Roy saved Elan? I don't see it.

[Ron Miel]

At Roy's "trial" thediva said that he saved Elan.
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0488.html

And the same point has been made in various discussions, such as
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=88706
post 34

I don't actually see that Roy saved Elan. It looks to me like the other way around.
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0233.html
First of all, it was Roy's actions that put Elan in danger in the first place. If Roy hadn't impersonated the king, they wouldn't have been the target for assassination. Elan was offered the chance to walk out of there unharmed, but he ignored the offer and chose to stay with Roy. It was Elan's idea to use the belt. His smart thinking saved Roy. Then again, Roy was reluctant to accept Elan's plan. They could both have walked out of there, unharmed, but Roy refused. If he hadn't been so proud, then perhaps Elan wouldn't have been poisoned in the first place. And when he finally put the belt on, it was to save himself as much as saving Elan. I don't see that putting on the belt was particularly heroic.

[The Boyce]

Except if Elan hadn't sent Roy's weapons and his own away to be cleaned Roy would have been Power attacking the would be assassins instead of hiding in a closet. Further had Elan not been poisoned Roy could have used the mop handle as a weapon and fought off the assassins.

He however judged that combat would take too long and so he CHOSE to prioritize Elan first and his gender second.

In the same vein if Roy hadn't accepted the role as King of Nowhere then the assassin would likely have succeeded in killing the real King of Nowhere and throwing the surrounding wheres into chaos.

[Lissou]

At Roy's "trial" thediva said that he saved Elan.
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0488.html

And the same point has been made in various discussions, such as
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=88706
post 34

I don't actually see that Roy saved Elan. It looks to me like the other way around.
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0233.html
First of all, it was Roy's actions that put Elan in danger in the first place. If Roy hadn't impersonated the king, they wouldn't have been the target for assassination. Elan was offered the chance to walk out of there unharmed, but he ignored the offer and chose to stay with Roy. It was Elan's idea to use the belt. His smart thinking saved Roy. Then again, Roy was reluctant to accept Elan's plan. They could both have walked out of there, unharmed, but Roy refused. If he hadn't been so proud, then perhaps Elan wouldn't have been poisoned in the first place. And when he finally put the belt on, it was to save himself as much as saving Elan. I don't see that putting on the belt was particularly heroic.

I kind of agree. Just like the first time, with the bandits, he abandonned Elan then changed his mind, to me he did the exact same thing there. He put Elan in danger again, then when Elan was going to die right in front of him, decided to do something after all. I wouldn't call it heroic, just, "not being evil."

But, well, Roy has obvious issues, and I guess what the deva meant is that he tries to do good in the end, even though he acts poorly in the middle. He's only human after all.

[SPoD]

The theory you seem to have here is, "If any event in a series of cause-and-effect events is done for unheroic reasons, then no event that later transpires can be heroic, because it wouldn't have happened without the unheroic bit." Which seems suspect to me.

Roy could have fought his way out of the closet, and maybe he would have been able to do so in time to save Elan (though maybe not). He could have taken that chance. Instead, he chose to essentially mutilate himself--without a clear idea of when, if ever, it would be reversed--because it was the statistically more probable chance of saving him.

It doesn't matter how they got in the closet (which was as much Elan's fault as Roy's); when it came down to the moment of truth, the decision to sacrifice a body part in order to save another person is a heroic one.

[Lissou]

It doesn't matter how they got in the closet (which was as much Elan's fault as Roy's); when it came down to the moment of truth, the decision to sacrifice a body part in order to save another person is a heroic one.

I agree that it doesn't matter how they got into the closet. What matters is that the only thing Roy did was not let someone who loves him die right in front of him. I don't thin it's heroic. I think it's normal.
Plus, Disguising himself to escape isn't really something brave to do.

And... "sacrifice a body part"? Really? Man, are men actually that attached to their penises? It's just a belt, it's not like you can't take a belt off.

If your only base for Roy doing something heroic is "he's such a **** that accepting to be a woman for a few minutes to save a life is acting like a hero for him", well I'm sorry but your defense is worse than an attack.

