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Jayngfet
2008-08-23, 07:36 PM
Since we've got a celbite succubus paladins statted out and demon worshipers(drow) converting en masse. Considering that there are infinite demons spread out across seperate universes, just how often will a good demon pop up? And I don't mean paladin good I mean rogue who still steals good.

Krimm_Blackleaf
2008-08-23, 07:45 PM
Standard D&D cosmology says that the Abyss is (supposedly)infinite. This means an infinite amount of demons, and thus any fraction of that infinity will still be infinity.
That being said, still very very very very very very very rarely will you find a demon that won't want to make you less happy than you were before meeting it.

Collin152
2008-08-23, 07:49 PM
Standard D&D cosmology says that the Abyss is (supposedly)infinite. This means an infinite amount of demons, and thus any fraction of that infinity will still be infinity.
That being said, still very very very very very very very rarely will you find a demon that won't want to make you less happy than you were before meeting it.

Ye, the actual number is infinite.
But the fraction is still a rational number.

That's what he wants.

Krimm_Blackleaf
2008-08-23, 07:51 PM
Ye, the actual number is infinite.
But the fraction is still a rational number.

That's what he wants.

In that case it's up to either the DM or just 0.001d2% at any given time. At least in my opinion.

SadisticFishing
2008-08-23, 08:13 PM
Well, the Abyss is infinite, and has infinite demons in it, but demons are Chaotic Evil.

That Succubus wasn't 100% a demon anymore after converting. So there aren't infinite.

I'd say... 3?

I don't know, this question seems arbitrary. How many as DM do you want there to be? How many as a player do you need there to be? If as a player you plan on finding one, you will not. It's not possible, unless your DM really wants you to.

Stupendous_Man
2008-08-23, 08:21 PM
Well, the Abyss is infinite, and has infinite demons in it, but demons are Chaotic Evil.

That Succubus wasn't 100% a demon anymore after converting. So there aren't infinite.

I'd say... 3?

I don't know, this question seems arbitrary. How many as DM do you want there to be? How many as a player do you need there to be? If as a player you plan on finding one, you will not. It's not possible, unless your DM really wants you to.

Bah, the answer is 42!

Collin152
2008-08-23, 08:23 PM
It's directally preportional to the number of Helms of Opposite Alignment in the universe.

puppyavenger
2008-08-23, 08:25 PM
It's directally preportional to the number of Helms of Opposite Alignment in the universe.

ah but helm of opposite alignment can be used infinite times, so it can be any number compared to them. and how wasn't that demon a demon after becoming a palidan?

fractic
2008-08-23, 08:26 PM
ah but helm of opposite alignment can be used infinite times, so it can be any number compared to them. and how wasn't that demon a demon after becoming a palidan?

Using it takes time so unless you have an infinite amount of time it will only have been used a finite number of times.

DraPrime
2008-08-23, 08:27 PM
Technically it's impossible for there to be a good demon. A demon is an incarnation of chaos and evil. It is fundamentally just that, chaotic evil. It is part of it's inherent nature. Just like it is hydrogen's nature to burn, it's a demon's nature to be chaotic and evil. It's simply impossible for it to happen (assuming that the DnD world works in a consistent way without any foolish DMs interfering), and if it did then wouldn't the demon stop being a demon? Chaos and evil are such fundamental parts of a demon that if it stopped being any one of those it wouldn't be a demon. I'm not sure exactly what it would be. "Some kind of outsider" is the best I can come up with right now.

Collin152
2008-08-23, 08:27 PM
ah but helm of opposite alignment can be used infinite times, so it can be any number compared to them.

Yes, but it stands to reason that the more there are, the larger the chance it would be used on a Demon.

puppyavenger
2008-08-23, 08:28 PM
Using it takes time so unless you have an infinite amount of time it will only have been used a finite number of times.

ah but as the Abyss is infinite, presumable there would be at least one plane where time was infinite, and several others where it goes backwards, sideways, inwards, or towards the idealip. of legitimate leadership

Proven_Paradox
2008-08-23, 08:35 PM
It depends entirely on your own view of the cosmology, really. Anywhere one might have fallen celestials, I think you should be able to find risen demons. Both can make for interesting characters. As for chances? I think the fraction Krimm gave isn't far off. Maybe even lower. It should be rare, whatever it is. Of course, the same might be said for drow, and the stereotype holds that it really isn't.

Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll
2008-08-23, 08:41 PM
I was about too say.

Unfallen Angels.

Cilvyn
2008-08-23, 08:42 PM
I would say a good demon = an angel..

