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ZerglingOne
2008-08-24, 01:51 AM
And I think I know the answer...No one ever does their math in these cases. Speaking from a strictly damage standpoint at this very moment, a +5 Greataxe (totally reasonable at level 20) wielding fighter with 22 base strength and a belt of ogre strength +6 MASSIVELY out-damages a same level spell caster against a single target. How you ask? Well consider this, the fighter gets 4 attacks, +20/+15/+10/+5, assuming weapon focus and greater focus are taken, that means +37/+32/+27/+22 with given equipment/stats. Those 4 attacks deal 1d12+5+15+4. So he could miss you say. Well, not really, since about the highest AC in the game is 42(great wyrm gold dragon), the only instance in which he would have to roll a 20 is on the last hit. So in most cases he will be doing 4d12+20+60+16. 96 free damage on any round, with 4-48 extra damage being the variance. The fighter can do this every single turn if he wishes to, and can score critical hits on enemies not immune to them. A fighter is only up against AC, where as a mage has to deal with spell resistance, concentration checks, god awful saving throw modifiers, evasion, and so many others. All of this doesn't take power attack into account, or the fact that a fighter's HP is going to dwarf a mage's of the same level. If you want to get into technicalities the damage range is 100-432(all crits & max damage about 1/3billion chance of happening) but for all purposes necessary the damage range is 100-144.

Contrast that to a 20th level sorcerer with 22 cha, a +6 cha cloak, casting meteor swarm (24d6), the damage variance is very wide, 24-144 as opposed to 100-144 making it inferior other than the fact that it can hit a wide area. Also, the reflex saving throw for that spell would be a 29, high, but not impossible to make, a high level rogue or paladin with decent gear for example, would scoff at making that save.

Fighters/barbs/rangers get a bad reputation that they don't deserve, sure they don't have the utility that rogues or many spellcasters have at higher levels, but spells like bull's strength and stoneskin were practically invented to bolster a fighter's utter awesomeness in combat. Just remember when your little spellcaster runs out of spells, there is still a fighter there on the front lines ready to smash someone's face in repeatedly.

Dhavaer
2008-08-24, 01:55 AM
It's that time again. :smallfrown:

In case I haven't been ninjaed: yes, spellcasters don't do well if they concentrate on dealing damage. That's why they shouldn't.

Nychta
2008-08-24, 01:56 AM
Spellcasters manipulate the whole battle. If they focus on damage, then yes, they do suck.

ghost_warlock
2008-08-24, 01:56 AM
It isn't a matter of damage. It's a matter of spellcasters using spells to ignore initiative checks, casting save-or-die spells with impossible saves, or just generally stopping time long enough to buff themselves to the point where they could easily one-shot even the barbarian with an unarmed attack while being completely impervious to the barbarian's attacks (via DR or whatnot).

"Wave your sharp stick if you wish, but know that I could re-write the laws of the cosmos so that sharp sticks don't even exist if I so chose"

Eldritch_Ent
2008-08-24, 01:57 AM
Well, see, that's just the problem- "Strictly from a damage standpoint" isn't the whole picture, and if you look at it just from there, you're missing some very big and important pieces. Among other things, Flight and the fact that if you get close enough to full-attack a dragon, said dragon has either charged, grappled, or full attacked *YOU*. And the problem is, a level 20 fighters is NOT as tough or as strong as an ancient gold wyrm.

In addition, when the casters run out of spells, a lot of the party's survivablity goes down. Good luck without Heals and buffs, sparky!

Whereas the Batman Wizard isn't throwing out Meteor Swarms, despite how badass they are. He's enervating you for 8 levels then polymorphing you into a toad. Or he's gating in a solar to take the hits for him. Or he's shivering touching you to drop your Dex to 0. And once he's done with hos encounters for the day, he retires to his magnificent mansion to sleep on a pile of riches while surrounded by beautiful (conjured) women.

In additon, 42 is not the highest AC in the game. In the MM1 Maybe, but players and monsters can get higher than that.

Malicte
2008-08-24, 02:09 AM
A couple of points:

1) Your fighter is HORRIBLY unoptimized for melee damage. If you want a character who does nothing but melee damage, try an ubercharger on for size. Lion Totem Barbarian, Frenzied Berserker, the whole deal. You're looking at 150+ a HIT (Minimum damage), easily. And yes, that's still 4 hits a round.

2) Even if you were to compare said fighter to a straight evoker wizard, who isn't playing their class at ALL like they should be, let's look at straight numbers. Your fighter there is doing somewhere in the 120-ish damage range to a single target at melee range. Take the spell Maw of Chaos, a decent evocation and not at all unreasonable for 20th level. That's 20d6 damage to an AREA, a round. 20-120 damage, to each target in the area. In addition, this goes on for 1/round a level, without the wizard's continued concentration. Also, there's a will save or be dazed, and stay in the area. ALSO, concentration checks (DC 25) to do anything in the area. I'd say that a ticking 20d6 each round added to the rest of a wizard's arsenal, even on a horribly unoptimized evoker, still trumps your melee fighter quite handily.

3) Meteor Swarm is bad.

(Sorry if I've been ninjaed on this, too)

Tempest Fennac
2008-08-24, 02:15 AM
Another problem is often getting full attacks without things like the Lion Totem Barbarian: Fly and teleortation spells can also get Wizards out of the way of any melee attackers.

Frosty
2008-08-24, 02:15 AM
With the right feats and metamagic, I can deal on average of over 200 damage per round to a target using ONE spell...and that is a fairly unoptimized blasting wizard. And that creature has to make 2 Fort saves or be Dazed/Stunned for the next round. Oh, and this spell has no save, and bypasses spell resistance.

Tempest Fennac
2008-08-24, 02:17 AM
How do you do that, Frosty? I'm sorry if I asked you this question before, but I forgot what you said.

Behold_the_Void
2008-08-24, 02:19 AM
As mentioned by others, your comparison is a bit off. See, the Fighter attacks, the Wizard casts something that instakills the target. And with the spells in his arsenal, the Wizard CAN do some kind of instakill about 12 times a day, easy, which is more than enough for a standard 4-encounter day. And that's while still having plenty of leftover utilities and other fun tricks.


How do you do that, Frosty? I'm sorry if I asked you this question before, but I forgot what you said.

Orb spells if I'm not mistaken.

Akimbo
2008-08-24, 02:20 AM
1) Because Wizard's cast Wail of the Banshee, or Stone to Flesh or Evard's Black Tentacles, or Solid Fog, or Irresistible Dance, and then they can freaking do two damage a round and no one cares.

2) Because a Cleric at level 20 can buy a +1 Flaming Shocking Icy Acidic Greatsword, then turn it into a +5 Flaming Shocking Icy Acidic Greatsword, then make it Holy, then cast Divine Power on themselves to get the same number of attacks and the +6 enhancement bonus for free, and then Cast Righteous Might and then attack with: +38/+33/+28/+23 and each of those attacks does 7d6+24 (+2d6 more if evil). And the Cleric can still take Power attack.

So yes, a Cleric can easily have a higher to hit, and do more damage, hardly using any spells, and not even using ones over level 6.

Of course if we are level 20, then he can use a Bead of Karma with his Ioun Stone and cast Holy Word and instantly no save paralyze two of the three CR 20 creatures in the MM (at once if he needed to). And then he could do 1 damage for all I care, because he has a minimum of ten rounds, and more likely 30-60 rounds to coup de grace every round, and each of those comes with a fort save or die.

And I still haven't even used a single level 8 or 9 spell.

Malicte
2008-08-24, 02:20 AM
Another point that was half made above: Spellcasters can do things like Fly, Teleport, turn Invisible, SEE invisibility, etc.

How does your fighter hit something for damage if he can't GET to it (it's flying) or can't SEE it (It's invisible or some equivalent effect)?

The fact is, your fighter can swing a greataxe for mediocre damage with four attacks. That requires a full attack action, however, meaning no more than a 5 foot step. I hope your enemy isn't moving. Any other situation, and he is woefully unprepared. Any other situation, a wizard just does it better. In fact, a wizard is a (FAR) better melee combatant than your fighter there, if he chose to pursue that route. Fighter is pretty much right there at the bottom tier of core classes, right beside the paladin and monk.

And let's not even go into CoDzilla.

arguskos
2008-08-24, 02:20 AM
If I recall, that's a twinned maximized empowered energy substituted (sonic) orb of fire. Or something like that. Anyhoo, it's cheapsauce.

On topic, yeah, martial characters can be blown into the stratosphere by a decent caster, and that's without trying. Hell, caster types get frikkin' WISH, something that, completely defeats any martial character, power level-wise.

-argus

Frosty
2008-08-24, 02:31 AM
If I recall, that's a twinned maximized empowered energy substituted (sonic) orb of fire. Or something like that. Anyhoo, it's cheapsauce.

On topic, yeah, martial characters can be blown into the stratosphere by a decent caster, and that's without trying. Hell, caster types get frikkin' WISH, something that, completely defeats any martial character, power level-wise.

-argus

I forgot if I throw Maximize in there. I'm sure I could if I want to use up a 9th level spell, but at the time of my build, I wasn't up to 9th level yet so I couldn't fit Maximize in there. But yes, orb of Fire. Use class features and metamagic feats to make metamagic free or nearly free, and then apply it your favorite no save, no SR spell. Hundreds of damage a round to one target.

arguskos
2008-08-24, 02:33 AM
I forgot if I throw Maximize in there. I'm sure I could if I want to use up a 9th level spell, but at the time of my build, I wasn't up to 9th level yet so I couldn't fit Maximize in there. But yes, orb of Fire. Use class features and metamagic feats to make metamagic free or nearly free, and then apply it your favorite no save, no SR spell. Hundreds of damage a round to one target.
Heh, I just use orb of force and a few metamagic rods of badassery. With a single -1 metamagic ability, empowered orb of whatever is a lv. 5 spell. Get a rod of maximize and a rod of twinned (If you can, if not, just get one. It's a good investment anyway) and go to town. :smallbiggrin:

-argus

Tempest Fennac
2008-08-24, 02:36 AM
Thanks for tbe explanation. Something that is amusing is how some people have accused feats like Combat Vigour and a feat which lets you Full Attacked while being grappled as overpowered (they aren't really too powerful due to CV needing Combat Focus, and the grapply feat is only available later on in the game).

Eldariel
2008-08-24, 02:36 AM
Ok, since everyone is doing this, a few things:
-Wizards aren't generally optimized for damage because that steals the last thing Fighters could do decently. Further, it's simply too much effort to deal a lot of damage, when you can just roll a single die and win instead (or maybe Dispel opponent's protections/items/whatever first, 'cause y'know you're a caster and can do it).

That said, you can build a Wizard that deals 1000 damage a turn without breaking a sweat. Or gives opponents 20 negative levels (that kills a level 20 character). With Touch Attacks. Just take Metamagic Cheapener-effects (Arcane Thesis, Practical Metamagic, Easy Metamagic, Incantatrix, etc.), apply a ton of things that increase spell effects with 0-1 level increases and toss a Quickened one and a normal one. So yes, while a Wizard focused on damage is really suboptimal compared to a generalist Wizard, a damage-focused Wizard is still rolling touch attacks, for more damage and from the range of infinity.

Also, a Wizard can teleport in, kill the opponent and teleport out before the target ever gets a turn. A Wizard with a few protection spells (Superior Invisibility, Ghostform, etc.) can do this without anyone knowing the target died of anything but a heart attack. And that's without even trying. So yea, here's what Wizard does:
-Scry target from anywhere (preferably their own demiplane where they're sure to not be disturbed).
-Cast a few buffs.
-Teleport next to the target.
-Use Moment of Prescience/Celerity/whatever to act first.
-Cast Maximized/Empowered/Whatever Enervation/Orb of Whatever/Maw of Chaos depending on the target (Orb of Force is pretty good - ranged touch attack without spell resistance, save or any energy resistance). Cast another one through Quicken Spell if need be. Use Time Stop if necessary to unload a barrage of bombs.
-Teleport away. If the target somehow survives and is close to harming the Wizard, Wizard's Contingency goes off Teleporting him away.

Risk to Wizard? None, unless the target is another Wizard/Sorcerer/Cleric/Druid/Archivist (full caster) with Anticipate Teleportations and all that. Risk to the target? Practically certain death. The Wizard could also lock the target in a bunch of Force Walls or similar, if he felt like it.


-A 20th level caster can have buffs up all day and be a better Fighter than a Fighter. For example, I Shapechange into Pit Fiend. Some Greater Mage Armor, Barkskin, Shield and such to the mix and I'll have an AC of 70+. I'll also have all the Pit Fiend's abilities (such as a bunch of At Will-powers). Few buff spells and the Pit Fiend will have an attack bonus to match the AC. Now, tell me of a Fighter that can have 70+ AC and +60 or more to hit. Tell me of a Fighter that can use Power Word: Stun, Unholy Aura, Mass Hold Monster, Greater Dispel Magic and so on At Will.

Tell me of a Fighter that can boast attack rolls that can hit an AC of 70. Tell me of a Fighter that can see through Superior Invisibility, Ghostform, Displacement, Greater Mirror Image, Simulacrum and so on. Tell me of a Fighter who doesn't die to Mordenkainen's Disjunction. Tell me of a Fighter whose equipment can't simply be Greater Dispel Magic > Shattered. Heck, even if the Fighter somehow managed to reach the Mage, roll a ton of 20s to succeed at hitting the right image, a target you can't see with AC bigger than your life, 50% miss chance and so on, the Mage would still just be an Astral Projection that Plane Shifted after you. If an Astrally Projected copy dies...nothing happens! The Wizard is still fine and well in his own body. So if the Wizard somehow fails, he can try again for as long as he's got Astral Projections remaining. Or he can rest and try again tomorrow, safe and sound in his own Magnificient Mansion.


-Your Great Wyrm Gold Dragon flies at the speed of 250'. Whatever makes you think your Fighter could even touch it? It flies way over twice faster than a Fighter can ever move and can breath at you from a distance, so why would it ever let you engage it (have you checked a Great Wyrm Gold Dragon's Intelligence? Yea, they are twice as smart as the smartest Humans that have walked this planet - they are not dumb enough to just walk up to you)? Also, it casts as a 17th level Sorcerer, which means that its real AC is closer to 60 than 40. Also, in melee, the Dragon is just gonna Power Attack you to death in one turn.


