personal-only, it's slightly cheaper.

Precognition/Greater Precognition: Gives you a +2 or +4 insight bonus to a single skill check or other roll, and can be cast some time in advance.


Soulmelds (MoI):

Disenchanter Mask: To the extent that Detect Magic is good, having a continual Detect Magic always active is also good. But there are other uses for your face soulmeld slot.

Dissolving Spittle: An at-will ranged touch attack, which can be used to deliver precision damage.

Enigma Helm: Nondetection isn't bad, but your meldshaper level is probably going to be too low to make this worth bothering with.

Fellmist Robe: Provides concealment. The miss chance isn't very much without a lot of essentia, but that's not why we're interested in concealment, anyway.

Great Raptor Mask: The bonus to Spot would be nice, but it's a competence bonus. Get Keeneye Lenses instead.

Keeneye Lenses: Only gives a bonus to one skill (Spot), but it starts at +4, and it's an insight bonus.

Kruthik Claws, Worg Pelt: These look very appealing at first glance, but don't bother. The bonus to Hide and Move Silently is a competence bonus, so it won't even stack with a Cloak and Boots of Elvenkind.

Lucky Dice: The bonus provided by Lucky Dice can apply to almost anything, and it's a luck bonus, one of the less common types, but it's only +1. And it takes up the same slot as Theft Gloves. So don't bother unless you have absolutely no idea what you'll need.

Necrocarnum Touch: If you're evil, this is an effective choice, since the +4 bonus to Sleight of Hand is the rare Profane type. Unfortunately, unlike most soulmelds, esssentia doesn't increase the bonus any further (instead giving you a touch attack).

Silvertongue Mask: If you're planning on using social skills, the +2 insight bonus to Bluff and Diplomacy may come in handy.

Strongheart Vest: It's a scientifically-proven fact that the thief is the member of the party most likely to get poisoned. Most poisons deal ability damage, and the Strongheart Vest decreases ability damage, so you don't end up like poor Black Leaf.

Theft Gloves: A very useful meld, which gives an insight bonus to three of your important skills (Disable Device, Open Lock, and Sleight of Hand).

Truthseeker Goggles: Insight bonus to Gather Information, Sense Motive, and Search. Good for social situations, or if you're expecting a lot of traps (pair with Theft Gloves for disarming them).


Sublime maneuvers (ToB):

Assassin's Stance: Gives you +2d6 Sneak Attack. Many PrCs designed for rogues require SA; this is a good way to pick up some if you wouldn't otherwise have it in your build.

Child of Shadow: Yet another way to gain concealment. It doesn't help you hide if you're being observed (you need Hide in Plain Sight for that), but it does grant the other benefits of concealment.

Cloak of Deception: A swift action to become briefly invisible. It only lasts a round, but that might be enough to do whatever you need to do (such as get to a better hiding place).

Island of Blades: Lets you and an ally count as flanking, as long as you're both adjacent to a foe, providing (among other benefits) an easy way to trigger Sneak Attack.

Stalker in the Night: Lets you make an attack from hiding, while remaining hidden at no penalty.

Chronos
2008-08-22, 05:52 PM
Items:

Adamantine (special material): Keep at least one adamantine tool available, even if it's just a small knife, for cutting through barriers and the like.

Amulet of Proof against Detection and Location: A nice thought, but by the time you can afford it, the CL is too low to provide any meaningful protection.

Bag of Holding: The standard extradimensional space, for carrying more loot than your strength would allow. And you like loot, don't you?

Boots of Elvenkind: Cheaper than Silent Moves armor, but they also take up a body slot, and can't be upgraded to a higher bonus. They might be a bit easier to find, though.

Circlet of Persuasion: Provides a bonus to all of your Cha-based skills, but it's only +3. Worthwhile if you can't get any better competence bonus, and you use multiple Cha-based skills.

Cloak of Elvenkind: Goes with the boots. Again, it's cheaper than shadow armor, but can't be upgraded to a higher bonus.

Daggers, assorted: A light, finesseable weapon, which can be easily concealed, and can be wielded in melee or thrown. Keep several, so they won't all be found if you're searched, so you can keep on throwing them in a fight, and so you can bypass multiple kinds of damage reduction. Get one or two of them enchanted, possible with the Returning property.

Disguise Kit: A mundane item to boost the effectiveness of your disguises.

Dust of Disappearance: A very powerful form of invisibility, negated only by Dust of Appearance. You're taking a gamble on the duration, though.

Dust of Tracelessness: For erasing evidence that you've been snooping about in an old tomb, abandoned dungeon, or the like. Not much use in a regularly-used area, though, unless you want to impugn the capabilities of the cleaning staff. Cheap enough to buy a few doses for the situations where you do want it.

Elixir of Hiding, Elixir of Sneaking: Good for the occasional situation where you have to be stealthier than usual, if you can't yet afford good Shadow/Silent Moves armor. An individual dose is only 250 GP for each.

Elixir of Vision: 250 GP will buy you an hour's peace of mind while searching for traps. Use it when your intuition tells you there's a trap, but you can't find it normally.

Gloves of Dexterity: Boosting your dexterity is a simple way to boost most of your most important skills, as well as a few other benefits (AC, attack rolls, reflex saves).

Glove of Storing: Like a small Bag of Holding, but much more easily accessed. Would be a very useful item, if it didn't take up the same slot as the essential Gloves of Dexterity. If you're getting items custom-made, consider getting both enchantments put on a glove.

Goggles of Minute Seeing: A +5 competence bonus to Search, when used to find traps and other concealed objects. The price is half of normal for a +5 competence item, presumably because it doesn't cover all uses of the Search skill, but it's still good for the most important uses.

Grappling Hook: Good for getting past walls, cliffs, and the like, which are often annoyingly in the way of you getting to treasure.

Hand of the Mage: 900 GP is a bargain, for a useful cantrip at-will.

[Heward's] Handy Haversack: Cheaper than the cheapest Bag of Holding, and also more convenient, since the item you're looking for is always on top. The drawback is that it's smaller, but it's still big enough to carry a great deal of equipment.

Hat of Disguise: A cheap way to get a useful level 1 spell at will.

Ioun Stone (pale green prism): Pricey and only gives a +1 bonus, but it applies to almost all rolls, and doesn't take up a body slot. Plus, having a crystal orbiting around your head is just cool. Go ahead and get one if you're rich.

Lantern, bullseye: If you must have light, at least only have it in the direction that you need it. It's better to have darkvision, but that's not always an option.

Lens of Detection: A +5 bonus to Search and Survival is pretty good, when it's an untyped bonus (and therefore stacks with everything).

Luck Blade: The main reason to get one of these is the once/day re-roll of any single roll, in case a check goes badly against you. This ability works as long as you own it, even if it's stashed in your backpack, but you can also use it as a weapon. Get one without any Wishes, to keep the price down.

Luckstone: The bonus granted is small, but it applies to almost everything, and it's a luck bonus, so it'll stack with most other bonuses. A slightly better deal than the ioun stone.

Lyre of Building: Excellent for a bard, who can probably make the DC 18 Perform check effortlessly, to keep using it for as long as needed. Plus it gives you an excuse to say "We built this city on rock and roll".

Magnifying Glass: Before you can afford a Lens of Detection, get the nonmagical version.

Manual of Quickness of Action: Eventually, you'll probably want to permanently boost your dexterity.

Mule: Before you can afford a Handy Haversack, buy a pack mule to carry your loot. You have a low strength, so only carry the things you'll need quickly or on short notice on your person.

Portable Hole: The largest of the standard extradimensional storage spaces, a Portable Hole is practically a small room. It's significantly more expensive than a Bag of Holding, though.

Ring of Chameleon Power: Can replace a Hat of Disguise, but rings are a very valuable body slot. The bonus to Hide is a competence bonus, and therefore won't stack with most other hiding equipment. There are better options.

Ring of Invisibility: Would be useful, except that there's a relatively narrow window between when it becomes reasonably affordable and when True Seeing starts becoming a serious issue. Work on improving Hide, instead.

Robe of Blending: A nice idea, but you can get the same bonus from shadow armor and a hat of disguise for cheaper, or a significantly better bonus for only a trace more expense.

Rope, silk: As a great halfling once said, "Rope! I knew I'd want it, if I hadn't got it!". Silk instead of hemp is to cut down on weight.

Scrolls of any of the useful spells listed above

Shadow armor property: Up to a +15 competence bonus on Hide. It's a flat price, not an equivalent plus value, so it's effectively slotless

Silent Moves armor property: Up to a +15 competence bonus on Move Silently. Like Shadow, a flat price.

Staff of Size Alteration: Multiple useful spells, but nothing that you couldn't get from a wand. You're paying extra for caster level that you might not need.

Studded Leather Armor, Masterwork: Relatively cheap, and has no armor check penalty. Get it enchanted with various magical properties, including Shadow and Silent Moves.

Thieves' Tools, Masterwork: A cheap +2 bonus, that stacks with everything, to some of your most-used tools.

Tome of Clear Thought: Permanent bonuses are especially important for Intelligence, since a temporary bonus won't increase your skill points gained at each level. This will.

Tool, Masterwork: These are all subject to DM discretion. But ask if you can get a masterwork tool for all of the skills you use. You've got room for them in your Haversack.

Wands of any of the useful spells listed above

Camouflage Kit (CAdv): A masterwork tool for the Hide skill, which costs a mere 4 GP per use. It's not clear how long the bonus lasts, though.

