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Frosty
2008-08-23, 11:08 AM
One of my players loves Paladins...absolutely adores the idea of one. Unfortunately, we may also be starting a moderate to high level campaign soon where the players must invade the 9 Hells. Single classed Paladin surviving in Hell? Not so much. I'm thinking of letting him have a few goodies to help offset the Paladin's crappiness. Tell me what you think.

1) Give him a +1 LA for free...something simple like Aasimar. Enhances his paladin stuff. Or maybe Hellbred but give the Hellbred another +2 stat.

2) Give the Paladin the Crusader progression with Maneuvers (and the same recovery method)...OR give him free Gestalt for 10 of his levels in a class of my choosing. For example, like, from levels 11-20 he gets levels in Paladin *and* Hellreaver (FC2) or something.

3) A Pegasus mount...and arppoximately 200k free gold that can ONLY be spent on equipment to protect and enhance the mount.

The Glyphstone
2008-08-23, 11:15 AM
Well, single-classed Paladins aren't really good in any campaign. If anything, this would be the perfect situation for one, though - everything is smitable and killable...unless you had planned on them negotiating or allying with some devils, in which case said Paladin in screwed no matter how many goodies you give him.

There's quite a few good PrC's out there that paladins are eligible for, see if you can talk him into picking up one of those. The easiest fix would be to do that and just allow him to return to taking paladin levels after leaving the class...always thought that was kinda dumb.

TheCountAlucard
2008-08-23, 11:16 AM
As inhospitable as Baator can be, I think a 9th-level paladin would be fully capable of surviving there with no modification, provided that he did not "act like a dang fool."

Nonetheless, if you wish to change things up, I don't see why not...

Proven_Paradox
2008-08-23, 11:28 AM
See if you can talk him into learning one of the many paladin rewrites that are actually worth a damn. Fax's rewrite (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=33551) is a lot of fun and almost as effective as a ToB character if done right. OneWinged4ngel's (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=761045) is a bit closer to the original paladin, but on the same level as the crusader; encounter rather than daily smites, more Lay on Hands than you can shake a stick at, and a vastly improved spell list make this something that can hold its own.

If you're looking for non-hombrewed alternatives, there's the Fist of Raziel PrC in the BoED. It features a whole lot of upgrades to smite attacks. Just let him take some free levels in that without worrying about the qualifying, and he'll be considerably stronger.

ZekeArgo
2008-08-23, 11:32 AM
Why doesn't he just play a crusader and call himself a paladin?

Waspinator
2008-08-23, 11:47 AM
Why doesn't he just play a crusader and call himself a paladin?

This. You can just voluntarily follow the Paladin code and be good to go.

Renegade Paladin
2008-08-23, 12:05 PM
Because the crusader's divine inspiration maneuver method is stupid.

I advocate OneWinged4ngel's rewrite, linked above.

Morty
2008-08-23, 12:07 PM
There's also this thing with copies of Tome of Battle not growing on trees.

monty
2008-08-23, 12:09 PM
There's also this thing with copies of Tome of Battle not growing on trees.

Well, they are made mostly of paper...

Eldariel
2008-08-23, 12:09 PM
There're enough for everyone willing to acquire one though. Not to mention, Frosty has one.

JackMage666
2008-08-23, 12:09 PM
If anything, this is the single type of campaign a Paladin should thrive - Flavorfully, too! Smite will be in high use, alot of his spells will be good. It's a pretty good settup. My suggestion, though...

Prestige Paladin (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/prestigiousCharacterClasses.htm#prestigePaladin) - Going at it with a Cleric means you'll get MUUUCH better spellcasting, and pretty much all the benefits of being a Paladin. You'll have a slightly lower BAB, and slightly lower saves, I think, but for the most part, you're golden - A Paladin with better spellcasting is always a good thing!

Vexxation
2008-08-23, 12:24 PM
I'd just turn smites into x/encounter rather than x/day.

That way, he doesn't have to worry about expending them early.
Other than that, a well-played non Lawful Stupid pally could do decently.

CASTLEMIKE
2008-08-23, 12:24 PM
One of my players loves Paladins...absolutely adores the idea of one. Unfortunately, we may also be starting a moderate to high level campaign soon where the players must invade the 9 Hells. Single classed Paladin surviving in Hell? Not so much. I'm thinking of letting him have a few goodies to help offset the Paladin's crappiness. Tell me what you think.

1) Give him a +1 LA for free...something simple like Aasimar. Enhances his paladin stuff. Or maybe Hellbred but give the Hellbred another +2 stat.

2) Give the Paladin the Crusader progression with Maneuvers (and the same recovery method)...OR give him free Gestalt for 10 of his levels in a class of my choosing. For example, like, from levels 11-20 he gets levels in Paladin *and* Hellreaver (FC2) or something.

3) A Pegasus mount...and arppoximately 200k free gold that can ONLY be spent on equipment to protect and enhance the mount.

I like the +1 LA (Paid down) with Gestalt of your choice.

Possibly the Prestige Paladin PRC with something like Warblade -3, F - 2, Cl-1, Prestige paladin -3 without Gestalt or tweaked with additional levels.

Edit: Maybe an Epona instead of a Pegasus (Planeshift 1/Day)

Eldariel
2008-08-23, 12:26 PM
I forgot - Ordained Champion. It's pretty much what Paladin should've been.

SadisticFishing
2008-08-23, 12:46 PM
I dunno why everyone says the paladin is weak. Just have him do some research before making the guy, and everything should be fine. Strong class, in its own right.

Starbuck_II
2008-08-23, 12:47 PM
I'd just turn smites into x/encounter rather than x/day.

That way, he doesn't have to worry about expending them early.
Other than that, a well-played non Lawful Stupid pally could do decently.

I like that one. After all, unless he takes Extra Smiting feat: he will have so few anyway.

Crow
2008-08-23, 12:48 PM
Let the player play what he wants.

In any case, you could reccomend the Prestige Paladin from Unearthed Arcana.

JackMage666
2008-08-23, 12:49 PM
Also, you could always give him - and only him - access to Complete Champion.

Friv
2008-08-23, 12:59 PM
I'm confused. I never thought of the Paladin as a weak class, and I would think this would be very much playing to his strengths. What's the flaw?

(Also, assuming this is 3.5?)

Albonor
2008-08-23, 01:11 PM
I concur:
Prestige Paladin with Fighter 1/cleric 4 would do well, as well as the Ordained Champion (But it is only good for 5 levels: is that enough for your campaign lenght?). The Silver flame guy from Eberon also does the same trick than the Prestige paladin, but is specialised against devils (silver/good weapon, etc). Cleric5/Initiate of the Silver flame (IIRC) 4-10 would do well without smite or mount but with class...

Eldariel
2008-08-23, 01:35 PM
Cleric 4/Ordained Champion 5 leads fine into Fist of Raziel (for full BAB and Smite-related abilities), or Sacred Exorcist/Radiant Servant/others for medium BAB (Divine Power fixes) and more abilities. I personally really like Cleric 4/Ordained Champion 5/Fist of Raziel 10/X 1 (for example, Prestige Paladin 1) or Cleric 4/Ordained Champion 5/Prestige Paladin 3/Sacred Exorcist/similar 8. Gets 9th level spells, albeit only on level 20, and has 1-to-full BAB without Divine Power and a host of combat abilities.

As for why Paladin is weak, just look at it and compare it to Cleric. Beyond full BAB (Divine Power), the only things a Paladin gain are Divine Grace (but they lack high Will-saves) and Mount (which is pretty minor and really, relatively easily acquisable). In response, Cleric is actually able to Turn Undead (Paladin-level is too low), gets Domains and most importantly, full casting (which can duplicate everything Paladin has and much more). Basically, a Paladin is a Fighter that has few set feats. A Fighter with some damage boost feats can compare to a Smiting Paladin all the time. And a Fighter is a poor class. Basically, a Paladin can match a Fighter occasionally vs. specific opponents and beyond that, is just about the level of an NPC Warrior. Oh, and there's the incredibly tight code and huge Multi Attribute Dependancy. If you're playing anything under 36 point buy, a Paladin is going to have insufficient stats to truly make the most out of his abilities (you need Str, Con, Wis, Cha - and you want some Dex for full AC and Combat Reflexes).

Waspinator
2008-08-23, 01:45 PM
Yeah, the problem is basically "Why not just be a Cleric?"


One thing to consider is taking a page from Pathfinder's book and making Paladin spell-casting Charisma based. Helps them a bit with making them not need too many stats. It's one of the couple of changes that they made that I really like.

SadisticFishing
2008-08-23, 01:55 PM
Grab Battle Blessing, and either Charging Smite or buff the crap out of your mount. I've heard of people doing crazy things with their mounts.

Okay, so it doesn't have full casting progression. Not every class has to be a druid or cleric.

Why play a Warblade or Swordsage when you can just play a druid?
Why play a non-wizard when you can just be a wizard?

Sure, the paladin isn't the strongest class, but it's by no means weak (Samurai, Healer, Swashbucker 4+).