-Why would a highlevel caster ever run out of spells at an inconvenient location? Between their 30-something business spells, Wands, etc. they can keep going for aeons. Also, due to their mobility and ability to generate their own planes and change the flow of time, they can rest whenever. Also, they can cast spells on them that last the whole day and can be used to acquire powerful Spell-Likes at will. Also, they can Planar Bind/Gate/whatever a bunch of mighty outsiders to just do the adventuring for them when they get bored. Seriously, a highlevel caster lasts way longer than 24 hours.

Saph
2008-08-24, 06:04 AM
Mostly because people keep on using Level 20 as the baseline, as you're doing, despite the fact that the ratio of the number of D&D sessions played at level 1 to the number of D&D sessions played at level 20 is about 100:1.

If you play with core rules only and start all your games at level 20, then of course the fighters are going to be outmatched. But why are you starting at level 20 in the first place?

- Saph

Frownbear
2008-08-24, 06:07 AM
Mostly because people keep on using Level 20 as the baseline, as you're doing, despite the fact that the ratio of the number of D&D sessions played at level 1 to the number of D&D sessions played at level 20 is about 100:1.

If you play with core rules only and start all your games at level 20, then of course the fighters are going to be outmatched. But why are you starting at level 20 in the first place?

- Saph

It kicks in much much earlier than 20...

Saph
2008-08-24, 06:11 AM
It kicks in much much earlier than 20...

Yeah, but whenever people do these comparisons, they nearly always start, as the OP is doing, by saying, "Okay, so at level 20 . . .", so the following discussion turns around level 20 characters, as is happening in this thread. That's a big reason as to why.

The last few times we took polls, somewhere between 80% and 90% of the posters said their current games were somewhere between level 1 and 10. So if you're going to compare classes, doing it between those bounds makes a lot more sense.

- Saph

ZekeArgo
2008-08-24, 06:21 AM
Yeah, but whenever people do these comparisons, they nearly always start, as the OP is doing, by saying, "Okay, so at level 20 . . .", so the following discussion turns around level 20 characters, as is happening in this thread. That's a big reason as to why.

The last few times we took polls, somewhere between 80% and 90% of the posters said their current games were somewhere between level 1 and 10. So if you're going to compare classes, doing it between those bounds makes a lot more sense.

- Saph

Saph: the guy's initial post listed the damage output of a theoretical level 20 fighter vs a level 20 sorcerer. Responding to that has nothing to do with what your describing here.

Saph
2008-08-24, 06:29 AM
Saph: the guy's initial post listed the damage output of a theoretical level 20 fighter vs a level 20 sorcerer. Responding to that has nothing to do with what your describing here.

Yes it does. The title is "Why does everyone think . . ." and my answer was that people keep setting the baseline at level 20, where spellcasters inevitably show up everyone else. I'm responding to the OP's initial question, instead of to the damage output of level 20 characters (which I think is pretty much irrelevant to any normal game).

- Saph

ZekeArgo
2008-08-24, 06:35 AM
Yes it does. The title is "Why does everyone think . . ." and my answer was that people keep setting the baseline at level 20, where spellcasters inevitably show up everyone else. I'm responding to the OP's initial question, instead of to the damage output of level 20 characters (which I think is pretty much irrelevant to any normal game).

- Saph

Agreed, but he also stats what they can do at earlier levels. Even at level 5 a wizard/cleric/druid/sorcerer/bard will be able to contribute more and generally dish out more punishment than a melee class outside of certain circumstances (charge builds, tripper combos) and even then the main three (wiz/cler/dru) will easily come out on top for versatility and being able to overcome encounters in those cases.

In just core a Party consisting of a Cleric/Druid/Wizard/Whatever(one of the other classes, bard, sorcerer, or even rogue if you don't want to expend resources if your DM likes throwing out traps and locks) will do better than the "iconic" party of Fighter/Cleric/Rogue/Wizard.

Saph
2008-08-24, 06:43 AM
Agreed, but he also stats what they can do at earlier levels. Even at level 5 a wizard/cleric/druid/sorcerer/bard will be able to contribute more and generally dish out more punishment than a melee class outside of certain circumstances (charge builds, tripper combos) and even then the main three (wiz/cler/dru) will easily come out on top for versatility and being able to overcome encounters in those cases.

I've played lots of games at those levels, and I can say with a fair amount of certainty that this isn't true. I've seen level 5 melee characters show up the level 5 spellcasters plenty of times, and that's in core. Add in Tome of Battle, and the melee characters start laughing.

The level 5-10 range is fairly balanced between casters and meleers. Sure, if the spellcasters are using the absolute best picks and the meleers are totally unoptimised, the casters will look better. If it's the other way round, the meleers will look better. At these levels it comes mostly down to player skill.

- Saph

Eldariel
2008-08-24, 06:47 AM
If I wanted an optimized party for Core in a campaign where I expect traps I need to deal with, I'd go with Druid, Druid, Wizard, Rogue 1/Wizard. Rogue 1/Wizard is gonna use the insane Int-modifiers to buy what you need crossclass (probably just Disable Device, Search and maybe Hide/Move Silently/Sleight of Hand; others can handle facing and Knock opens doors). On level 1, the party is golden with 2 very able meleers (the animal companions) and two save-or-die machines. Level 3 onwards the Wizards really pick off and the Druids themselves become more than just support around level 5-6. After that it's smooth sailing.

On first levels, the Rogue/Wizard will leave something to desire, but as a Longbow Archer (Gray Elf, obv) it should be relatively competent on the first level, using Hide and Move Silently for Sneak Attacks (and thanks to the huge Int, it'll be better at taking care of locks than a normal Rogue - also, on first level it can easily afford the Open Lock-ranks to get you by until you can afford Wand of Open Lock...I mean Knock). And it's the best kind of skillmonkey you can have without splats (Rogue is the only class with Trapfinding...). In Core, Clerics aren't just that good since one dimension of their power, the Turn Undead, is pretty much disabled with Core-only feats. Therefore I feel two Druids will do better; you'll just need to prepare lots of Cure Light Wounds until you can acquire a Wand. The extra character will really go a long way towards keeping a level 1 party alive, especially since if they die, it isn't the end of the world.

kamikasei
2008-08-24, 07:19 AM
And I think I know the answer...No one ever does their math in these cases.

Don't you think this is a rather insulting way to start a discussion? Not "why does everyone say this" and "please tell me", but "why does everyone think this" and "because you're fools?"

There are [I]any number of discussions of this topic on this board. Before posting your argument it would have been trivial to check your assumptions and make sure you weren't attacking a straw man, rather than assuming none of the people who disagreed with you knew what they were talking about.

Tokiko Mima
2008-08-24, 07:27 AM
I always tell players that when starting a melee Fighter at level twenty, assume you'll be attacked by a level 20 wizard who will win initative and cast Time Stop + Cloudkill + Force Cage then sit and laugh as you slowly die. Not every wizard will use that combo of course, but if you can't at least beat that you have no chance at killing almost any competent wizard. All the damage in the world does nothing against a wall of force and the smart wizard never goes toe to toe with a melee combatant.

Eldariel
2008-08-24, 07:29 AM
the smart wizard never goes toe to toe with a melee combatant.

And since all high level Wizards have an Int of at least 19 (to cast 9th level spells), there's no such thing as a dumb Wizard. Even the dumbest Wizard with real power is smarter than pretty much the smartest Fighters around.

Tehnar
2008-08-24, 08:01 AM
Just want to share with you something that happened in my last game:

the group involves: a fighter, a barbarian, a rogue and a druid. The adventure is the classic kill the evil wizard in his tower, and they are all 8th level. The wizard being of 11th lvl of experience.

After getting through the outer wards undetected, our party of adventurers breaks into the said tower. After dealing with ogre guards, shadows, flesh golems,undead swarms, and some traps very quietly they nevertheless manage to alarm the wizard half a minute before they crash into the main chamber.

The party's resources have thinned out, the druid is mostly out of spells, most of the potions and scrolls are gone and while all of them are healthy they are not at 100%.

Now the wizard has most of his spells, placed a mirage arcana in his main chamber creating false walls and places to hide. Along with a couple of permanent walls of fire he is thinking that its a good defensive position. Adding in buffs such as mage armor, shield, mirror image, blur, stoneskin and invisibility he is confident that the would be adventurers are doomed.

It all starts well for the wizard, for the party blindly stumbles through the hallucinary terrain, get burned on on real wall of fire (there are some illusionary ones to add to the confusion) and finally manage to get grouped in range for his fear spell. All works well cause the rogue, druid and fighter fail their saves, but the barbarian is unaffected. He charges the dark wizard but strikes the image. The rest of the party runs wildly in fear, some walking through real walls of fire. Haha the wizard thinks for he has another ace in his sleeve for that pesky barbarian. He tries to ghoul touch the barbarian, misses at first, but while the barbarian is fighting images he hits him the second time, and the barbarian is paralyzed.

Now the wizard thinks he is victorious, for the entire party has been disabled, and the barbarian is helpless so the wizard will poke him in the eye with a dagger, which should kill the primitive cretin. For how tough could a barbarians eye be? Apparently it is made of stone, for 4 attempts to coup de grace the smelly hulk have failed miserably. As the wizard is about to try his 5th time, the magic holding the barbarian wears off and with a yell of: SMALL MAN NOT KNOW HOW TO POKE PEOPLE!! ME SHOW YAH!! proceeds to bash the wizard a couple of times. Both blows hit the wizard, hurting him badly, while he is wondering is the pen really mightier then the greatsword.

Panicking, the wizard manages to get a improved invisibility spell off, but the barbarians supreme hearing manages to pinpoint the wizards location and proceeds with more facebashing. He manages to vampiric touch the barbarian, but such a manifestation of negative energy barely harms the big brute. After a few more hits from the barbarian, the wizard dimension doors to a different part of the chamber to drink some potions. Meanwhile after witnessing the barbarians fight the rest of the party is emboldened and soon the fear spell wears off. The wizard then makes his reappearence, while still invisible, proceeds to harrass the party with waves of fatigue, enervation, ray of fatigue, phantasmal killer and with the ocassional blast from his wand of lesser orb of electricity (5th level). However the party is no slouch as well and uses intelligent tactics to corner the invisible wizard. The wizards spells, even though they hinder the party, are mostly ineffective, the enervation and ray of fatigue misses and the barbarian yet again makes the save against the phantasmal killer. After some more hide and seek, and a useless mislead spell (and with the barbarian and rogue with good listen checks), the fighters trip, the rogues bag of flour, the wizard falls to the barbarians critical.

DeathQuaker
2008-08-24, 08:09 AM
When people pit characters one on one in arena style combat with few restrictions (like terrain, etc.), or they just post a bunch of math or theoretical situations that happen to be ideal for a given character.... gosh, suddenly the given class they want to defend looks really strong.

An actual well-designed adventure for D&D, which is based on a party of people with different skills cooperating with each other, will show that in most cases everyone has something to contribute (all the more so with a better GM)---and that in a lot of cases, what "theoretically" makes a character look awesome can often be actually useless in game.

For just an example, take the "fly spell makes casters pwn" argument----in a typical D&D game you're going to be spending at least some if not a lot of time walking down a 10x10 corridor underground. Fly's just going to get you whapping yourself into the gelatinous cube at the end of the hallway that much faster (wizards and spot checks? Not so much), and will be all but useless in combat movement.

Ultimately teamwork and people putting their skills each to a good use, in and OUT OF combat, shows everyone can hold their own.

Guyinthestreet
2008-08-24, 08:10 AM
If I recall, that's a twinned maximized empowered energy substituted (sonic) orb of fire. Or something like that. Anyhoo, it's cheapsauce.

On topic, yeah, martial characters can be blown into the stratosphere by a decent caster, and that's without trying. Hell, caster types get frikkin' WISH, something that, completely defeats any martial character, power level-wise.

-argus

Hmm.....Nailed To The Sky. That spell really sticks in your memory (as a description, not an actual spell that I/you can cast).

Eldariel
2008-08-24, 08:14 AM
The Wizard is level 11. Why didn't he Teleport away when things turned bad? Also, why not use a Scythe for Coup De Grace? Not only is it much more stylish (I mean, there's nothing like saying "Hello, I'm the Reaper."), but those aren't gonna fail. Minimum of DC 18 Fort, but likely DC 30 (and with 8 dice, the standard deviation is rather small). Heck, why would the Wizard do it himself? Don't Wizards usually keep summons around just for that purpose?

Guyinthestreet
2008-08-24, 08:20 AM
The wizard being of 11th lvl of experience.


No Confusion? No Dominate Person (for the guy with the lowest Will Save)? No Symbol of Sleep? No Summon Monster V or something like that?

Boy, that wizard's not very good for someone with 11 levels of experience. A few illusions + bottomless chasms, a Fire Shield, a Teleport (out of the tower) if he's really in trouble......

Sky's the limit, but he chose to fight to the death.

I salute the wizard for his courage and his less-than-stellar intelligence.

Edit: ..........Someone got here before me.

Prophaniti
2008-08-24, 08:32 AM
I agree with Saph here. First, caster uberness doesn't really set in until a bit after level 10. Before that, it's not difficult at all for a well-built melee class to outshine them, though they still maintain usefulness through utility spells.

Second, most everyone when talking about broken wizards uses the really high-level stuff with cheese liberally applied. There are exceptions, of course, but most of these "wizard simply does X" involve a lot of assumed facts. Especially the whole "teleport in and kill the boss, then teleport out". It most certainly assumes, among other things, that the big bad is not as crafty as you, and will have no plans for such an event.

I especially want to poke a hole in what someone said earlier, about the fighter being so vulnerable to Mordenkainen's Disjunction, or Greater Dispel. The wizard is just as vulnerable, if not moreso, especially to Ani-magic fields. Since the game is set up to assume characters of certain levels have access to appropriate magic items (WBL) then it is perfectly reasonable to assume the fighter has a few toys to mimic the abilities of the wizard, or some specifically designed to disable wizards. I mean, we're already assuming that the wizard has magic items (rods of metamagic), so why shouldn't the fighter?