EDIT: wow, this board actually has censure. That's weird. The funny part of my comment ends up being lost, too. Oh well.

[blackspeeker]

And... "sacrifice a body part"? Really? Man, are men actually that attached to their penises? It's just a belt, it's not like you can't take a belt off.

If your only base for Roy doing something heroic is "he's such a **** that accepting to be a woman for a few minutes to save a life is acting like a hero for him", well I'm sorry but your defense is worse than an attack.


A few minutes, hardly, if this current arc has taught us anything it's that magically reversing the characters problems is not always readily available. Like saying death in DND is only temporary, saying roy would only be a woman for a few minutes is ignorant, he had no way of knowing that his bluff would have even worked on the dwarf for one, and for two he couldn't very well know that his companions were truly safe from the assassins at the time.

Yes I know the dwarf said they would be if he gave himself over, but honestly , who really believes the word of a man who is willing to kill you?

[SmartAlec]

IAnd... "sacrifice a body part"? Really? Man, are men actually that attached to their penises? It's just a belt, it's not like you can't take a belt off.

Well, no, not this one. The whole point of the Belt of Reverse Gender (or whatever) is that it's a cursed item and can't be removed , except by a Remove Curse spell. Roy couldn't have taken it off without Durkon's help (Vaarsuvius has never cast Remove Curse, so it's possible s/he doesn't know that spell) and had something happened to Durkon, Roy would have been stuck as a woman until he found a powerful enough cleric to remove the thing.

So if you see it as voluntarily stepping into a fairly powerful curse to save a friend, the act looks a little shinier.

[Lissou]

Okay. Let's admit he would have been changed into a woman forever.
Honestly, on the spur of the moment, when he friends of yours is dying, I don't see how anyone could decide not to do it. I don't see how anyone who isn't evil could say "you know what I'll let him die".

What I'm saying is, it's not heroic. Sure, it's good. And that's why it can be used for him to go in the good Afterlife. But it's not heroic, unless you value something like gender more than your friend's life. Which, again, would make Roy a pretty bad person, and that's why I think it wasn't a dilemma.

So, to sum it up, I think if it's heroic => Roy had a dilemma => Roy isn't sure if being male is more important than Elan's life or not => Roy is someone I wouldn't want to know in real life.

So no, I don't think it's heroic.

I think Roy is a normal person. I think he's got qualities and flaws, but he's a good person, and that's why he did it, but there is a difference between being good and being a hero.
I think the one important thing would be "he wasn't going to do it to save his life but did it to save Elan's" which means he does value other people's lives over his own.
Of course, there is also the time thing. If Elan hadn't been poisoned, he would have had enough time to do something else. And I do understand not chosing to turn into a woman as your first option, I guess.

[SmartAlec]

Do heroic acts necessarily have to involve a dilemma? "I didn't have a choice" is a classic hero line, after all.

[Lissou]

Do heroic acts necessarily have to involve a dilemma? "I didn't have a choice" is a classic hero line, after all.

Probably not always, but if there isn't a choice at all, it's not the person being heroic, it's just them doing the only possible thing to do. Of course, they can have a choice and think they don't.

Jumping on the dragon to fight Xykon, although incredibly stupid, sounds more along the lines of "heroic" to me, because it was kinda uncalled for. Bein heroic is doing something brave and selfless when nothing forces you to, and you have to kind of go out of your way. Here I don't see it because for one thing he's alone with Elan and nobody else would do it if he didn't, and for another it's also saving him.

I mean, if the people would let Elan and a random girl go unharmed, then they would let Elan go unharmed. Therefore, he could also have surrendered, Elan would have been able to escape anyway, the only difference is that Roy himself wouldn't have been safe.
He could have gone out, say he surrendered but asked if they'd let him just carry the poisonned guy to safety. Or asked one of them to do so. If he trusted them enough to let both of them go with gender-switch, I don't see any of that being a stretch.
Plus, while in a woman's body, he probably was less able to defend himself and protect Elan, if only because he wasn't used to the body. (Gender doesn't seem to make a difference in strength in DnD so it probably wouldn't have changed that, though).