FMArthur
2008-08-23, 08:47 PM
I suppose it depends on what % of always [alignment] are deviants. The MM says it's either unique or extremely rare, but are there any rules somewhere else for it? It might be a random-generation thing done with a d% in some book, somewhere. I kind of doubt it.

To me, 1/1000 sounds like a good number. Divide that by a hundred (for 1/100000) for such creatures who are able to survive amongst or decieve their fellow demons. :smallconfused:

Shazzbaa
2008-08-23, 08:48 PM
It's simply impossible for it to happen (assuming that the DnD world works in a consistent way without any foolish DMs interfering), and if it did then wouldn't the demon stop being a demon? Chaos and evil are such fundamental parts of a demon that if it stopped being any one of those it wouldn't be a demon. I'm not sure exactly what it would be. "Some kind of outsider" is the best I can come up with right now.

Yeah, in a campaign I'm in now, our cleric used a spell that forced a pit fiend to become Good on a fail save.... and he's currently forcing it to assist us before he'll atone the poor thing. My DM figured that a Good devil probably changes back into an angel, so he ruled that it is now, for all intents and purposes, a solar.
....However, we're pretty much also at a loss as to what would happen to a demon. We pondered that perhaps they became creatures of pure chaos or pure chaos and good, rather than pure chaos and evil, and I can't quite recall what that monster is.

I think by the D&D mythos as written, Good demons are impossible. However, it isn't hard to tweak the fluff and justify them, so overall it's up to the DM.

OOoooooof course, I'm still thinking in terms of 3.5, so that's probably totally different in 4e.

Agrippa
2008-08-23, 09:07 PM
I remember an unofficial Dicefreaks template called Penitent Fiend. Basically it changes said fiend's alignment and alignment subtype to Good, replaces all Evil spells, spell-like abillities and supernatural powers with equivalent Good powers, replaces telepathy with tounges at will, replaces all harmful Necromancy spells with (Healing) spells (except perhaps spells like Ray of Enfeeblement and Waves of Fatigue) and replaces the Demon, Daemon or Devil subtype (Tanar'i, Yuogloth and Baa'tzu subtypes if you prefer) with the Angel subtype. Otherwise it looks pretty much the same as any non-Penitent Fiend and has the same stats.

monty
2008-08-23, 09:08 PM
....However, we're pretty much also at a loss as to what would happen to a demon. We pondered that perhaps they became creatures of pure chaos or pure chaos and good, rather than pure chaos and evil, and I can't quite recall what that monster is.

Maybe an Eladrin? BoED describes them as basically the chaotic counterparts of the archons.

Anyway, let's assume that the probability of a demon being non-evil is some non-zero value. It can be the multiplicative inverse of Graham's number for all I care, as long as it's greater than zero. If the number of demons is infinite, then the number of non-evil demons must also be infinite.

If, on the other hand, the probability is exactly zero, then we get into weird possibilities.

AslanCross
2008-08-23, 11:04 PM
OOoooooof course, I'm still thinking in terms of 3.5, so that's probably totally different in 4e.

4E Demons are corrupted elemental creatures and are not considered "Immortals" like devils or angels. They're basically pieces of the Abyss (which itself is corrupted elemental force) given sentience. According to the 4E Monster Manual, they don't live very long and get recycled back into the maelstrom. The demon lords are corrupt Primordials, so they are immortal. The rank-and-file aren't.

Given that, I guess demons could be "purified," if only for a short time before they cease to exist.

Shazzbaa
2008-08-23, 11:34 PM
Eladrin! Yes, that was what they decided; thanks.

And yeah, I've read most of the 4e mythos, I just wasn't quite sure how a "purified" demon would begin to work under their version of the abyss. ^^;

Frosty
2008-08-23, 11:43 PM
itmust be very confusing for a redeemed Succubus paladin. Imagine radiating Goodness, Evilness, Chaoticness, AND Lawfulness all at once.

Tsotha-lanti
2008-08-24, 01:08 AM
Good and non-evil demons and devils were canon in AD&D Planescape, which is still the best freaking version of the D&D cosmology. There was a "redeemed" osyluth in Celestia, just like there was a fallen evil angel running a city in Baator. (Pretty sure these two were the only to creatures like this mentioned in the fiend supplement, mind you. So yes, they're rare, but they're so rare they'll also be famous.)

jcsw
2008-08-24, 04:13 AM
itmust be very confusing for a redeemed Succubus paladin. Imagine radiating Goodness, Evilness, Chaoticness, AND Lawfulness all at once.