Bottom line: Yes, there is a great deal of brokeness about casters, at least at high levels. IMO this is entirely due to poorly made and tested spells, and loopholes that bypass the normal shortcomings of spells, such as saves and SR. Also, fighter by RAW does kinda suck. Bonus feats do not make up for no class features at all, even if you're really careful about picking the right ones, which most people aren't.

Grab yourself a decent fighter fix (and a monk one, while your there), cut some of the cheese and poor spell design out, and you've got yourself balanced classes in 3.5, if that's what your after. Isn't all that hard to do, either. Still, I'd like to point out once again that I've yet to experience this ethereal wizard dominance, even in campaigns where we used unmodified RAW. I do see the theoretical possibility, but I've yet to see it actually happen.

From what I've seen it requires A) unfettered access to cheese and loopholes, and a DM who's not going to shut any of them down. And B) a seriously unfriendly attitude and desire to make the session miserable for everyone involved but you, coupled with a tolerance for bookwork and ruleslawyering bordering on the supernatural. I guess the reason I haven't seen it could be that these things things have never all been present in one of my groups.

RebelRogue
2008-08-24, 08:32 AM
I've been wanting to ask the same question for some time! I do not disagree that spellcasters are generally more powerful and versatile than martial classes (at least at some power levels), but I'm pretty sick of the way some people tend to exaggerate this. In my experience, it's simply not as drastic as it's made out to be! Also, many (though not all) of the arguments regarding caster pwnage requires lots of splatbooks and/or assumes you have plenty of time to cast spells. The common assumption that everything happens at level 20 is out of touch with the reality of most games too.

Edit: excellent post Prophaniti.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-08-24, 08:38 AM
Druid, that's why. Compare a Fighter at level 1 to a Druid's animal companion. They're nearly equal. These threads always go to "Wizard does X", but a well-built Druid is so far beyond a Fighter at the Fighter's job it's humiliating.

Saph
2008-08-24, 08:46 AM
No Confusion? No Dominate Person (for the guy with the lowest Will Save)? No Symbol of Sleep? No Summon Monster V or something like that?

Boy, that wizard's not very good for someone with 11 levels of experience. A few illusions + bottomless chasms, a Fire Shield, a Teleport (out of the tower) if he's really in trouble......

It's easy to say with hindsight "well, the class I think's strongest should have won, so it must have been the fault of the guy playing it." But that misses quite a few things - not least, how easy a class is to play.

I've seen a lot of people talk about how unstoppable Wizards are supposed to be, even at level 3 or 4 or 5. I've yet to game with someone who can actually put it into practice.

- Saph

shadow_archmagi
2008-08-24, 08:49 AM
I cast fly, windwall, and then just for fun, Blind. Then maybe Greater Invisibility if I'm in the mood for it.

You hit me how many times again?

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-08-24, 08:59 AM
It's easy to say with hindsight "well, the class I think's strongest should have won, so it must have been the fault of the guy playing it." But that misses quite a few things - not least, how easy a class is to play.

I've seen a lot of people talk about how unstoppable Wizards are supposed to be, even at level 3 or 4 or 5. I've yet to game with someone who can actually put it into practice.

- SaphI agree that Wizards aren't as uber as most people assume, but I view them as the weakest core caster. Again, don't look at the Wizard v. Fighter, look at the Druid's pet. It's a class feature that's on the level of an entire class at first level. Don't pretend 3.x is balanced, even remotely.

RebelRogue
2008-08-24, 09:02 AM
I cast fly, windwall, and then just for fun, Blind. Then maybe Greater Invisibility if I'm in the mood for it.You do realize that Wind Walls are vertical, right?

Saph
2008-08-24, 09:07 AM
I agree that Wizards aren't as uber as most people assume, but I view them as the weakest core caster. Again, don't look at the Wizard v. Fighter, look at the Druid's pet. It's a class feature that's on the level of an entire class at first level. Don't pretend 3.x is balanced, even remotely.

Oh, I'd never try and defend a Druid being even remotely balanced. But everyone always picks Wizards for some reason. :)

- Saph

Morty
2008-08-24, 09:11 AM
Oh, I'd never try and defend a Druid being even remotely balanced. But everyone always picks Wizards for some reason. :)

- Saph

That's because there were no Being Superman: Logic Ninja's Guide to Druids.

Eldariel
2008-08-24, 09:14 AM
Oh, I'd never try and defend a Druid being even remotely balanced. But everyone always picks Wizards for some reason. :)

- Saph

It's the Wizard Spells. People like Wizards since it has the most potential. The further you go, the stronger Wizard becomes. But Wizard is the ultimate example of "start low, grow strong". On first levels, they're about on par with melee classes, and it takes about 7-9 levels before they really gain the capability to adventure alone. I mean, obviously Wizards have much less HP than Druids, they lack the "secondary character" (unless they take Improved Familiar), and they rely on their magic for defenses as well as offense. Once they have enough magic to do both competently, they have the potential to be nuts.

Of course, unless you specifically seek to be nuts, a Wizard won't be - they're the class with the most "trap" spells out of all of the Core classes. I mean, before Logic Ninja's Guide, many Wizards didn't even know they could be contributing more than a Fireball per turn. So Wizard is probably the most reliant on the player out of all classes since not only does he need to choose feats and level-up spells smart, he also needs to prepare spells smart lest he finds himself in a position he's not prepared.

Early on, playing a Wizard solidly is quite easy (Grease works against anything, Color Spray solves few encounters and one Sleep is good to keep prepared), but once the levels come, the overwhelming number of slots and spells begins to be very hard to utilize optimally. Still, when used intelligently, the Wizard's magic does have the capability to solve everything.

The Rose Dragon
2008-08-24, 09:15 AM
Or better yet: Being Presence: Someone's Guide to Being Archivist.

Eldariel
2008-08-24, 09:16 AM
I think Archivists actually really need a guide, since the class is very far from trivial to utilize decently.

The Glyphstone
2008-08-24, 09:16 AM
That's because there were no Being Superman: Logic Ninja's Guide to Druids.

Wouldn't it be more like Being Dr. Manhattan: Logic Ninja's Guide to Druids? The whole being in two places at once (animal companion) and all that, after all.

Starbuck_II
2008-08-24, 09:18 AM
I always tell players that when starting a melee Fighter at level twenty, assume you'll be attacked by a level 20 wizard who will win initative and cast Time Stop + Cloudkill + Force Cage then sit and laugh as you slowly die. Not every wizard will use that combo of course, but if you can't at least beat that you have no chance at killing almost any competent wizard. All the damage in the world does nothing against a wall of force and the smart wizard never goes toe to toe with a melee combatant.

Wait, people sometimes don't buy a Necklace with Con +X/Na +X/Adaptation on it?
I thought that it was a real good deal. Sure, it cost more than Con +X or NA +X, but boy is it worth it.

And the Fighter could wear a stovepipe hat to block Force cage.

Morty
2008-08-24, 09:19 AM
Wouldn't it be more like Being Dr. Manhattan: Logic Ninja's Guide to Druids? The whole being in two places at once (animal companion) and all that, after all.

Maybe, I've never heard of Dr. Manhattan. My knowledge of comicbook superheroes ends at Batman, Superman and Spiderman.:smalltongue:

Arbitrarity
2008-08-24, 09:20 AM
Because no one reads Magic Item Compendium, and it's otherwise not well RAW supported.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-08-24, 09:20 AM
Being J'on J'onzz: LogicNinja's Guide to Druids. No real weakness, shapeshifting, and in charge of getting a large number of people to the battlefield.

Rayzin
2008-08-24, 09:35 AM
I've played a fighter before, and i stacked up on items to deal with the lack of magic. I cant out magic a sorcerer, but at least i can lessen the damage or counter some of it. Besides if the Fighter gets up to you your screwed, doing such a massive amount of damage you cant concentrate.

Hawriel
2008-08-24, 10:17 AM
What I love best about these fighter suck threads is that no one ever lets the fighter do any thing. Fighters are never given equipment appropriat for a level 20 character. They alwasy stand still in an open field 100 yards away from the magic user. The fighter always fails a save, even fort saves. The fighter never gets an AOO when the wizard casts a spell in a threatened square.

Wizards always eather have all there most powerful buff spell on all the time, or they cast them all at once in one round. Celerity never has the daze effect on the caster. The wizard never has to make a consintration check if some one actualy lets the fighter hit. The wizard seems to always know every spell ever published by WOTC, and has them memorized. Also the wizards familier is never in danger.

Gavin Sage
2008-08-24, 10:21 AM
I always tell players that when starting a melee Fighter at level twenty, assume you'll be attacked by a level 20 wizard who will win initative and cast Time Stop + Cloudkill + Force Cage then sit and laugh as you slowly die. Not every wizard will use that combo of course, but if you can't at least beat that you have no chance at killing almost any competent wizard. All the damage in the world does nothing against a wall of force and the smart wizard never goes toe to toe with a melee combatant.

This doesn't work that well because Cloudkill moves thus becomes very survivable. It moves, you move out of it. Fighter makes a Fort save and they are taking a maximum of 2 Con damage. which at say level 15 works out to 15 damage and a -1 on your best save anyways. Even full Con damage, well that 30 at level 15 which is survivable. And just carry a few Lesser Restoration or Neutralize Poison potions with you anyways.

The real problem in this is of course the Forcecage, which is unbalanced by providing no real save. Alongside that standard action spells are too hard to disrupt the casting of in general. Its got a material component but whether this is a real bar... I think not strictly. But get a teleporting item if every mage and their brother is throwing around walls, cages, and etc around often.

I'd like to note also if Time Stop is in the equation then there should be better things to do to someone inside a Forcecage then Cloudkill. Time Stop only magnifies the holes in the casting system to begin with.

The Glyphstone
2008-08-24, 10:28 AM
What I love best about these fighter suck threads is that no one ever lets the fighter do any thing. Fighters are never given equipment appropriat for a level 20 character. They alwasy stand still in an open field 100 yards away from the magic user. The fighter always fails a save, even fort saves. The fighter never gets an AOO when the wizard casts a spell in a threatened square.

Wizards always eather have all there most powerful buff spell on all the time, or they cast them all at once in one round. Celerity never has the daze effect on the caster. The wizard never has to make a consintration check if some one actualy lets the fighter hit. The wizard seems to always know every spell ever published by WOTC, and has them memorized. Also the wizards familier is never in danger.


Except in the actual test battles we do...there was a whole set of them a while back, and the Fighter got stomped as normal despite having a full 760,000GP to spend as any 20th level would, and knowing he was fighting a wizard ahead of time.

The two combatants start split (usually 100ft or so) because otherwise the Fighter has no chance, because the wizard bombards him with spell from hundred and hundreds of feet away...even if they started in melee range, the wizard would just cast Quickened Teleport to retreat. The fighter always fails his saves because it's absurdly, indescribably and ridiculously easy for a Wizard to pump his Save DC's beyond saveability except on natural 20's..and sometimes not even then if he can force a re-roll. The fighter never gets an AoO because the Wizard is casting from way outside his reach. The Wizard does his buffing in one round under the effects of a Maximized, sometimes Extended Time Stop. He does take the Daze effects of Celerity, but it's during one of those 5-10 Time Stop rounds where it's irrelevant. The Wizard never gets hit in melee because of said defenses, and the fact that a simple Phantom Steed spell makes him basically immune to melee from superior flying speed.

The "Shrodinger's Wizard" effect is a bit prevalent, true, but even in the actual rolled battles, the Wizard still won by choosing a simple array of utility spells that would work against any enemy. The Familiar is never in danger because it's either (A) inside the wizard's space and thus has total cover against all attacks, or (B) traded for something useful via Alternate Class Features if non-core.



This doesn't work that well because Cloudkill moves thus becomes very survivable. It moves, you move out of it. Fighter makes a Fort save and they are taking a maximum of 2 Con damage. which at say level 15 works out to 15 damage and a -1 on your best save anyways. Even full Con damage, well that 30 at level 15 which is survivable. And just carry a few Lesser Restoration or Neutralize Poison potions with you anyways.


Cloudkill can't move through solid walls (of Force). The trick works by casting Cloudkill first (under Time stop), then casting Forcecage in its 10x10 windowless box form, giving the Cloudkill nowhere to go. It's worthless in many cases (Enemies bigger than Large, enemies with Adaptation necklaces, ENemies with Rods of Cancellation), but that's how it's supposed to work. I think a Dimensional Lock spell is usually mixed in to stop Teleport shenanigans.

Akimbo
2008-08-24, 10:49 AM
Level 1: Wizard casts AoE everyone dies spell.

Level 3: Wizard casts AoE everyone is trapped spell, even on a successful save.

Level 5: Wizard completes trifecta by targeting Fort and taking away all Standard actions, but still leaving them in easy range of dieing.

Level 1: Druid has pet to attack things, also can AoE stun everyone, or Entangle them.

Level 3: Pet still relatively useful, Add in AoE Paralyze

Level 5: Pet is now better then Fighter. Also Druid Wildshapes. And casts AoE lose spells. And, is awesome.


It's easy to say with hindsight "well, the class I think's strongest should have won, so it must have been the fault of the guy playing it." But that misses quite a few things - not least, how easy a class is to play.

I've seen a lot of people talk about how unstoppable Wizards are supposed to be, even at level 3 or 4 or 5. I've yet to game with someone who can actually put it into practice.

1) It's easy to say that he should have cast Phantasmal Killer on the Rogue not the guy with the highest Fort save and a better Will save too.

2) It's easy to say he should have cast something above 3rd level in the first 10 rounds of combat since he had access to 6th level spells.

3) It's easy to say that he should have coup de graced with a Scythe instead of a dagger, and that making four DC 30-40 saves in a row is kinda hard.

4) It's really easy to see by the battle report that he could have played a lot smarter without even changing prepared spells.

5) You are welcome to game with me anytime.

Gavin Sage
2008-08-24, 11:20 AM
Cloudkill can't move through solid walls (of Force). The trick works by casting Cloudkill first (under Time stop), then casting Forcecage in its 10x10 windowless box form, giving the Cloudkill nowhere to go. It's worthless in many cases (Enemies bigger than Large, enemies with Adaptation necklaces, ENemies with Rods of Cancellation), but that's how it's supposed to work. I think a Dimensional Lock spell is usually mixed in to stop Teleport shenanigans.

Thought of this already.