In other words, if they were not going to let innocents go, Elan might have been more in danger with Roy as a female, and either was wasn't more safe. If they were going to let innocents go, Elan would have been safe either way. So it really benefitted Roy the most (and the story itself, obviously).

[rickvoid]

Do heroic acts necessarily have to involve a dilemma? "I didn't have a choice" is a classic hero line, after all.

"I didn't have a choice" doesn't mean that the Hero didn't have a choice. It means that they made the choice to put their life on the line for someone else because their own honor, code, or conscience demanded that they do just that or spend the rest of their existence living with the shame that when given the opportunity to do good, they balked.

It's why we call people who throw themselves on live grenades in order to shield those around them in exchange for their own lives "Heroes" rather than "Frigging Idiots".

A hero doesn't have to be a hero. They can always walk away, and live with the consequences.

[Lissou]

"I didn't have a choice" doesn't mean that the Hero didn't have a choice. It means that they made the choice to put their life on the line for someone else because their own honor, code, or conscience demanded that they do just that or spend the rest of their existence living with the shame that when given the opportunity to do good, they balked.

It's why we call people who throw themselves on live grenades in order to shield those around them in exchange for their own lives "Heroes" rather than "Frigging Idiots".

A hero doesn't have to be a hero. They can always walk away, and live with the consequences.

Actually, I'd argue that they're true heroes when there is little consequence to them not acting. By which I mean, people wouldn't be like "shame one you", but more "there was nothing you could do" or "nobody would have expeced you to do that" and so on.
Especially when it's in a group, and no one does a thing. They then share the responsability, but usually aren't blamed too much. For something to be heroic, it needs not to be too shamefull if you don't do it.
See what I mean?

If not doing it is terrible, cowardly and shameful, than doing it is just normal. Possibly brave, and of course good, but not heroic.
If nobody would blame you for not taking that risk, and yet you take it, then that's heroic.

[rickvoid]

I wasn't talking about other people being ashamed of them, I was talking about living with your own conscience.

I think that anytime you put your own life on the line for someone else it's being heroic. Just because the alternative is being called a coward doesn't make it any less heroic. You're still putting yourself in the possible personal sacrifice position, and there are far more people out there who are too chicken-**** to do that than there are those who would.

[hamishspence]

self-sacrificing behaviour is defined as strongest form of heroism by Exalted Deeds. Doing a good deed that doesn't really cost you anything is less heroic.

Roy's most heroic deed concerning Elan was throwing himself in front of arrows. But the other 2 cases show some risks, or sacrifices, as well.

[Lissou]

Well, I think heroism is a very heavy word that shouldn't be used for every good deed, which is why it doesn't apply here IMO. Roy taking arrows for Elan applies more, although probably not totally.
I actually get annoyed when people use it for anything, because by these standards every single human being is a hero. Being a hero is something very special, and can't apply to every single good thing you do.

[Ron Miel]

Except if Elan hadn't sent Roy's weapons and his own away to be cleaned Roy would have been Power attacking the would be assassins instead of hiding in a closet.

Yeah, he'd have been attacking highly skilled professional killers with a bit of wood. He'd have got a face full of poisoned shuriken. Actually it was a bit of luck for him that Elan sent the weapons away.



Further had Elan not been poisoned Roy could have used the mop handle as a weapon and fought off the assassins.

And he'd have been killed doing so.

[LordVader]

And... "sacrifice a body part"? Really? Man, are men actually that attached to their penises? It's just a belt, it's not like you can't take a belt off.


Well, as we saw taking the belt off didn't really solve anything.
Plus, if I had no guarantee I'd be able to change back, well, it'd be really, REALLY weird. Like, REALLY. I doubt many people here would do it.