Eldariel
2008-08-23, 02:04 PM
Because Warblades and Swordsages truly have something unique by comparison - a Paladin is just a really bad Cleric. Heck, even the flavour is the same, except with Paladin, you can't make anything except the one alignment, while with cleric you're open to make a Cleric devoted to anything (including the highest ideals of Lawful Good, which just makes him what Paladin shoulda been).

SadisticFishing
2008-08-23, 02:11 PM
What? No the flavor of paladin is completely different, if you want it to be. Dedicated to Law and Good, and you get your powers just from choosing to get powers? Bad arse.

Sure, clerics get more spellcasting, but Paladins get a cool pet :D

Eldariel
2008-08-23, 02:25 PM
What? No the flavor of paladin is completely different, if you want it to be. Dedicated to Law and Good, and you get your powers just from choosing to get powers? Bad arse.

You can build a Cleric with that exact flavour. You don't even need to worship a deity to be a Cleric.

Morty
2008-08-23, 02:42 PM
You can build a Cleric with that exact flavour. You don't even need to worship a deity to be a Cleric.

Well, except all those non-paladin spells tacked on, 3/4 BAB without Divine Power, d8 rather than d10 BAB, lack of smiting, mount, martial weapon proficiency...
Yes, cleric is much stronger than a paladin. But he's by no means a replacement for him.

Eldariel
2008-08-23, 02:46 PM
Well, except all those non-paladin spells tacked on, 3/4 BAB without Divine Power, d8 rather than d10 BAB, lack of smiting, mount, martial weapon proficiency...
Yes, cleric is much stronger than a paladin. But he's by no means a replacement for him.

You don't really believe what you're saying, do you? A Cleric can Smite just fine (Turns per day) if he feels like it, d8 - d10 is more than made up for by the fact that a Cleric is fine with 2 stats, not 4, martial weapon proficiencies are again...well, there's this thing called "War-Domain" that only uses half of Cleric's specialization options, and it gives Weapon Focus too - what comes to BAB, you said it yourself. That leaves the Mount. So yea, unless you want a Mount, there's no reason to make a Paladin. Even if you do want a Mount, you're better off as a Prestige Paladin > multiclass.

A Cleric takes pretty much exactly the same slot, except does everything better. And manages to be more customizable while at it.

Morty
2008-08-23, 02:51 PM
A Cleric takes pretty much exactly the same slot, except does everything better. And manages to be more customizable while at it.

Maybe for you. But I, and many other people, wouldn't feel they're playing a paladin if they played a cleric pretending to be a paladin, because they would indeed be playing a cleric pretending to be a paladin. And yes, I know what you're going to say: "Just refluff it". To which I response: refluffing isn't as magically easy and it's claimed.

Eldariel
2008-08-23, 02:59 PM
Maybe for you. But I, and many other people, wouldn't feel they're playing a paladin if they played a cleric pretending to be a paladin, because they would indeed be playing a cleric pretending to be a paladin. And yes, I know what you're going to say: "Just refluff it". To which I response: refluffing isn't as magically easy and it's claimed.

Why would you even need to refluff the Paladin? I mean, Cleric of Lawful Good alignment and a Paladin have the same fluff - both are champions and embodiments of Lawful Good. They can worship a deity or something, but they draw their powers from their belief in the alignment.

The only difference is that the class line reads "Cleric" instead of a "Paladin". Just write "Paladin" there and take Cleric-abilities each level if it makes it easier. But really, the class line really has nothing to do with the character - flavour and mechanics should be separate lest 3.5 doesn't really serve to present it.

SadisticFishing
2008-08-23, 03:03 PM
Because something is better than Paladin does not mean that paladin is bad.

If the guy wants to play an Ordained Champion, he will. If he doesn't, and wants to play a Paladin, a Paladin will work just fine.

A properly built mount is a HUGE thing, and yes, a Cleric can smite if he's an Ordained Champion, but then he's giving up caster levels. And not every spell a Cleric casts is swift.

Paladin is a very solid front line fighter. Don't let people who claim clerics are better get to you, in actual practice, Cleric is not much better, as it takes several rounds to fully buff, and a single well placed Dispel Magic destroyed all the plans.

Morty
2008-08-23, 03:04 PM
Why would you even need to refluff the Paladin? I mean, Cleric of Lawful Good alignment and a Paladin have the same fluff - both are champions and embodiments of Lawful Good. They can worship a deity or something, but they draw their powers from their belief in the alignment.

The only difference is that the class line reads "Cleric" instead of a "Paladin". Just write "Paladin" there and take Cleric-abilities each level if it makes it easier. But really, the class line really has nothing to do with the character - flavour and mechanics should be separate lest 3.5 doesn't really serve to present it.

Nope. The problem here is, paladin is warrior of faith. Cleric preaches the faith and helps its followers, but isn't a warrior. Cleric is overpowered, so he can fight like a dedicated warrior class, but thats' cleric's fault, not paladin's. Cleric is more overpowered than paladin is underpowered. And while paladin could use some tweaking, not everyone wants or needs to play a powerhouse such as cleric. This is in fact yet another point: cleric using his full melee potential is broken, and many people don't want to play such character.

Tokiko Mima
2008-08-23, 03:12 PM
One of my players loves Paladins...absolutely adores the idea of one. Unfortunately, we may also be starting a moderate to high level campaign soon where the players must invade the 9 Hells. Single classed Paladin surviving in Hell? Not so much. I'm thinking of letting him have a few goodies to help offset the Paladin's crappiness. Tell me what you think.

1) Give him a +1 LA for free...something simple like Aasimar. Enhances his paladin stuff. Or maybe Hellbred but give the Hellbred another +2 stat.

2) Give the Paladin the Crusader progression with Maneuvers (and the same recovery method)...OR give him free Gestalt for 10 of his levels in a class of my choosing. For example, like, from levels 11-20 he gets levels in Paladin *and* Hellreaver (FC2) or something.

3) A Pegasus mount...and arppoximately 200k free gold that can ONLY be spent on equipment to protect and enhance the mount.

Fourth option Frosty: Use this Paladin rebalance by Onewinged4ngel and Seerow. (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=761045) It's completely awesome and badass and yet not overpowered (in fact, it fixes a few things that can be abused in the normal Paladin build.) It works well with other ToB classes, because it's balanced with them instead of with Core Fighter.

:smallsmile:

Eldariel
2008-08-23, 03:16 PM
Nope. The problem here is, paladin is warrior of faith. Cleric preaches the faith and helps its followers, but isn't a warrior.

Why is that the only kind of Cleric possible? That's one archetype, sure, but you could play the "Holy Warrior"-kind of Cleric just as well without ever saying one word of preach. You could also play a preacher Paladin. There's nothing inherent to the classes that pigeon-holes them to those roles. If anything, Paladin is one type of a Cleric (as the flavour is more limited).

Actually, if you look at the suggested archetypes in PHBII, "Soldier of Divinity" is one variant of Cleric. Conversely, Paladin just has a bunch of different kinds of "Soldiers of Divinity".

Morty
2008-08-23, 03:21 PM
Why is that the only kind of Cleric possible? That's one archetype, sure, but you could play the "Holy Warrior"-kind of Cleric just as well without ever saying one word of preach. You could also play a preacher Paladin. There's nothing inherent to the classes that pigeon-holes them to those roles. If anything, Paladin is one type of a Cleric (as the flavour is more limited).


Ask WoTC, then, why did they put both classes into PHB. For me, the answer is obvious- Paladin, not Cleric, is supposed to represent the "knight in shining armor" theme. And he does that alright, until higher levels. The fact that cleric does that better is because the cleric class is broken when you use it that way. And playing broken characters is often not fun.

Eldariel
2008-08-23, 03:26 PM
Ask WoTC, then, why did they put both classes into PHB. For me, the answer is obvious- Paladin, not Cleric, is supposed to represent the "knight in shining armor" theme. And he does that alright, until higher levels. The fact that cleric does that better is because the cleric class is broken when you use it that way. And playing broken characters is often not fun.

I feel they put Paladin there solely because they wanted a basic Mounted character for players, so they split Cleric into two classes one of which can "call" a divine Mount and thus gives dumb players a natural road into Mounted Combat (the character needed to be divine/nature-powered, since the mount needs to be callable on command).

Morty
2008-08-23, 03:31 PM
I feel they put Paladin there solely because they wanted a basic Mounted character for players, so they split Cleric into two classes one of which can "call" a divine Mount and thus gives dumb players a natural road into Mounted Combat (the character needed to be divine/nature-powered, since the mount needs to be callable on command).

I admit I've never though about this possibility, as I think it's utterly improbable. I'll repeat myself when I say: I think Paladin is supposed to be a knight-like class, someone who fights for law and good with sword and clad in armor, as well as on mount. Cleric is supposed to be someone who can fight, but is worse at it than fighters, paladins and barbarians, because his role is to heal and aid with spells. I belive it's the most logical way to look at it.

Ralfarius
2008-08-23, 03:38 PM
If the Cleric ain't the holy warrior, then why'd they make a holy-guy-who-doesn't-hit-things class called the cloistered cleric? In fact, wasn't the Cleric made before the paladin and in the first edition of D&D a soldier devotee of a sacred order?