Well quite aside from the permeablity question (Does a Forcecage kill over time by asphixiation? Since it doesn't say that presumably it doesn't block air thus not gases) this is still not relevant because gases are very compressable. The cloud simply pushes itself into a higher pressure gas at one end of the cube. Fighter moves into free space and we are done. Cloudkill doesn't change its area in a corridor afterall, so yes it works that way.

And this is assuming there isn't a reason to capture all the party in a forcecage thus needing the bigger version. It would kinda suck if you catch the fighter only to have the rest of the party charge you.

And on Dimension Lock well... put that up too and yeah its a problem, but that's giving a Fighter two completely different magic angles to have to counter, which reiterates the broken cheese of Forcecage to begin with more then anything wrong with the Fighter. It has no save or defense, anything like that in D&D is begging to be abused royally. Time Stop simply magnifies this, but at that level the Rod of Cancellation is perfectly fine to bring out.

In anycase I will stand by Cloudkill being hardly the killer part of the combo. Which was mostly my point, since people think its some uber-bad spell when its not. Forcecage however is broken since once you have a no-save confinement of an enemy its just a matter of time for a mage.

Tehnar
2008-08-24, 11:33 AM
No Confusion? No Dominate Person (for the guy with the lowest Will Save)? No Symbol of Sleep? No Summon Monster V or something like that?

Boy, that wizard's not very good for someone with 11 levels of experience. A few illusions + bottomless chasms, a Fire Shield, a Teleport (out of the tower) if he's really in trouble......

Sky's the limit, but he chose to fight to the death.

I salute the wizard for his courage and his less-than-stellar intelligence.

Edit: ..........Someone got here before me.

The said wizard in question is a NPC at the end of the adventure, not a metagame invention of mine designed for utter destruction of the said party.
He is just a wizard who likes illusion and necromancy spells, memorizes something every morning, and burns a few spells on research.

And I have a hard time seeing scythe wielding wizards.

As for teleporting away, well he didn't have that spell memorised because I didn't want him to get away. As the players made way through his tower they discovered some really nasty experiments he was involved in including but not limited [for mature audiences only]to:

abducting women, raping them until they got pregnant, waiting 9 months, cutting away the living fetus from their bodies, using the said fetus in a ritual to gain immortality, and using the female corpse in the creation of flesh golems

I think after the players see all that, you have to give them a shot at killing the bastard.

Prophaniti
2008-08-24, 11:34 AM
Well quite aside from the permeablity question (Does a Forcecage kill over time by asphixiation? Since it doesn't say that presumably it doesn't block air thus not gases) this is still not relevant because gases are very compressable. The cloud simply pushes itself into a higher pressure gas at one end of the cube. Fighter moves into free space and we are done. Cloudkill doesn't change its area in a corridor afterall, so yes it works that way.
Dragging real-world physics in is going to cause a load of problems... but, on this one specifically: I agree about the permeability, since the spell does not say it stops air (I think), it should be assumed it doesn't, and thus the cloud would move through it freely. If it did stop it though... the cloud would not compress itself. Sure, gases are easy to compress, but they naturally expand to fill their containers, when left to their own devices. It takes an external force to compress them.

kamikasei
2008-08-24, 11:37 AM
The said wizard in question is a NPC at the end of the adventure, not a metagame invention of mine designed for utter destruction of the said party.
...
As for teleporting away, well he didn't have that spell memorised because I didn't want him to get away.

It would be too metagamey for the wizard (did he know the attack was coming or were the defences the party fought through long-term things?) to attack lethally when his life is in danger, but it's not too metagamey for you to decide a (necessarily highly intelligent) wizard wouldn't have a spell ready to let him escape, just because you don't want him to escape?

Akimbo
2008-08-24, 11:43 AM
The said wizard in question is a NPC at the end of the adventure, not a metagame invention of mine designed for utter destruction of the said party.
He is just a wizard who likes illusion and necromancy spells, memorizes something every morning, and burns a few spells on research.

And I have a hard time seeing scythe wielding wizards.

And I don't care. The point is that even if he only had 16 Int, and was just generally the most incompetent and themed Wizard ever, he still should have coup de graced with a better weapon, cast Phantasmal Killer on the Rogue, and just generally used higher level spells and sucked less.

Hell if he can get a Wizard and a Cleric to fail a save against fear, and a Raging Barbarian to fail a save against Ghoul Touch, the guy clearly had Int 24 at least. So he should have cast something that didn't require a melee touch attack. Or hell, didn't require a ranged one since his Dex was apparently 4 (or was he just aiming every single touch spell at the rogue for some dumb reason?)

Hell a Necro/Illusion focused Wizard is the exact one that should be carrying around a Scythe.

ShneekeyTheLost
2008-08-24, 11:49 AM
It's easy to say with hindsight "well, the class I think's strongest should have won, so it must have been the fault of the guy playing it." But that misses quite a few things - not least, how easy a class is to play.

I've seen a lot of people talk about how unstoppable Wizards are supposed to be, even at level 3 or 4 or 5. I've yet to game with someone who can actually put it into practice.

- Saph

A level 1 Wizard can kill a level 1 Fighter almost every time. Sleep. CDG. Next.

A level 5 Wizard can kill a level 5 Fighter. Wizard uses Fly + Wind Wall and the Fighter really has no way of hurting him.

A level 10 Wizard will kill a level 10 Fighter. Above + Black Tentacles + Cloudkill.

A level 15 Wizard will kill a level 15 Fighter, using the exact same tactic, although he will now be able to Forcecage the Fighter instead of Black Tentacles to keep him in place.

A level 20 Wizard can kill most anything, much less a 20 Fighter.

It doesn't matter what level they are, the problem is that the Wizard has so many ways of making himself invulnerable to what the Fighter is doing and so many ways of making the Fighter die without using raw blasting that the Fighter really has no chance of winning, barring extreme luck.

SparkMandriller
2008-08-24, 11:54 AM
I don't see the point of announcing that wizards who are deliberately played below full strength aren't awesome. I mean, yes, if someone is played badly they won't do well. And? It's not like anyone was claiming that wizards are awesome no matter what they do.

Flickerdart
2008-08-24, 12:03 PM
I don't see the point of announcing that wizards who are deliberately played below full strength aren't awesome. I mean, yes, if someone is played badly they won't do well. And? It's not like anyone was claiming that wizards are awesome no matter what they do.
That's why it's fun to play an apathetic wizard. You could be the most powerful guy ever, but spend no time in the spotlight, instead bringing an end to dragged out battles and generally making it more fun for everyone.

Gorbash
2008-08-24, 12:09 PM
Now the wizard thinks he is victorious, for the entire party has been disabled, and the barbarian is helpless so the wizard will poke him in the eye with a dagger, which should kill the primitive cretin. For how tough could a barbarians eye be? Apparently it is made of stone, for 4 attempts to coup de grace the smelly hulk have failed miserably. As the wizard is about to try his 5th time, the magic holding the barbarian wears off and with a yell of: SMALL MAN NOT KNOW HOW TO POKE PEOPLE!! ME SHOW YAH!! proceeds to bash the wizard a couple of times. Both blows hit the wizard, hurting him badly, while he is wondering is the pen really mightier then the greatsword.

Panicking, the wizard manages to get a improved invisibility spell off, but the barbarians supreme hearing manages to pinpoint the wizards location and proceeds with more facebashing. He manages to vampiric touch the barbarian, but such a manifestation of negative energy barely harms the big brute. After a few more hits from the barbarian, the wizard dimension doors to a different part of the chamber to drink some potions. Meanwhile after witnessing the barbarians fight the rest of the party is emboldened and soon the fear spell wears off. The wizard then makes his reappearence, while still invisible, proceeds to harrass the party with waves of fatigue, enervation, ray of fatigue, phantasmal killer and with the ocassional blast from his wand of lesser orb of electricity (5th level). However the party is no slouch as well and uses intelligent tactics to corner the invisible wizard. The wizards spells, even though they hinder the party, are mostly ineffective, the enervation and ray of fatigue misses and the barbarian yet again makes the save against the phantasmal killer. After some more hide and seek, and a useless mislead spell (and with the barbarian and rogue with good listen checks), the fighters trip, the rogues bag of flour, the wizard falls to the barbarians critical.

Problem with this scenario is this Wizard doesn't have any ranks in Knowledge (Tactics).

First of all, how did the Barbarian PINPOINT the location of invisible wizard (I don't know if even there are rules for pinpointing with listen), thus allowing him to attack in which case wizard would still have the benefits of 50% chance. And if he had 5 rounds to prepare for combat, I have no idea how the barbarian hit him even once.

You tried to target a character with incredibly high fort (Barbarian) with Phantasmal Killer (a very mediocre spell requiring 2 saveS) and expected it to work? TWICE? 5 rounds of cloudkill instead of CDG would work so much better.

I mean, if


However the party is no slouch as well and uses intelligent tactics to corner the invisible wizard

Why didn't you also?

Saph
2008-08-24, 12:20 PM
A level 1 Wizard can kill a level 1 Fighter almost every time. Sleep. CDG. Next.

Like I said:


I've seen a lot of people talk about how unstoppable Wizards are supposed to be, even at level 3 or 4 or 5. I've yet to game with someone who can actually put it into practice.

Case in point.

You don't see the problem in your above claim? Hint: It involves casting times. (Oh, and initiative, and knowing what you're going to be fighting, but those are obvious.)

- Saph

Tehnar
2008-08-24, 12:23 PM
And I don't care. The point is that even if he only had 16 Int, and was just generally the most incompetent and themed Wizard ever, he still should have coup de graced with a better weapon, cast Phantasmal Killer on the Rogue, and just generally used higher level spells and sucked less.

Hell if he can get a Wizard and a Cleric to fail a save against fear, and a Raging Barbarian to fail a save against Ghoul Touch, the guy clearly had Int 24 at least. So he should have cast something that didn't require a melee touch attack. Or hell, didn't require a ranged one since his Dex was apparently 4 (or was he just aiming every single touch spell at the rogue for some dumb reason?)

Hell a Necro/Illusion focused Wizard is the exact one that should be carrying around a Scythe.


I'm sorry, but I don't think I have to justify my choice that my NPC carries a weapon he is proficient in, rather then a very silly one for a wizard to have (when pray tell did you read, hear or see, in books or movies of wizards with scythes).

In real games bad rolls happen. As do the good rolls. If the barbarian rolls a 1 on his saving throw it doesn't matter if he has a +666 on his fort save, he will still fail. And sometimes he hits the right image, makes the blur percentage dice, and criticaly hits the mage.

Could have the wizard been played better? Could he have chosen better spells? Could he have carried a better weapon? Of course he could, given hindsight. But in a REAL game, characters and players sometimes do crazy, stupid, original things that make the game fun, at least for me.



It would be too metagamey for the wizard (did he know the attack was coming or were the defences the party fought through long-term things?) to attack lethally when his life is in danger, but it's not too metagamey for you to decide a (necessarily highly intelligent) wizard wouldn't have a spell ready to let him escape, just because you don't want him to escape?

The wizard got alerted only a couple of minutes before the players entered his sanctum. So really no time to prepare new spells. And he didn't memorize teleport.

Why not? I agree its fairly stupid for adventuring wizards not to. This wizard was at home, in his heavily defended tower. Thats part of the reason, the second part being I did not want the party to feel cheated by crawling their way through the tower, almost beating him and then he teleports away, depriving them of the satisfaction that they made their imaginary world a bit safer by removing a very vile person. I did not want to deprive them of their earned victory. That is not to say I did not play him as I thought was best (though many disagree).

Spiryt
2008-08-24, 12:24 PM
A level 1 Wizard can kill a level 1 Fighter almost every time. Sleep. CDG. Next.



Fighter actually wins the initiative. He charges. Or readies action against spell. Next.

Plus, 1-1 duels from some abstract distance and in absract circumstances aren't really the measure of power.

I of course agree that Wizards spells are horribly overpowered, but I also agree with Saph that at least on 1-7,8 levels they don't overpower everything.

Bryn
2008-08-24, 12:33 PM
http://img383.imageshack.us/img383/7508/onwizardthreadsct3.png
That should summarise my thoughts on the matter.

Spiryt
2008-08-24, 12:36 PM
Meh, you probably haven't seen a decent monk thread. :smallamused:

Saph
2008-08-24, 12:45 PM
Yeah, the monk threads were much more spectacular.

It's probably just as well the Wizard Vs. Monk challenge match never got off the ground. It would have engulfed the whole playground. :P

- Saph

Tehnar
2008-08-24, 12:50 PM
Problem with this scenario is this Wizard doesn't have any ranks in Knowledge (Tactics).

First of all, how did the Barbarian PINPOINT the location of invisible wizard (I don't know if even there are rules for pinpointing with listen), thus allowing him to attack in which case wizard would still have the benefits of 50% chance. And if he had 5 rounds to prepare for combat, I have no idea how the barbarian hit him even once.

You tried to target a character with incredibly high fort (Barbarian) with Phantasmal Killer (a very mediocre spell requiring 2 saveS) and expected it to work? TWICE? 5 rounds of cloudkill instead of CDG would work so much better.


Im sorry If you misunderstood me, the wizard cast only one phantasmal killer, and the barbarian made the will save (as he did with fear).

The wizard had 5 rounds to prepare, and had numerous buffs on him bringing his AC to 21.

To pinpoint someone with listen goes like this: Make a listen against their move silently. Since the wizard was moving at full speed thats -5 on his check. Add 20 to that for trying to pinpoint, for a total modifier of +17 (for the wizard because of his dex). The barbarian has had a +11 to listen. so a bad roll by the wizard or a good by the barbarian, and he can pinpoint the wizard. And of course the wizard still benefits from total concealment.

Cloudkill: not prepared.

As for the ranged touch attacks I forgot to answer in my previous post, the wizard had a + 9 (5 base, 2 dex, 2 for being invisible). Pretty high, but with uncanny dodge or shield ward feat (for the fighter) still a fair chance of missing (15-25% depending on the target).

Flickerdart
2008-08-24, 12:57 PM
21 AC. For 5 rounds of preparation. That seems a bit low...

Akimbo
2008-08-24, 01:01 PM
I'm sorry, but I don't think I have to justify my choice that my NPC carries a weapon he is proficient in, rather then a very silly one for a wizard to have (when pray tell did you read, hear or see, in books or movies of wizards with scythes).