[The Boyce]

Yeah, he'd have been attacking highly skilled professional killers with a bit of wood. He'd have got a face full of poisoned shuriken. Actually it was a bit of luck for him that Elan sent the weapons away.




And he'd have been killed doing so.

First off, highly skilled? Where in this comic do they ever seem highly skilled? A bit of wood? Oh yes I suppose every club/greatclub IS just a bit of wood, but it's also lethal damage of the 1d12 variety. Further since Roy has a big Fort save, unlike Elan, I doubt the poison would have effected him. You seem to sell Roy's fighting capabilities short especially given his high amount of hp.

[Kish]

I'd just like to observe that this conversation has shifted from "Roy didn't save Elan" to "okay, Roy saved Elan, but it wasn't especially heroic of him."

[FujinAkari]

And he'd have been killed doing so.

Exceedingly Doubtful. Roy lasted several rounds against an Epic Level Lich. A couple of thieves which were half his level wouldn't have been a problem.

[Uncle Festy]

Jumping on the dragon to fight Xykon, although incredibly stupid, sounds more along the lines of "heroic" to me, because it was kinda uncalled for. Bein heroic is doing something brave and selfless when nothing forces you to, and you have to kind of go out of your way.

Ok, see? Your whole argument is based on the idea that Roy's action wasn't heroic because his action (putting on the belt) was magically reversible. But you accept that Roy risking his life to fight Xykon was heroic.
Guess what? In the OotS world, death is also reversible.
Sure, it's harder to reverse, but it's not that much more inconvenient for a lv. 13+ adventurer then casting Remove Curse. In other words, since nearly all consequences in the OotS world are reversible for a high-level adventurer, all sacrificial actions by them are heroic, or none are. (Which by the way is one of the reasons that high level play is so tough to work with).
I don't really know which one of those I support, though…

[Ron Miel]

Exceedingly Doubtful. Roy lasted several rounds against an Epic Level Lich.

In their first encounter, Xykon kept the Order alive because he needed them to open the gate. He could have destroyed them with a thought. Roy was only able to defeat him because the gate was there.

On their second encounter, Xykon kept Roy alive for a few minutes to taunt him. Then when he grew bored he killed Roy easily. Roy is no match for an epic-level lich on his own.



A couple of thieves which were half his level wouldn't have been a problem.

They were assassins, not thieves. How do you know their level, they seem evenly matched to me. And Roy was unarmed against thrown weapons coated with deadly poison. He would have been in a lot of trouble.

[SmartAlec]

On their second encounter, Xykon kept Roy alive for a few minutes to taunt him. Then when he grew bored he killed Roy easily. Roy is no match for an epic-level lich on his own.

To be fair to ol' Roy, he did take one of Xykon's meteor swarms to the face and was still alive; and that's not a low-level spell, what is it, eighth level? We can see the spell was enough to destroy the zombie dragon, even though Roy is clearly the target. The finisher was the fall damage. Had the two of them been fighting on solid ground, and Xykon had not cast Overland Flight on himself prior to the fight - in other words, if it was a straight showdown - Mr. Greenhilt might well have lasted a bit longer.

After all, a few panels later we see Xykon's spells being interrupted by attacks from Paladins who are presumably lower-level and less well-equipped than Roy.

[hamishspence]

9th. However high damage spells are Not That Good.

[SmartAlec]

They do seem to be the majority of what Xykon's got, though. He's a Sorceror, not a Wizard. Maybe Roy wouldn't be much of a match for a Batman-style wizard lich, but against Xykon, who is very much a Blaster sorceror, things might be a bit more even.

[AMJ]

What I'm saying is, it's not heroic. Sure, it's good. And that's why it can be used for him to go in the good Afterlife. But it's not heroic, unless you value something like gender more than your friend's life. Which, again, would make Roy a pretty bad person, and that's why I think it wasn't a dilemma.

So, to sum it up, I think if it's heroic => Roy had a dilemma => Roy isn't sure if being male is more important than Elan's life or not => Roy is someone I wouldn't want to know in real life.