CASTLEMIKE
2008-08-23, 03:42 PM
I feel they put Paladin there solely because they wanted a basic Mounted character for players, so they split Cleric into two classes one of which can "call" a divine Mount and thus gives dumb players a natural road into Mounted Combat (the character needed to be divine/nature-powered, since the mount needs to be callable on command).



I admit I've never though about this possibility, as I think it's utterly improbable. I'll repeat myself when I say: I think Paladin is supposed to be a knight-like class, someone who fights for law and good with sword and clad in armor, as well as on mount. Cleric is supposed to be someone who can fight, but is worse at it than fighters, paladins and barbarians, because his role is to heal and aid with spells. I belive it's the most logical way to look at it.

You could both be looking at the same thing and just viewing it from a different perspective since Knights are normally mounted.

TheThan
2008-08-23, 03:44 PM
Ok to everyone who says “just play a different class” I have to say shut the f*** up. This guy is trying to help his friend play the character he wants to play. If that character happens to be something other than a cleric, druid, wizard or TOB class, that’s just fine. For crying out loud I’m sick and tired of people stomping on other classes just because they’re not in the top tier of power. Guess what, its ok to be under powered, it’s ok to be sub optimal. There is nothing wrong with it as long as everyone is having fun.

Seriously waltzing into someone’s thread and dropping a “just play class X instead”, is not whitty, cute funny or anything of the sort, its obnoxious. The OP asked for help and “just play X class instead” is not going to help. So if you can’t provide any real advice, just don’t offer any.

Now that I’m done ranting, I’m going to try to offer some real advise.


You’re friends character is going to be level nine you say? Well the major problem with the paladin is that he wanes in power after level 5 or so. So to be able to buff him up, I suggest modifying him to have a full spell progression; I would borrow from the sorcerer’s tables for spells per day and spell progression. Next I would change his smite evils to per encounter instead of per day. Next I change his remove disease to per day as well. The spells and other abilities would be charisma based. One more thing you might want to consider is to give the paladin spells that he can use on his mount (like magic fang for instance), so he can enhance his mount as well as himself.

No as for your ideas, the first one isn’t that bad, the Aasimar isn’t overpowered at all (in fact it’s a little on the low end of power, so it shouldn’t be a problem). I have no idea what Hellbred is so I can’t comment on it.
The crusader progression is a bad idea if no one else has access to TOB, if they do I guess it’s a good idea. As for the gestalt well, I’d avoid it unless other players have it. You don’t want your other players thinking you’re playing favorites.
The Pegasus mount I’m cool with, but the gold I’m not sure, I don’t recall off the top of my head how expensive it can get to equip a mount, so I’d have to start looking it up.

Lets see, that’s about it for now.

Morty
2008-08-23, 03:44 PM
If the Cleric ain't the holy warrior, then why'd they make a holy-guy-who-doesn't-hit-things class called the cloistered cleric? In fact, wasn't the Cleric made before the paladin and in the first edition of D&D a soldier devotee of a sacred order?

*shrug* I go with what I see as most logical explanation. And looking at cleric's d8 HD, lack of martial weapon proficiency and 3/4 BAB, I judge that cleric's melee capabilities were meant to be secondary, with emphasis put on "meant".


You could both be looking at the same thing and just viewing it from a different perspective since Knights are normally mounted.

That's a definite possibility, but I feel that the difference between cleric and paladin was supposed to be about something more than just mount.


Ok to everyone who says “just play a different class” I have to say shut the f*** up. This guy is trying to help his friend play the character he wants to play. If that character happens to be something other than a cleric, druid, wizard or TOB class, that’s just fine. For crying out loud I’m sick and tired of people stomping on other classes just because they’re not in the top tier of power. Guess what, its ok to be under powered, it’s ok to be sub optimal. There is nothing wrong with it as long as everyone is having fun.

Seriously waltzing into someone’s thread and dropping a “just play class X instead”, is not whitty, cute funny or anything of the sort, its obnoxious. The OP asked for help and “just play X class instead” is not going to help. So if you can’t provide any real advice, just don’t offer any.

Preety much what I was trying to say, only more staightforward.:smallcool:

CASTLEMIKE
2008-08-23, 03:51 PM
That's a definite possibility, but I feel that the difference between cleric and paladin was supposed to be about something more than just mount.


Perhaps the epitome of the chivalric idea. :smallsmile:

Morty
2008-08-23, 04:04 PM
Perhaps the epitome of the chivalric idea. :smallsmile:

Definetly. But even for Wizards, it's not enough to distinguish the class. And it doesn't have to be, because on low levels, before cleric turns into an offensive powerhouse, paladin is definetly better at close combat than him. Which indicates that lack of difference other than quality between paladin and cleric is a balance problem, not intentional design.

Eldariel
2008-08-23, 04:10 PM
Ok to everyone who says “just play a different class” I have to say shut the f*** up. This guy is trying to help his friend play the character he wants to play. If that character happens to be something other than a cleric, druid, wizard or TOB class, that’s just fine. For crying out loud I’m sick and tired of people stomping on other classes just because they’re not in the top tier of power. Guess what, its ok to be under powered, it’s ok to be sub optimal. There is nothing wrong with it as long as everyone is having fun.

Seriously waltzing into someone’s thread and dropping a “just play class X instead”, is not whitty, cute funny or anything of the sort, its obnoxious. The OP asked for help and “just play X class instead” is not going to help. So if you can’t provide any real advice, just don’t offer any.

Did you read the OP?


One of my players loves Paladins...absolutely adores the idea of one. Unfortunately, we may also be starting a moderate to high level campaign soon where the players must invade the 9 Hells. Single classed Paladin surviving in Hell? Not so much. I'm thinking of letting him have a few goodies to help offset the Paladin's crappiness. Tell me what you think.

He said he fears the Paladin can't keep up. THAT'S what spawned the suggestions: There're two more durable classes that can have the exact same fluff as a Paladin. Therefore those are suggested as the easy fixes - call them Paladin, use the other mechanics. There, a Paladin surviving in hell. What's wrong with solving things the easy way instead of going through a huge amount of homebrew when WoTC has already printed the solution?

Akimbo
2008-08-23, 04:13 PM
Okay class. Let's open our DMG to page 204 and read the suitable mounts section.

That's an assumed part of the Paladin Class. I recommend using whatever for five levels, and then at level 11 (when you get a CR 7 Flying mount), make it a very young Gold Dragon.

However you also still get Paladin special Mount abilities, so you then get to add some Dragon HD (you know the none sucky ones).

And you know, trade out for a higher age category Dragon at every few levels.

ColonelFuster
2008-08-23, 04:14 PM
He'll be fine.
Just open up BoED for him.

SadisticFishing
2008-08-23, 04:14 PM
My responses have been based on the assumption that the characters haven't been made yet, and so there is no lagging behind to be seen, just guessed at.

Be careful with your building, and you should be fine.

I don't remember the forum rules well enough, are we allowed to link to other forums?

Akimbo
2008-08-23, 04:20 PM
Definetly. But even for Wizards, it's not enough to distinguish the class. And it doesn't have to be, because on low levels, before cleric turns into an offensive powerhouse, paladin is definetly better at close combat than him. Which indicates that lack of difference other than quality between paladin and cleric is a balance problem, not intentional design.

At what levels do you think a Paladin is better in combat then a Cleric?

Level 1: -1 to attack, using a crappier weapon, but has Magic Weapon that negates both of those, or Divine Power, or Both. And Domains vs aura, domain can even hand out weapon focus if you really care.

Level 2: Read level 1, add better saves to Paladin.

Level 3: Okay, so now Paladin is attacking at same attack bonus, for less damage all day, and that's not counting those first level spells that the Cleric still has.

Level 4: See level 3.

Level 5: Mount is the only way a Paladin has a chance of keeping up with the Cleric. See all posts about Mount vs no mount.

As far as I can tell, Paladins either break even or are behind at every level before they get a mount, at which point it really does become mount central time.

SadisticFishing
2008-08-23, 04:23 PM
Not wasting a round buffing is a huge thing.

People always assume clerics are fully buffed, and that's silly.

Morty
2008-08-23, 04:24 PM
Level 1: -1 to attack, using a crappier weapon, but has Magic Weapon that negates both of those, or Divine Power, or Both. And Domains vs aura, domain can even hand out weapon focus if you really care.

Um, Divine Power is kind of level 4 spell. And you only get so much spells per day as a 1st level cleric, not to mention Magic Weapon only works for 1 minute then. Perhaps you mean Divine Favor, which also lasts one minute, and along with MW takes up two slots.


Level 3: Okay, so now Paladin is attacking at same attack bonus, for less damage all day, and that's not counting those first level spells that the Cleric still has.

Less damage? Don't forget paladin has got better weapon and more BAB to use with Power Attack and cleric doesn't have Divine Power yet.


As far as I can tell, Paladins either break even or are behind at every level before they get a mount, at which point it really does become mount central time.

And as far as I can tell, you're underestimating the Paladin and overestimating the Cleric.

Eldariel
2008-08-23, 04:36 PM
Level 1 Cleric with War-domain has Weapon Focus as a bonus feat to make up for the BAB difference. This is without using the second domain or the first level feats or spells or anything.