Choker of Eloquence (CAdv): A neckpiece which grants a +5 or +10 bonus on Diplomacy, Bluff, and Perform (Sing). Since it's a competence bonus, it won't stack with a Circlet of Persuasion.

Collar of Umbral Metamorphosis (ToM): Grants the Dark template, for up to 10 minutes per day (10,800 GP) or continuously (22,000 GP). The template itself still has its uses, since it can't be taken away or dispelled, doesn't require a body slot, and works in an antimagic field. But if you don't already have the template, this is a great item to get.

Crystal Mask of Insightful Detection (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/items/universalItems.htm#crystalMaskofInsightfulDetectio n): A decent-sized insight bonus to two different useful skills

Dorjes (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/items/dorjes.htm) (XPH) of any useful psionic powers

Hidden blades (CScoun): Complete Scoundrel provides rules for hidden blades, if you didn't already houserule or abstract over how to do them.

Longspoon thieves' tools, masterwork (CAdv): Lets you work from up to five feet away, thus hopefully avoiding many traps. If you get the masterwork version, the only drawback is that they take a little longer to use.

Panic Button of Flexing (CScoun): Provides a +5 untyped bonus on all Dex-based skills, but only lasts for one round, and can only be used once. Probably not worth the 750 GP price, unless you're very desperate.

Power Stones (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/items/powerStones.htm) (XPH) of any useful psionic powers

Ring, Filcher's Friend (CAdv): +5 competence bonus to Sleight of Hand checks involving metal, and can draw small metal objects towards it.

Shadow Silk (special material) (ToM): A nonmagical armor material that gives a +2 untyped bonus to Hide and Move Silently. As if that wasn't enough, it's also extremely lightweight, and can automatically repair damage to itself. Yes, please. The only drawback is that it can't be used to make a chain shirt.

Skin of the Chameleon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/items/universalItems.htm#skinoftheChameleon) (XPH): An unslotted item which gives +10 to hide. Like the Chameleon power, it's a rare enhancement bonus.

Third Eye: Conceal (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/items/universalItems.htm#conceal) (XPH): Continual Mind Blank is an obviously useful ability, since it protects you from magical information-gathering and other effects. It comes at a very steep price, though. Get one if you're rich and don't have any easier way of getting Mind Blank or the equivalent.


Sample builds:

All of these builds are based on the assumption of 25-point-buy, that being the equivalent of the elite array or the 4d6 drop lowest method. If your stats differ from this (either via luck of the dice or a different point-buy value), scores can be adjusted.

The Core-only thief:

Halfling (or goblin) rogue 12/shadowdancer 1/rogue 7
Ability scores:
Str 10
Dex 16 plus all level-up points
Con 12
Int 14
Wis 10
Cha 11 (or 9, if goblin)

Feats:
1 Improved Initiative
3 Stealthy
6 Combat Reflexes
9 Dodge
12 Mobility
15 Two-Weapon Fighting
18 Quick Draw

Special abilities:
10 Skill Mastery (Disable Device, Hide, Move Silently, Search, Sleight of Hand)
14 Slippery Mind
17 Defensive Roll
20 Crippling Strike

Combat Reflexes, Dodge, and Mobility are included solely as prerequisites for Shadowdancer. They're not too onerous, though, since most feats are only useful for combat, which we're trying to avoid, so there aren't very many we need to pick up in a core-only environment.

At level 20, this build can reach bonuses of +43 to Hide, +41 Move Silently, +26 Search, +28 Disable Device, and +35 Sleight of Hand, assuming reasonable equipment, without needing to expend anything.

With these starting scores, you'll probably want to buy a Tome of Leadership +1 to even out that Cha score.

The Holy Roller:

Human ninja 1/cloistered cleric 19

Ability scores:
Str 8
Dex 14
Con 10
Int 14
Wis 16
Cha 9

Feats:
H: Able Learner
1: Darkstalker
(six others)

Domains:
Knowledge
(two others)

The single level of Ninja gives you Trapfinding and all the standard skillmonkey skills as class skills, and the Able Learner feat means that they stay class skills (we could also have used Rogue, Scout, Beguiler, Factotum, or Spellthief for this). You'll be a little shorter on skill points than a straight rogue (9 total per level), but in return, you gain 19 levels of cleric spellcasting. In addition, you'll get your Wis mod (which any cleric should be getting as high as possible) added as a bonus to your AC.

Able Learner is needed to make this build work, and Knowledge is a bonus domain from Cloistered Cleric; all other feats and domains are open to variation. You could pick up mostly roguish feats, or take metamagic feats like a standard cleric (though you probably still want Nymph's Kiss, if you're eligible, and Darkstalker). Prestige classes are not recommended for this build, since you'd lose spellcasting, skills, or both, but you're already filling two full party roles, so they shouldn't be necessary anyway.


The Dungeon-Delver:

Human factotum 3/psychic rogue 1/incarnate 1/umbral disciple 1/ranger 1/factotum +1/slayer 1/uncanny trickster 1/umbral disciple +2/uncanny trickster +2/marshal 1/exemplar 1/slayer +4/factotum +1
Oh, just look at the table.

Ability scores:
Str 8
Dex 12
Con 13
Int 16 plus all level-up points
Wis 8
Cha 14

{table=head]level | class | skills | feats | special
1 | Factotum 1|40|Able Learner, Nymph's Kiss|Cunning Insight, Cunning Knowledge, trapfinding
2|Factotum 2|10||Arcane Dilettante
3|Factotum 3|10|Darkstalker|Brains over Brawn
4|PsiRogue 1|10||Sneak Attack, powers
5|Incarnate 1|6||2 soulmelds, 1 essentia
6|Umbral Disciple 1|10|Psicrystal Affinity|2 essentia, sept knowledge, step of the bodiless
7|Ranger 1|10|Track|Favored Enemy, Wild Empathy
8|Factotum 4|11||Cunning Strike
9|Slayer 1|9|Obtain Familiar|Favored Enemy, Enemy Sense
10|Uncanny Trickster 1|13||Bonus trick
11|Umbral Disciple 2|11||Sneak attack 2d6
12|Umbral Disciple 3|11|Practiced Manifester|3 essentia, embrace of shadow
13|Uncanny Trickster 2|13||(advance Slayer) Bonus trick, brain nausea
14|Uncanny Trickster 3|13||(advance Slayer) Bonus trick, Lucid Buffer
15|Marshal 1|9|Craven, Skill Focus: Diplomacy|Minor aura (motivate dex)
16|Exemplar 1|14||Skill mastery, skill artistry (sleight of hand)
17|Slayer 2|10||Favored enemy
18|Slayer 3|10|Bonus Essentia|
19|Slayer 4|10||Cerebral blind
20|Factotum 5|12||Opportunistic Piety[/table]

This is a build that can hit any DC you throw at it, in any of the skills useful in dungeoneering. With reasonable equipment, you can get +63 Hide, +61 Move Silently, +43 Search, +50 Disable Device, +58 Sleight of Hand (and Skill Mastery in all of those), or much more if you're willing to burn psionic powers, spell slots, wands, or other expendable resources. In addition, your Hide also applies against most nonmagical means of detection, you can hide in plain sight and provide your own concealment, and you're all but impossible to find magically.

This is of course an illustration of how much freedom a skillmonkey has in mixing and matching classes. The order of most of the levels can be shuffled around; this order gave what I considered the higher-priority abilities earlier, but that can vary based on circumstances.



Pitfalls:

Other skill users: High skills can always be defeated by other, similarly high skills. The skill to especially fear is Spot, since it can defeat both Hide and Sleight of Hand. 'Ware druids and dragons: Both have Spot as class skills and tend to max it; druids are already going to be getting their Wisdom as high as possible anyway, for a further good modifier, and dragons have a very large number of HD and good skills per level, so they'll always have more ranks than you. Other thief-types can also have impressive Spot scores. This doesn't mean that you can never get away with dealing with such opponents, but it does mean that you'll want to be very, very careful with them, planning things out in advance, and not hesitating to use expendable resources like elixirs and scrolls if needed.

Bonus types: You obviously want items, spells, and other benefits which give bonuses to skills, but keep an eye on the bonus types. In general, two bonuses of the same type to the same thing don't stack: Only the better one applies. This means that a bonus is useless to you if you already have something else that gives a larger bonus of the same type, and almost useless if you already have something that gives a bonus nearly as large. Most bonuses that apply directly to skills are competence bonuses, and most bonuses to ability scores are enhancement bonuses, so these bonus types are the least valuable (since they're so likely to overlap). Insight, luck, and morale bonuses are less common, and thus more valuable, while the most valuable bonuses are the extremely rare ones like sacred or profane; circumstance bonuses, which contrary to the general rule always stack as long as they come from different circumstances; and bonuses for which no particular type is given, which always stack as long as they're from different sources.

ShneekeyTheLost
2008-08-22, 06:12 PM
A point: Elves also get an auto-search ability which is VERY handy for a skillmonkey-on-the-go. Don't even need to bother declaring you are searching for secret/concealed doors, you do it automatically.

Also, Swordsage gets 6 skill points per level, and has all the stealth skills (hide, move silently), all the detection skills (listen, spot, search) and even social skills (bluff), making it a solid skillmonkey class, particularly if you go heavy into Shadow Hand. In fact, you can be a very effective melee combatant and STILL be a very good skillmonkey, using your Dex for damage while in a Shadow Hand stance (which should be always). Island of Blades makes for very good synergy with flanking and precision damage.