Ok hrmm how to break this gently...:smallamused:

The average guy is quite attached to his d***; and for some of us, me included, it would be a dire dilemma to change gender/loose the "Trouser Titan" compared to saving our own life and much more to save another person's life... I guess that makes me someone you do not wish to know IRL but then we are only communicating on a forum :smallsmile: So I guess it is ok.

Actually if you are interested in the subject of guys considerations of sexuality in general and "The trouser Titan" in particular, then I would suggest your fellow countryman (though now I believe he is living in Spain): Michel Houellebecq, he is a strong authority on male thinking among some of us (you could take any of his books but I figure "Extension du domaine de la lutte" is the best place to start). I do not have the willpower to learn french but I would love to be able to read it in the original language.

... and to get back on subject a bit more: It was a huge potential sacrifice that Roy considered, with potentially extreme consequences for the rest of his life. It was a remarkable heroic move he made, and a move I don't think that many adult males would be willing to copy.

[teratorn]

... and to get back on subject a bit more: It was a huge potential sacrifice that Roy considered, with potentially extreme consequences for the rest of his life. It was a remarkable heroic move he made, and a move I don't think that many adult males would be willing to copy.

Yep, I would let Elan die.

[FujinAkari]

They were assassins, not thieves. How do you know their level, they seem evenly matched to me. And Roy was unarmed against thrown weapons coated with deadly poison. He would have been in a lot of trouble.

Hrmmm... well apparently "Summon Shadow" does something that I wasn't anticipating, so my whole argument is debunked. I'll leave it here for posterity tho (and its not TOTAL trash. Even if they are the same level, the assassins aren't doing very good damage to Roy and his high Fort save)

This comic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0229.html) tells me that the Shadowdancer (the apparent leader) could not summon shadows yet, which means he is only 1st or 2nd level. This puts his overall level at about 8th, vs Roy who is 11th or 12th at this point.

The second assassin is harder to place, but is clearly the subordinate, so I put him at the same level, if not slightly lower.

Roy isn't unarmed, he is using a quarterstaff twohanded. Neither assassin seem to be wearing much (if any) armor, and are relying on their dexterity. This means that Roy will have a fairly simple time hitting them, possibly even power attacking (which will mean he's doing 1d6+16 per hit, and if he gets them in melee he's hitting up to 3 times a round)

The shadowdancer will have, on average (at level 9) 40 hp + con bonus, so 1d6+14 damage per twack is gonna drop him like a sack of bricks. The Dwarf will have more hitpoints, most likely, but also is markedly less dangerous.

We don't know what poison they were using, but even the strongest Con-based poisons only have about a 30% chance of affecting Roy, and even if they -do- affect him, Roy has Con to spare, so he won't go down like Elan did.

We end up with the following:

1) Roy can likely knock out the Shadow Dancer (who seems more dangerous) in 3 - 4 hits, if he's power attacking.
2) There is a 70% (or higher!) chance the Shadowdancer will only do 1d4 damage, because Roy has an excellent Fort save. The Shadowdancer likely only gets one attack per round, because if he stays in Melee Range of Roy, he'll get hit 3 times and that'll finish him.
3) The dwarf is a marksman, but Roy is aware of him and so he won't be able to Sneak Attack. There is no evidence that he has a melee weapon, and even if he did Roy would simply take a turn away from the more dangerous Shadow Dancer and power attack him three times, which would likely either KO or nearly KO him (3d6+48 damage!)

So... yeah... both the Dwarf and the Shadowdancer are doing HORRIBLE damage to Roy (the dwarf being unable to sneak attack, and Roy resisting the poison 70% of the time) while Roy can hit them for a 4th of their life every round. It is likely that the poison would affect Roy once or twice, but Roy has very high Con, and he'd only be suffering 1d6 or 2d6 Con Damage per hit, which is unlikely to kill him. (In the event it is 2d6, his chance to resist increases to 85%)

Thus... yep! Thats why I say Roy would certainly be able to handle two assassins, although I will admit to miscalcultating the Shadow Dancer's Level, I thought he was 6 where he must be at least 8.