Level 1 Cleric could also be of the DMM: Persistent-variant; with 10 Charisma and Planning and Undeath Domains, he can Persist a spell already on level 1. And this just gets stronger as time goes on. Alternatively, he could be using DMM: Quicken, which isn't as strong, but kicks in earlier and costs one less feat.


EDIT: Why are we even having this discussion? We know a Cleric is better, especially on a game starting on level 9. I thought that was given to start with.

Morty
2008-08-23, 04:44 PM
Level 1 Cleric with War-domain has Weapon Focus as a bonus feat to make up for the BAB difference. This is without using the second domain or the first level feats or spells or anything.

Level 1 Cleric could also be of the DMM: Persistent-variant; with 10 Charisma and Planning and Undeath Domains, he can Persist a spell already on level 1. And this just gets stronger as time goes on. Alternatively, he could be using DMM: Quicken, which isn't as strong, but kicks in earlier and costs one less feat.

Agreed on the first point, but I don't think cleric using a feat widely regarded as broken counts as paladin's weakness.


EDIT: Why are we even having this discussion? We know a Cleric is better, especially on a game starting on level 9. I thought that was given to start with.

OP asks for help for a paladin character. I don't know if the player in question will agree to "just play a cleric instead" advice, but it's safer to assume he won't. I know I wouldn't.
As for the cleric vs. paladin discussion: discussions about classes in 3ed tend to steer in this direction.

ZekeArgo
2008-08-23, 04:52 PM
There's also this thing with copies of Tome of Battle not growing on trees.

Oh, so when he said he would just give the paladin the crusader progression from the initial post, that means he doesn't have access to the ToB?

Or, judging from your following posts, do you just think that in order to play a "champion of law and good" your class has to be Paladin, and nothing else will ever make you able to play that role?

Eldariel
2008-08-23, 04:53 PM
How about we just stop assuming and wait for Frosty to tell us what this guy wants and what he accepted and what they ended up with and if there's anything else he needs help with? I think all the relevant options have already been presented in the Paladin homebrews, Crusader, Prestige Paladin, straight Cleric and Ordained Champion.

As he said, it's a high level game and judging by Frosty's knowledge of the game, it won't be very low on power either, so some of those rather than a straight Paladin would serve better.

Morty
2008-08-23, 04:56 PM
Oh, so when he said he would just give the paladin the crusader progression from the initial post, that means he doesn't have access to the ToB?

I admit, I've overlooked that bit, and "just use ToB" advice tends to irk me, because as I said, not everyone owns. My bad.


Or, judging from your following posts, do you just think that in order to play a "champion of law and good" your class has to be Paladin, and nothing else will ever make you able to play that role?

Talk about jumping to conclusions... from what I've heard, Crusader seems to be a good replacement for Paladin. It's just that, as I said, not everyone has got ToB. I don't think I'll ever understand why are people so overprotective about this book. Or maybe it's just a normal assumption that the other person is stupid that seems to be getting popular these days.

bosssmiley
2008-08-23, 04:58 PM
One of my players loves Paladins...absolutely adores the idea of one. Unfortunately, we may also be starting a moderate to high level campaign soon where the players must invade the 9 Hells. Single classed Paladin surviving in Hell? Not so much. I'm thinking of letting him have a few goodies to help offset the Paladin's crappiness. Tell me what you think.

Given that even the landscape detects as Evil in Baator a Paladin in Hell is really only likely to work in the mid-to-long term in one of two ways. Either:

a) covert incursion (do the mission, avoid the baatezu like the plague, do what little good you can to bring hope to the Nine Hells, retreat to Acheron or the Outlands between raids),

or

b) play with a "Planescape"-style ethical view where 'capital G' Good and 'capital E' Evil are really not much more than political viewpoints which allow even mortal enemies like Devils, Archons and Paladins to work with the other side to achieve mutual ends.

As to giving the Pally a bit more personal clout. There's really no need to resort to DM's sympathy handouts. If you can get your head around the idea that Full BAB + 4th level spells actually mean exactly nothing at 16th+ level you might want to try the Tome series (http://www.tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?t=48453) Kantian (ethics > morals) paladin. 6th level spell use and class abilities that scale meaningfully will go some way to enhancing his chances of survival.

Mando Knight
2008-08-23, 05:05 PM
3) A Pegasus mount...and arppoximately 200k free gold that can ONLY be spent on equipment to protect and enhance the mount.

Why Pegasus? I'd personally prefer a Wyvern... but then, I'm Haar-biased.
http://serenesforest.net/media/fe9illust/s/Haar.jpg

Give him a high-HD flying mount, but don't count the existing HD against the creature's Special Mount advancement, as well as giving him free mount armor (and give the mount the necessary armor proficiency feats). That might be a good start... but it won't fully bring the 3.5 Paladin up to snuff.

Akimbo
2008-08-23, 05:15 PM
Um, Divine Power is kind of level 4 spell. And you only get so much spells per day as a 1st level cleric, not to mention Magic Weapon only works for 1 minute then. Perhaps you mean Divine Favor, which also lasts one minute, and along with MW takes up two slots.

1) Yes I mean Divine Favor, but the point is either spell brings him up to level with the Paladin on it's own, so the fact that he can have one or more running at any given time means he can choose to be worse against mooks and better against bosses if he wants (seriously War Domain and something else, and he already has the same to hit as the Paladin until level 5, where he gets second level spells). Not to mention if you declare DMM crazy broken and not applicable, then Charisma is a dump stat, and the Cleric can probably afford a higher Str then the Paladin.


Less damage? Don't forget paladin has got better weapon and more BAB to use with Power Attack and cleric doesn't have Divine Power yet.

But you forgot that the Cleric can cast Brambles and get a +1 bonus to hit, and a +3 to damage. Not to mention his Domain Spell and his first level spells.

So A Cleric with a slightly higher to hit, and more damage, versus a Paladin who could theoretically Power attack for one more point if it were a good idea in that situation.


And as far as I can tell, you're underestimating the Paladin and overestimating the Cleric.

As far as I can tell you completely forgot that the Cleric can cast spells and think Divine Power/Righteous Might are the only spells that Clerics use to be better Fighters then Fighters.

Morty
2008-08-23, 05:24 PM
1) Yes I mean Divine Favor, but the point is either spell brings him up to level with the Paladin on it's own, so the fact that he can have one or more running at any given time means he can choose to be worse against mooks and better against bosses if he wants (seriously War Domain and something else, and he already has the same to hit as the Paladin until level 5, where he gets second level spells). Not to mention if you declare DMM crazy broken and not applicable, then Charisma is a dump stat, and the Cleric can probably afford a higher Str then the Paladin.

So the cleric can bring himself to paladin's level with spells. Spells he's got only several on low level and none of them will work longer than few minutes. So if the cleric spends them to be at paladin's level, he can't heal, bless and the like, which means he's not that much stronger than paladin after all.


But you forgot that the Cleric can cast Brambles and get a +1 bonus to hit, and a +3 to damage. Not to mention his Domain Spell and his first level spells.

Brambles? I've never heard of that spell. Where is it from? EDIT: Alright, I've found it. It's good but it works for round/level.


So A Cleric with a slightly higher to hit, and more damage, versus a Paladin who could theoretically Power attack for one more point if it were a good idea in that situation.

Again, Cleric needs to use his precious spells to bring himself to this level, whereas paladin simply attacks.


As far as I can tell you completely forgot that the Cleric can cast spells and think Divine Power/Righteous Might are the only spells that Clerics use to be better Fighters then Fighters.

Do you always assume people discussing with you are stupid? Just curious.

Chronicled
2008-08-23, 05:39 PM
Why has nobody mentioned the Hellreaver PrC? It's from Fiendish Codex 2, and is a pseudo-ToB class that is all about fighting evil outsiders. Rather than get maneuvers, it gets a number of "holy rage" points that let it deal more damage, boost saves, and heal each encounter--and the number of points are based off of Charisma. It's the perfect lead-in from a Paladin mechanically and fluff-wise (especially here), plus you can start at level 5 with virtually no prerequisites (Power Attack. That's it.)

Edit: Actually, it's more like the Factotum than any ToB class.


Again, Cleric needs to use his precious spells to bring himself to this level, whereas paladin simply attacks.

So a Cleric needs to use his class features to make himself equal/better than the paladin's class features? Sounds fine to me.

Morty
2008-08-23, 05:58 PM
So a Cleric needs to use his class features to make himself equal/better than the paladin's class features? Sounds fine to me.

A paladin can attack with full BAB and greatsword all day, while cleric needs to use spells for this, which means he can't heal, bless and use other standard cleric mojo while doing this.
And anyway, even if cleric is equal or better in combat than paladin on low levels, which depends heavily on how is cleric's player bent on achieving this, it's by no means paladin's fault.

SadisticFishing
2008-08-23, 06:03 PM
Hellreaver!

Zomg I've been in 4e too long. The class is incredible.

Paladin 5/Hellreaver 10/x 5, giving up Spellcasting for bonus feats (Complete Champion) looks to me to be a very solid build option, especially considering you're going into Hell.

Hal
2008-08-23, 06:08 PM
Phew, lots of hubbub in here. I hope I can still make a meaningful contribution.