IIRC According to fiendish codex II the pact primordial has an overwhelming lawful, good, and evil aura, enough to make anyone detecting it's alignment confused.... I wonder if something similar would happen to the Succubus...

AslanCross
2008-08-24, 04:23 AM
Eladrin! Yes, that was what they decided; thanks.

And yeah, I've read most of the 4e mythos, I just wasn't quite sure how a "purified" demon would begin to work under their version of the abyss. ^^;

I'm not so sure either. >_o Maybe they just dissolve when they become good. o_o

I have a 3.0 adventure (Lord of the Iron Fortress) that has a Fallen Trumpet Archon. He's still an archon (and can be persuaded to turn back if the players really wanted to), but for the most part he's simply an archon with his alignment-specific spells and abilities "reskinned" to work for evil and against good instead.

The only thing here is that I tend to believe it's easier for the good outsiders to fall than for the evil outsiders to be redeemed. But that's just me.

Mastikator
2008-08-24, 04:28 AM
I would say that a demon is a spiritual personifisation of chaotic evil, it's not a demon if it's not chaotic evil.

So no, you can't have a non-evil or non-chaotic demon because it wouldn't be a demon.

This "infinite" thing just means that some demons would change their ways and stop being demons.

Spiryt
2008-08-24, 04:34 AM
Well, there was

Fall from Grace, but:

- she was Lawful Neutral, I think
- I don't remember if it was explained how shecan be LN succubuss

Probably must play Torment once again.

celestialkin
2008-08-24, 04:46 AM
It's directally preportional to the number of Helms of Opposite Alignment in the universe.

Um, not quite.

It is directly proportional to the number of Helms of Opposite Alignemnt + Deck of Many things in a multiverse.

I just came back from the bi-weekly game I run, and in it the imp which just joined the party's crew (it cut a deal to get off an island where it was imprison) decided to "borrow" one of the party member's Deck of Many Things to play with some crew NPCs and another of the PCs. He is now CG, and has an Assimar 4th level fighter sent straight from Celestia to assist him "redeem" himself.

There went some plothooks and storyline I had been planning.

nagora
2008-08-24, 05:21 AM
Since we've got a celbite succubus paladins statted out and demon worshipers(drow) converting en masse. Considering that there are infinite demons spread out across seperate universes, just how often will a good demon pop up?
Never. Demons are made by/from Evil and can't be anything else by definition.

hamishspence
2008-08-24, 05:48 AM
By strict definition a Demon is any Extraplanar Outsider with both the Chaotic and Evil subtypes.

Demonweb pits gives us the Cambion, a Usually Chaotic evil demon with a trace of non-demon blood, and is describes as 10% are Not Evil.

so, thats a pretty fair example. D&D has had exeptions to the Always Evil rule for a long time, and that has included fiends. So, yes, you can have a non-evil demon. Monster Manual even goes out of its way to say that non-evil creatures with Evil subtype suffer penalties of both alignments.

Conners
2008-08-24, 06:00 AM
It really depends on your campaign's definition of "demon". If you mean an Inuyasha type of demon, then I'm guessing you will get quite a few non-evil demons. If we're talking Satan-style of demons, however, then I'd say all of them are evil and will always be such--except perhaps the 1 in a google exception who is a plot-icon.

Treguard
2008-08-24, 06:16 AM
Rhu'zgar the kindly demon
He was born as good-aligned
And if you ever saw him
You could even say he shined

All of the other demons
Mocked him for his purity
They said they'll make poor Rhu'zgar
Suffer for eternity!

Amidst his hellish misery
Baator said to thee
"Argh your 'good' drives me insane!
Trick some souls here to be slain!"

Then all the demons cast him
Into the Material Plane
Now Rhu'zgar the kindly demon
Lives a life that's free from pain

CASTLEMIKE
2008-08-24, 06:22 AM
1 in 10,000 seems high.

Wouldn't a Good Demon be perceived as a racial traitor by most of demon kind who encountered it and seek to destroy it (even if only reporting it to a superior)?

Demons come with baggage wouldn't most other creatures capable of surviving an attack generally attack first and ask questions afterwards?

hamishspence
2008-08-24, 06:44 AM
like I said, WOTC has had Demons which are 1 in 10 Neutral or Good. However these had a trace of human blood.

MM: Always Evil means exceptions are either unique or very rare.
Evil subtype means most creatures have evil alignment, and exceptions are treated as evil for the purposes of spells that affect evil creatures different (they also suffer effects based on their actual alignment)

It depends how common you want to make execptions, and what you define as Very Rare.