[Yendor]

This comic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0229.html) tells me that the Shadowdancer (the apparent leader) could not summon shadows yet, which means he is only 1st or 2nd level. This puts his overall level at about 8th, vs Roy who is 11th or 12th at this point.

That same comic says he's proposing to shadow jump, requiring at least four levels in shadowdancer, and depending on how far he needs to move (up to 30 feet there and back), as many as eight.

[FujinAkari]

That same comic says he's proposing to shadow jump, requiring at least four levels in shadowdancer, and depending on how far he needs to move (up to 30 feet there and back), as many as eight.

... and this is what I get for just reading things like "Summon Shadow" and assuming it refers to Summoning a Shadow he can use to hide... my bad!

I'll leave the above post there in a spoiler, although all my pretty math is ruined now! :P

[Lizard Lord]

And... "sacrifice a body part"? Really? Man, are men actually that attached to their penises?


...

Yes.


Can you honestly say you wouldn't miss your sex organ?


Also:
because by these standards every single human being is a hero

Not me. At least not yet. I know what I would like to think I would do, but that is not necessarily the same as what I would do. I would like to think I would throw myself on the grenade, but I don't know for sure that I would.

You don't know until it happens to you. I am not a hero until I know. As such, I am not a hero until I do.

Also, no not everyone would. Most? I like to think so. Everyone? No.

[Shadic]

The argument saying that "Because he's low on options, picking the most heroic one isn't heroic," ...Doesn't really work.

Men are, for the most part, rather attached to their male parts. Hell, it's been a symbol of masculinity for thousands of years.

[Ron Miel]

In what way was it a heroic option?

No, the argument is "when you're low on options, picking the one that gets you out of trouble isn't heroic"

[The Boyce]

No but picking the one that saves your friend is heroic

[busterswd]

And when he finally put the belt on, it was to save himself as much as saving Elan.

Next comic pretty much shows he would've taken his chances fighting rather than taken the path of least resistance had Elan not created a time crunch.



The theory you seem to have here is, "If any event in a series of cause-and-effect events is done for unheroic reasons, then no event that later transpires can be heroic, because it wouldn't have happened without the unheroic bit." Which seems suspect to me.

is the summary of the rest of your argument.

So technically Roy fighting to save Azure City was not a heroic action, seeing as his original motivation for fighting Xykon was to win his father's recognition, not to save the world; thus since his original motivations were impure and basically lead to Xykon being able to work under the cover of assumed death, Roy was in fact responsible for the destruction of Azure City.

[tribble]

apparently this guy needs to be made to understand that good does not equal dumb. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0584.html)

[busterswd]

apparently this guy needs to be made to understand that good does not equal dumb. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0584.html)

Ha, ironically, I think this was the same poster who used that exact same comic as the basis for a thread claiming Burlew ripped off Pratchett, not realizing Terry Pratchett didn't actually make up his own concepts and was more prone to parodying/satirizing known concepts.

[Jayngfet]

Let's just say they both screwed up.

[AceOfFools]

I went with first time Roy saved Elan on that one.

Elan got kidnapped because the party was distracted by getting shot full of arrows. It took them a strip to realize it, and they were going up against thieves that new the area well. Chasing blindly after them could have been disastrous (especially with that 50% miss chance). Not to mention that 2 out of the remaining 5 people theoretically have 20' move speed (Durkon and Roy).

And Roy came back and all but literally pulled Elan of the chopping block.

It's hard to argue that Roy didn't save Elan there.

On a different note, I would like to point out the ease with which Roy naturalized the dwarven assassin, and the fact that shadowdancers by their nature are a rather squishy class, I wouldn't put a large sum of money down the dancer surviving long enough for his shadow companion (whose attack bonus is very low) to take out the Blue Warrior.

Not being a gambling man, I wouldn't put much money on that not happening, but it's not a forgone conclusion.