I'll add my voice to the votes for the rebalanced paladin by OneWinged4ngel. It seems like it gives the paladin a lot more options and really works well with the classic, paragon idea of a paladin.

If you don't care for that idea, let me add some quick, probably need balancing suggestions:

1) Make the paladin a spontaneous caster. You can fix the number of spells he can learn, but it seems like letting him cast anything on the paladin spell list isn't going to make anyone swoon. If you think he needs more spells per day, well, that couldn't hurt either. As someone also suggested, basing it on Charisma wouldn't hurt either.

2) Replace Remove Disease with bonus feats. You can take them from the list of Paladin bonus feats found in Complete Champion if you like. Honestly, I wish there were more ACFs for this one.

3) As others have suggested, Smite Evil as a per encounter feature.

4) Turn Undead progression as a cleric, rather than the normal reduced manner.

5) If those things aren't good enough for you, do one of two things for the special mount: Throw in some mounted combat feats for free or replace it something that will grow in power the same as him. Give him Leadership instead of the special mount so he can have a squire or something to that effect. I'm appalled by a lot of the ACFs for the special mount that are relatively static class features when the mount becomes progressively stronger as the character levels.

That's my input. Hopefully you'll find something useful in it.

Akimbo
2008-08-23, 06:55 PM
So the cleric can bring himself to paladin's level with spells. Spells he's got only several on low level and none of them will work longer than few minutes. So if the cleric spends them to be at paladin's level, he can't heal, bless and the like, which means he's not that much stronger than paladin after all.

Unless he uses DMM Persist, in which case he's always better then the Paladin, and can do other things. But yes, by choosing specific spells, he is exactly like a better Paladin in combat, at these levels, and just as useful outside of it.


Brambles? I've never heard of that spell. Where is it from? EDIT: Alright, I've found it. It's good but it works for round/level.

And it can be Persisted, and most fights don't take longer then 3 rounds anyway.


Again, Cleric needs to use his precious spells to bring himself to this level, whereas paladin simply attacks.

Yes, how dare a class with 3-4 spells at level 1 expect to be able to use 1 of them, all he needs to be better then a Paladin. And to expect to use 1 spell out of 8 every day even though there is a perfect right there reason for him to have that spell up all day. Not to mention his other 7 spells if for some reason he couldn't keep it up.


Do you always assume people discussing with you are stupid? Just curious.

Only when they start by assuming I am and then present a point that completely ignores 99% of the cases in question. (So 2 for 2 on this forum.)

But really I know Emperor Tippy isn't, so I'll just assume you aren't as well, despite meeting my normal criteria.

SadisticFishing
2008-08-23, 08:09 PM
Um, Akimbo, don't bring things like DMM: Persist into a game discussion. DMM: Persist is stupid. Much like Pun-Pun and the omnificer.

The cleric can cast a spell, which costs a round, in a fight that normally lasts less than 3-4 rounds. Being the same as a paladin, minus a round, is not at ALL the same as a paladin.

Clerics don't have the raw damage ouput that a Rhino's Rush Charging Smite Shock Trooper Leap Attack paladin can bring to the fore.

Duff
2008-08-23, 08:23 PM
Would "Knight of the Chalice" be a viable Prc in this sort of situation? I've got a similar position.

SCPRedMage
2008-08-23, 09:43 PM
I feel they put Paladin there solely because they wanted a basic Mounted character for players, so they split Cleric into two classes one of which can "call" a divine Mount and thus gives dumb players a natural road into Mounted Combat (the character needed to be divine/nature-powered, since the mount needs to be callable on command).
History lesson time...

The Cleric class was originally introduced into 1e D&D to represent the "fighting priest"; in fact, the to weapons that do no draw blood that the Cleric had in previous editions was based on the Catholic dictum regarding priests on crusade.

The Paladin was introduced into 1e to represent the image of the "holy knight", such as Percival or Roland. Since their mount is so very, very important to their image, it became one of their class features.

The Clerics and Paladins of 3e are simply evolutions of the concepts. Which, I suppose, is just an obscenely long-winded way of say this:

Paladins weren't created for Mounted Combat. Mounted Combat was created for Paladins.:smalltongue:

Chronicled
2008-08-23, 09:47 PM
Would "Knight of the Chalice" be a viable Prc in this sort of situation? I've got a similar position.

Hellreaver would be leagues better, and probably more fun to play. Knight of the Chalice isn't very good.

Nerd-o-rama
2008-08-23, 09:51 PM
Paladins are not a weak class. They tend to be one-dimensional, self-buff-and-burst-damage dealers, but they are good at that - at least as good as a Cleric. A Cleric can just do a lot of other stuff as well. Even a single-classed Paladin built around charging and smiting will do well in a campaign in the Nine Hells (as long as he plays tactically enough not to get in over his head - you're a burst damage dealer, not Leeroy Jenkins).

What Paladins can do:
Lots of damage to Evil enemies
Tanking
Emergency Healing
Buffing (best used on himself)

What Paladins cannot do:
Main spellcasting
Any sort of skill builds other than Diplomancer (for which Bard is better)
Feat-heavy gadget builds
Survive a jackass DM (not a problem here)

Alternate Class Features I recommend:
Charging Smite (PHB2) - the bread and butter of the modern Chargeadin. Only go Mount and Lance if you're guaranteed to be able to use it
Curse Breaker (CMage) - hey, it's better than Remove Disease, and it costs you a whopping two skill points
Holy Warrior (CChamp) - only if you have to dump Wisdom, or just really want to play a Tripping Paladin.

Feats I recommend:
Power Attack - obvious, but also leads to
1. Leap Attack (CAdv)
2. Divine Might (CDiv)
Extra Smiting (CDiv) - obvious
Improved Smiting (CDiv) - only if you're not making your Smites Good-aligned by some PrC feature.
Holy Warrior (CChamp) - lets you self-buff with minimal prep time
Awesome Smite (CChamp) - tripping, DR negating, and Concealment negating all in one neat package. If you can squeeze in Improved Trip without losing too much else (will require rolling well for stats or careful point-buy finagling), Awesome Smite's free trip attempt nets you an extra attack every time you Smite something that's not a Str or Dex monkey.

Combine a two-hander, Leap Attack, Charging Smite, Awesome Smite, the Rhino's Rush spell, and go to town. Once you're in the thick of melee and can't charge, use Divine Might to pump out lots of damage on your full attacks (note: never attempt to actually use Turn Undead for its original purpose. It's there to add you Cha to stuff, nothing more).

PRC's I recommend:
Fist of Raziel (BoED) - from the dreaded Book of Exalted Cheese. It's not so bad though, and doesn't require any of those horrid Sacred Vow-based feats. As a Paladin, you're pretty much Exalted anyway, enough to take Servant of the Heavens and this class at least.
Knight of the Chalice (CDiv)
Exorcist of the Silver Flame (ECS) - probably Eberron Only, but you can ask.
For this campaign, Hellreaver (FC2)
Cavalier, if and only if you go for Lance and Mount instead of Charging Smite, which I don't recommend.

Akimbo
2008-08-23, 09:54 PM
Um, Akimbo, don't bring things like DMM: Persist into a game discussion. DMM: Persist is stupid. Much like Pun-Pun and the omnificer.

No DMM Persist with infinite night sticks is stupid. DMM Persist powering it with your own turn attempts is well within the power level of a Wizard 5/PrC X/PrC Y, where none of those is Incantatrix.


The cleric can cast a spell, which costs a round, in a fight that normally lasts less than 3-4 rounds. Being the same as a paladin, minus a round, is not at ALL the same as a paladin.

Or you can cast those spells before you need them.


Clerics don't have the raw damage ouput that a Rhino's Rush Charging Smite Shock Trooper Leap Attack paladin can bring to the fore.

Yes they do, which is to say, then can easily do over 1000 damage in one round, which is all it takes to kill anything that will die that way.

Also, you do realize that Leap Attack doesn't apply on mounted charges right?

Nerd-o-rama
2008-08-23, 10:00 PM
Also, you do realize that Leap Attack doesn't apply on mounted charges right?Which is why you use it with the Charging Smite variant, not while mounted on your Special Mount (which you don't have if you took Charging Smite).

Just thought I'd clear that up.

SadisticFishing
2008-08-23, 10:01 PM
No. DMM: Persist is always stupid and unfair, and should be banned from any semi-serious (in a fun way) campaign. Nightsticks just make it worse.

Divine Favor: 1 minute.
Brambles: 1 rd/lvl
Magic Weapon: 1 min/lvl

Not so much, unless you know exactly when you're going to be getting into fights. If you're starting every fight, sure. If the DM isn't a video game, then most definitely not every fight.

Yes, no Leap Attack on a mount, though by the rules you totally can (and it leaves an awesome image in my mind :P jump off a moving warhorse and land back on it just after you connect... some sort of weird momentum-a-pult.

Rhino's Rush does a *hell* of a lot of damage. Don't underrate it.

turkishproverb
2008-08-23, 10:33 PM
Ok to everyone who says “just play a different class” I have to say shut the f*** up. This guy is trying to help his friend play the character he wants to play. If that character happens to be something other than a cleric, druid, wizard or TOB class, that’s just fine. For crying out loud I’m sick and tired of people stomping on other classes just because they’re not in the top tier of power. Guess what, its ok to be under powered, it’s ok to be sub optimal. There is nothing wrong with it as long as everyone is having fun.