Where to start:

1) If you actually know how coup de grace works, and you are a level anything above 3 Wizard, then you do have to. Because see, No one care if you are proficient with a weapon after level 3, you could be proficient with nothing and we still wouldn't care. Before level three, only your crossbow or bow matters.

2) Where have you read about a Wizard casting Phantasmal Killer? See I've never seen a Wizard cast that in any book, but I have seen them cast Evard's Black Tentacles. That means you should have cast that instead.

Or you know, we can base this off of intelligent choices and numbers instead of what I've read in books.

(Also, see Death for a Wizard with Scythe. Probably more that carry scythes then ever used a dagger for anything except skinning.)


In real games bad rolls happen. As do the good rolls. If the barbarian rolls a 1 on his saving throw it doesn't matter if he has a +666 on his fort save, he will still fail. And sometimes he hits the right image, makes the blur percentage dice, and criticaly hits the mage.

So you freely admit that you were casting the spell betting everything on a 1, after you hit on a touch attack instead of casting a decent spell? Or casting Phantasmal Killer at the Rogue who would have had to roll a couple 16+ rolls to survive?

That's definitionaly stupid when you have better options, like freaking Resilient Sphere.


Could have the wizard been played better? Could he have chosen better spells? Could he have carried a better weapon? Of course he could, given hindsight. But in a REAL game, characters and players sometimes do crazy, stupid, original things that make the game fun, at least for me.

See this is exactly my point, you could give me that exact same Wizard, with the exact same spells, and the exact same weapon and I would have TPKed your party based on moderately intelligent choices.

Should you have TPKed your party? Maybe. Depends on if they deserved it (they'll never learn if you coddle them).

Could you have if you made smart choices? Easily.


Fighter actually wins the initiative. He charges. Or readies action against spell. Next.

Plus, 1-1 duels from some abstract distance and in absract circumstances aren't really the measure of power.

I of course agree that Wizards spells are horribly overpowered, but I also agree with Saph that at least on 1-7,8 levels they don't overpower everything.

Or, Wizard has higher Dex and is more likely to take Improved Init, Or Wizard is a goddam titan of awesome with a humminbird Familiar, Better Dex, Improved Init subbed for Scribe scroll and winds Init by a lot. And if he's actually just fighting in one duel, add in Nerveskitter.

Fighter Init? +9 with a 20 Dex and Improved Init.

Wizard Init? +18 with same Dex and feat.

Fighter save? -1.

Wizard Save DC? 16-17.

Fighter to hit? +6

Wizard AC? 15.

Yeah, odds don't even favor the fighter by much if he wins init.

2) "Readies action against spell?" What does that even mean? That the Wizard 5ft steps and casts. Big woop.

3) Yes, 1-1 duels don't mean much, which is why the Wizard's ability to kill multiple enemies with his AoE save or Die at level 1 with a better chance of success then a fighter has to hit is even better.

Spiryt
2008-08-24, 01:02 PM
21 AC. For 5 rounds of preparation. That seems a bit low...

On what level? On 1rst it can have sense, beacuse 21 AC without tower shields and other cumbersome stuff is at least high on 1rst level. Still, 5 rounds makes it pointless in combat.

Akimbo
2008-08-24, 01:07 PM
To pinpoint someone with listen goes like this: Make a listen against their move silently. Since the wizard was moving at full speed thats -5 on his check. Add 20 to that for trying to pinpoint, for a total modifier of +17 (for the wizard because of his dex). The barbarian has had a +11 to listen. so a bad roll by the wizard or a good by the barbarian, and he can pinpoint the wizard. And of course the wizard still benefits from total concealment.

Wrong, to pinpoint someone is a DC 40 check if they don't move silently. If they do it's DC 40 plus check.

So Wizard is rolling +57, Barb is rolling +7 (Because you conveniently forgot to include the penalty for being in combat.)


As for the ranged touch attacks I forgot to answer in my previous post, the wizard had a + 9 (5 base, 2 dex, 2 for being invisible). Pretty high, but with uncanny dodge or shield ward feat (for the fighter) still a fair chance of missing (15-25% depending on the target).

Um, so with Uncanny Dodge he has an AC of what? because seriously even if he doesn't lose his deflection and Dex, he should still have a 14 AC max. So thats 75% chance of hitting, and yet he hit on 1/4 checks. Are you telling me he only ever rolled above a 5 once?

Spiryt
2008-08-24, 01:08 PM
2) "Readies action against spell?" What does that even mean? That the Wizard 5ft steps and casts. Big woop.


It means:

Distracting Spellcasters

You can ready an attack against a spellcaster with the trigger "if she starts casting a spell." If you damage the spellcaster, she may lose the spell she was trying to cast (as determined by her Concentration check result).

How 5 feet step is supposed to help here? When wizard starts casting a spell, Fighter attack with a bow, or if it's in melee, he takes 5 feet step as well.

Akimbo
2008-08-24, 01:09 PM
On what level? On 1rst it can have sense, beacuse 21 AC without tower shields and other cumbersome stuff is at least high on 1rst level. Still, 5 rounds makes it pointless in combat.

No we are talking about a level 11 Wizard with an AC of 21 after five round of preparation.

He apparently had a +2 Dex mod so we start at 12, add Mage Armor, Shield, Protection from Good and he's already at 22. If he even tried to use decent spells like Greater Mage Armor, or Alter Self, or had any items at all, he should be well above 21.

Chronos
2008-08-24, 01:10 PM
It's probably just as well the Wizard Vs. Monk challenge match never got off the ground. It would have engulfed the whole playground. :PThe funny thing is, when you have two black holes colliding, you get truly phenomenal amounts of energy released, but it's all in gravitational waves, which have almost no effect on anything around them. So probably, nobody would even notice wizard vs. monk.

Arakune
2008-08-24, 01:10 PM
Im sorry If you misunderstood me, the wizard cast only one phantasmal killer, and the barbarian made the will save (as he did with fear).

The wizard had 5 rounds to prepare, and had numerous buffs on him bringing his AC to 21.

To pinpoint someone with listen goes like this: Make a listen against their move silently. Since the wizard was moving at full speed thats -5 on his check. Add 20 to that for trying to pinpoint, for a total modifier of +17 (for the wizard because of his dex). The barbarian has had a +11 to listen. so a bad roll by the wizard or a good by the barbarian, and he can pinpoint the wizard. And of course the wizard still benefits from total concealment.

Cloudkill: not prepared.

As for the ranged touch attacks I forgot to answer in my previous post, the wizard had a + 9 (5 base, 2 dex, 2 for being invisible). Pretty high, but with uncanny dodge or shield ward feat (for the fighter) still a fair chance of missing (15-25% depending on the target).

What spell he had prepared? You still have his charsheet?

AmberVael
2008-08-24, 01:13 PM
How 5 feet step is supposed to help here? When wizard starts casting a spell, Fighter attack with a bow, or if it's in melee, he takes 5 feet step as well.

I think he assumed the following:
1) Fighter is adjacent to Wizard with a melee weapon.
2) Fighter readies his action to distract.
3) It becomes the Wizard's turn.
4) The Wizard takes a five foot step, so he is no longer within the Fighter's reach.
5) Wizard casts a spell, which doesn't cue the Fighter's readied action or an AoO, because he isn't within said Fighter's reach (and the Fighter can't five foot step when it isn't his turn.)

With a bow, the fighter can still shoot the wizard all fine with the readying tactic, most of the time.

Akimbo
2008-08-24, 01:14 PM
How 5 feet step is supposed to help here? When wizard starts casting a spell, Fighter attack with a bow, or if it's in melee, he takes 5 feet step as well.

Well if someone is a bow fighter, then you just run behind cover, because they could have shot you in the first round with two attacks and didn't just makes them stupid.

But if he isn't a bow fighter (the most common case) then no he can't five foot step, because you can't use a five foot step in a readied action unless you specified it, which you didn't.

In any situation at level 1 you are better off attacking and not readying an action, because one successful attack will kill anyone, the Wizard's advantage is higher Init, and better "to hit" chance. IE you are going to fail a save on any roll but a 18, you are also going to miss on an 8 or lower. He has a 90% chance of you dieing, and you have a 65% chance of getting to roll damage to see if he dies (though he probably will).

Spiryt
2008-08-24, 01:19 PM
You can take a 5-foot step as part of your readied action, but only if you don’t otherwise move any distance during the round

I don't see why you can't .

But indeed this


4) The Wizard takes a five foot step, so he is no longer within the Fighter's reach.

spoils it.

snoopy13a
2008-08-24, 01:23 PM
A level 1 Wizard can kill a level 1 Fighter almost every time. Sleep. CDG. Next.



Sleep is a one round spell meaning that it doesn't take effect until the beginning of your next turn. So even if the wizard wins initiative, the fighter has a turn to bring him down. If the fighter wins initiative then he/she has two turns before sleep comes into effect.

Even if you're starting from 110 feet away (the max distance of a level 1 sleep spell), the fighter can still try to hit the wizard with a longbow or heavy crossbow. Heavy crossbow does 1d10 worth of damage while the Longbow does 1d8. A level 1 fighter could theorectically have 18 strength and a Composite Longbow for those with a +4 strength modifier which would have 1d8+4 damage but this would be a 500 gold piece weapon (and a 18 strength fighter would probably have lower Dex making it more difficult to hit). The most hitpoints a level 1 wizard can have is 8 and that is with a constitution of 18. Your wizard with a 12 Constitution will have 5 hps and your 14 Constitution will have 6 hps. It is certainly possible for the fighter to win using ranged weapons. Even if the shot doesn't kill the wizard, they will have to make a concentration roll.

So a level 1 fighter can certainly kill a level 1 wizard.

Akimbo
2008-08-24, 01:26 PM
Well unless you actually think you get to start adjacent to the Wizard for some silly reason (like in a level 20 duel where he does it to pretend you have a chance) you had to first take a move action to end adjacent to him.

And so now you are standing there, incapable of 5ft step attacking, so he steps out of your reach and makes you cry.

ghost_warlock
2008-08-24, 01:29 PM
I'm sorry, but I don't think I have to justify my choice that my NPC carries a weapon he is proficient in, rather then a very silly one for a wizard to have (when pray tell did you read, hear or see, in books or movies of wizards with scythes).

Sorry, it has to be done:
http://www.rpgplanet.com/chrono/fanart/wallpaper/magus.jpg
Meet Magus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magus_(Chrono_Trigger)#Magus).(Technically not a movie or book wizard, but definitely a popular one.)

Proceed. :smalltongue:

Akimbo
2008-08-24, 01:30 PM
Sleep is a one round spell meaning that it doesn't take effect until the beginning of your next turn. So even if the wizard wins initiative, the fighter has a turn to bring him down. If the fighter wins initiative then he/she has two turns before sleep comes into effect.

Even if you're starting from 110 feet away (the max distance of a level 1 sleep spell), the fighter can still try to hit the wizard with a longbow or heavy crossbow. Heavy crossbow does 1d10 worth of damage while the Longbow does 1d8. A level 1 fighter could theorectically have 18 strength and a Composite Longbow for those with a +4 strength modifier which would have 1d8+4 damage but this would be a 500 gold piece weapon (and a 18 strength fighter would probably have lower Dex making it more difficult to hit). The most hitpoints a level 1 wizard can have is 8 and that is with a constitution of 18. Your wizard with a 12 Constitution will have 5 hps and your 14 Constitution will have 6 hps. It is certainly possible for the fighter to win using ranged weapons. Even if the shot doesn't kill the wizard, they will have to make a concentration roll.

So a level 1 fighter can certainly kill a level 1 wizard.

Yes, a level 1 Fighter can kill a level 1 Wizard, he has to be built around a specific suboptimal strategy for any non-Wizard opponent, or for any Wizard opponent after level 3. He then has to hope he hits, and hope he rolls high on damage.

He has overall, a less then 40% chance of killing the Wizard in one round, compared to the Wizard with higher Init who can either cast Sleep, or Color Spray (they both exist, and a level 1 duel speced Wizard has a DC 17 Sleep and DC 18 Color Spray combined with Mage Armor if he's allowed to buff, and he has an AC of 14-19 depending on Dex and Mage Armor, a +18 to Init, and 4 spells a day.)

Flashlight
2008-08-24, 01:33 PM
So wizards should lob around a big heavy weapon for... cutting off heads after immobilizing things? Yes, thats the tactic everyone would expect :smallamused: Of course we would expect that a 24 Int wizard knows everything about the obscure "saving throws" in game, and of course knows which class has which :smallsigh: Stop hating on the DM's tactics, it's very good that he posted an actual game situation instead of some hypothetical battles that include a mountain of metagaming.

Edit: You're right, Sorry about the books part

FMArthur
2008-08-24, 01:41 PM
That 'mountain of books' containing hundreds of copies of the Player's Handbook and nothing else. I don't see a whole lot of people even talking about non-core spells. The Wizard class requires a lot of forethought, because as said earlier, there are a lot of 'trap' spells that new players wouldn't know to avoid. Unfortunately, this topic is about experienced players with knowledge of the game. You wouldn't expect a topic about any other class being played by someone who doesn't understand it, so why shouldn't a Wizard be a moderately well-planned character when comparing? Picking up spells that are good and preparing them is not overly meta-gamey.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-08-24, 01:46 PM
Can your Fighter make a DC 18 Will save on a regular basis? If not, then he's probably going to lose against a Wizard at level 1, who gets 4 of those per day, probably has a higher initiative, is more likely to have a size mod to AC, and can do it at range. The higher the level, the more options each has, but generally, most of the Wizard options will be better than most of the Fighter options.

RTGoodman
2008-08-24, 01:48 PM
Of course we would expect that a 24 Int wizard knows everything about the obscure "saving throws" in game, and of course knows which class has which :smallsigh:

They don't know anything about "saving throws" and DCs and whatnot, but a Wizard with a 24 Int (higher than is even humanly possible) should at the very least know that some spells work better against frail (low Fort) opponents, some work better against slow opponents (low Reflex), and some work better against weak-willed opponents (low Will). Chances are, if something's in full plate, it's not gonna be evading and dodging as well as the lithe-but-fragile halfling in leather or cloth.