Gorbash
2008-08-24, 07:53 AM
Probably must play Torment once again.

When in doubt - play Torment. Fall-From-Grace was sold to Baatezu by her mother, succubus Red Shroud (has a role in Savage Tide AP), which can be acounted for her Lawful aligment. The neutral part... Have no idea.

And you can't reall put a percent number of good demons, since that number would still be pretty damn high, given the infinite nature of demons, so people would know about them. A number less than 100 seems plausible.

Spiryt
2008-08-24, 07:58 AM
When in doubt - play Torment. Fall-From-Grace was sold to Baatezu by her mother, succubus Red Shroud (has a role in Savage Tide AP), which can be acounted for her Lawful aligment. The neutral part... Have no idea.


I just think that being LN was part of her torment. He really haven't wanted to be evil, so she tried to be different.

But it was struggle against very core of her nature.

Dorizzit
2008-08-24, 08:33 AM
Demons are just as capable of being good as Angels are capable of being evil. It's rare, but it happens.

RebelRogue
2008-08-24, 08:45 AM
We pondered that perhaps they became creatures of pure chaos or pure chaos and good, rather than pure chaos and evil, and I can't quite recall what that monster is.
As been pointed out, pure chaos and pure good would be an Eladrin. Pure chaos would be a slaad (although more than a few slaadi are actually evil).

Gorbash
2008-08-24, 09:03 AM
Demons are just as capable of being good as Angels are capable of being evil

But see, that's the point - they aren't. Evil angels are fallen angels - Eryness and the bunch. That's like calling Asmodeus an evil angel. He's not, he's a devil. In many Wizard/Paizo published adventures players encounter fallen angels (usually neutral, and who'll fall completely and become something else without pc's help). When an angel becomes evil, he becomes a devil, not an evil angel. So if a Demon became good (highely unlikely), he'd become something else. And we don't really know what that something else is.

hamishspence
2008-08-24, 09:05 AM
evil angels have been statted out before. And sample Lawful succubus in Wee Jas article in Dragon retained demon type, even when Chaotic subtype was removed.

So, a Good demon is still a demon. Especially if no changes to subtype have been made.

Dorizzit
2008-08-24, 10:05 AM
But see, that's the point - they aren't. Evil angels are fallen angels - Eryness and the bunch. That's like calling Asmodeus an evil angel. He's not, he's a devil. In many Wizard/Paizo published adventures players encounter fallen angels (usually neutral, and who'll fall completely and become something else without pc's help). When an angel becomes evil, he becomes a devil, not an evil angel. So if a Demon became good (highely unlikely), he'd become something else. And we don't really know what that something else is.

Fine but the point is still valid. Demons are just as capable of "rising" as angels are of falling, new form or no.

Prophaniti
2008-08-24, 11:56 AM
The probability of a random demon being anything other than evil is exactly 0. Any exceptions or deviations from evil are exactly that: exceptions, and would require extremely exceptional (almost unimaginable) circumstances to even come close to being justified (and even then, they're really not, you only think they are). Otherwise, they're just someone's attempt at adding more angst to their games. Because, as we all know, True Art is Angsty (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TrueArtIsAngsty).

Jayabalard
2008-08-24, 01:55 PM
But see, that's the point - they aren't. Evil angels are fallen angels - Eryness and the bunch. Before they fell though, they were indeed angels. Right after they fell, they were still probably quite angellic... the change over time to be a "devil" isn't something that would happen instantaneously.

So a devil who un-falls would eventually become more angelic, but you could theoretically meet one while they are still devil-like.


Any exceptions or deviations from evil are exactly that: exceptions, and would require extremely exceptional (almost unimaginable) circumstances to even come close to being justified (and even then, they're really not, you only think they are). Otherwise, they're just someone's attempt at adding more angst to their games. I don't see anything inherently unbelievable about redemption. Sure, with something that has fallen as far as a devil has, it's going to be very very hard, but it could be possible.


Demons are just as capable of "rising" as angels are of falling, new form or no.I'm going to have to disagree. Falling is much easier than the redemption. Angels are much more capable of falling than devils are of redemption.

Jayngfet
2008-08-24, 02:44 PM
Why, it's much more easy to say that swimming in a pool of gore(see the last war of the spider queen book) and having a boat that somehow needs souls(instead of animate object+awaken) for no reason other than"it's evil" is a bit much than leaving a society that strives for justice, peace, and fairness.