[Ron Miel]

Ha, ironically, I think this was the same poster who used that exact same comic as the basis for a thread claiming Burlew ripped off Pratchett, not realizing Terry Pratchett didn't actually make up his own concepts and was more prone to parodying/satirizing known concepts.

Actually, that was the entire point of my thread. I'm so9rry that you failed to understand that basic point.

[busterswd]

Actually, that was the entire point of my thread. I'm so9rry that you failed to understand that basic point.

No, the entire point of your thread was people expressing confusion over someone holding the belief that a satirist coined an original concept, then accusing someone of copying that satirist's brilliant concept.

Pratchett PARODIES other works, the connection to him and Burlew is circumstantial at best. Your argument consisted of a basic correlation = causality relationship, which still baffles me. Firefighters have a high incidence rate of activity around fires, therefore firefighters cause fires?

[Ron Miel]

Well, gosh, that put me in my place. Obviously you know the point of my thread better than I do.

[busterswd]

Well, gosh, that put me in my place. Obviously you know the point of my thread better than I do.

When 5 pages of people don't agree with what you're saying... yeah. I'm going to stop short of flaming, but suffice to say pretty much nobody agreed with your OP. It has less to do with understanding the point of your thread, and more with your original point being implausible at best.

[Warren Dew]

Elan was offered the chance to walk out of there unharmed, but he ignored the offer and chose to stay with Roy. It was Elan's idea to use the belt.

It was also Elan's idea for him to cast "disguise self" on Roy. It was also Elan's idea to go into the closet in the first place. I don't see how that can be blamed on Roy, who could probably have picked up one of the first throwing stars and meleed his way out with that - especially if Elan had been smart to take the dwarf up on the offer to walk out of there, thus eliminating Roy's biggest handicap in a fight.

[paladin_carvin]

The key error here is not understanding the nature of good. Good is not about never being mistaken, having errors in judgment, make poor decisions or ever letting your emotions get your better. Being good is about making your wrongs right. You can see the opposite in Start of Darkness.

I would say that a hero is one who takes action to his ideals. Heroes can be good or evil, or even non-definite. The greater and riskier the action, the more a hero someone is.

As for saving Elan, Roy did twice. Roy made his wrong right when he came back and saved Elan and the rest. This was not necessarily heroic, at least, not more so than his normal actions. But Roy did save Elan and it was a good deed (especially since he was willing to admit his mistake afterwards, even if Elan never found out). In the hotel Roy did a good act as well as a heroic act. Roy was reluctant to follow a plan that changed his body. I don't care what you feel about equality, sexuality or gender identity; no one should be looked down on for not wanting to change their gender. It isn't machoism; it is simply the desire to maintain an important part of your being that you (as is right) care about and is integral to ones self image. This is a self sacrificing act. It may have been poor judgment that he did not take the plan immediately, but Elan was still saved and Roy still sacrificed himself while he still had other options which were more self serving. How they got into the mess where Elan was in danger is irrelevant for the most part, especially since the set of consequences were unpredictable. There wasn't any wrong intent with what Roy did, though it was indeed preventable.

Anyway, I think it's a harsh rap to give to Roy. I think the Giant would support this conclusion (only based on his commentaries in the books and what that angel and Celia said about lawfulness and goodness).

[Ron Miel]

... I'm going to stop short of flaming ...

Yeah, right. And that comment isn't in itself an implicit flame, I suppose.

You are a troublemaker and I'm done talking with you.

[busterswd]

Yeah, right. And that comment isn't in itself an implicit flame, I suppose.

You are a troublemaker and I'm done talking with you.

It is hard to express in polite, unoffensive terms that something another person has expressed doesn't make sense at its very core. You can resort to ad hominem all you want, but the fact of the matter is you have yet to respond to me questioning the validity of your comments and have instead resorted to discrediting me.

You still have yet to refute me showing evidence that if Roy were on his own, he would've resorted to fighting ('with an improvised quarter staff") as opposed to mutilating his own genitalia. In addition, you haven't responded to my (and various other posters') argument that even if you inadvertently caused an event through a less than noble justification, that doesn't make your subsequent actions to rectify the ensuing events less heroic. Instead, you've resorted to questioning whether I am capable of understanding what you are saying. Who is trolling here, really?

