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ZekeArgo
2008-08-23, 05:24 PM
Okay, been thinking on this for a bit, and I've got some good ideas already, but I could use some suggestions fleshing the rest out.

So heres the game I just joined: Team Arena game, starts as parties of 4 with 6000 xp to divide among the members as you see fit, with no one member with more than 3000xp. All members are built using 32 point buy, and 5000 gp to purchase the entire parties equipment with.

Availible books are:

Players Handbook I & II, Dungeon Masters Guide I & II, Complete Adventurer, Complete Arcane, Complete Divine, Complete Mage, Complete Scoundrel, Complete Warrior, Races of Destiny, Races of the Dragon, Races of Stone, Races of the Wild, Magic Item Compendium, Spell Compendium, Monster Manual I-V, Tome of Battle, *Unearthed Arcana

* All choices from Unearthed Arcana are subject to review. That being said, it is likely that they will be allowed.

Just starting on character creation, and have two characters solidly in my mind, the other two not so much.

1st: Dragonborn Grey Elf Wizard(Conjurer). Considering 3000xp here for 2nd level spells, and going with the Abrubt Jaunt replacement ability from PHB2 along with the focused specialist option from Complete Mage, banning Enchantment, Evocation, and Necromancy.

2nd: Whisper Gnome Swordsage. Might have to put the 3000xp here to get him 3rd level for Weapon Finesse, but would prefer building him with 1000xp to start. Considering a fighter dip for finesse at level 2. Thinking Setting Sun focused with Shadow Hand secondary with a splash of desert wind and tigers claw.

3rd: Divine Caster, 1000xp. More than likely a druid but no definate plans yet

4th: Open, 1000xp. More than likely another full caster, but can't decide if I want to go with a frontline Cleric-zilla, a crusader or some other thing I'm not thinking of to round everything out.

So, any suggestions that could be thrown my way for classes and builds would be greatly appreciated.

Eldariel
2008-08-23, 05:39 PM
I'd probably use a level 2 Wolf-totem Barbarian in an arena like that. Most likely an Orc. Since there's the danger of a bright arena, a Dragonborn Orc. With Heart-aspect (immune to sleep and all that mumbo-jumbo, and Hold Person by the virtue of being an Orc), some Dex (13-14 for Combat Reflexes) and your generic tanking. Whirling Frenzy, probably. Enlarge that up and go to town. Sure, ToB classes are more versatile, but in pure numbers, Barbarian wins out.

Although, since you've taken 2 levels, that's pretty much all the Barb-levels you need and you can move on to ToB classes next level (or even give it 3 levels - but really, your casters get the most mileage out of the 3rd level, so give 'em that for second level spells).


Swordsage skill monkey isn't a bad idea, although if you do expect traps, a mix of Martial Rogue and Swordsage may be better. I hope you use Fractional BAB? 'cause else the arena sucks. Whisper Gnome isn't a bad choice - on these levels, the Silence can be a killer.

The Cleric could be a Crusader/Cleric heading for Ruby Knight Vindicator if you are to level up. And I feel the Conjurer is pretty good as is - just having Abrupt Jaunt is win. Heck, a party of 4 Focused Conjurers would probably kick royal ass.

ZekeArgo
2008-08-23, 05:48 PM
I'd probably use a level 2 Wolf-totem Barbarian in an arena like that. Most likely an Orc. Since there's the danger of a bright arena, a Dragonborn Orc. With Heart-aspect (immune to sleep and all that mumbo-jumbo, and Hold Person by the virtue of being an Orc), some Dex (13-14 for Combat Reflexes) and your generic tanking. Whirling Frenzy, probably. Enlarge that up and go to town. Sure, ToB classes are more versatile, but in pure numbers, Barbarian wins out. Although, since you've taken 2 levels, that's pretty much all the Barb-levels you need and you can move on to ToB classes next level (or even give it 3 levels - but really, your casters get the most mileage out of the 3rd level, so give 'em that for second level spells).

Heh, forgot to mention that Whirling Frenzy is one of the only options not allowed, along with the UA spontaneous divine casting and any races above LA +0. Still, was considering something along the same lines, getting that barbarian charging for PAing and going right into Warblade for Stone Dragon and White Raven.