Also


It really depends on your campaign's definition of "demon". If you mean an Inuyasha type of demon, then I'm guessing you will get quite a few non-evil demons. If we're talking Satan-style of demons, however, then I'd say all of them are evil and will always be such--except perhaps the 1 in a google exception who is a plot-icon.

Satan style demons still have a good side:

From that other wiki:

"Some accounts of imps treat them as capable of being turned to good, because they are so desperately lonely they would do almost anything—even commit good deeds—to have a committed friend."

So the power of friendship (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ThePowerOfFriendship) can work the same as a helm of opposite alignment on "real" demons.

hamishspence
2008-08-24, 02:45 PM
agree on their difficulty, but also agree D&D making it a (rare) possibility was a Good Thing.

Fiendish Codex 1, plus Dragon mag details, make it clear demons come in several types. One is Corrupted Mortal Soul (tan'nari) which is ideal for Redemption stories.

The other is ancient creature from before the gods, who causes insanity, just by looking at it (obyriths). In this case. Always Chaotic Evil trope is justified.

Jayngfet
2008-08-24, 02:57 PM
The probability of a random demon being anything other than evil is exactly 0. Any exceptions or deviations from evil are exactly that: exceptions, and would require extremely exceptional (almost unimaginable) circumstances to even come close to being justified (and even then, they're really not, you only think they are). Otherwise, they're just someone's attempt at adding more angst to their games. Because, as we all know, True Art is Angsty (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TrueArtIsAngsty).

Something improbable and unusual is much more likley when you factor in the facts that.

A. You have infinite demons.

B. You have infinite universes with different rules for how they work, none of which makes sense in any way.

Prophaniti
2008-08-24, 05:24 PM
I don't see anything inherently unbelievable about redemption. Sure, with something that has fallen as far as a devil has, it's going to be very very hard, but it could be possible.But we're not talking about redemption here. In D&D cosmology, Demons are pure incarnations of chaos and evil. Devils are the ones who are sometimes fallen angels and such. Demons cannot be redeemed because it is simply contrary to their very being for them to willingly and knowingly commit good acts. If, through some convoluted set of circumstances, you have a demon who becomes a willing force for good, they are no longer a demon. What they are is anyone's guess, but they no longer fit the primary defining characteristic of Demons: Pure, undiluted, unrelenting, unrepentant incarnations of chaos and evil.

An interesting corollary to the way Demons are defined in D&D is that they cannot choose to do good, that they cannot, in fact, choose anything at all, but must always take the course of action that results in the most chaos and evil, based on their perceptions. This in turn might cause one to interpret them as almost a force of nature, which by that definition would make them neither good nor evil. But, since this is D&D, and morals are absolute and objective, lack of ability to choose one's actions does not preclude one from being good or evil, or a force for either.

From what I see, Demons are the embodiment of the very real and tangible forces of evil in the universe. They cannot deviate from it because to do so would change their very nature, like wind suddenly choosing to become fire. Through magic or other reality-changing forces, it may be possible, but if it happened, the wind would no longer be wind, but fire. And the Demon would no longer be a Demon, but something else entirely.

So, no, there is no such thing as a Good Demon.

My 2 5 10cp

Dorizzit
2008-08-24, 05:37 PM
I'm going to have to disagree. Falling is much easier than the redemption. Angels are much more capable of falling than devils are of redemption.

Common misconception. Although it is much harder to become accepted by the forces of good, it is no harder to become good than it is to become evil.

Lord_Asmodeus
2008-08-24, 05:44 PM
Might I present the D&D Fight Club's "Succubus Paladin" (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fc/20050824a) (no doubt people know about Eleducia, but its relevant) Eleducia is a good aligned Succubus Paladin, who was Redeemed by an Angel.

So yea, Demons can be good, just like Angels can be evil. (IMO)

I think its possible for an angel to be evil and a demon or devil to be good, without changing and becoming a demon/angel.

Mr.Bookworm
2008-08-24, 05:53 PM
No idea of it's canonical (probably not), but an article (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fc/20050824a) on the Wizard's website stats out a Paladin Succubus, complete with fluff.

There is, however, a canonical example of an angel becoming evil, in the Elder Evils book. Avamerin, a CE Advanced Elite Planetar.

EDIT:

*facepalm*

Stupid Complete Adventurer.

hamishspence
2008-08-25, 08:27 AM
Good Demon concept is more valid for 3.5 than 4th ed: demons could have more character, were not locked in to Destroyer territory. Succubus has been the most "devilish" of the demons for a while: sneaky schemer.