Even if you don't want to be a Swordsage forever, a two level dip nets you a LOT of useful things, including Island of Blades to make precision damage more effective, Dex to damage, Wis to AC even in light armor (like Mithral Chain), and still has plenty of skill points to keep bases covered.

Also, my 'sneak suit', which any rogue would appreciate:

+1 Mithral Chain Shirt Shadowed, Silent Moves

It gives most armor for your buck, with a high enough dex mod that it won't hamper most skillmonkeys. It is light armor, so Swordsages still get their Wis bonus to AC. It negates the need to tie up slots on feet and cloak to get stealth up. Boots of Speed or Levitation are far more useful, and there are MANY cloaks out there that are extremely valuable to a rogue.

Chronicled
2008-08-22, 06:18 PM
Nice work, Chronos. This is a solid guide, and fills a lot of holes left by the current crop of guides at the Wizards forums.

Saph
2008-08-22, 06:30 PM
Nice guide!

You missed out one of my favourite core low-level skillmonkey items, though; the Goggles of Minute Seeing. At only 1,250 gold for a +5 bonus to Search, they're a great way to kick up your chances of finding traps and secret doors.

- Saph

monty
2008-08-22, 06:35 PM
Very impressive. If I make a skillmonkey in the future, I'll certainly be referring to this.

Chronos
2008-08-22, 07:13 PM
A point: Elves also get an auto-search ability which is VERY handy for a skillmonkey-on-the-go. Don't even need to bother declaring you are searching for secret/concealed doors, you do it automatically.
True, but searching for traps is usually a lot more important. Still, I'll add a mention of it.


Also, Swordsage gets 6 skill points per level, and has all the stealth skills (hide, move silently), all the detection skills (listen, spot, search) and even social skills (bluff), making it a solid skillmonkey class, particularly if you go heavy into Shadow Hand. In fact, you can be a very effective melee combatant and STILL be a very good skillmonkey, using your Dex for damage while in a Shadow Hand stance (which should be always). Island of Blades makes for very good synergy with flanking and precision damage.Huh, I thought I'd included them. I must have gotten a little too trigger-happy with the delete button somewhere along the way.


You missed out one of my favourite core low-level skillmonkey items, though; the Goggles of Minute Seeing. At only 1,250 gold for a +5 bonus to Search, they're a great way to kick up your chances of finding traps and secret doors.OK, I'll add them. I hadn't noticed the low price.

Keep the suggestions coming-- I'm sure there are some splatbook spells and items I'm overlooking, too (haven't gone through the Compendia with a fine-toothed comb).

RagnaroksChosen
2008-08-22, 07:31 PM
if you want to include racial sub levels Kobalds make awsome skill monkeys... and trap monkeys if you use there racial subs.

other wise this is awsome.

although i understand the reason behind it you might want to expand on your "slight of hand becomes your attack" line...

Jack_Simth
2008-08-22, 07:37 PM
Could replace "Guide" with "Suggestions", "Strategies", "Stratagems", or some such, for the acronym.

monty
2008-08-22, 07:46 PM
Could replace "Guide" with "Suggestions", "Strategies", "Stratagems", or some such, for the acronym.

But then it's not unalliterative. And big words are fun.

CASTLEMIKE
2008-08-22, 07:49 PM
Great guide the only thing I really disagree with is the interpretation of how the Master Spellthief feat works for a spellcasting skillmonkey.

Since Oriental Adventures was mentioned for Iajutsu Skill the Magic of Faerun
Spellfire Wielder feat is really strong if you can get access to the book.

The Godsight feat from Lost Empires of Faerun could be useful or some of the Complete Mage bloodline feats with spell-like abilities could be useful depending on the campaign particularly social interaction and non-LA race campaigns.

Jack_Simth
2008-08-22, 07:55 PM
But then it's not unalliterative. And big words are fun.

True enough. Perhaps replace with "Undiluted"?

As for the guide itself....

Hide in Plain Sight:
Most versions of Hide in Plain Sight only remove the requirement that you not be observed when you start hiding, or that you need some form of cover or concealment. Few do both, so read the one you're using very carefully, ideally before your DM does.

Slight of Hand:
Negated by things being "well secured" and as "well secured" isn't a game-defined term, this has a lot of DM discretion. Additionally, when pickpocketing becomes a known problem, people start taking steps to better secure their possessions. If you rely on this strategy too much, you'll eventually find all your opponents will be guarded against it in one way or another - and this is in character for intelligent opponents, not a deliberate nerf.
Additionally, Spot only makes the DC a little higher, and lets people know you're doing it. It doesn't actually stop you from lifting an item.

Feats:
I'm surprised Silent Spell didn't make the list for caster skillmonkeys. Seems a bit required.

Vexxation
2008-08-22, 08:02 PM
Hm... a Factotum/Chameleon Changeling...
...a Master of Disguise...

(Couldn't a Chameleon take Open Minded every day as its bonus feat, netting it infinite skill points, rendering the skills-per-level pointless? I mean, it never says the points go away if the feat does, though it makes sense to rule that way)

Jack_Simth
2008-08-22, 08:08 PM
Hm... a Factotum/Chameleon Changeling...
...a Master of Disguise...

(Couldn't a Chameleon take Open Minded every day as its bonus feat, netting it infinite skill points, rendering the skills-per-level pointless? I mean, it never says the points go away if the feat does, though it makes sense to rule that way)
... when you lose a feat, you lose the benefits of the feat. What's the benefit of the Open Minded feat? Five bonus skill points. What, therefore, is lost when you lose the feat?

The argument that you don't lose the skill points when you lose the feat is comparable to the argument that you don't lose the untyped bonus to a skill when you lose the Skill Focus feat.

Vexxation
2008-08-22, 08:09 PM
... when you lose a feat, you lose the benefits of the feat. What's the benefit of the Open Minded feat? Five bonus skill points. What, therefore, is lost when you lose the feat?

The argument that you don't lose the skill points when you lose the feat is comparable to the argument that you don't lose the untyped bonus to a skill when you lose the Skill Focus feat.

Well, it's just that skill points are a (relatively) permanent thing; do you lose the skill points gained from Nymph's Kiss if that feat is lost? If so, do you just randomly pick skills to lose points from?

But yeah, my point was that to rule in favor of infinite skills would be absurd. And broken.

Edit: looking at the BoED, you can't lose Nymph's Kiss. I thought I remembered it being lost if the intimacy ended. Oh well, silly me.

monty
2008-08-22, 08:33 PM
True enough. Perhaps replace with "Undiluted"?

Fewer syllables = inferior.


Well, it's just that skill points are a (relatively) permanent thing; do you lose the skill points gained from Nymph's Kiss if that feat is lost? If so, do you just randomly pick skills to lose points from?

But yeah, my point was that to rule in favor of infinite skills would be absurd. And broken.

Edit: looking at the BoED, you can't lose Nymph's Kiss. I thought I remembered it being lost if the intimacy ended. Oh well, silly me.

Isn't it an exalted feat, which you lose if you commit an evil act?

namo
2008-08-22, 09:35 PM
Nice guide !

If you ever reformat the spell list, I would advise to sort it by spell levels.

Quick Reconnoiter (CAdv) is also a good feat for the "scout" role.

The Shadow Hand weapon of legacy has some interesting abilities: one of them allows you to hide as an immediate action at the beginning of a fight.

You may not have Complete Scoundrel, but perhaps you can mention the existence of skill tricks in passing.

At epic levels, there's the Void Incarnate (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ei/20030418a) for ultimate sneakiness: you erase your presence from the universe.

Emperor Tippy
2008-08-22, 09:48 PM
Taking a 1 level dip in Factotum and Able Learner is something every rogue should do.

Rogue 1/Factotum 1/Rogue 18 is a very good skill monkey. All you loose is 2 skill points and you gain all skills as class skills.

Person_Man
2008-08-22, 09:56 PM
Excellent work. This helps my Haberdash (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=88633) build as well, so thanks.

Now that 3.5 is done, its now finally fully knowable as well. No more rules means that once you figure out all of the uses for X, you know all of the uses. So I'm hoping each of the regulars takes the time to compile and post their guides and favorite builds. This is an excellent start.

Chronos
2008-08-22, 10:05 PM
if you want to include racial sub levels Kobalds make awsome skill monkeys... and trap monkeys if you use there racial subs.From Races of the Dragon, I presume? What do the sub-levels do?


Hide in Plain Sight:
Most versions of Hide in Plain Sight only remove the requirement that you not be observed when you start hiding, or that you need some form of cover or concealment. Few do both, so read the one you're using very carefully, ideally before your DM does.So far as I know, the Dark template version is the only one for which this is an issue. Everyone else who gets HiPS also gets some other ability earlier or at the same time which either provides concealment (Umbral Disciple), or removes the need for it (Ranger, Scout, or Wilderness Rogue, with Camoflage). But I'll add a note to that effect in the Dark template section.


If you rely on this strategy [Sleight of Hand] too much, you'll eventually find all your opponents will be guarded against it in one way or another - and this is in character for intelligent opponents, not a deliberate nerf.True, but the same could be said of any strategy. And you can't secure everything.


If you ever reformat the spell list, I would advise to sort it by spell levels.That's a bit problematic, since some spells are at different levels for different classes, and a UMD user can potentially be dealing with spells from any list. The organization in every section is core options in alphabetical order, followed by non-core options in alphabetical order. I probably should have all of the classes and levels listed for the spells, but that's a lot of work (especially since some classes, like Assassins, aren't usually mentioned in a spell's statblock).