Swordsage skill monkey isn't a bad idea, although if you do expect traps, a mix of Martial Rogue and Swordsage may be better. I hope you use Fractional BAB? 'cause else the arena sucks. Whisper Gnome isn't a bad choice - on these levels, the Silence can be a killer.

Yeah, fractional BaB is a must, which I actually wasn't thinking of when I was coming up with my preliminary builds. Whisper gnome rocks for Setting Sun as well, with the full movement speed while still being able to use all of those maneuvers vs an opponent larger than yourself.


The Cleric could be a Crusader/Cleric heading for Ruby Knight Vindicator if you are to level up. And I feel the Conjurer is pretty good as is - just having Abrupt Jaunt is win. Heck, a party of 4 Focused Conjurers would probably kick royal ass.

Ha, I was tempted. Being able to fire off 4 Lesser Orbs of acid a round for 3 rounds, with one of them with 4 2nd level slots on top of that... Kinda tempting just to give it a try to tell the truth.

Eldariel
2008-08-23, 05:52 PM
More like, hitting opponent's party with 4 Save or Dies per turn. Every turn. Targeting Will or Fort (and mean Ref-spells in Grease and Web). All of them DC Lot. Heck, you could be boosting your Int with your level 2 slots for real mean DCs.

Anyways, Wolf-Totem Barbarian is really good - with huge Strength and free Improved Trip on level 2, he just rips things up. He can even take on higher level characters, since Trip is a simple Strength-check - BAB isn't factored in. With 18 Str, he'll have 22 base, 26 in Rage and 30 with pump. That's +10. Add +4 from Improved Trip and +4 from Enlarge Person (+2 Str) and we're looking at +19 Trip-checks. And with Combat Reflexes, he can do those a lot. Defensive Casting isn't at all trivial on those levels. One level of Unarmed Swordsage/Monk to threaten adjacent.

Emperor Tippy
2008-08-23, 06:07 PM
Too bad Dungeoscape is out or I would recommend a Factotum. How does your DM feel about the swordsage caster adaption? :smallwink:

Are flaws allowed?

Hal
2008-08-23, 06:13 PM
How far is the game going?

I still think a Duskblade is a good arena combatant, especially since he'll shine during the lower levels. Give him Arcane Strike, and you can be absolutely certain that if it has to be dead, he can make it happen.

Eldariel
2008-08-23, 06:38 PM
If that were possible, Duskblade would be good. As things stand though, nobody is picking Arcane Strike before level 6 and likely not before level 9 (pretty much only Battle Sorcerer qualifies on level 6) - Arcane Strike requires +4 BAB and 3rd level Arcane spells. I'd rather have a Barbarian than a Duskblade due to the higher durability and better crowd control (not to mention, comparable damage, bonus feats and less MAD).

Jack_Simth
2008-08-23, 06:46 PM
More like, hitting opponent's party with 4 Save or Dies per turn. Every turn. Targeting Will or Fort (and mean Ref-spells in Grease and Web). All of them DC Lot. Heck, you could be boosting your Int with your level 2 slots for real mean DCs.
Save or Lose / Save or Suck - not Save or Die.

You've got 3rd level characters at the most - you can have:
2 3rd level characters and 2 1st level characters
1 3rd level character and 3 2nd level characters
... and unless you want to dilute power, that's about it - you could, for instance, have four 2nd level characters that are all partway to 3rd, rather than having one third level character and 3 2nd level characters.

As for a party of four Wizards? It could work very, very well.
2 3rd level Conjourers, two fist level Enchanters.
The 3rd level Conjurers prepare Web (Reflex save or be stuck in place), Glitterdust (Will save or be Blinded), and Cloud of Bewilderment (Spell Compenduim - think Stinking Cloud with a smaller area as a 2nd level spell - fort save or be Nauseated). No SR on any of them, not that it matters at this level. Grease and Mage armor too, of course.
The 1st level enchanters prepare multiple copies of Sleep, but they do a trick: They're humans who take Precocious Apprentice (Complete Arcane, Sidebar) to gain a 2nd level spell (Frost Breath, Spell Compendium, just because it's a Cold spell), and a direct-damage Reserve feat to run off of it (Winter's Blast, Complete Mage; Can also use an Acid spell and Acidic Splatter or a Fire spell and Fiery Burst - mixing it up a bit is probably a good idea). The two third level Wizards zap away with the save or suck spells, while the two first level wizards zap away with Sleep. Once the opponents are reasonably incapacitated, switch over to CdG (for the Sleeping ones) or repeated applications of direct-damage reserve feats.