[Ron Miel]

Anyway, I think it's a harsh rap to give to Roy. I think the Giant would support this conclusion (only based on his commentaries in the books and what that angel and Celia said about lawfulness and goodness).

Sorry if you felt that I was giving Roy a hard rap. I wasn't intending that.

My point is not to accuse Roy of doing something bad. It's just that it seems to me that Elan was the real hero of the hour. Roy was in danger, Elan saved him and almost died in the process.

It isn't that it's a negative action that scores against Roy. But it wasn't any act of heroism either.

[Ron Miel]

but the fact of the matter is you have yet to respond to me questioning the validity of your comments and have instead resorted to discrediting me.

Twaddle. You disagree with a point I made in a totally different thread, and decide to attack me for it in this one. And even then, you resort to total distortion of my original point.

I am not going to discuss it any further with you. You are clearly not interested in rational discussion, you just want to stir up trouble.


Who is trolling here, really?

You are.

I'm done talking to you.

[SmartAlec]

It's just that it seems to me that Elan was the real hero of the hour. Roy was in danger, Elan saved him and almost died in the process.

Elan was the hero of the hour? Let's break this down, moment by moment.

***

Elan: We're trapped. Let's go in here.

Roy: This is a closet. We were trapped before, but now you've backed us into a corner. Why?

Elan: I have a plan. (Disguise Self)

Roy: That won't work, because you've got it wrong.

Elan: I have another plan. (Belt of Gender-Changing)

Roy: That's not only potentially very dangerous, but needless. I can get us out of here without needing to mess with dangerous curses.

Elan: Ok - argh, I've been hurt!

Roy: Now you'll die, unless I mess with a dangerous curse. I could get myself out of here without it, but you'll be dead. Very well, I mess with a dangerous curse to get you to safety.

***

I don't see how Elan saves Roy. He unwittingly saves himself, perhaps.

[Uncle Festy]

Yeah, what he said.
Also, can we just accept that Roy knows what fights he can win better then we do? If Roy says he could win the fight, but it would take too long to get Elan to safety, can't we just accept his superior expertise on the subject? Please?

[The Boyce]

Twaddle. You disagree with a point I made in a totally different thread, and decide to attack me for it in this one. And even then, you resort to total distortion of my original point.

I am not going to discuss it any further with you. You are clearly not interested in rational discussion, you just want to stir up trouble.



You are.

I'm done talking to you.

And you sidestep his argument yet again. He is, in fact, being rational and logical in his arguments and refutations of you points. You have decided to ignore those and focus entirely on something unrelated to this thread.

[busterswd]

Twaddle. You disagree with a point I made in a totally different thread, and decide to attack me for it in this one. And even then, you resort to total distortion of my original point.

I am not going to discuss it any further with you. You are clearly not interested in rational discussion, you just want to stir up trouble.



You are.

I'm done talking to you.



You still have yet to refute me showing evidence that if Roy were on his own, he would've resorted to fighting ('with an improvised quarter staff") as opposed to mutilating his own genitalia. In addition, you haven't responded to my (and various other posters') argument that even if you inadvertently caused an event through a less than noble justification, that doesn't make your subsequent actions to rectify the ensuing events less heroic. Instead, you've resorted to questioning whether I am capable of understanding what you are saying.



I enjoy how you first completely ignore my initial argument, then again completely ignore when I bring up again how you haven't responded yet. But really, do you have something to refute:

#1: Roy himself saying "I'd rather fight my way out then try to make myself a woman," then changing his mind once he realized Elan was in danger.

#2: Other people arguing that causing something bad inadvertently doesn't detract from your subsequent actions to fix it?

[Roland St. Jude]

Sheriff of Moddingham: This thread is being locked because it has degraded into a back and forth two-poster sniping match. Please do not flame other posters and please do not carry your baggage from one thread to the next.