Quick Reconnoiter (CAdv) is also a good feat for the "scout" role.Hm, I overlooked that one. OK, I'll add it.


The Shadow Hand weapon of legacy has some interesting abilities: one of them allows you to hide as an immediate action at the beginning of a fight.Weapons of legacy are a mess that I can't sort out. Besides, isn't there only one of those? I'd rather stick to things that anyone can get.


You may not have Complete Scoundrel, but perhaps you can mention the existence of skill tricks in passing.Yes, I'll do that.


And it hadn't even occurred to me to try for an acronym in the title, though "CUSS" seems a rather fitting one for thieves, rogues, and ne'er-do-wells. The current title is, of course, a nod to Solo's Stupendously Superior Sorcerer Stratagems. I'll think about it.

ericgrau
2008-08-22, 10:10 PM
The skill descriptions seem misinformed. Players would do well to simply read the skill rules thoroughly instead. Some examples of these and other rules-deficiencies are in spoiler below, b/c I don't want to make this seem like a bash-fest. You could just skip the spoiler, crack open your PHB, get real comfy b/c it's gonna be a while and then learn a lot more than my shpiel.


Hide is not invisibility, nor anything like it, unless you are a shadowdancer with HiPS. Even a ranger's HiPS won't cut it; though arguably the ever-common darkvision might negate the SD'S HiPS entirely. Unlike invisibility, you must hide behind something! Even if you have HiPS (the shadowdancer's HiPS is an exception). And you cannot see an invisible creature with a DC 20 spot check. You only discover that he is around... somewhere... dunno where, but there's an invisible guy around here! Um, yeeeeah... DC 40 to find his 5' square, and even then you still have the same miss chance and flat-footedness. If he makes a hide check he adds it to those DCs, and he always has concealment so he can do this out in the open (which, again, you can't normally do with hide).

Sleight of hand: Per the rules, what you described are unarmed disarm attacks. Sleight of hand may not be used for this. It is mostly used to pick pockets out-of-combat.

Skillwise, rogues can do everything a bard can do and more, almost without exception. The bard's strength here is that he has skills and other things at the same time. IMO getting a higher cha than you need for your spells is a waste. Are you really counting on the save DC of your low level spells?

Elf: Also has spot, listen and search bonuses, highly valuable to a skillmonkey in a party ("friggin' noisy, un-hidey party members always alerting the monsters, all I can do is scout for baddies and traps"). Also the only PHB dex bonus race with a 30' move speed. Handy for the many skills involving movement.


Magic items are notably absent, as some people have pointed out. Besides what others mentioned there are also other armor enchantments, eyes of the eagle, lens of detection (name?), a lot of cheap +10 elixers and that's just the core stuff off the top of my head.

Otherwise the guide is a fairly good compilation of what's in the rulebooks and popular opinion. If you're seeking to make a skillmonkey, I'd take the build parts of his guide, read the PHB skill rules carefully and research magic items selection yourself (unless the OP soon adds a convenient list to the guide :smallwink:).

Curmudgeon
2008-08-22, 10:51 PM
You've dismissed more than 5 levels of Balance out of hand. It does have one significant benefit, which is that it can be used to oppose trip attempts. (See the rule in Complete Adventurer.) As skill points will go up faster than the tripper's STR score, and you can "take 12" with Skill Mastery and Savvy Rogue, you can become immune to tripping. For Rogues who want usefulness in combat as well as skill monkey prowess, the ability to get up close and sneaky against spiked chain-wielding foes can save the bacon of all your party's melee types.

Rei_Jin
2008-08-22, 11:07 PM
A few other things that may be of interest to you...

Feat
Tactile Trapsmith (CAd): Allows you to use your dex modifier in place of your int modifier for search and disable device, also gives you no penalties for searching/disabling/opening a lock when you can't see. Could be very handy in a dungeon

Prestige Class
Human Paragon (UArc): First level of this class allows you to pick 10 skills as class skills, as well as allowing you to treat one skill as a permanent class skill, regardless of class.

Whilst it does only have 4+Int mod skills per level, its sheer versatility ranks it up there for a 1 level dip in Factotum, not to mention that it also gives you proficiency in a single Martial weapon of your choice.

Levels 2 and 3 are really only worthwhile if you have levels in a casting class. I'd recommend Warlock for the possibility to get darkvision and a +6 bonus to either acrobatic skills or social skills.

Levels 2 and 3 also give you a bonus feat, and +2 to a single stat of your choice. Not bad, really.

Vortling
2008-08-22, 11:32 PM
This is a very useful guide. While I won't have time to use it as a player for a while it will come in very handy for the next campaign I'm running. Thanks!

Jack_Simth
2008-08-23, 12:30 AM
True, but the same could be said of any strategy. And you can't secure everything.
Part of it is that "well secured" is never defined, which means it is up to DM whimsey.

But if you work at it, yes, you can secure everything reasonably well. Get a solid belt with a lock and lots of extra holes, and attach everything to steel wire by way of Sovereign Glue. Loop the ends of the steel wire through the holes in the belt, and join those with Sovereign Glue as well. Put belt on, lock it. An arbitrary number of items are now "well secured".

Even if you don't do everything that way, you can get the essentials for the class (Cloak of Resistance, stat boosters, spell components pouch; armor and shield generally ought to already qualify on their own) to the point where it's a waste of an action up until it's just free actions.

Tempest Fennac
2008-08-23, 01:07 AM
I know this isn;t quite the same thing, but I was thinking of using a Cloistered Cleric which can act as a skill monkey after Yeril brought a particular build up in a thread about Cloistered Clerics. My idea is to either pick the Trickery and Kobold Domains to get a lot of skills while using the Apprentice feat to get Move Silently and Open Lock as class skills, or (if you don't want to be a Kobold), have a customised anti-trap Domain rather then the Kobold Domain (that idea was discussed on this thread: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=87679 ).

FMArthur
2008-08-23, 01:41 AM
Wow, this is actually really useful to me, even though I never play the full-on skillmonkey role. I now know something of what skills can be more useful than others if my class abilities don't demand the attention of all of my skill points. Our party is almost always lacking one or more 'crucial' roles, so it's not a stretch to imagine an Int-focused Warblade having to sub for one in a pinch.

Thurbane
2008-08-23, 01:56 AM
There two classes I think might sit well with a skillmonkey build - Archivist and Exemplar. Any thoughts?

Tempest Fennac
2008-08-23, 02:03 AM
I've never heard of Exemplars. What do they do? Archivists can't really get access to enough skills to be good in this roll (you need a ton of Knowledge skill points for Dark Knowledge, and they don't get Domains, so you'd need Able Learner while ignoring Dark Knowledge to be that effective in a skill monkey roll as an Archivist, but this would limit you to playing as a Human or Changeling, and I don't think there's a way to get Trapfinding unless you're allowed to use the Generic Class Trapfinding feat).

Thurbane
2008-08-23, 02:12 AM
Exemplar is from Complete Adventurer - their whole focus is on using skills.

I thought a 1 level dip of Archivist might be worthwhile for Dark Knowledge, and also to use any divine wands without needing to make a UMD check.

Tempest Fennac
2008-08-23, 02:14 AM
That's a good point about Wands. DK isn't that great without a lot of Knowledge skill points, though. Also, don't forget that you'd lose some skill points while getting other features from your main class later).

tyckspoon
2008-08-23, 02:20 AM
Archivist works best as a secondary skillmonkey in the role of 'guy who knows things', I think. He'll have a base need of about six skillpoints- four types of Knowledge for his Dark Knowledge abilities, and then Spellcraft and Concentration as per the standard for spellcasters. Only needs an Int of 14, which is almost a given, but from there it starts getting a little harder to tap the rest of his list. 7 points/level is reasonable too from either Int 16 or being human; 8's doable from both. Mono-focus or high value pointbuy could get you 9. Say you decide to also hit.. oh, Decipher Script, Gather Information, and Heal (probably without maxing Heal and Concentration, since the most common target DCs for those are fairly low.)

You don't have enough points or a broad enough list to do primary skillmonkey jobs, and the class doesn't offer enough for a dip (bard, rogue, and especially factotum do that better). But you can take some skills that are otherwise relatively rare or alternately almost mandatory, which either broadens your party's options or takes some load off everybody else's skill arrangements so they can take more unusual skills themselves.

Turcano
2008-08-23, 03:33 AM
There are a couple more feats that you might want to check out.

The first is Trap Sensitivity from Dungeonscape, which allows characters to detect mechanical traps as though they were secret doors.

The second is Telling Blow from PH2, which adds sneak attack or skirmish damage to a critical hit.

Also, which of the Ambush feats from Complete Scoundrel are worth taking (if any)? Most of them probably aren't worth it, but Disemboweling Strike and Persistent Attacker seem promising.

Talic
2008-08-23, 05:46 AM
There's also a feat in the complete series somewhere that allows you to make a spot check vs target AC, and if you succeed, make your next attack a touch attack vs your target. Works really well when combined with the fact that generally, when you are attacking, they're flat footed too. Helps occasional combat accuracy needs.

Turcano
2008-08-23, 06:21 AM
There's also a feat in the complete series somewhere that allows you to make a spot check vs target AC, and if you succeed, make your next attack a touch attack vs your target. Works really well when combined with the fact that generally, when you are attacking, they're flat footed too. Helps occasional combat accuracy needs.

That's Deft Strike from Draconomicon. And I think it only bypasses natural and armor bonuses (including relevant enhancements).