Seriously waltzing into someone’s thread and dropping a “just play class X instead”, is not whitty, cute funny or anything of the sort, its obnoxious. The OP asked for help and “just play X class instead” is not going to help. So if you can’t provide any real advice, just don’t offer any.

Now that I’m done ranting, I’m going to try to offer some real advise.


You’re friends character is going to be level nine you say? Well the major problem with the paladin is that he wanes in power after level 5 or so. So to be able to buff him up, I suggest modifying him to have a full spell progression; I would borrow from the sorcerer’s tables for spells per day and spell progression. Next I would change his smite evils to per encounter instead of per day. Next I change his remove disease to per day as well. The spells and other abilities would be charisma based. One more thing you might want to consider is to give the paladin spells that he can use on his mount (like magic fang for instance), so he can enhance his mount as well as himself.

No as for your ideas, the first one isn’t that bad, the Aasimar isn’t overpowered at all (in fact it’s a little on the low end of power, so it shouldn’t be a problem). I have no idea what Hellbred is so I can’t comment on it.
The crusader progression is a bad idea if no one else has access to TOB, if they do I guess it’s a good idea. As for the gestalt well, I’d avoid it unless other players have it. You don’t want your other players thinking you’re playing favorites.
The Pegasus mount I’m cool with, but the gold I’m not sure, I don’t recall off the top of my head how expensive it can get to equip a mount, so I’d have to start looking it up.

Lets see, that’s about it for now.


Wow. Seconded, aside from full spell progression which seems a bit uber.

Frosty
2008-08-23, 11:31 PM
Why has nobody mentioned the Hellreaver PrC? It's from Fiendish Codex 2, and is a pseudo-ToB class that is all about fighting evil outsiders. Rather than get maneuvers, it gets a number of "holy rage" points that let it deal more damage, boost saves, and heal each encounter--and the number of points are based off of Charisma. It's the perfect lead-in from a Paladin mechanically and fluff-wise (especially here), plus you can start at level 5 with virtually no prerequisites (Power Attack. That's it.)

Edit: Actually, it's more like the Factotum than any ToB class.

Emphasis mine:
2) Give the Paladin the Crusader progression with Maneuvers (and the same recovery method)...OR give him free Gestalt for 10 of his levels in a class of my choosing. For example, like, from levels 11-20 he gets levels in Paladin *and* Hellreaver (FC2) or something.

I mentioned it in my opening post :) Basically, the player doesn't want to mess with too many homebrewed or prestige classes. Yes, changing a bit of the features (like replacing Remove Disease with Bonus Feats) is fine. Adding a well-defined existing feature (like Crusader Maneuvers) is fine. But if he needs Paladin 5/PrC1 5/PrC2 10, he doesn't see it has a Paladin anymore. I've talked to him a bit about it. So far he has rejected the idea of going Cleric (plus, in this game, I give clerics only Light armor proficiency, light shield proficiency, and no Divine Power. However, they do get 6 skillpoints a level and a bigger skill list). He appears to be leaning towards getting ToB Maneuver progressions, given the choice between getting Hellrever for free or having the Crusader maneuver progression (and recovery method). He does like the Hellreaver, but I think he likes Maneuvers better. The only question is, will it overpower the Paladin or not? I tend to think this just puts it on par with the Crusader or perhaps just a tad more powerful.

BTW, where are you guys getting the idea that this campaign starts at level 9? It starts at level 16, where caster should OMG dominate. There's going to be a Batman in the group one of my other friends called it already. I'm not sure what else will be played though. The casters will not be getting any extra goodies (and they understand that because they know that Wizards don't NEED the help)

Hmm...having a Dragon mount is...interesting, but would it be a tad too powerful? I'll need to look at the rules of getting a Large dragon for him to ride.

Akimbo
2008-08-24, 12:18 AM
Which is why you use it with the Charging Smite variant, not while mounted on your Special Mount (which you don't have if you took Charging Smite).

Just thought I'd clear that up.

Fair enough, I thought I saw Spirit Charge in there somewhere which is Why I said that.


No. DMM: Persist is always stupid and unfair, and should be banned from any semi-serious (in a fun way) campaign. Nightsticks just make it worse.

So in other words: Shocktrooper + Leap Attack + Battle Charge + Orc double damage on Charge = 1 point of AC for 16 damage: Totally fair.

Persistent Divine Favor, maybe Spikes at level 5: HAXXORZ!


Divine Favor: 1 minute.
Brambles: 1 rd/lvl
Magic Weapon: 1 min/lvl

Not so much, unless you know exactly when you're going to be getting into fights. If you're starting every fight, sure. If the DM isn't a video game, then most definitely not every fight.

So how dare they play tactically and avoid getting ambushed? Or start fights from farther then 80ft away, or move silently and have the rogue scout. Yeah, what total jerks, trying to not be big stupid brutes that kick down doors.

No they don't get it every time. Yes they do get it 75% of the time, and the other 25% of the time they spend a single standard action (leaving them with a move action to get closer if they need/want to) to become a better fighter then the Paladin. Of course at level 1-3 they are usually just flat equal to a paladin without casting any spells, but whatever.


Yes, no Leap Attack on a mount, though by the rules you totally can (and it leaves an awesome image in my mind :P jump off a moving warhorse and land back on it just after you connect... some sort of weird momentum-a-pult.

No, by the rules you totally can't. That's why they have errata.


Rhino's Rush does a *hell* of a lot of damage. Don't underrate it.

I know it does a hell of a lot of damage, but my point is that no one actually cares if you do 1000 damage or 2000 damage (well, not on one charge attack, when you are doing it with a full attack from a Bow, that's another story all together, since you can split it between targets.)

mabriss lethe
2008-08-24, 12:40 AM
hmm. maybe get the paladin to pick up one or possibly two of the Domain feats. Since their turn attempts aren't going to be much use against level appropriate undead, the paladin could use it for some other purpose (especially when your access to spells is still trifling and DMM just seems like a waste/ isn't permitted.)

Some that fit the thematic bill for a paladin while being somewhat useful
-healing
-Law
-Protection
-strength
-sun
-War

Good fits thematically, but would be wasted on your scenario (since it's DR that is overcome with evil aligned weapons, something virtually all fiends posess)

Chaos, Death, Evil, and Trickery really don't fit with the ideals of of a paladin.

the rest, I'd allow, but would vet on a case by case basis, and should probably have some sort of interesting story to go along with it.

Nerd-o-rama
2008-08-24, 01:15 AM
BTW, where are you guys getting the idea that this campaign starts at level 9? It starts at level 16, where caster should OMG dominate. There's going to be a Batman in the group one of my other friends called it already. I'm not sure what else will be played though. The casters will not be getting any extra goodies (and they understand that because they know that Wizards don't NEED the help)

Hmm...having a Dragon mount is...interesting, but would it be a tad too powerful? I'll need to look at the rules of getting a Large dragon for him to ride.Well, at level 16, yeah, casters break the game. But unless they play perfectly, they still need meatshields and people to actually do hitpoint damage while they render the enemy unable to do crap. Just because fullcasters are overpowered doesn't mean that it's not fun or necessary to play regular old bashers in the same group.

I don't follow your personal gaming life, Frosty. Do you play high-level games often, or are you going by their reputation in this here community?

Frosty
2008-08-24, 01:19 AM
My games so far have generally been up to level 13 or 14. Levels 16 and up are somewhat new to me as a DM, but I have started some PBP games at high levels, and I am decently well-read on the theories of higher level play. But starting as early as level 9, I have seen non-ToB/non-caster characters fall behind (like the Fighter, the Dragon Shaman, and the Paladin I've DMed in the past).

Akimbo
2008-08-24, 01:35 AM
they still need meatshields and people to actually do hitpoint damage while they render the enemy unable to do crap. Just because fullcasters are overpowered doesn't mean that it's not fun or necessary to play regular old bashers in the same group.

1) Meatshields don't exist.

2) Deal hit point damage? Like a Rogue/Cleric Archer or Druid?

3) Yeah, it kinda does, that's what being a better fighter then a fighter means. (this regards the necessary part, not the fun part, though I don't generally find fighters fun either.)

Frosty
2008-08-24, 01:48 AM
Well, you *can* build meatshields...they're just restricted to being a useful tank when used against other meatshields. Things with rangedabilities will just shoot past the meatshield and try to hit the caster.

tyckspoon
2008-08-24, 02:17 AM
Well, you *can* build meatshields...they're just restricted to being a useful tank when used against other meatshields. Things with rangedabilities will just shoot past the meatshield and try to hit the caster.

Or the enemy melee combatants will just walk around your front-line to attempt to engage the softer people. And that's ignoring, for the moment, the wide variety of creatures that can fly, burrow, or teleport to pretty much wherever they want to be- the last group is particularly common in planar adventures. 3d movement can wreck even those reach-tripper/Stand Still/Knockdown builds that otherwise do alright on flat ground.. frankly, meatshielding in 3E D&D only works if the DM picks monsters and tactics such as to let it work. (Yes, yes, the same can be said of magic. The difference is that spellcasting offers a much broader variety of things that have to be countered, and a monster that defeats one can probably still be taken down with a different one. Meatshields typically have just the one, maybe two things they're really good at.)