If Flaws are permitted, get both Spell Focus and Greater Spell Focus for the school the caster is using.

JeminiZero
2008-08-23, 09:17 PM
I'm surprised no one has suggested warlock yet, and at level 2, he gets 2 lesser invocs.

At such low levels, Unlimited Shatter can wreak havoc against enemies with only unenchanted gear. Other invoc might be put to spiderclimb, so he can cling to the ceiling and blast away.

Talic
2008-08-23, 09:51 PM
Human Druid. Elemental companion variant. 3000 xp.

Feats: Ashborn, Augment Summoning, Spell Focus: Conjuration.

Spell: Races of the Wild: Summon Dire Hawk.

Now, you have a 60 round CR 3 creature that you summon that gets +5 to hit, +2 to damage, and +2 hp/hd.

Alternately, you can use summon nature's ally 3 off of scrolls for 1d4+1 Small vipers. Each will have a DC 12 fort save poison or 1d6 initial and secondary con damage. Each will last for 6 rounds. 2 castings = 7 snakes. Clog everything up with em.

Chronos
2008-08-23, 11:07 PM
(immune to sleep and all that mumbo-jumbo, and Hold Person by the virtue of being an Orc)How are orcs immune to Hold Person?



The 1st level enchanters prepare multiple copies of SleepI've never quite understood why Sleep is the poster-child for level 1 win-button. The big problem with it is that it takes a full round to cast, which means that it's actually realistically possible to disrupt it. Plus, of course, one of the standard races is completely immune to it. Color Spray, meanwhile, takes only a standard action to cast, affects about as many targets, offers the same saving throw, is equally devastating if the targets fail, can affect more HD, and none of the standard races are immune to it. The only drawback is that you have to get closer.

Emperor Tippy
2008-08-23, 11:12 PM
I've never quite understood why Sleep is the poster-child for level 1 win-button. The big problem with it is that it takes a full round to cast, which means that it's actually realistically possible to disrupt it. Plus, of course, one of the standard races is completely immune to it. Color Spray, meanwhile, takes only a standard action to cast, affects about as many targets, offers the same saving throw, is equally devastating if the targets fail, can affect more HD, and none of the standard races are immune to it. The only drawback is that you have to get closer.

It's really the range. With a range at level 1 of 110 feet it really can't be disrupted (no one can reach you within a round).

BobVosh
2008-08-24, 12:16 AM
Am I the only one who wants to see 3 lvl 1 Fighter/Barbarian mounter combat humans with a lvl 3 wizard or cleric backing them up?

Level 1 Human Barbarian-Take Mounted Combat and Ride-by-Attack
Level 2 - Fighter- Take Spirited Charge

Level 3 Cleric / Wizard- For heals and buffs.

Each Barbarian/Fighter would have 18+Con modx2 hp, enough gold to buy mounts/armor. Rage for some extra loving, and extra movement if they get tossed from the horse.

ZekeArgo
2008-08-24, 12:43 AM
More edits: Yes flaws are allowed, and in all honesty I'm being drawn to a hybrid of an all caster party. Possibly going Barbarian Charger, ToB Class, Focused Conjurer and a Focused Enchanter.

Actually for the Conjurer I had already planned on the feat progression:

Flaw: Vulnerable
Flaw: Innatentive
Free: Spell Focus(Conjuration)
Free: Greater Spell Focus(Conjuration)
01st: Cloudy Conjuration
WIZ1: Improved Initiative(Fighter Bonus sub ability)
03rd: ??

mabriss lethe
2008-08-24, 01:50 AM
would it be wrong to unleash a party of fey heritage warlocks on this arena?

None of this is really serious btw, just me figuring out how to make this party work in an arena situation


"The Boll Brothers"

make it one lvl3 and 3 lvl2's All of them take fey heritage and fey skin

lvl 3 gets baleful utterance and eldritch spear. let the others choose between stuff like earthen grasp, entropic warding, summon swarm, spiderclimb, or whatever tickles your tactical fancy. The best bet is one offensive and one defensive invocation.

kit them all out with decent armor, longspears and crossbows just in case someone hits you with a silence effect. Any leftover gp, invest in attack dogs and defensive/restorative magic items.