In some cases, demons retain more of their mortal personality: yochols, like Quenthel Baenre was, before she was ressurrected in Elaine Cunningham's Windwalker novel.

Jayabalard
2008-08-25, 08:35 AM
Although it is much harder to become accepted by the forces of good, it is no harder to become good than it is to become evil.Nope, it's much harder to become good than it is to become evil. Acceptance by others has nothing to do with it. Evil is the easy way, good is the hard way; easy is easier than hard.

hamishspence
2008-08-25, 08:49 AM
"quicker, easier, more seductive" Old trope. depending how firmly you apply it. Not sure if Hellboy counts are partially redeemed devil or demon. But the point to be made is, D&D rules do allow for redeemed fiends of various kinds.

What they do not allow for, is the PCs turning an evil fiend to the "light side" by diplomacy, or even the dubious Sanctify the Wicked spell. It takes Wish or Miracle and a generous DM. More likely is the whatzit choosing to seek out the Light Side off its own bat. You cannot transform a demon to good, but some atypical demons may choose Good.

black dragoon
2008-08-25, 09:09 AM
Wait are'nt Demons the literal personification of Evil and Chaos? I know fall from grace was LN or Cn one or the other but I have to imagine it's a VERY small fraction that are not out and out Evil.

Dorizzit
2008-08-25, 09:09 AM
Nope, it's much harder to become good than it is to become evil. Acceptance by others has nothing to do with it. Evil is the easy way, good is the hard way; easy is easier than hard.

I'm sorry, but that is simply not true. Let me break it down:

Evil, contrary to popular belief, is not the "easy way". A common misconception is that evil is simply being out for yourself and maybe enjoying it when other people are hurt. THIS IS NOT TRUE. Evil, true evil, isn't kicking a puppy in the street. Evil is hunting down puppies so that you can rape them with knives and get off on their agonized screams. Evil is mugging someone, shooting them in the stomach, and then forgetting to take their wallet. True Evil is as rare as, if not rarer than, True Good. And we all know how rare that is. In fact, it's actually harder to become evil than it is to become good. It requires a very specific mindset, one that thrives on others pain. Most people can appreciate helping others or bringing a smile to someone else's face, they just lack the dedicated commitment and ability to make sacrifices it takes to be truly good. I try to live my life that way, and it is just as fulfilling and easy as if I lived my life towards evil. So please, before you continue, think carefully before you make assumptions about how "easy" something is. Depraved appeasement of the id is not easier than helping other people.

Jayabalard
2008-08-25, 09:16 AM
Evil, true evil, isn't kicking a puppy in the street. Evil is hunting down puppies so that you can rape them with knives and get off on their agonized screams. Nope. Both are evil, the latter is just more evil than the former. Less evil is not the same thing as good.

Stabbing someone because you're mad at them is much easier than restraining yourself and not stabbing them.
Giving into temptation is much easier than resisting that temptation.
Doing what you want is much easier than making sacrifices.

Evil is much easier than Good.

That's why turning to evil is a "fall" falling is easy, no work at all; anyone can do it. Climbing up to the heights on the other hand, is very hard work; it's harder than most people can manage.

Dorizzit
2008-08-25, 09:25 AM
Nope. Both are evil, the latter is just more evil than the former. Less evil is not the same thing as good.

Wrong. One is unkind and unnecessary. One is evil. There's a BIG difference.


Stabbing someone because you're mad at them is much easier than restraining yourself and not stabbing them.

You have frequent violent urges like that? You may need to see a psychologist.


Giving into temptation is much easier than resisting that temptation.
That's true, but falling to most temptations would put you at "Neutral". Good and Evil are both much smaller than Neutral.


Doing what you want is much easier than making sacrifices.
I won't argue with that. But actual, true Evil as opposed to being an unkind person requires much more than you seem to think. You're doing what you want, but what you want requires a lot of effort.


That's why turning to evil is a "fall" falling is easy, no work at all; anyone can do it. Climbing up to the heights on the other hand, is very hard work; it's harder than most people can manage.

Yes, but to fall, you need to climb in the first place. Most people cannot climb. But few have enough dedication to leap, either.

celestialkin
2008-08-25, 09:27 AM
For the most part I tl;dr because I figured there would be some arguing over this (like in many alignment threads), and it seems I was right.

My personal opinion: My personal opinion, and everyone else's here means nothing. They are just ideas for a DM/GM to consider when creating his own way such things work in his setting.


None of your opinions are "correct". It all depends on how the OP sees demons and/or devils, how the OP sees free will, how the OP sees if outsiders have or can have free will, and how the OP sees redemption.