Nerd-o-rama
2008-08-24, 02:22 AM
1) Meatshields don't exist.Ceded based on other peoples' examples.


2) Deal hit point damage? Like a Rogue/Cleric Archer or Druid?
Exactly. Paladins are just as good at that one role as anyone else can possibly be. They just have very limited secondary abilities compared to Clerics, Druids, or Wizards.


3) Yeah, it kinda does, that's what being a better fighter then a fighter means. (this regards the necessary part, not the fun part, though I don't generally find fighters fun either.)Well, I find Paladins fun. Frosty's player obviously finds Paladins fun. No they aren't necessary at high levels, but he's not going to be instantly useless and dead just because the system is biased toward casters.


Remember, this is a game. He should play what he wants as long as he's not disrupting anyone else's fun (which includes whining about being redundant in combat). Not every party has to be perfectly optimal to have fun, guys.

You want to give him bonus abilities for picking a "weak" class, Frosty? Go right ahead. Aasimar isn't worth LA +1 (hell, even if it was LA 0 I'd probably still go with Human), that's fine to give him for free. I'd also like to point out to him that a lot of recommended Prestige Classes in this thread aren't "not a paladin". They're effectively specialist Paladins, or specialist Clerics. Doesn't make him "not a paladin".

Akimbo
2008-08-24, 02:32 AM
Well, I find Paladins fun. Frosty's player obviously finds Paladins fun. No they aren't necessary at high levels, but he's not going to be instantly useless and dead just because the system is biased toward casters.

Remember, this is a game. He should play what he wants as long as he's not disrupting anyone else's fun (which includes whining about being redundant in combat). Not every party has to be perfectly optimal to have fun, guys.

I never claimed they couldn't be fun, just that I don't find them fun. Nor did I ever say that they would be useless. The only thing I did was point out that Clerics are just as good or better then Paladins at dealing damage at low levels.

Also, no Paladins aren't just as good as anyone else at dealing damage, Cleric Archers/Rogues/Druids win out due to the ability to spread damage around against multiple targets.

Heck a sufficient Blasphemy optimization (which can really only occur at higher levels, though could easily be in play at the level of this campaign) completely negates the need to do more then 1 point of melee damage, or if they do a really good job, the need to do any at all.

Frosty
2008-08-24, 02:33 AM
You think Human is better than Aasimar?

Nerd-o-rama
2008-08-24, 02:43 AM
An extra feat and one skill point per level are not to be underestimated, especially for those of us who do like to employ PrCs.


I never claimed they couldn't be fun, just that I don't find them fun. Nor did I ever say that they would be useless. The only thing I did was point out that Clerics are just as good or better then Paladins at dealing damage at low levels.I never read that, so I think we're talking across each other rather than actually arguing. I apologize, I should have paid more attention to who said what.


Also, no Paladins aren't just as good as anyone else at dealing damage, Cleric Archers/Rogues/Druids win out due to the ability to spread damage around against multiple targets.All depends on the tactical situation. And I said the others were more versatile, didn't I?

Give me a day or so and I'll build a Paladin based on full attacking rather than charging...it's a weird build though, and involves a significant amoung of bard.


Heck a sufficient Blasphemy optimization (which can really only occur at higher levels, though could easily be in play at the level of this campaign) completely negates the need to do more then 1 point of melee damage, or if they do a really good job, the need to do any at all.At the words "Blasphemy optimization", I'm going to have to call munchkinry or, at least, "not fun". Because the game ceases to be fun when everything you oppose instantly dies with no save or defense. Every swarm o' low-level mooks, maybe, but when you start Blaspheming guys five levels above you to death...

Frosty
2008-08-24, 02:52 AM
With Travel devotion, Full-attacking is EASY.

serow
2008-08-24, 05:30 AM
You could power up the class by giving full caster level instead of half; giving it a strong will save; changing all Paladin abilities to work off Wisdom instead of Charisma (optional); changing Turn Undead level to full instead of -3; smite to per-encounter; giving it the Lay-On-Hands-Plus of the Dragon Shaman; changing Remove Disease etc to daily; not giving it any penalty for losing the Mount;

And it'd be about right, since it's still not getting full spellcasting.
:smallsmile:

CASTLEMIKE
2008-08-24, 05:44 AM
Emphasis mine:

I mentioned it in my opening post :) Basically, the player doesn't want to mess with too many homebrewed or prestige classes. Yes, changing a bit of the features (like replacing Remove Disease with Bonus Feats) is fine. Adding a well-defined existing feature (like Crusader Maneuvers) is fine. But if he needs Paladin 5/PrC1 5/PrC2 10, he doesn't see it has a Paladin anymore. I've talked to him a bit about it. So far he has rejected the idea of going Cleric (plus, in this game, I give clerics only Light armor proficiency, light shield proficiency, and no Divine Power. However, they do get 6 skillpoints a level and a bigger skill list). He appears to be leaning towards getting ToB Maneuver progressions, given the choice between getting Hellrever for free or having the Crusader maneuver progression (and recovery method). He does like the Hellreaver, but I think he likes Maneuvers better. The only question is, will it overpower the Paladin or not? I tend to think this just puts it on par with the Crusader or perhaps just a tad more powerful.

BTW, where are you guys getting the idea that this campaign starts at level 9? It starts at level 16, where caster should OMG dominate. There's going to be a Batman in the group one of my other friends called it already. I'm not sure what else will be played though. The casters will not be getting any extra goodies (and they understand that because they know that Wizards don't NEED the help)

Hmm...having a Dragon mount is...interesting, but would it be a tad too powerful? I'll need to look at the rules of getting a Large dragon for him to ride.

Consider treating the Paladin who gets the "Call" as a +1 Template and apply the class specials to another class like Warblade -16 as a human.

Gestalt lite: Paladin-16//Warblade-16 if no one else is gestalting.

Here in the original post:


One of my players loves Paladins...absolutely adores the idea of one. Unfortunately, we may also be starting a moderate to high level campaign soon where the players must invade the 9 Hells. Single classed Paladin surviving in Hell? Not so much. I'm thinking of letting him have a few goodies to help offset the Paladin's crappiness. Tell me what you think.

Albonor
2008-08-24, 08:08 AM
A mount for a level 16 paladin? A very young RADIANT DRAGON (Draconimicon)! Probably fits the fluff of a group invading hell...and it IS level 16, he won't be more powerful than the casters...

If he really wants to keep pally, I still think he gains more with the Prestige paladin (mainly: better spells ( at lelvel 16 he could put out a righteous might: quite cool as paladins in hell can go!)) and try to use the Ordained Champion variant for the smites: it uses turn undead attemps. Better than bringing up "per encounter" powers or the lousy 4 times a day he will be able to but out at level 16...

silvermesh
2008-08-24, 11:25 AM
What seperates the paladin from the cleric? incorruptibility. The mount is only in the class because it always has been. complete immunity to fear. this ability seems to be downplayed quite a bit. sure the cleric has a good will save, but there are challenges that can surpass any save. The paladin is always unwavering, and I guarantee in a long campaign in the lower planes there will be many fear saves. does your cleric measure up or does he quiver and flee? It may seem a small matter, but this one ability defines so much of why someone would want to be a paladin. complete and utter fearlessness. another class may claim to be fearless, but only a paladin can truly stand up and prove it without ever failing. regardless of circumstance.

immunity to disease. sure the cleric can cure disease, so why does he need to be immune? because it's cooler to say "you can't even effect me with that." than "i'll heal it later".

the cleric may be a better spellcaster than the paladin. he may even be a better fighter than the paladin. these things do not define who the paladin is. the cleric can never be as unwavering in the face of danger as a paladin. This sort of passion can only truly be understood by those of us who are obsessed with paladinhood ;)

That said, the paladin is a very solid class. throwing a bunch of cheese on a wizard or cleric and proving how brokenly overpowered this combo or that is does not make other classes underpowered. 3e is as it always has been a game where the better player truly will have a better built character. this is regardless of class. you don't need to pick the one thats easy to exploit to play well and succeed.

I've played an aasimar paladin in a similar campaign and never thought twice about the level i lost to LA. once you are high enough level that you can survive in the lower planes, one little level doesn't make that signifigant of a difference.

Akimbo
2008-08-24, 11:29 AM
Give me a day or so and I'll build a Paladin based on full attacking rather than charging...it's a weird build though, and involves a significant amoung of bard.

What level/level range?


At the words "Blasphemy optimization", I'm going to have to call munchkinry or, at least, "not fun". Because the game ceases to be fun when everything you oppose instantly dies with no save or defense. Every swarm o' low-level mooks, maybe, but when you start Blaspheming guys five levels above you to death...

You have no idea the Munchkinnery.

Real Blashphemy optimization looks something like:

Beguiler 1/Duskblade 1/Warlock 1/Savage Bard 1/Wizard 1/Ur Priest 2/Nar Demonbinder 1/Mystic Theurge 2/Sublime Chord 1/Mystic Theurge 6/Sublime Chord 3.