My starting point would be that each brother is equiped with two potions of cure light wounds and one other 1st or 2nd level potion of choice. Each would also be equipped with 2 1st level scrolls of choice (All of them having maxed out UMD.) pick up a level 1 wand of something useful and get ready to throw down.


when the whistle blows, the warlock with e.spear begins to pepper the opponents as soon as they get into range, targeting casters first. the remaining brothers use this opportunity to use any buff scrolls or potions they might need. any brothers with buff invocations go ahead and use them. Once the opponents get within the range for other invocations, start nailing them with earthen grasps,summoned swarms, or conventional EBs. At this point the E.spear warlock switches to Baleful utterance, targetting the most inconvenient equipment to lose, again focusing on any surviving casters to keep them out of the fight until they can be picked off by one of the other brothers. Once they close into melee range, sic the dogs on them, stab them with the long spears and retreat/regroup. Start it all over again.

Eldariel
2008-08-24, 02:03 AM
How are orcs immune to Hold Person?

Wow, my bad, I always lived in the understand that they were Monstrous Humanoids.


I've never quite understood why Sleep is the poster-child for level 1 win-button. The big problem with it is that it takes a full round to cast, which means that it's actually realistically possible to disrupt it. Plus, of course, one of the standard races is completely immune to it. Color Spray, meanwhile, takes only a standard action to cast, affects about as many targets, offers the same saving throw, is equally devastating if the targets fail, can affect more HD, and none of the standard races are immune to it. The only drawback is that you have to get closer.

Color Spray is great, of course, but short on range. Best used in conjuction.


If I were making a 4-Wizard party, I'd make them all at least Specialist: Conjurers just for Abrupt Jaunt (with probably one Focused Specialist). Then just use the Specialist-slots for all the Conjuration-spells and normal slots for everything else. I'd probably throw Eschew Materials into the mix, since this kind of a level is very inviting for Shatter-monkeys.

Also, they don't necessarily need to be Dragonborn. We're still talking about low levels, so high AC is a fine substitute for high HP, so the Dex bonus may actually be preferable.

Jack_Simth
2008-08-24, 10:26 AM
I've never quite understood why Sleep is the poster-child for level 1 win-button. The big problem with it is that it takes a full round to cast, which means that it's actually realistically possible to disrupt it. Plus, of course, one of the standard races is completely immune to it. Color Spray, meanwhile, takes only a standard action to cast, affects about as many targets, offers the same saving throw, is equally devastating if the targets fail, can affect more HD, and none of the standard races are immune to it. The only drawback is that you have to get closer.
There's a method around the 1-round casting time of Sleep - you can make it a Full-Round action by way of Alacritous Cogitation in Complete Mage. Seriously. The errata made it so that it will no longer let you cast a 12 hour spell as a full-round action, but it does still change 1-round casting times to full round casting times. It just takes an extra feat, and you can only do that trick once a day (per character).

Chronos
2008-08-24, 01:41 PM
It's really the range. With a range at level 1 of 110 feet it really can't be disrupted (no one can reach you within a round).There's still arrows. 110 feet is still the first range increment for a heavy crossbow or composite longbow, and only a -2 for anything else. Alternately, if they recognize what spell you're casting (both a Spellcraft check and a verbal warning are free actions for the enemy's casters), they could just run away from you while you're casting, and make you waste the spell: Anything with a speed of 30 feet can get completely out of range in one round, and to even catch things with 20 foot speed, you'd need to start out within 30 feet (which puts you back into melee range).

Back to the wiz3/wiz3/wiz1/wiz1 party, I see no reason not to make them all focused specialists, since they're each only going to be using a single school, anyway. Plus, apparently, Precocious Apprentice interacts interestingly with focused specialist. And even if the OP doesn't decide to go with four wizards, it's something to take into consideration, because that might be what his opponent pulls against him.

Ananvil
2008-09-17, 01:37 PM
Just curious, as the DM of the game being discussed... how goes the character creation?:smalltongue:

Also, I invite anyone interested to join. The link is below.

http://rpol.net/game.cgi?gi=31337&date=1221675177