@snoopy: You're also forgetting that a composite longbow with +4 Str is WAY too expensive for a 1st-level character. It's what, 500 gold or something like that? MAXIMUM wealth for a 1st-level Fighter is 240 gold. And even if that's allowed, he certainly doesn't get any armor or anything (except maybe a dagger). And his Str and Dex are both going to have to be high to hit the Wizard (who'll have a decent AC, at least, from Dex and mage armor and/or shield), and in that case his Will save is crap (meaning sleep, etc., are all too easy).

Flashlight
2008-08-24, 01:52 PM
My whole point was that a in-game wizard shouldn't be automatically played with the "optimal" tactics, that is - make yourself untouchable, control the battlefield, target weak saves, coup with a scythe if applicable, use teleport when needed. A enraged crazy wizard may throw a fireball at you, just because he likes explosions, or not coup the barbarian in this case, because he overestimates himself. It's a little off-topic now.

Frosty
2008-08-24, 01:54 PM
I can easily kill of a level 1 wizard with a Fighter. If we start far apart, and the Wiard starts casting a spell and hasn't finished by the time it's my turn, I turn around and use the RUN option. Hey guess what, the Wizard has now finished casting Sleep, and must release it somewhere, but I'm not longe rin range. Sleep is WASTED.

If I'm within charging range when it's my turn, I'll charge. At level 1, my 16 strength human fighter (if he has weapon focus, which is ok for a low level fighter. Just retrain later) has a +7 bonus to hit against the wizard's possibly 16 AC (if the wizard had time to cast Mage Armor before-hand. Remember, it's a 1-hour buff at level 1, AND the wizard just wasted one of his THREE daily spells). One hit with the Greatsword and the Wizard dies. No save.

If My fighter had won initiative and the charge had missed, and the Wizard 5ft steps and casts Sleep? Fine, I'll go and use the RUN option away to get out of range of Sleep, or I can wager on a successful hit and walk up and hit the Wizard again. Either way, a level 1 Fighter has a very good chance of killing a level 1 Wizard in Core.

Bryn
2008-08-24, 01:56 PM
Meh, you probably haven't seen a decent monk thread. :smallamused:

Yeah, the monk threads were much more spectacular.
<snip>
- Saph
Oh, I've seen some big monk threads. Never had the thought of posting a black hole until now, so I have to work with what I've got :smallamused:

Although I would propose that, combined, the 4e threads beat both of them combined.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-08-24, 01:59 PM
I can easily kill of a level 1 wizard with a Fighter. If we start far apart, and the Wiard starts casting a spell and hasn't finished by the time it's my turn, I turn around and use the RUN option. Hey guess what, the Wizard has now finished casting Sleep, and must release it somewhere, but I'm not longe rin range. Sleep is WASTED.

If I'm within charging range when it's my turn, I'll charge. At level 1, my 16 strength human fighter (if he has weapon focus, which is ok for a low level fighter. Just retrain later) has a +7 bonus to hit against the wizard's possibly 16 AC (if the wizard had time to cast Mage Armor before-hand. Remember, it's a 1-hour buff at level 1, AND the wizard just wasted one of his THREE daily spells). One hit with the Greatsword and the Wizard dies. No save.

If My fighter had won initiative and the charge had missed, and the Wizard 5ft steps and casts Sleep? Fine, I'll go and use the RUN option away to get out of range of Sleep, or I can wager on a successful hit and walk up and hit the Wizard again. Either way, a level 1 Fighter has a very good chance of killing a level 1 Wizard in Core.Color Spray. If he starts within 45 feet of you and wins initiative, you get wasted. Even without CdG, he can probably do enough to you in the 3d4+1 rounds to make you lose. If you're within 60 feet, he gets Charm Person instead. Sleep is actually pretty bad in an arena match, it's only good because it's an AoE SoD. There's so many good enchantments at first level it's not funny, and with 20 int+spell focus, he's going to make it impossible to save.

Spiryt
2008-08-24, 02:01 PM
This duels really doesn't tell anything, they're about specific wizard, with specific spells...

Simple fact that Fighter is an elf can spoil the whole Sleep tactics. And it's not like Wizard will have much more other tricks, as 20Int specialist has 4 spells per dady.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-08-24, 02:03 PM
This duels really doesn't tell anything, they're about specific wizard, with specific spells...

Simple fact that Fighter is an elf can spoil the whole Sleep tactics. And it's not like Wizard will have much more other tricks, as 20Int specialist has 4 spells per dady.Did you miss my post about Wizards? Color Spray+Charm Person is all you should be prepping at first level.

Akimbo
2008-08-24, 02:04 PM
So wizards should lob around a big heavy weapon for... cutting off heads after immobilizing things? Yes, thats the tactic everyone would expect :smallamused: Of course we would expect that a 24 Int wizard knows everything about the obscure "saving throws" in game, and of course knows which class has which :smallsigh: Stop hating on the DM's tactics, it's very good that he posted an actual game situation instead of some hypothetical battles that include a mountain of metagaming.

No, I expect a Wizard who doesn't have a party (and most who do) to have some means of finishing off a downed opponent.

I expect a Necromancy themed Wizard to both have a Scythe and a favorite skeletal minion that never leaves his side and would have served equally well to coup de grace the Barbarian.

I also expect someone who uses fear, necromancy, and illusion to have realized that certain spells (Like Ghoul Touch and Phantasmal Killer) have a very hard time working on the big fat guy right in front of him who's two handing a giant sword. I expect him to realize that Mind affecting things aren't as good at disableing anyone who can cast spells, and that small nimble guys are harder to hit with rays, but I don't expect him to understand AC either.

I expect him to in this situation:

1) Cast EBT instead of fear from the begining.

2) Cast Resilient Sphere on the Barbarian who is pounding on his images.

3) To bring out his minion or summon one or coup de grace with a decent weapon.

4) To cast Phantasmal Killer on the Rogue instead of the Barbarian.

5) (Insert something about how the DM subtracted an arbitrary -40 from the pinpoint DC because he wanted the Wizard found, that's just the DM cheating for the players, not Wizard stupidity).

6) To not aim all his ranged touch attacks at the small fast guy for no damn reason.

7) to use higher level spells then level 2-3 when someone breaks into his home, kills everything in it, and then assaults him.

SCPRedMage
2008-08-24, 02:06 PM
I forgot if I throw Maximize in there. I'm sure I could if I want to use up a 9th level spell, but at the time of my build, I wasn't up to 9th level yet so I couldn't fit Maximize in there. But yes, orb of Fire. Use class features and metamagic feats to make metamagic free or nearly free, and then apply it your favorite no save, no SR spell. Hundreds of damage a round to one target.
My GM was quite perturbed when my Aritificer used a Rod of Many Wands, three wands of Orb of Fire, Metamagic Spell Trigger, Quicken Spell, Empower Spell, and Maximize Spell to solo a Great Wyrm Red Dragon in two turns. Including the surprise round. While invisible. At level 14.

Perturbed enough that he didn't give me any XP... :smallsigh:

Frosty
2008-08-24, 02:07 PM
Not really impossible. Just needs to be more...creative. Ok, so you charm someone. Great. They still ain't dead. If you try to attack them, they break the charm. And you are assuming that you WILL win initative. Assuming core only (also, i have never seen any DM allow a hummingbird familiar. I wouldn't), both will have equal chances of winning initative. The Fighter will have a better chance if he is an Archery fighter. Both get Improved Initiative. Archer mostlikely has a better Dex. If starting at far away, Fighter uses Composite Longbow to snipe the Wizard. I'm betting the wizard won't have enough time to run close enough to the fighter to cast his spells before he dies. If the wizard wins initiative instead, then the Wizard HAS to use the RUN option to get into range. Ok great. Lose your DEX bonus to AC, and prepare to get POINT-BLANK SHOTTED.

The archery fighter should probably take Skill Focus (Spot) and put 2 ranks into Spot to try to start the encounter from as far away as possible. Then later retrain.

fractic
2008-08-24, 02:07 PM
My whole point was that a in-game wizard shouldn't be automatically played with the "optimal" tactics, that is - make yourself untouchable, control the battlefield, target weak saves, coup with a scythe if applicable, use teleport when needed. A enraged crazy wizard may throw a fireball at you, just because he likes explosions, or not coup the barbarian in this case, because he overestimates himself. It's a little off-topic now.

But this wizard is a lot smarter than the average human and assuming he's reasonably high level has a lot of fighting experience. If he's using bad tactics there's no reason for him to still be alive in the first place.

Akimbo
2008-08-24, 02:10 PM
I can easily kill of a level 1 wizard with a Fighter. If we start far apart, and the Wiard starts casting a spell and hasn't finished by the time it's my turn, I turn around and use the RUN option. Hey guess what, the Wizard has now finished casting Sleep, and must release it somewhere, but I'm not longe rin range. Sleep is WASTED.

If I'm within charging range when it's my turn, I'll charge. At level 1, my 16 strength human fighter (if he has weapon focus, which is ok for a low level fighter. Just retrain later) has a +7 bonus to hit against the wizard's possibly 16 AC (if the wizard had time to cast Mage Armor before-hand. Remember, it's a 1-hour buff at level 1, AND the wizard just wasted one of his THREE daily spells). One hit with the Greatsword and the Wizard dies. No save.

If My fighter had won initiative and the charge had missed, and the Wizard 5ft steps and casts Sleep? Fine, I'll go and use the RUN option away to get out of range of Sleep, or I can wager on a successful hit and walk up and hit the Wizard again. Either way, a level 1 Fighter has a very good chance of killing a level 1 Wizard in Core.

Luckily for everyone with any brains, Sleep isn't the only spell in the world. Honestly, if you don't have a Bow, I'm just going to ready an action for Color Spray every time.

2) You have a +5 bonus to hit against his AC 15 without Mage Armor, with Mage Armor it's 19 and you can just go cry. Try to do the math right somewhere.

3) And by the way, the Wizard has 4 spells. Or maybe 5. Just so you know.

Spiryt
2008-08-24, 02:10 PM
Did you miss my post about Wizards? Color Spray+Charm Person is all you should be prepping at first level.

All this talking was about Sleep.

And against Charm Person simple charge is very effective, at it's only 25 feet range at 1rst level.

Just like against Color Spray, although Fighter most probably will have only 40 feet charge range.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-08-24, 02:13 PM
Not really impossible. Just needs to be more...creative. Ok, so you charm someone. Great. They still ain't dead. If you try to attack them, they break the charm. And you are assuming that you WILL win initative. Assuming core only (also, i have never seen any DM allow a hummingbird familiar. I wouldn't), both will have equal chances of winning initative. The Fighter will have a better chance if he is an Archery fighter. Both get Improved Initiative. Archer mostlikely has a better Dex. If starting at far away, Fighter uses Composite Longbow to snipe the Wizard. I'm betting the wizard won't have enough time to run close enough to the fighter to cast his spells before he dies. If the wizard wins initiative instead, then the Wizard HAS to use the RUN option to get into range. Ok great. Lose your DEX bonus to AC, and prepare to get POINT-BLANK SHOTTED.

The archery fighter should probably take Skill Focus (Spot) and put 2 ranks into Spot to try to start the encounter from as far away as possible. Then later retrain.Charm>dead. They're your ally for the next hour. Get them into a combat at your side and see what happens. Also, Init is a tossup that depends a lot on the point-buy and how long the campaign is expected to last. Most people have more needed feats than Imp. Init. at first level, and other than an archer Fighter, most fighters plan on full-plate and dump Dex.

Frosty
2008-08-24, 02:14 PM
If the Fighter wins initiative and is not an archer, then charging the Wizard is usually a good chance of winning. It really IS whoever wins initiative in a level 1 duel. If they are farther away, the Fighter should run away and let the wizard come up to him within Charging range. If the Fighter was smart, he would have brought a bow to start sniping. Or just be a focused archer from the start.

MammonAzrael
2008-08-24, 02:17 PM
If the Fighter wins initiative and is not an archer, then charging the Wizard is usually a good chance of winning. It really IS whoever wins initiative in a level 1 duel. If they are farther away, the Fighter should run away and let the wizard come up to him within Charging range. If the Fighter was smart, he would have brought a bow to start sniping. Or just be a focused archer from the start.

Assuming the fighter didn't dump INT. :smallwink:

Frankly level 1 duels are sorta pointless, since some much depends on Init, and you don't have a lot of your class features, aren't terribly well defined, etc. I'd think levels 5-10 would give better examples.

Eldariel
2008-08-24, 02:17 PM
Uhh... This thread...
http://kevinchiu.org/emote/facepalm.jpg

Carry on. Magus-appearance saved it from a double.

Frosty
2008-08-24, 02:17 PM
Charm>dead. They're your ally for the next hour. Get them into a combat at your side and see what happens. Also, Init is a tossup that depends a lot on the point-buy and how long the campaign is expected to last. Most people have more needed feats than Imp. Init. at first level, and other than an archer Fighter, most fighters plan on full-plate and dump Dex.

In an arena duel? Just spec for the duel. In an actual campaign, Improved Init is always nice. It's like getting an extra turn if you go first. Always a good thing.

If I am a full-plate Fighter, depending on pt-buy, I will go 16 dex. Maybe I can go with an Elf. The -2 Con doesn't hurt me against a Wizard. The +2 against Charm helps, and the Immunity to Sleep rocks. Now I have an extra 2 dex to play with! Sure I lose Weapon Focus (Bow/Greatsword) but whatever.

If I plan to play a wizard for the long term, Dex is a third concern for me. I will first go INT, then go CON, then go for DEX.

Akimbo
2008-08-24, 02:18 PM
Not really impossible. Just needs to be more...creative. Ok, so you charm someone. Great. They still ain't dead. If you try to attack them, they break the charm. And you are assuming that you WILL win initative. Assuming core only (also, i have never seen any DM allow a hummingbird familiar. I wouldn't), both will have equal chances of winning initative. The Fighter will have a better chance if he is an Archery fighter. Both get Improved Initiative. Archer mostlikely has a better Dex. If starting at far away, Fighter uses Composite Longbow to snipe the Wizard. I'm betting the wizard won't have enough time to run close enough to the fighter to cast his spells before he dies. If the wizard wins initiative instead, then the Wizard HAS to use the RUN option to get into range. Ok great. Lose your DEX bonus to AC, and prepare to get POINT-BLANK SHOTTED.

The archery fighter should probably take Skill Focus (Spot) and put 2 ranks into Spot to try to start the encounter from as far away as possible. Then later retrain.