Or if you are starting past level 10 you might want to build it with two other classes in place of Mystic Theurge.

So you get a CL with no Practiced Spellcaster and no items at level 11 of 5 for Arcane and for Ur-Priest 18, and that's with casting as a level 3 Demonbinder, and 4 Ur-Priest, and 1 Sublime Chord. (So that's fourth level spells in two classes and 6th level spells in DemonBinder).

You get access to Blasphemy one level later then a straight Cleric but you are casting as a Demonbinder 3/Ur-Priest 8/Sublime Chord 5 at level 15. And taking Practiced Spellcaster twice you can get CL of 18 Arcane and thus 71 Ur-Priest. Oh and the reason Nar Demonbinder is in there, besides to give you 6th level spells at level 10, is because now you can prepare nothing but Blahphemy with you Ur-Priest slots, and then spontaneously convert them to any Alignment Word spell you want.

I mean, you are barely passable at most levels leading up to 14, but at 14 you are a God.

I mean, sure you can play a Straight Cleric and optimize it, but whatever, that's no fun.

Akimbo
2008-08-24, 11:34 AM
What seperates the paladin from the cleric? incorruptibility. The mount is only in the class because it always has been. complete immunity to fear. this ability seems to be downplayed quite a bit. sure the cleric has a good will save, but there are challenges that can surpass any save. The paladin is always unwavering, and I guarantee in a long campaign in the lower planes there will be many fear saves. does your cleric measure up or does he quiver and flee? It may seem a small matter, but this one ability defines so much of why someone would want to be a paladin. complete and utter fearlessness. another class may claim to be fearless, but only a paladin can truly stand up and prove it without ever failing. regardless of circumstance.

immunity to disease. sure the cleric can cure disease, so why does he need to be immune? because it's cooler to say "you can't even effect me with that." than "i'll heal it later".

Funny cause I can build a level 8 Cleric that has both those absolute immunities, along with full spellcasting some Proficiencies, and a few other abilities made of awesome.

Frosty
2008-08-24, 01:32 PM
Consider treating the Paladin who gets the "Call" as a +1 Template and apply the class specials to another class like Warblade -16 as a human.

Gestalt lite: Paladin-16//Warblade-16 if no one else is gestalting.

Here in the original post:

I'm not sure what you're saying by this. You want him to go the gestalt option as well?


Ordained Champion variant for the smites: it uses turn undead attemps. Better than bringing up "per encounter" powers or the lousy 4 times a day he will be able to but out at level 16...

Os Ordained Champion from C. Divine or C. Champion? I remember one of them gives Mettle.

Eldariel
2008-08-24, 01:57 PM
Ordained Champion is from Complete Champion. The one you're probably thinking of is Pious Templar.

CASTLEMIKE
2008-08-24, 02:04 PM
I'm not sure what you're saying by this. You want him to go the gestalt option as well?



Os Ordained Champion from C. Divine or C. Champion? I remember one of them gives Mettle.

No neither of you wants to make a lot of homebrew changes. One of the options was to consider templates.

I know Paladin is a class but I prefer it as a +1 LA Template usable by all interested LG PCs.

If you aren't interested in making the Paladin class a template and the Paladin PC is the class that needs a power up for the game consider giving him the option of going Paladin//Warblade Gestalt without PRCs which is a modest gestalt power up since he likes martial adept manuevers.

lord_khaine
2008-08-24, 03:15 PM
frosty, i would suggest letting him replace the paladins spellcasting with the crusader maneuvers, that should give him a decent power boost, without loosing the paladin part of the char he wants to create.

if you also let him use leadership to get a dragon mount, then i actualy think he would be able to keep up with the casters of the party.

Chronicled
2008-08-24, 08:41 PM
If your player went Paladin 5/Hellreaver 10/Paladin 5, would he still consider it a Pally?

Vonriel
2008-08-25, 03:52 AM
; changing all Paladin abilities to work off Wisdom instead of Charisma (optional);

A point of interest about the side conversation of Frosty's worry about his player, there's a feat (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Serenity,all) printed in Dragon that does just this, which makes me wonder why there's not an alternate class feature that does this somewhere. Anyway, back to the thread about optimizing and playing a build that is decidedly not a paladin, sorry for interrupting it to comment on the topic the OP brought up.

Koalita
2008-08-25, 07:04 AM
IMHO, allowing smiting /encounter, plus some extra feats (allow some flaws, or just grant him some extra feats) and/or some maneuvers should make him more than capable unless you are playing with very optimized characters. Even then, it should be enough to give him a good mount and he should be set. Not overpowered like an optimized cleric, but still a good asset. Or give him some boost to abilities, so his MAD isnt so bad :)

Frosty
2008-08-25, 11:08 AM
If your player went Paladin 5/Hellreaver 10/Paladin 5, would he still consider it a Pally?

He would. He *likes* the Hellreaver class. In fact, I had offered to let him gestalt that with Paladin.

Chronicled
2008-08-25, 12:45 PM
He would. He *likes* the Hellreaver class. In fact, I had offered to let him gestalt that with Paladin.

After taking a look at both classes, I think the Hellreaver//Paladin gestalt would sit fine. There's so much overlap between the two that it shouldn't be problematic at all--he's just getting Paladin spells and mount progression (and smites/remove diseases, whoo boy). If it looks like it might be too much (or people complain, or w/e), make it cost him a feat to continue the Paladin progression during his Hellreaver levels.

Frosty
2008-08-25, 02:24 PM
If it looks like it might be too much (or people complain, or w/e), make it cost him a feat to continue the Paladin progression during his Hellreaver levels.

I will smack anyone whoever complains if they think getting mount progression, a smattering of spells, and Remove Disease x/week is overpowered.

Tokiko Mima
2008-08-25, 02:30 PM
I will smack anyone whoever complains if they think getting mount progression, a smattering of spells, and Remove Disease x/week is overpowered.

The first two I was ok with, but remove disease 1/week? I dunno Frosty.. letting a paladin run around curing the common cold all willy-nilly? That's so broken it's not funny.

:tongue:

*ducks*

Frosty
2008-08-25, 02:34 PM
The first two I was ok with, but remove disease 1/week? I dunno Frosty.. letting a paladin run around curing the common cold all willy-nilly? That's so broken it's not funny.

:tongue:

*ducks*

*Orders a CW Samurai and a Monk to subdue Tokiko Mima* :smallamused:

Chronicled
2008-08-25, 03:16 PM
*Orders a CW Samurai and a Monk to subdue Tokiko Mima* :smallamused:

It just figures that you'd use two of the most overpowered base classes to do that. I mean, between the Samurai's UMD and the Monk's ability to talk to squirrels, Tokiko Mima doesn't stand a chance!

Frosty
2008-08-25, 03:18 PM
She can run, but the Monk's speed makes him UBEEEERRR!

Chronicled
2008-08-25, 03:23 PM
She can run, but the Monk's speed makes him UBEEEERRR!

She can hide, but the Monk's Eversmoking Bottle lets him... hide too!

Tokiko Mima
2008-08-25, 03:27 PM
The Soulknives will protect me! They owe me a favor! Fear their slightly greater WBL and significantly weaker class feature weapons! :smallwink:

Frosty
2008-08-25, 03:43 PM
The Soulknives will protect me! They owe me a favor! Fear their slightly greater WBL and significantly weaker class feature weapons! :smallwink:

Or fear the Samurai/Soulknife Gestalt! Tremble at the manifested Soul-tana!

Tokiko Mima
2008-08-25, 04:15 PM
Or fear the Samurai/Soulknife Gestalt! Tremble at the manifested Soul-tana!

FROSTY, WHAT HAVE YOU DONE!?!? You've become death, the destroyer of worlds... when will this nightmarish gestalt end??? It can dual weild a set of subpar weapons with such talentless grace it rivals even a Monk's ability to fire off a flurry of misses! It's named after a rockstar and a band it couldn't hope to deal damage to even if they were wrapped up in a wet paper sack! It doesn't even get an AC bonus! Oh, the humanity!!

:smallbiggrin:

Frosty
2008-08-30, 10:58 PM
Would you agree that a similar offering can be done with the Knight class? I feel that Knight and Crusader maneuver progression would actually synergize very well. With the Bulwark of Defense, the Knight won't actually *need* Thicket of Blades and is free to use another stance!

CASTLEMIKE
2008-08-31, 12:41 AM
Would you agree that a similar offering can be done with the Knight class? I feel that Knight and Crusader maneuver progression would actually synergize very well. With the Bulwark of Defense, the Knight won't actually *need* Thicket of Blades and is free to use another stance!

Should be fine Gestalting two fighter classes D12, 4 SPs, 2 Good Saves (F&W) instead of 1. Crusader adds a lot more to Knight than Knight does to Crusader.

Does he still get a Dragon Mount?

Can a Devil be helpless? (The Knight's Code)

Frosty
2008-08-31, 11:54 AM
He'd take Leadership to get a cool mount I guess. And devils aren't really people, per se...so it should be ok.

ashmanonar
2008-08-31, 01:02 PM
Well, they are made mostly of paper...

I think that in this one case, the old adage actually makes sense.