For example, I see all things having free will, and all things including outsiders having eternal souls, which is reflected in my games. Actually, in my most recent session they came across an imp who in the same session took a PC's Deck of Many Things it had left with a cohort, and is now CG. It also got a Knight card, so I scripted it as an aasimar (lv.3 fighter) was sent directly from Celestia by the gods to take the job in order to help redeem this being.

The player who owned the deck (through his cohort who was currently watching over the deck) stated that his Paladin master "won't be pleased", and hinted that he might destroy the imp for breaking the magical box which contained the deck (it was a family heirloom), or perhaps banish it. When the PC returns, if he actually does it, or banishes the imp I will have it so Moradin strips him of his paladin abilities/levels.

I would do the same to an actual angel/celestial going after a demon or devil who has genuinely repented, even if it popped up in Celestia. Why? Because the way I (just I) see it, it would actually be easier for a demon or devil who has genuinely turned good to be accepted by the good outsiders and the gods they serve, than it would be for a celestial to be accepted in the abyss or baator (Then again, in the abyss it would be more if he can survive like everyone else, including the demons. It's just that a celestial would be a funner trophy than another everyday demon, and it would certainly stand out more.). I even see it as a demon or devil who has been good for a long time would eventually begin to transform into a celestial or other good outsider, while a fallen angel would slowly turn into either a demon or devil depending on which way it falls. This is actually what I now had planned for the previously mentioned imp, depending on whether the PCs choose to help it in it's attempt at redemption.

Again, everything I just said above is only how I feel things should run in my homebrewed setting.

celestialkin
2008-08-25, 09:51 AM
You have frequent violent urges like that? You may need to see a psychologist.

I thought the exact same thing. Easier? If anything, you COMPLETELY showed a great example of how the different alignments work. For some more violent people taking out the knife (which I am assuming they are keeping in their back pocket...) might be the "easier" solution, while having restraint would be harder for them; however, that is certainly not the case for everyone on our planet.

What would be considered a Good aligned person IRL would instinctively find it "easier" (and simply prefer) to try talking to the person to find a solution, and a religious one might try to mention verses and such to try and "help" the person. Such Good people would certainly find these methods "easier" than stabbing the guy/gal.

In my case, I would certainly not find it easier to stab someone for simply being mad at them. Jeez, not only do I risk getting stabbed/killed myself, but then I have to worry about needing to dispose of the body and all that work. Plus I find risking going to jail for most/all of my remaining life much more difficult than just walking away. My natural instinct is to always walk away from people I am mad at and avoid them. If they are important to me, I will try approaching them after everything has cooled down. Having to deal with a body and possible murder case would be too much work for my tastes, and I have no interest in trying to "help" people I am mad with. So, do you want to guess what alignment I would fall under? :smallsmile:

MammonAzrael
2008-08-25, 10:13 AM
I'm not going to jump into the arguments here, but I agree with Prophaniti. While yes, in other mythologies it could be quite possible for demons to redeem themselves (or be forcefully redeemed a'la magic), this is D&D. Since Demons are the incarnations of Chaos and Evil, being anything else would mean they are no longer demons. There are no Drizz'its among demons, because it is literally impossible for them to be anything other than what they are.

Telonius
2008-08-25, 10:29 AM
Two issues that are cropping up here, mechanical and semantic. Mechanically, a demon with a Good alignment would still have the Outsider type and the rest of it. They would still be, in mechanical terms, a demon.

Whether or not a Cleric (or anybody else in-game) would still call the resulting thing a "demon" is a semantic question. The answer depends on how the game world's cosmology is handled. In-game religions might have different answers for it, and in-game characters and NPCs might react in various different ways to the situation.

Wizards of the Coast has posted stats for Eludecia (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fc/20050824a), a redeemed Succubus paladin. Apparently it's possible enough within D&D for them to post it.

By the way, just once I'd like to see something other than a Succubus redeemed. Where's the love for the Nalfeshnees?

celestialkin
2008-08-25, 10:37 AM
I'm not going to jump into the arguments here, but I agree with Prophaniti. While yes, in other mythologies it could be quite possible for demons to redeem themselves (or be forcefully redeemed a'la magic), this is D&D. Since Demons are the incarnations of Chaos and Evil, being anything else would mean they are no longer demons. There are no Drizz'its among demons, because it is literally impossible for them to be anything other than what they are.

Again, that completely depends on the DM who's world you are playing on.

Remember Rule 0, and that all the rules in the core books are only guidelines (it says it in the core books).