ShneekeyTheLost
2008-08-23, 10:19 AM
Nightsong Infiltrator and Nightsong Enforcer are also both very solid Skillmonkey PrC's from Complete Adventurer. Infiltrator is more a skillmonkey, Enforcer is more of a full BAB rogue.

A Sample Build:

Infernal PITA
Strongheart Halfling Rogue2/Warlock4/Swordsage2/Nightsong Infiltrator 10/Rogue 2

In brief:

Warlock4 gives plenty of fun stuff. First off, you get three Least invocations. These should be: Entropic Warding (Also known as Tracker's Bane), Darkness (which grants concealment so you can hide), and Devil's Sight (so you can see through your own darkness). It also gives you a 2d6 ranged touch attack. With 13 levels of Rogue mixed in, that brings the total up to 8d6 if it is not immune to precision-based damage.

It also gives you the ability to Take 10 on any UMD check. That means you can carry around a Wand of Gravebane and a Wand of Golembane and never have to worry about anything, since they errata'd the use of wands from being a standard action. It also means your UMD cheeze just got a whole lot cheezier.

Swordsage 2 is a strange dip, until you consider all it does for you. Island of Blades stance should be the one you are almost always in. It lets you flank much easier, granting that many more sneak attacks. Furthermore, it lets you pick up a feat to add Dex to damage, instead of stength. For a Strongheart Halfling, that's a pretty worthwhile investment. It also nets you Wis to AC, which is variously useful depending on your Wis score, but every little bit helps, eh?

Nightsong Infiltrator is a surprisingly fun class, which synergises well with party assistance and what you already have. Team Sneak Attack + Island of Blades = lots of extra damage when everyone jumps someone. Steady Stance negates any need for Balance of 5 ranks. Teamwork Infiltration means being able to get even the dwarven cleric in full plate past a guard post without being seen or heard. Trackless Step granted to all allies makes it harder to find the party.The real gem in this, however, is Grant Move Action. Seriously, I can't even begin to list all the ways you can abuse this.

Chronos
2008-08-23, 10:26 AM
Quoth Emperor Tippy:
Taking a 1 level dip in Factotum and Able Learner is something every rogue should do.No, that's something that no rogue should do. If Factotum is available, then you want to take at least three levels, to pick up Brains over Brawn. At that point, you're probably not actually losing any skill points at all, since Brains over Brawn means that you can afford to put your highest score into Int, instead of your second-highest. And while the factotum's "all skills as class skills" thing is nice, how often are you actually going to use a skill that isn't on the rogue's list?

Quoth Jack_Simth:
But if you work at it, yes, you can secure everything reasonably well. Get a solid belt with a lock and lots of extra holes, and attach everything to steel wire by way of Sovereign Glue. Loop the ends of the steel wire through the holes in the belt, and join those with Sovereign Glue as well. Put belt on, lock it. An arbitrary number of items are now "well secured".Three possibilities, here: First, use Open Lock to unlock the belt, while you're at it. I'm not sure what the circumstance penalty would be for trying to unlock something attached to a person without them noticing, but you can get skill checks pretty darned high, if you put your mind to it. Or, of course, use a wand of Knock. Second, first steal the key that unlocks the lock, and avoid the need for the Open Locks check. Third, use some Universal Solvent to unglue the items you want to steal.

Quoth Tempest Fennac:
I know this isn;t quite the same thing, but I was thinking of using a Cloistered Cleric which can act as a skill monkey after Yeril brought a particular build up in a thread about Cloistered Clerics. My idea is to either pick the Trickery and Kobold Domains to get a lot of skills while using the Apprentice feat to get Move Silently and Open Lock as class skillsThat works, but it seems a bit convoluted for my taste. Dipping one level of Ninja just seems cleaner. Then again, with some of the builds I've put together, I'm perhaps not the best one to complain about "convoluted".

Quoth Thurbane:
There two classes I think might sit well with a skillmonkey build - Archivist and Exemplar. Any thoughts?Archivist seems a lot more like a cross between a wizard and a cleric, than a skillmonkey, to me. The only skills they're particularly good at are the knowledge skills, which are usually a wizard's forte. Exemplar's already in the guide, though.

Quoth Turcano:
The second is Telling Blow from PH2, which adds sneak attack or skirmish damage to a critical hit.That's optimizing a little more heavily for Sneak Attack than I'd prefer. I included Craven because it only needs a single die of Sneak Attack to be effective, but Telling Blow is really only worthwhile if you have a lot.

kjones
2008-08-23, 10:33 AM
The second is Telling Blow from PH2, which adds sneak attack or skirmish damage to a critical hit.



Telling Blow is, unfortunately, a bit of a trap - if you run the numbers, it's just not worth it, unless you've really optimized your crit-dealing.

Edit: Semi-ninja'ed by Chronos, but he makes a good point. This isn't about the combat rogue here.

nargbop
2008-08-23, 10:41 AM
Exemplar is a good class to take a short dip in - take one level for +4 to a single skill and skill masteries in the class level+Intelligence mod. That +4 is enormously useful on, say, Spellcraft checks.
I once took a character all the way to eighth level and enjoyed the massive multiple-ability-reinforcement class ability, where CHA becomes wonderful.

hotel_papa
2008-08-23, 10:43 AM
One of my characters (my wife's, actually) is a rog/swb with Daring Outlaw, Telling Blow, Improved Critical and a couple of rapiers. That being said, I agree with you completly, Kjones. Without the 15-20 crit range and multiple attacks per round, Telling Blow wouldn't be worth it. But, how sweet it is when you do invest a bit into it.

My question is, what are the prerequisites and such for Craven? I can't find it online and no one I know has Champions of Ruin.

Also, I have to second Rei_jin for the human paragon class, for all three levels. A +2 to int for a three level investment seems reasonable to me. Especially with it's other myriad flexibilities.

HP

EDIT- I think I need a new avatar. Too many unhappy-looking Samurai wandering 'bout the playground.

EDIT- No longer a pixie! It's like I kinda belong!!!

Eldariel
2008-08-23, 11:13 AM
The biggest problem with Telling Blow isn't that it does nothing, it's that generally there are easier ways to activate Sneak Attack/Skirmish/etc. The only real sitiuation where I'd use Telling Blow is a long-range precision-focused sniper build casting Hunter's Mercy before each shot. Other than that, it tends to be more trouble than it's worth. Note that it doesn't double the Precision Damage, just allows you to deal it on Crit even when you normally wouldn't. That's ultimately the reason it's jank.

Aquillion
2008-08-23, 11:46 AM
That's a bit problematic, since some spells are at different levels for different classes, and a UMD user can potentially be dealing with spells from any list. The organization in every section is core options in alphabetical order, followed by non-core options in alphabetical order. I probably should have all of the classes and levels listed for the spells, but that's a lot of work (especially since some classes, like Assassins, aren't usually mentioned in a spell's statblock).For scrolls, you should almost always assume levels go by this order (taking the first one available): Wizard/Sorc, Cleric, Druid, everyone else. (Typically if a spell isn't available to one of the core full-casters, it's only available to one class anyway.)

The SRD specifically says you should assume Wiz/Sorcs above the others for arcane spells; and Cleric/Druids above the others for divine spells. This is common sense, since those are the people who scribe most scrolls. And naturally wizards would go before clerics when a spell is on both, since wizards have scribe scroll as a bonus feat all the time; clerics go before druids because clerics at least can get scribe scroll as a bonus feat with the right domain, while druids can't.

Plus, in practical terms there's many more important uses (and therefore more demand) for sorc/wiz scrolls than any other type; and chances are, a wizard in your party will have Scribe Scroll as a bonus feat and be able to scribe scrolls for you if necessary, while you're not guaranteed access to scrolls via any other means. (All right, unless you have an artificer or warlock.) You could note alternate spell levels when you happen to know them, but wizard-cleric-druid is really the most important, in that order.

And having a general sense of levels is far more useful than having no sense at all. Most rogues should stock up on all the remotely useful first-level spells, just in case, since they're so cheap; higher-level spells are rarely worth the investment unless they make a huge difference and it's something your primary caster can't handle.

Also, spells of first-fourth level are available via wands. That's a very big deal (especially for those cheap 0th and 1st level wands); dividing up spells by which are wandable and which aren't is important.

Tempest Fennac
2008-08-23, 01:02 PM
Wouldn't the Exp. penalty from taking 1 Ninja level be a problem? Also, how would you justify that build from a fluff perspective? (I'm not sure why a stealthy assassin would have the same interest in studying that a CC should have).

Emperor Tippy
2008-08-23, 01:13 PM
Quoth Emperor Tippy:No, that's something that no rogue should do. If Factotum is available, then you want to take at least three levels, to pick up Brains over Brawn. At that point, you're probably not actually losing any skill points at all, since Brains over Brawn means that you can afford to put your highest score into Int, instead of your second-highest. And while the factotum's "all skills as class skills" thing is nice, how often are you actually going to use a skill that isn't on the rogue's list?
To be perfectly blunt, if Factotum is in play then you should never use anything else as your primary class for a skill monkey (in fact its debatable whether or not you should even dip into anything else). There is nothing that any other skill monkey can do that a Factotum can't do better.

CASTLEMIKE
2008-08-23, 01:13 PM
My question is, what are the prerequisites and such for Craven? I can't find it online and no one I know has Champions of Ruin.



Craven

http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Craven,CR

Nice boost to a high level PC with minimal Sneak Attack like a Rogue -1, Factotum-19 or a Monk or Monk dipper able to combine Sneak Attack with unarmed attacks.