So now you are basing your entire duel around a Elf Dex fighter with 20 Dex (the equal of the Wizard, not better) and arbitrarily stripping him of options that you don't like.

You still have a best possible to hit (within 30ft) of +7 against AC 19. And the same Init, or less if you would stop stripping all his options. And you are now so terrible that you will die to the following Core duel builds:

Fighter with sword/Barbarian/Druid/Cleric/Monk/probably Rogue/every single class but Wizard/Sorcerer because there is only one possible build that has odds at beating a Wizard. And even that one doesn't if you use sensible dueling standards.

Seriously, a Wizard level 1 Duel build beats 95% of duel builds. The one it doesn't loses to every single other build.

You are playing Stratego, without bombs, and you are claiming the 1 isn't that good, because the spy can beat him under some circumstances.

And in an actual party? The Wizard takes out 3 goblins in a round, everyone else coup de graces. Next fight? Same thing. Next fight, yeah the Snakes all go down to Color Spray, ect, ect, ect.

snoopy13a
2008-08-24, 02:19 PM
Yes, a level 1 Fighter can kill a level 1 Wizard, he has to be built around a specific suboptimal strategy for any non-Wizard opponent, or for any Wizard opponent after level 3. He then has to hope he hits, and hope he rolls high on damage.

He has overall, a less then 40% chance of killing the Wizard in one round, compared to the Wizard with higher Init who can either cast Sleep, or Color Spray (they both exist, and a level 1 duel speced Wizard has a DC 17 Sleep and DC 18 Color Spray combined with Mage Armor if he's allowed to buff, and he has an AC of 14-19 depending on Dex and Mage Armor, a +18 to Init, and 4 spells a day.)



If intelligence is capped at 18 (+4 bonus) for the wizard, how are you getting DCs of 17 and 18? By my calculations that comes to a DC of 15 (10+4 intelligence bonus + 1 for the spell level) which would give my fighter with a mudane Wisdom score of 10, a 30% chance of succeeding. If you take spell focus in that discipline then it will be a DC of 16. Finally, if your wizard has high Intelligence and Dexterity (for winning initiative) then why can't my fighter have high Strength and Dexterity. Initiative should be a wash. Plus, if the wizard casts sleep and the fighter hits with an arrow, the wizard needs to make a concentration check which the wizard has around a 25-50% chance of failing.

Now, if the fighter and wizard start up close and the fighter wins initiative then the fighter attacks with a greatsword with 2d6+4 (assuming the figher has 18 strength) worth of damage. If the fighter misses then he better hope that he saves against that color spray*

If the wizard and fighter start up close, whoever wins initiative will most likely win (either the fighter gets color sprayed or the wizard gets chopped in half). If they start far apart, the fighter gets at least one arrow shot at the wizard and two if they win initiative. If the fighter hits, they also have a decent shot at breaking the wizard's spell.

*What is the interpretation on 5 foot steps. Do most people interpret that a 5 foot step backwards allows a spellcaster to cast without provoking an AoO (which says 5 feet). To me, it seems vague and could be interpreted either way (caster is just outside and safe or is exactly at 5 feet and can be hit).

Flashlight
2008-08-24, 02:19 PM
But this wizard is a lot smarter than the average human and assuming he's reasonably high level has a lot of fighting experience. If he's using bad tactics there's no reason for him to still be alive in the first place.

Why should "Fireball the place" be a bad tactic? Maybe it worked all the time for the wizard, but who cares because it's irrelevant. It's only a bad tactic compared to the usual Save-or-Die tactic you know to be superior because of threads like this, so, metagaming again in my opinion.

Also, to the whole Coup de Grace thing, I'll guess when the wizard would want to kill a helpless person, he would also use a spell at least, since it's his natural form of killing. Just a thought.

Spiryt
2008-08-24, 02:22 PM
And in an actual party? The Wizard takes out 3 goblins in a round, everyone else coup de graces. Next fight? Same thing. Next fight, yeah the Snakes all go down to Color Spray, ect, ect, ect.

Or 2 goblins make they're pretty decent Hide saves in some bushes, and bring Mages hit points down.

Or something completely different happens. Seriously, this scenario of yours isn't really one that have to happen.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-08-24, 02:22 PM
If the Fighter wins initiative and is not an archer, then charging the Wizard is usually a good chance of winning. It really IS whoever wins initiative in a level 1 duel. If they are farther away, the Fighter should run away and let the wizard come up to him within Charging range. If the Fighter was smart, he would have brought a bow to start sniping. Or just be a focused archer from the start.True, initiative is key, but I'm assuming one built for an adventure. A core Fighter will likely be Human, Half-Orc, Orc, or Dwarf. A core wizard will likely be Grey Elf, Halfling, Gnome or Human. The Wizard races have higher dex, much higher AC, and Dex is equally important to most Fighters and Wizards, so generally, I'm going to view Initiative as "too close to call", slightly favoring the Wizard. Yes, an Archer fighter is different, but I have never seen one of those played in a real campaign. Most Archers at least take their first level in Ranger, for the skills and other benefits.

Akimbo
2008-08-24, 02:23 PM
If the Fighter wins initiative and is not an archer, then charging the Wizard is usually a good chance of winning. It really IS whoever wins initiative in a level 1 duel. If they are farther away, the Fighter should run away and let the wizard come up to him within Charging range. If the Fighter was smart, he would have brought a bow to start sniping. Or just be a focused archer from the start.

If the fighter wins init and charges, 1) He doesn't win Init.
2) He swings at +10 versus AC 19-23. And has a 45%-65% chance of losing anyways.

If the Wizard wins Init, he wins, if the Fighter Wins Init, he still probably loses.

That's how sad this example is.

Frosty
2008-08-24, 02:24 PM
So now you are basing your entire duel around a Elf Dex fighter with 20 Dex (the equal of the Wizard, not better) and arbitrarily stripping him of options that you don't like.

You still have a best possible to hit (within 30ft) of +7 against AC 19. And the same Init, or less if you would stop stripping all his options. And you are now so terrible that you will die to the following Core duel builds:

Umm no. Your Wizard will probably have only 16 Dex at best depending on your build, unless you plan on dumping INT or something. And who says you'll have Mage Armor up? It's a short-term buff at level 1. I as a DM won't allow you tp have it up unless you cast it in battle. Or, do it the JokerMonk way and run away until your buff runs out. I bet I've got higher Con than you and can run for longer.

Go ahead and post your level 1 character. 28 pt-buy. Uses the PHB only. Your wizard will NOT be dominating this fight 95% of the time.

Gralamin
2008-08-24, 02:24 PM
Why should "Fireball the place" be a bad tactic? Maybe it worked all the time for the wizard, but who cares because it's irrelevant. It's only a bad tactic compared to the usual Save-or-Die tactic you know to be superior because of threads like this, so, metagaming again in my opinion.

Also, to the whole Coup de Grace thing, I'll guess when the wizard would want to kill a helpless person, he would also use a spell at least, since it's his natural form of killing. Just a thought.

Fireball the place is a bad tactic since it has a higher chance of leaving creatures alive, since fireball isn't all that powerful of a spell. Your goal is to kill the enemy. Your smart enough to know your enemies weaknesses. Since Save or dies can kill the enemy with the least risk to yourself (due to the high success rate), it would make sense in character to use them.

Why coup de grace with a spell? You don't get very many spells, and their a limited resource. If an unlimited resource does the job, then why not use it?

Frosty
2008-08-24, 02:25 PM
If the fighter wins init and charges, 1) He doesn't win Init.
2) He swings at +10 versus AC 19-23. And has a 45%-65% chance of losing anyways.

If the Wizard wins Init, he wins, if the Fighter Wins Init, he still probably loses.

That's how sad this example is.

Bullcrap. Fighter can win initiative. Core only. No hummingbird.

He doesn't swing against 19-23. Where are you getting these numbers from? What, you think Shield is a viable tactic at level 1? You think all Wizards will have 18 Dex? Alright. I see the Wizard cast Shield. I RUN away until Shield runs out. Thanks for wasting a spell. I see Mage Armor cast. Same thing. I'll be back an hour later.

Akimbo
2008-08-24, 02:30 PM
If intelligence is capped at 18 (+4 bonus) for the wizard, how are you getting DCs of 17 and 18? By my calculations that comes to a DC of 15 (10+4 intelligence bonus + 1 for the spell level) which would give my fighter with a mudane Wisdom score of 10, a 30% chance of succeeding. If you take spell focus in that discipline then it will be a DC of 16. Finally, if your wizard has high Intelligence and Dexterity (for winning initiative) then why can't my fighter have high Strength and Dexterity. Initiative should be a wash. Plus, if the wizard casts sleep and the fighter hits with an arrow, the wizard needs to make a concentration check which the wizard has around a 25-50% chance of failing.

Now, if the fighter and wizard start up close and the fighter wins initiative then the fighter attacks with a greatsword with 2d6+4 (assuming the figher has 18 strength) worth of damage. If the fighter misses then he better hope that he saves against that color spray*

If the wizard and fighter start up close, whoever wins initiative will most likely win (either the fighter gets color sprayed or the wizard gets chopped in half). If they start far apart, the fighter gets at least one arrow shot at the wizard and two if they win initiative. If the fighter hits, they also have a decent shot at breaking the wizard's spell.

*What is the interpretation on 5 foot steps. Do most people interpret that a 5 foot step backwards allows a spellcaster to cast without provoking an AoO (which says 5 feet). To me, it seems vague and could be interpreted either way (caster is just outside and safe or is exactly at 5 feet and can be hit).

The honor of this moment is beyond your comprehension. I get to be the first person in this thread to say:

Shroedinger Fighter!!!!

I have 1 Wizard with 20 Dex, 20 Int, Grey Elf with Hummingbird Familiar memorizing either Mage Armor/Shield/Color Spray/Sleep or Color Spray/Color Spray/Sleep/Sleep. Depending on DM rulings of buffing before entering the arena.

Feats are Improved Init, Spell Focus, maybe Greater if flaws are allowed.

This is the same build for every single possible Fight.

meanwhile, Mr Fighter goes back and forth from being an 22 Str Orc with Weapon Focus Greatsword, a 20 Dex Elf with Point Blank Shot/improved Init ect.

Pick one, duel right now. You'll see that winning Init with your 50% chance to even hit doesn't actually equal win at all.

Spiryt
2008-08-24, 02:31 PM
Bullcrap. Fighter can win initiative. Core only. No hummingbird.

He doesn't swing against 19-23. Where are you getting these numbers from? What, you think Shield is a viable tactic at level 1? You think all Wizards will have 18 Dex? Alright. I see the Wizard cast Shield. I RUN away until Shield runs out. Thanks for wasting a spell. I see Mage Armor cast. Same thing. I'll be back an hour later.

Even 1 hour of Mage's Armor isn't really so long.

Akimbo
2008-08-24, 02:33 PM
I actually feel Giamoco's pain.

I have about 3 things to respond to with each new post I make.

Why the hell do I have this much work to do defending a damn Wizard?

Someone explain to me, is this a duel or not? If it isn't I'll stop treating it like it is and call you on all your crap.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-08-24, 02:34 PM
I actually feel Giamoco's pain.

I have about 3 things to respond to with each new post I make.

Why the hell do I have this much work to do defending a damn Wizard?I'm working up a combatant, the problem is that if he sees my build, it's much easier to counter. In something like this, Init v. Spell focus could completely change what is needed to beat me.

Akimbo
2008-08-24, 02:34 PM
Bullcrap. Fighter can win initiative. Core only. No hummingbird.

He doesn't swing against 19-23. Where are you getting these numbers from? What, you think Shield is a viable tactic at level 1? You think all Wizards will have 18 Dex? Alright. I see the Wizard cast Shield. I RUN away until Shield runs out. Thanks for wasting a spell. I see Mage Armor cast. Same thing. I'll be back an hour later.

Okay, and While I'm at it I won't cast any spells and you won't make any attack roles. And I propose -12 PB instead.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-08-24, 02:37 PM
Core only, SRD, or what?

ServantofBragi
2008-08-24, 02:38 PM
Wait, how effective would a Cause Fear spell be, combined with a sleep spell and then a CdG? Just wondering. This is a situation in the whole "100ft standoff" arena.

Akimbo
2008-08-24, 02:41 PM
I'm working up a combatant, the problem is that if he sees my build, it's much easier to counter. In something like this, Init v. Spell focus could completely change what is needed to beat me.

Well are we playing with Flaws? Because I was just going to have both.

My build is simple 32 PB

Elven Wizard sub level 1, Hummingbird Familiar

Str 6
Dex 20
Con 6
Int 20
Wis 8
Cha 8

Feats: Improved Init, Spell Focus (Illusion), Greater Spell Focus (Illusion).

Items: Scythe, Spellbook that comes with character, Component Pouch, nothing else cause I'm lazy.

Spells: Mage Armor (cast right before walking through the gate to the arena), Nerveskitter, Sleep, Color Spray.

Some things might change based on how big the Arena is, or how far we start away, but whatever.

Frosty
2008-08-24, 02:43 PM
No Flaws. This is PHB only. 28 pt-buy. That menas no nerveskitter, and no hummingbird familiar. No arena. You're going to be hunting the other person down. Almost infinite places to run. You have NO idea when the duel will start. This will come down to both spotting/listening your opponent first AND initiative.

lord_khaine
2008-08-24, 02:45 PM
first, i can agree on a lot of whats being said in here about wizards, but i really cant find a reason for a wizard to carry around a scythe thats does not either depend on heavy metagaming, or the wizard being crazy.

that aside, where is those annoying hummingbirds from, is it even a official source?

Akimbo
2008-08-24, 02:45 PM
No Flaws. This is PHB only. 28 pt-buy. That menas no nerveskitter, and no hummingbird familiar.

No Frosty, that was for everyone except you.

The only duel I'm doing with you is where we use a negative 12 PB, and the Wizard can't cast spells, and the Fighter cannot make any attack actions or special actions like overrun/grapple/bullrush.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-08-24, 02:46 PM
No Flaws. This is PHB only. 28 pt-buy. That menas no nerveskitter, and no hummingbird familiar. No arena. You're going to be hunting the other person down. Almost infinite places to run. You have NO idea when the duel will start. This will come down to both spotting your opponent first AND initiative.UA variants?