Even then, remember that the core books are by default based in Greyhawk (In 3.x. Jeez, put edition numbers in the titles!). Take a look at different settings from 3.x, and before. Ever hear of the rogue modrons? Heck, even in Greyhawk and in the Core Books what you said above is wrong. Have you ever heard of Asmodeus, Baator, and baatezu--devils? If in official D&D it was impossible for outsiders and such to change themselves of their own free will an entire plane (OK, Baator was actually there before hand, but mysteriously empty) and faction of outsiders would not exist.

You are stating that according to the official D&D rules it should not be possible, so does that mean that the core books say that pages 50-58 of the Monster Manual (one of the three core books) should not be there? Kinda confusing why they would waste so much time making, and so much time and money printing those pages.

MammonAzrael
2008-08-25, 11:01 AM
Of course Rule 0 always applies. But if there were the case, the OP wouldn't have needed to ask GitP in the first place, he simply would've said "This here is a good demon."

Of course the possibility of good demons is going to vary from setting to setting, but without a single setting already defined by the thread, I based my thoughts off the "standard" setting (Greyhawk 3.5). Since this is a hypothetical discussion, and not a request for help, I think this needs to be clarified. As far as I can see, in "standard D&D and demon cannot be anything other than chaotic and evil, or it ceases to be a demon. I'm not that well versed in other settings(Faerun, Eberron, Planescape, etc) cosmology, so I can't speak there. And of course, in a home brewed setting you can do whatever you please. :smallsmile:

I never mentioned all outsiders, simply demons, so your argument about devils, modrons, and any other type of outsider is moot. being an incarnation of their alignment is a trait of demons, not outsiders.

In Fiendish Codex 1 - Hordes of the Abyss it is pretty strongly implied that demons are the manifestation of the Abyss which is itself alive in some fashion (page 6) and that demons can't be anything other than chaotic and evil. I haven't read the entire book, so I can't say if there are better (or refuting) passages deeper in it's pages.

Eldariel
2008-08-25, 11:15 AM
The idea of a good demon seems really out there to me. As I understand it, Demons (and aligned outsiders in general) are actual embodiments of the alignment - that is, their alignment is their very existence. Rather than being free, thinking beings, I see their alignment pretty much defining their very existence, which of course makes them being any other than their natural alignment completely impossible. I'm not sure how much of that is canon though.

hamishspence
2008-08-25, 11:30 AM
A demon must have the Evil and Chaotic subtypes, or it ceases to be a demon. However, this is not the same as Must Be Chaotic And Evil, since, by Monster Manual descriptions of alignment subtypes, a creature can have an alignment differing from its subtypes.

This is the Non-evil demons loophole.

Inhuman Bot
2008-08-25, 11:52 AM
You know how eryines are fallen angels? Well, Theres a type of demon (I don't know the book, sorry) that are "fallen" demons.
After reading, I see that has been said.

Jayngfet
2008-08-25, 01:42 PM
So if outsiders represent alignments what happened to Eyrnies? Vecena knows how many beings that embody pure good fell to evil at once.

Adumbration
2008-08-25, 01:47 PM
I would like to see an evil demon "fall" into the good side.

Eldariel
2008-08-25, 02:12 PM
I would like a universe where every good being isn't automatically in danger of being immediately corrupt and every evil being weren't totally consummated with irredeemable evil. I just can't believe in cosmic balance if the forces of good keep falling, the forces of evil stay evil and things supposedly start at an equilibrium. Unless evil kills itself just as much as good bolsters it, which would mean that the only fighting in the multiverse is evil vs. evil with good guys being the "backup evil guys" for when evil guys die and more evil guys are needed. So ultimately, the PCs and the angels and all those are just substitutes waiting for evil guys to fall to take their real place in the universal evil vs. evil struggle.

Deadmeat.GW
2008-08-25, 02:19 PM
Actually given the bunch of spells that change your alignment permanently out there I would say yes, it could happen but as a DM I would make it an exceptional occasion.

A geasa or serious curse would be amusing to use to change an alignment.

Also I would say that for the purposes of detect alignment all the alignments would be visible if the demon/devil is particularly good.
Just to make it difficult on players ;).

For instance as a houserule I made Lycans always show as their standard alignment, regardless of actual alignment.
After all Lycanthropy is a disease and for this effect you keep triggering evil as alignment as long as you are 'diseased'.

monty
2008-08-25, 05:35 PM
Fallen Archfiend (http://kol.coldfront.net/thekolwiki/index.php/Fallen_Archfiend)?