To be perfectly blunt, if Factotum is in play then you should never use anything else as your primary class for a skill monkey (in fact its debatable whether or not you should even dip into anything else). There is nothing that any other skill monkey can do that a Factotum can't do better.

Factotum has a dead level at Factotum -20. Depending on race in a leveling up game taking that first level of Rogue for a few more skill points and either Sneak Attack or a Bonus Feat for using the variant Feat Rogue can be nice.

Emperor Tippy
2008-08-23, 01:29 PM
Factotum has a dead level at Factotum -20. Depending on race in a leveling up game taking that first level of Rogue for a few more skill points and either Sneak Attack or a Bonus Feat for using the variant Feat Rogue can be nice.

Note where I said primary class. There are lots of things that can make a decent 1 level dip. Factotum 19/ Swordsage 1 gets you an IL of 10 (5th level Maneuvers and stances), which can be quite nice.

EDIT: As for sneak attack, the Factotum can easily get a fairly decent one. Grab Assassin's stance for +2d6. Use Cunning Brilliance to grab the Rogues Sneak Attack Progression for +10d6. Then throw on Cunning Strike for +1d6 per Inspiration Point spent (and you can get upwards of 40 IP if you really try).

Infact on a 1 level dip you are better off with Swordsage and Assassins Stance over Rogue. It gets you an extra 1d6 on the Sneak Attack, +1 to Initiative Checks, and 6 Maneuvers Known.

monty
2008-08-23, 01:34 PM
Factotum has a dead level at Factotum -20. Depending on race in a leveling up game taking that first level of Rogue for a few more skill points and either Sneak Attack or a Bonus Feat for using the variant Feat Rogue can be nice.

As a side note, although it's hardly anything spectacular, 2 inspiration points, an extra spell per day, and +1 OP isn't quite a dead level - certainly not to the extent of Rogue 20.

CASTLEMIKE
2008-08-23, 01:35 PM
Note where I said primary class. There are lots of things that can make a decent 1 level dip. Factotum 19/ Swordsage 1 gets you an IL of 10 (5th level Maneuvers and stances), which can be quite nice.

Yes Warblade or Swordsage is nice but note I said Rogue as a dip at first level in a skill monkey thread in a leveling up game useful for the next 18 levels not just the last in a build.


As a side note, although it's hardly anything spectacular, 2 inspiration points, an extra spell per day, and +1 OP isn't quite a dead level - certainly not to the extent of Rogue 20.

Probably true if you were taking it at level -20 but supposedly half the games don't go past L10 and it was taken at first level in a leveling up game.

hotel_papa
2008-08-23, 01:38 PM
If Craven doesn't allow you to be immune to fear, does that mean that a recipient of Heroes' Feast with the feat gains no benefit from it?

Also, seconding staying with Factotum for the long run.
~Anything you can do, I can do better, I can do anything better than you.~

HP

Emperor Tippy
2008-08-23, 01:45 PM
Yes Warblade or Swordsage is nice but note I said Rogue as a dip at first level in a skill monkey thread in a leveling up game useful for the next 18 levels not just the last in a build.

Not really. All Rogue 1 gets you if taken at first level is 8 extra skill points and a 1d6 sneak attack in exchange for 2 extra HP. From 4th level on Factotum gets a sneak attack. And at that point you can have Font of Inspiration 4 times, which means a 13d6 Sneak Attack if you want to nova an encounter.

And if you take FoI 6 times (4 from Chaos Shuffling Elf feats, 2 from Flaws) then you get an extra 21 Inspiration Points. So at level 9 you have 26 IP. And once you hit 30 Int you can get 55 extra IP.

CASTLEMIKE
2008-08-23, 01:48 PM
Not really. All Rogue 1 gets you if taken at first level is 8 extra skill points and a 1d6 sneak attack in exchange for 2 extra HP. From 4th level on Factotum gets a sneak attack. And at that point you can have Font of Inspiration 4 times, which means a 13d6 Sneak Attack if you want to nova an encounter.

And if you take FoI 10 times (4 from Chaos Shuffling Elf feats, 2 from Flaws, 4 from levels) then you get an extra 55 Inspiration Points. So at level 9 you have 60 IP.

Not if you take the Variant Feat Rogue.

monty
2008-08-23, 01:52 PM
Probably true if you were taking it at level -20 but supposedly half the games don't go past L10 and it was taken at first level in a leveling up game.

On the other hand, if you aren't going to high levels, what do you care about dead levels anyway?

CASTLEMIKE
2008-08-23, 01:55 PM
On the other hand, if you aren't going to high levels, what do you care about dead levels anyway?

Perhaps I have to level up from first level instead of building him at L20 .:smallsmile:

Emperor Tippy
2008-08-23, 01:58 PM
Not if you take the Variant Feat Rogue.

1 feat isn't worth it. And the Skill Points are worth 2 Feats. So with the Variant Feat Rogue you effectively gain 3 free feats, 2 of which are already spent on Open Minded.

Compared to Swordsage 1 at level 20 it really isn't worth it. And depending on what stance and maneuvers you want that swordsage level could easily come sooner (you get 3rd level Maneuvers and Stances at level 10).

EDIT: And you can do some real nasty things if you take that SS level at 20. Bonus Feats is a Fighter class feature that is a valid target for Cunning Brilliance and it nets you 10 Fighter Bonus Feats. Martial Study is a Fighter Bonus Feat, so you can effectively grab any maneuvers that you want for a specific battle, use Adaptive Style to prepare the ones you want as a full round action, and then use Cunning Surge twice to take 2 Standard Actions. It costs you 10 IP but it effectively let's you grab any 4 Maneuvers (from any disciplines), move within range of your target, and then use both a boost and a strike (a boost and 3 strikes if you want to spend the IP). The extra 6 Fighter Bonus Feats can be used to meet prerequisites for higher level maneuvers.

CASTLEMIKE
2008-08-23, 02:05 PM
1 feat isn't worth it. And the Skill Points are worth 2 Feats. So with the Variant Feat Rogue you effectively gain 3 free feats, 2 of which are already spent on Open Minded.

Compared to Swordsage 1 at level 20 it really isn't worth it. And depending on what stance and maneuvers you want that swordsage level could easily come sooner (you get 3rd level Maneuvers and Stances at level 10).

I disagree it would be better to go Factotum -1, Swordsage or Warblade -1 if you can use the double flaw variant for extra Fonts of Inspiration feats which is not a given. Open-minded is only good at first level IMO if you gain the first level fours times multiplier for the skill points which is rarely granted.

Regarding your point about losing 2 HP you could always spend that bonus feat on Toughness and net +1 HP with the feat. (Not that I recommend it since there are a lot of good feats in the game).

Emperor Tippy
2008-08-23, 02:13 PM
I disagree it would be better to go Factotum -1, Swordsage or Warblade -1 if you can use the double flaw variant for extra Fonts of Inspiration feats which is not a given. Open-minded is only good at first level IMO if you gain the first level fours times multiplier for the skill points which is rarely granted.

You misunderstand me. What the Rogue gets you over the Factotum is 8 skill points and a feat (with the Variant rogue). Open Minded taken twice gets you 10 skill points. So going Rogue 1/Factotum 19 vs. Factotum 19/ X 1 is worth slightly less than 3 feats and costs you 2 HP.

Even without Flaws you have more than enough feats for your FoI needs.

CASTLEMIKE
2008-08-23, 02:58 PM
You misunderstand me. What the Rogue gets you over the Factotum is 8 skill points and a feat (with the Variant rogue). Open Minded taken twice gets you 10 skill points. So going Rogue 1/Factotum 19 vs. Factotum 19/ X 1 is worth slightly less than 3 feats and costs you 2 HP.

Even without Flaws you have more than enough feats for your FoI needs.

Maybe but the game has power curves based on race and class along with choice opportunity cost. The optimal L-20 build isn't always the best one to actually play through in a game. It doesn't matter what level the Factotum assigns those Open Minded feats in a L20 build but it does if you have to level up through those choices.

If the extra feat was only spent on Toughness it nets the PC +1 HP at first level.

PHBII retraining and rebuilding rules are nice.

Changeling Rogue - 1 would get +16 skill points more at first level than a Factotum - 1 which is significant for a skill monkey at low levels plus several fast charisma checks and taking 10 on numerous charisma checks at low levels.

IMO at L8 converting to Factotum - 8 when the PC should have enough resources to handle the loss of those initial skill points for the extra action.

Possibly going Chameleon -1 for a little spellcasting and some skill bonuses while a Martial dip into Swordsage or Warblade -1 at L9 (IL-5 third level manuevers) would provide some nice benefits which can be rebuilt out of by L19 for Factotum - 19.

At L-20 personal choice of PC either Factotum - 20 or Factotum - 19, X-1

Aquillion
2008-08-23, 03:20 PM
And if you take FoI 6 times (4 from Chaos Shuffling Elf feats, 2 from Flaws) then you get an extra 21 Inspiration Points. So at level 9 you have 26 IP. And once you hit 30 Int you can get 55 extra IP.Honestly, if you're going to use Chaos Shuffle, you might as well just turn into Pun-Pun and grant yourself any power you want. Even if its place on the curve isn't quite as high, Chaos Shuffle is pretty much beyond the pale for any actual use.

I mean, if we're talking TO, sure, but I assume this guide is for builds you might use in an actual game.

Emperor Tippy
2008-08-23, 03:37 PM
Maybe but the game has power curves based on race and class. The optimal L-20 build isn't always the best one to actually play through in a game. It doesn't matter what level the Factotum assigns those Open Minded feats in a L20 build but it does if you have to level up through those choices.

If the extra feat was only spent on Toughness it nets the PC +1 HP at first level.

PHBII retraining and rebuilding rules are nice.

Changeling Rogue - 1 would get +16 skill points more at first level than a Factotum - 1 which is significant for a skill monkey at low levels plus several fast charisma checks and taking 10 on numerous charisma checks at low levels.

IMO at L8 converting to Factotum - 8 when the PC should have enough resources to handle the loss of those initial skill points for the extra action.

Possibly going Chameleon -1 for a little spellcasting and some skill bonuses while a Martial dip into Swordsage or Warblade -1 at L9 would provide some nice benefits which can be rebuilt out of by L19 for Factotum - 19.

The thing is that a straight Factotum is more playable and optimal than pretty much any rogue build and pretty much any level. There is no question at all about playability in either of the builds we are discussing, even if you start at level 1.

Skill points are nice but a Factotum 1 with 20 int (18+2 from grey elf) can max 11 skills. And with Cunning Knowledge and Brains Over Brawn you really don't have to max most skills. Put one point in every skill so you can use Cunning Knowledge when you really need to make a check and then you are pretty much set.

Balance, for example, offers no benefit once you can make a DC 37 check. It's a dex check which means that you get Int to it in addition to Dex. A Dex of 24, and an Int of 30 is +17, meaning you need another 19 points. A masterwork tool, a luckstone, and 5 ranks in tumble and you need 14 ranks. So you can have Balance maxed at level 11 (and thats moving at full speed across a 2 inch wide, severely slippery, severely obstructed, sloped, terrain feature).

Climb maxes at 35 (pre epic) which means 34 ranks. For 600 GP you can get it based off of dex, meaning it can be maxed at level 9.

Craft needs no points as you make 1 check per day (meaning Cunning Knowledge on every check) and it's Int based.

Diplomacy depends on the house rules in play.

Disable Device maxes at 35 (25 if you just want to disable a trap and not bypass it).

Open Lock maxes at 42 and is Dex based, meaning that you want to be able to hit that DC naked for absolute safety. But you can take 20 so 22 ranks is enough. Which you can easily get with 30 Int, 24 Dex, and 5 ranks.

Ride maxes at 20 and is Dex based.

Swim maxes at 20 as well and is Str based.


There are lots of skills that you don't have to max.

Emperor Tippy
2008-08-23, 03:41 PM
Honestly, if you're going to use Chaos Shuffle, you might as well just turn into Pun-Pun and grant yourself any power you want. Even if its place on the curve isn't quite as high, Chaos Shuffle is pretty much beyond the pale for any actual use.

I mean, if we're talking TO, sure, but I assume this guide is for builds you might use in an actual game.

I've never had a DM ban Chaos Shuffle in play, barring really out there things (starting at level 20 in gestalt with Fighter on one side and VoP so I could get an extra 22 feats for example). Granted, I haven't used it in some games because it just doesn't fit with my character.

And Pun-Pun is far, far worse than Chaos Shuffle. Spontaneous Divination is worse than it as well. And that 5th level Cleric spell that lets you count a roll as a natural 20 is worse. And thought bottles. And lots of other things.

Akimbo
2008-08-23, 03:54 PM
@Chronos

1) Your over reliance on sleight of hand in combat is rather silly, especially given that there are actual rules for doing those things in combat, they are under the disarm section.

You should maybe suggest something else to do in combat, you know, anything that isn't using an intended OOC skill to accomplish acts that already have rules somewhere else.

Some people's guides (TLN and Solo) lend themselves to actually being used in games, others (Giamoco and your sleight of hand as primary weapon system) don't.

Judging by your title, I'd guess that you would rather be in the first category.

2) Everything I said about Sleight of Hand, apply it to super invulnerable Hide checks of no possibility of ever getting seen by anyone.

3) One thing I'd actually hoped for with a skillmonkey guide is a compilation (or at least of the most useful ones) of all the little extra tricks added to skills in non-core books.

Races of the Wild has some, probably Complete Adventurer, in fact, lots of books do. Perhaps you could find time to go back through your books for those?

CASTLEMIKE
2008-08-23, 04:23 PM
Skill points are nice but a Factotum 1 with 20 int (18+2 from grey elf) can max 11 skills. And with Cunning Knowledge and Brains Over Brawn you really don't have to max most skills. Put one point in every skill so you can use Cunning Knowledge when you really need to make a check and then you are pretty much set.


This is the skillmonkey guide.

How many Int - 20 grey elves are really going to do anything except dip Factotum - 1 with Wizard - 19 or Factotum - 3, Wizard - 17 instead of becoming Wizards one of the most powerful classes and the Elven favored class unless the multiclassing rules are not used? :smallsmile: (Strong gestalting Factotum with Wizard)

Factotum -1 or 3 or 5 or 8 and 19 (if you are staying past Factotum -8) are the primary capstone points for the Factotum class IMO.

Sure Cunning Knowledge and Brains over Brawn are nice at Factotum -3 the Changeling Rogue -1, Factotum -3 won't gain that for another level at L4.

Emperor Tippy
2008-08-23, 04:26 PM
Grey Elves make some of the best skill monkeys as well. And especially good Factotums. And it gets even better if your DM allows you to take Faerie Mysteries Initiate (you can dump con).

Emperor Tippy
2008-08-23, 04:37 PM
2) Everything I said about Sleight of Hand, apply it to super invulnerable Hide checks of no possibility of ever getting seen by anyone.

Actually not really. With Darkstalker, a Greater Collar of Umbral Metamorphosis, and a Minor Cloak of Displacement one can hide at any time and pretty much everything without Mindsight has to make a spot check to find you. So at level 20 (going Factotum 19/Swordsage 1), with an Int of 30 and a Dex of 26, the person trying to find you has to hit a minimum DC of 42 to spot you (and thats without a masterwork tool or any other boosts). If you use Cunning Knowledge that goes up by 19 points. Throw in Skill Mastery for another 9 points.

Jack_Simth
2008-08-23, 04:42 PM
Grey Elves make some of the best skill monkeys as well. And especially good Factotums. And it gets even better if your DM allows you to take Faerie Mysteries Initiate (you can dump con).
That doesn't help your Fort save any; just your hit points.

Akimbo
2008-08-23, 05:02 PM
Actually not really. With Darkstalker, a Greater Collar of Umbral Metamorphosis, and a Minor Cloak of Displacement one can hide at any time and pretty much everything without Mindsight has to make a spot check to find you. So at level 20 (going Factotum 19/Swordsage 1), with an Int of 30 and a Dex of 26, the person trying to find you has to hit a minimum DC of 42 to spot you (and thats without a masterwork tool or any other boosts). If you use Cunning Knowledge that goes up by 19 points. Throw in Skill Mastery for another 9 points.

I am well aware that you can do that by the rules. You can also accomplish the same thing by casting Superior Invisibility/Ghostform/Mindblank/Non-detection, +/- a few spells depending on various DM rulings, as you well know.

My point is solely that such a character is too perfect for 95% of games. Yes, such a strategy is fine for a Rogue in a party of Druid (or Planar Shepard)/Incantatrix/DMM Persist Cleric 5/PrC 5/Contemplative 10.

It also doesn't fit in a guide that dissuades use of Font of Inspiration, any pays homage to Solo's Sorcerer Guide.

Emperor Tippy
2008-08-23, 05:14 PM
That doesn't help your Fort save any; just your hit points.

Yep. But saves can be boosted easier than you can get HP based off of something else.


I am well aware that you can do that by the rules. You can also accomplish the same thing by casting Superior Invisibility/Ghostform/Mindblank/Non-detection, +/- a few spells depending on various DM rulings, as you well know.

My point is solely that such a character is too perfect for 95% of games. Yes, such a strategy is fine for a Rogue in a party of Druid (or Planar Shepard)/Incantatrix/DMM Persist Cleric 5/PrC 5/Contemplative 10.

It also doesn't fit in a guide that dissuades use of Font of Inspiration, any pays homage to Solo's Sorcerer Guide.

Um, no. It fits just fine in a guide for how to play a skill monkey. It isn't to perfect.

Akimbo
2008-08-23, 06:45 PM
Um, no. It fits just fine in a guide for how to play a skill monkey. It isn't to perfect.

Any character that starts with the assumption, "The DM must own Lords of Madness, have looked under that one race that was created for the book, and then discovered the Mindsight feat and has since started applying it to other characters/creatures for me to ever take any damage at all from anything ever."

Is too perfect for 95% of games.In fact, it's definitionaly too perfect for any game where the DM does not use Lords of Madness.

Emperor Tippy
2008-08-23, 06:52 PM
Anyone with a spot check who can beat your hide check can do it.

Thurbane
2008-08-23, 06:55 PM
Quoth Thurbane:Archivist seems a lot more like a cross between a wizard and a cleric, than a skillmonkey, to me. The only skills they're particularly good at are the knowledge skills, which are usually a wizard's forte.
Just as an aside, has anyone created a Knowledge Monkey guide yet? I'd sure be interested in that, too...

Emperor Tippy
2008-08-23, 07:04 PM
@Akimbo
A very old Red Dragon (CR 21) has 31 HD and an unmodified wisdom of 23. With max ranks in spot it gets +40 on its check. In fact a large number of the CR 20+ monsters have enough HD to at least give them a chance of spotting you. And remember, they get another roll every time you take an action pretty much.

Akimbo
2008-08-23, 07:57 PM
@Akimbo
A very old Red Dragon (CR 21) has 31 HD and an unmodified wisdom of 23. With max ranks in spot it gets +40 on its check. In fact a large number of the CR 20+ monsters have enough HD to at least give them a chance of spotting you. And remember, they get another roll every time you take an action pretty much.

So we compare that to Int 36, Dex 26-30, 23 ranks, +10 Competence minimum, +8-12 Racial depending on race, and +8 size.

So we get: +40 vs +56 with only a +10 competence bonus. Add in +20 that you can also get pre epic, or bother to optimize it at all, or get skill mastery to take 10 and the dragon can just go cry.

And that's CR 21.

Emperor Tippy
2008-08-23, 08:22 PM
The Dragon can optimize as well.

FMArthur
2008-08-23, 08:58 PM
But not realistically. The DM starts having to design every encounter to challenge this one player, and breaks the campaign world's consistency.

Emperor Tippy
2008-08-23, 09:10 PM
But not realistically. The DM starts having to design every encounter to challenge this one player, and breaks the campaign world's consistency.

Sorry but at levels 15+ everything you face should be optimized (possibly excluding casters). And no, nothing has to be designed to challenge this player. He is not a full caster, by its very definition he is weak sauce.

Factotums are nice and make the best skill monkeys, they might even be the best non full caster in the game, but they are still weak. The wizard can cast Superior Invisibility + Mindblank and be completely undetectable to everything that the Factotum can hide from. 2 spells vs. an investment of several thousand gold, 20+ skill points, and 20 levels. The wizard can do it with 2 spells.

Chronos
2008-08-23, 09:15 PM
Quoth Akimbo:
1) Your over reliance on sleight of hand in combat is rather silly, especially given that there are actual rules for doing those things in combat, they are under the disarm section.Did you miss the part where I said you want to avoid combat if at all possible? One of the reasons for that is so you can keep using Sleight of Hand. So, for instance, you might have something like the thief sneaking ahead, stealing the evil cleric's holy symbol, bringing it back to the party, and then everyone going in and beating up the villain. Sure, the thief will do some damage in the fight, but his real contribution was made before initiative was rolled.

Aquillion
2008-08-23, 09:22 PM
Regarding Slight of Hand for stealing objects from people, note that the rules are as follows:

If you try to take something from another creature, you must make a DC 20 Sleight of Hand check to obtain it. The opponent makes a Spot check to detect the attempt, opposed by the same Sleight of Hand check result you achieved when you tried to grab the item. An opponent who succeeds on this check notices the attempt, regardless of whether you got the item.
Several observations. First, and most importantly: The opponent's spot check does not let them protect their item; it merely lets them know you took it. If you have 20 ranks in Slight of Hand, per RAW you can always and without fail lift the wizard's spell component pouch; their spot check is just to see whether they realize you took it or not. (Although honestly, if a wizard lets people just walk up to them, they sort of deserve this. If you can sneak up to the enemy wizard before the battle begins... why not just put a dagger in their lungs instead? Also, what options are there for using slight of hand to take items at range?)

Second, there is no mention of 'unsecured' items there. Whether securing an item actually helps and how much the victim has to do is entirely up to DM fiat.

Third, while the text gives no guidelines as to what sort of items you can take, the table says that the DC 20 check is for lifting a 'small' item. Additionally, taking weapons requires a DC 50 check, so you can safely say you can't take them with a DC 20 check (of course, optimizing for a DC 50 check is perfectly possible.)



3) One thing I'd actually hoped for with a skillmonkey guide is a compilation (or at least of the most useful ones) of all the little extra tricks added to skills in non-core books.

Races of the Wild has some, probably Complete Adventurer, in fact, lots of books do. Perhaps you could find time to go back through your books for those?Crystal Keep has the list you're looking for, in PDF format. No need to duplicate it here, although perhaps some of the most useful and important ones to a skillmonkey could be noted.

Heliomance
2008-12-08, 02:55 PM
Is there a build that lies in effectiveness somewhere between the core-only build and the level-dipping cheese fest that is the Dungeon Delver build?

Also, the trouble with Factotum is that until level 18 or so, it grants you precisely nothing in the way of combat effectiveness. Yes, you can be a good skillmonkey with it. But the trouble is, there are times when you can't avoid combat, and at those times your poor little skillmonkey is going to be hiding in a corner going "pleasedon'thurtmepleasedon'thurtme".

PurinaDragonCho
2008-12-08, 06:16 PM
Open Lock maxes at 42 and is Dex based, meaning that you want to be able to hit that DC naked for absolute safety. But you can take 20 so 22 ranks is enough. Which you can easily get with 30 Int, 24 Dex, and 5 ranks.



So, what's the secret to getting 30 Int and 24 Dex? My 12th level Rogue/Archivist is pretty awesome, but he has nowhere near the gold required to boost stats that high.

Heliomance
2008-12-08, 06:26 PM
Grey Elf, Gloves of Dex +4, Headband of Intellect +6, Tome of Clear Thought +4? That should be affordable by 12th level, I think. Just.

PurinaDragonCho
2008-12-08, 06:31 PM
Grey Elf, Gloves of Dex +4, Headband of Intellect +6, Tome of Clear Thought +4? That should be affordable by 12th level, I think. Just.

I didn't mean to sound snarky, and probably did... but theoretical stuff is one thing and practical stuff is another. I don't have the money to buy that kind of gear. In fact, in the three different campaigns I've played in in the past couple of years, with 3 different DMs, I've never had the money to buy that kind of gear. I merely wanted to make the point that not every player can just open the DMG and the MIC and get whatever they want out of it, not even stuff suitable for their level.

Aquillion
2008-12-08, 08:14 PM
Also, the trouble with Factotum is that until level 18 or so, it grants you precisely nothing in the way of combat effectiveness. Yes, you can be a good skillmonkey with it. But the trouble is, there are times when you can't avoid combat, and at those times your poor little skillmonkey is going to be hiding in a corner going "pleasedon'thurtmepleasedon'thurtme".
The usual solution to this is to take Iaijutsu Focus, although that's usually something you'd want to run by your DM first (at least, to ensure that the relevant book is being used.)

Another option is to focus on UMD, FoI abuse, and taking extra actions. Throwing around a bunch of carefully-chosen low- to mid-level effects in one turn can be useful enough to give you something to do, even if it's not overwhelming. If you want, you can even take Metamagic Spell Trigger and spam multiple twinned maximized empowered rays that ignore DR and SR and, eventually, you'll be able to add sneak attack to. (Although you'll have to take metamagic feats, too, so this is a bit of an investment.)

Paramour Pink
2008-12-08, 08:29 PM
Speaking from the voice of inexperience here, do secret corrodors/sections ever come up in games? Just asking as search encomposes finding them, ad elves get a free chance to pick up one one. Even in dungeon crawls, I can't imagine a DM actually using them. They're like diseases; they exist in the game, but the chances of them being used are unlikely...right?

Human Paragon 3
2008-12-08, 10:58 PM
Can you prove that unalliterative is a word?

Partysan
2008-12-09, 11:49 AM
Just a small comment: Martial Study does not only grant a maneuver, but makes that maneuver's discipline's key skill a class skill for you - maybe of some interest, if we are talking about skillmonkeys.

woodenbandman
2009-04-14, 06:22 PM
Child of Shadow specifically disallows Hide in Plain Sight.

Chronos
2009-04-14, 08:10 PM
Child of Shadow specifically disallows Hide in Plain Sight. Or rather, it doesn't grant it-- If you have Hide in Plain Sight from some other source, there's no reason you couldn't combine it with Child of Shadow.

But the key here is that there are two different conditions you normally need in order to hide: First, you need to have cover or concealment, and second, nobody can be watching you while you do it. Hide in Plain Sight removes the second condition (and sometimes the first, but that depends on what version of HiPS you have), so a character with HiPS who has concealment can hide even if someone's watching. Child of Shadow doesn't give HiPS, but it does give concealment, so you can still use Child of Shadow to hide, as long as nobody's watching you try to do it. This would be useful, for instance, if you're already hidden before an encounter, so nobody's watching you: Child of Shadow would allow you to stay hidden during the encounter.

And Paramour Pink, I've never seen a dungeon, fortress, or whatever that didn't have secret passageways. Some DMs might not use them, of course, but I've never heard of any sort of taboo on them.

Heliomance
2009-11-01, 09:39 AM
As this is a handbook and the primary resource of its type, I hope it's exempt from the necroposting rules. If not, my sincerest apologies.

I was wondering if a stealth-focused character might find a dip into Psychic Warrior to get Compression useful, as dropping two size categories is always helpful for such things as hide and escape artist checks. Thoughts?

Starbuck_II
2009-11-01, 10:15 AM
You could add the Lurk to the list as they have a decent list of skills.

Dimers
2009-11-03, 01:12 AM
Chronos -- if you include Psicrystal Affinity in the list of useful feats, you might put Improved Psicrystal in as well. You gain another of the variety of bonuses, and the crystal gains special abilities as if you're a level higher. This is strictly better than Skill Focus for any skill on this list (or for Great Fortitude or Iron Will), and of course stacks with the standard SF/GF/IW.

I'd also add conceal thoughts to the list of psi powers. Can be cast on others, +10 circumstance to Bluff in some cases, +4 save versus mindreading, lasts for a minimum of one hour for a single power point.