Frosty
2008-08-24, 02:47 PM
PHB, like I said. You want elf, it's the standard one.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-08-24, 02:47 PM
Core only, like I said. You want elf, it's the standard one.So no MM? words

Mephit
2008-08-24, 02:49 PM
Not sure about the humming bird (as it's from the Dragon Magazine, which I've always considered an even less balanced source than the hundred different sourcebooks), but it's pretty much universal knowledge that flaws ae cheap. They're an optional rule, so by RAW, there's no solid ground to place them on.

Also, I'm behind Lord_Kaine on the scythe matter. Intelligence affects how well you reason, which is one thing. Complete knowledge of the workings of the game (which, for the wizard, is nothing but a real world), is something completely different.

Frosty
2008-08-24, 02:51 PM
So no MM? words

Correct. We're literally only using the PHB1.

Akimbo
2008-08-24, 02:51 PM
PHB, like I said. You want elf, it's the standard one.

Let's try this again.

I Don't Care What You Say.

I am presenting a Duel build for someone else.

I am not going to play by your arbitrary restrictions and PB designed to hamper me.

I don't freaking care that by changing the rules to whatever we want we can give a Fighter a shot. I really don't. At all.

Frosty
2008-08-24, 02:53 PM
Let's try this again.

I Don't Care What You Say.

I am presenting a Duel build for someone else.

I am not going to play by your arbitrary restrictions and PB designed to hamper me.

I don't freaking care that by changing the rules to whatever we want we can give a Fighter a shot. I really don't. At all.


Umm hello, I was speaking to Sstoopidtallkid, not you. I've stopped listning to you. And if you can't live with 28 pt-buy, tough crap. Some games even start at 25 pt-buy.

Akimbo
2008-08-24, 02:55 PM
Umm hello, I was speaking to Sstoopidtallkid, not you. I've stopped listning to you. And if you can't live with 28 pt-buy, tough crap. Some games even start at 25 pt-buy.

But you wouldn't want to start with 25 PB because it would hamper you. Any you are all about designing one sided rules that favor you in every possible way.

And as far as I can tell, Stupid Tall Kid is building a Fighter to counter my Wizard, so if he follows your arbitrary rules he would either have to duel me at a disadvantage or duel you Fighter on Fighter.

Edit: Nope, looks like I misread him. He is building a Wizard character.

Frosty
2008-08-24, 02:55 PM
I could go with 25 pt-buy, but I thought that'd hamper *you* too much.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-08-24, 02:56 PM
But you wouldn't want to start with 25 PB because it would hamper you. Any you are all about designing one sided rules that favor you in every possible way.Eh, other than the no-UA variants, no PHBII stuff, that was what I was making anyways. Though this is much more Beguiler territory than wizard.

Frosty
2008-08-24, 03:00 PM
Eh, other than the no-UA variants, no PHBII stuff, that was what I was making anyways. Though this is much more Beguiler territory than wizard.

Beguilers > Wizards at level 1 to be sure. more HP. Light armor. More spells. Almost all of the GOOD level 1 spells in spell list. Very nasty. Level 1 Fighters would almost always lose due to the fact that Beguilers are better at hiding and getting that surprise round.

PHB2 would make this match trivial thanks to Abrupt Jaunt.

EDIT: I need to go out for now. Be back tomorrow or something.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-08-24, 03:03 PM
Beguilers > Wizards at level 1 to be sure. more HP. Light armor. More spells. Almost all of the GOOD level 1 spells in spell list. Very nasty. Level 1 Fighters would almost always lose due to the fact that Beguilers are better at hiding and getting that surprise round.

PHB2 would make this match trivial thanks to Abrupt Jaunt.So you do admit this is only even a contest(and one I plan to win) in the sharply limited realm of core-only that was never designed to be played in?

Frosty
2008-08-24, 03:05 PM
In that one instance of Abrupt Jaunt, it's not a contest. That thing is pretty overpowered at lower levels.

Akimbo
2008-08-24, 03:15 PM
In that one instance of Abrupt Jaunt, it's not a contest. That thing is pretty overpowered at lower levels.

Now now, that's not true at all.

It's not just Abrupt Jaunt that makes it no Contest. Apparently any one of these other things instantly makes the Fighter lose.

Beguiler, Buffing before entering the Arena, 32 PB, Using the entire selection of Core races, Spell Compendium, Any variant class features in any book anywhere, Flaws, Hummingbird Familiar, ect.

I mean, really now, your list of things that cannot be allowed because they would result in your immediate loss is pretty long.

Honestly, If I were trying to build a counter to my character it would be Zen Archery, Up Str, Max Wis, take Iron Will, and hope and pray to survive 1 Color Spray.


So you do admit this is only even a contest(and one I plan to win) in the sharply limited realm of core-only that was never designed to be played in?

Technically, even Core only is too good for a Wizard, because apparently Grey Elfs are super broken.

snoopy13a
2008-08-24, 03:17 PM
The honor of this moment is beyond your comprehension. I get to be the first person in this thread to say:

Shroedinger Fighter!!!!

I have 1 Wizard with 20 Dex, 20 Int, Grey Elf with Hummingbird Familiar memorizing either Mage Armor/Shield/Color Spray/Sleep or Color Spray/Color Spray/Sleep/Sleep. Depending on DM rulings of buffing before entering the arena.

Feats are Improved Init, Spell Focus, maybe Greater if flaws are allowed.

This is the same build for every single possible Fight.

meanwhile, Mr Fighter goes back and forth from being an 22 Str Orc with Weapon Focus Greatsword, a 20 Dex Elf with Point Blank Shot/improved Init ect.

Pick one, duel right now. You'll see that winning Init with your 50% chance to even hit doesn't actually equal win at all.



Your gray elf has 2 hitpoints, that means I really only have to hit once.

Furthermore, why couldn't I roll a halfling fighter with a Wisdom of 18? Feats are Iron Will and Improved Initative.

That's a +7 to my Will saving roll. Ok, my damage is going to be awful but I'll have a 55% chance of resisting a DC 17 spell and a 50% chance of resisting a DC 18 spell. Oh, and how does the gray elf get two feats? I have a bonus one due to being a fighter so I get two. I'll use a longbow and a greatsword as weapons (1d6 for longbow) and 1d10 for greatsword.

My strength will be bad but I'm an archer halfing that wants to multiclass into cleric :smalltongue:

Ok, this isn't a good fighter build but your wizard has 2 hitpoints :smalltongue:

ThePhantom
2008-08-24, 03:20 PM
Everyone is forgeting one thing, the thing that makes wizards useless. Antimagic.
In an antimagic field, wizards have no spells, which means dead wizard.
Fighter wins everytime when they have antimagic on their side.

Behold_the_Void
2008-08-24, 03:24 PM
Everyone is forgeting one thing, the thing that makes wizards useless. Antimagic.
In an antimagic field, wizards have no spells, which means dead wizard.
Fighter wins everytime when they have antimagic on their side.

Not really and how is the Fighter getting access to antimagic field, pray tell?

Siegel
2008-08-24, 03:24 PM
So Fighters win in one case while the wizard wins in all other ? Ok there is the case when the wizard has no spellbook but thats like a Fighter without arms (like the thing connected to your torso, not like weapon/armor).

chiasaur11
2008-08-24, 03:25 PM
Everyone is forgeting one thing, the thing that makes wizards useless. Antimagic.
In an antimagic field, wizards have no spells, which means dead wizard.
Fighter wins everytime when they have antimagic on their side.

Heh. Ha. Ha. Ha. Ha.

Heh.

If only.

Akimbo
2008-08-24, 03:26 PM
Ok, this isn't a good fighter build but your wizard has 2 hitpoints :smalltongue:

Yes, and the point is that level 1 duels are pretty stupid, but if someone else wants to resort to them, that single build can beat most every other character at level 1 (because it is childs play to actually kill a level 1 character if you can hit them).

Oh, just came up with a new idea, If I were specifically building to counter my build (which apparently everyone is doing so what the hell)

Halfling 18 Wis, 20 Dex, Improved Init, Fighter, Iron Will. Full attack using TWFing without the feat throwing two acid flasks for two splash damage if I can win Init. (Or survive a Saving throw). Sure I can't win twice cause I just blew all my money, but whatever.

Animefunkmaster
2008-08-24, 03:31 PM
but i really cant find a reason for a wizard to carry around a scythe thats does not either depend on heavy metagaming, or the wizard being crazy.

I will answer this. Have you ever wanted to play death? Try a lich who specializes in hold person and other spells that make you helpless. You walk up and coup de grace. The crit multiplier of a scyth is huge so the fort save or death will be equally huge. Also, it looks badass :smallsmile:

Proficiency isn't a big deal after level 1 because of multiclassing.

I think the fighter's main glory days is low levels and he progressively gets outmatched as the levels increase.

Emperor Tippy
2008-08-24, 03:43 PM
@Frosty

Dex: 18
Int: 18
Con: 8

Feat: Improved Initiative
Initiative: +8

There, that is 1 less than the max for initiative. Go with 16 Int and you can max it. Con does not matter at all, ever, to a level 1 wizard. Even with an 18 you only have 8 HP, you still die in 1 hit.

Grab Spell Focus: Illusion and the save to resist color spray is 16. You get +0 from your class so you have at best (18 Wis) a 45% chance of making your save. With 12 wis (much more reasonable) you have a 30% chance.

Odd's are that the wizard wins.

----
To the OP:
People say think it because it is true. I'm sorry but your damage is pitiful for a fighter and doesn't even compare to what Cindy can put out. Average damage from a 4th level slot is upwards of 450 points and 2 negative levels. Cindy can use 2 of those per round, no save, no SR, ranged touch attacks. Or she can drop 20 negative levels on you out of a 4th level slot, 40 in a round.

That's level 18+. And doesn't even mention her defenses, which no fighter can break.

Level 15+ the damage is the same.

Mephit
2008-08-24, 04:10 PM
@ Akimbo:

Composite Longbow+Far Shot would seem the way to go. Range of 150, if my calculator isn't lying. (Yeah, I'm lazy. Sue me. :smallwink: )

snoopy13a
2008-08-24, 04:11 PM
@Frosty

Dex: 18
Int: 18
Con: 8

Feat: Improved Initiative
Initiative: +8

There, that is 1 less than the max for initiative. Go with 16 Int and you can max it. Con does not matter at all, ever, to a level 1 wizard. Even with an 18 you only have 8 HP, you still die in 1 hit.

Grab Spell Focus: Illusion and the save to resist color spray is 16. You get +0 from your class so you have at best (18 Wis) a 45% chance of making your save. With 12 wis (much more reasonable) you have a 30% chance.

Odd's are that the wizard wins.



Hey, the wise halfling archer has a good chance :smalltongue:

Not sure if it is better then 50% (I'm not going to crunch the numbers) but it pretty much up there.

Mephit
2008-08-24, 04:15 PM
Fleshed it out.
Specifically countering Akimbo'sbuild (assuming we have a decent, big enough arena), I'd aim for a simple human fighter.

Str 12
Dex 20
Con 6
Int 8
Wis 16
Cha 8

1: Point Blank shot
H: Far Shot
F: Weapon Focus: Composite Longbow
Armed with a Mighty Composite Longbow +1 and the only non-core piece in this build: Arrows of flight. Not absolutely necessary, but it's nice to have.
Together worth for a range of 192 ft. (not sure how to calculate this, but...)
Whether your wizard wins init is moot. My fighter get at least 3 shots at him with a +7 modifier. (Unless you run and forfeit your Dex bonus.)

Spiryt
2008-08-24, 04:15 PM
@ Akimbo:

Composite Longbow+Far Shot would seem the way to go. Range of 150, if my calculator isn't lying. (Yeah, I'm lazy. Sue me. :smallwink: )

160 actually.

And can shoot from 315 with only - 2 penalty. So in such duel (regardless if the duel have sense or not) bow is the way to go.

Emperor Tippy
2008-08-24, 04:19 PM
Fleshed it out.
Specifically countering Akimbo'sbuild (assuming we have a decent, big enough arena), I'd aim for a simple human fighter.

Str 12
Dex 20
Con 6
Int 8
Wis 16
Cha 8

1: Point Blank shot
H: Far Shot
F: Weapon Focus: Composite Longbow
Armed with a Mighty Composite Longbow +1 and the only non-core piece in this build: Arrows of flight. Not absolutely necessary, but it's nice to have.
Together worth for a range of 192 ft. (not sure how to calculate this, but...)
Whether your wizard wins init is moot. My fighter get at least 3 shots at him with a +7 modifier. (Unless you run and forfeit your Dex bonus.)

A human can not have a dex of 20 at level 2 (the max level before you get another feat).

arguskos
2008-08-24, 04:21 PM
They are using 32 PB Tippy. I think that allows for a 20 Dex, since the wizard in question has a 20 Int and a 20 Dex... >_>

However, there is no conceivable way that fighter could have a +1 Mighty Composite Longbow, since that's well beyond the wealth limit at 1st level.

-argus

snoopy13a
2008-08-24, 04:21 PM
@ Akimbo:

Composite Longbow+Far Shot would seem the way to go. Range of 150, if my calculator isn't lying. (Yeah, I'm lazy. Sue me. :smallwink: )

That's not max range. Max is 10 times the range increment

Well, if they started a football field apart (360 feet), The fighter would have a couple of long range shots at -6 at first (-4 if they had that far shot feat) until the wizard could get into range of their spells. That wouldn't be a fair matchup though.

Mephit
2008-08-24, 04:24 PM
A human can not have a dex of 20 at level 2 (the max level before you get another feat).

Heh. ^^ Whoops. Sorry for that. I originally had an elf in mind, but switched over to human in the end. Forgot to change dexterity back. Either way, the point is clear, but change 20 to 18, and +7 to +6. :smallamused:

The Rose Dragon
2008-08-24, 04:24 PM
They are using 32 PB Tippy. I think that allows for a 20 Dex, since the wizard in question has a 20 Int and a 20 Dex... >_>

Gray Elf.

Spiryt
2008-08-24, 04:28 PM
Fleshed it out.
Specifically countering Akimbo'sbuild (assuming we have a decent, big enough arena), I'd aim for a simple human fighter.

Str 12
Dex 20
Con 6
Int 8
Wis 16
Cha 8

1: Point Blank shot
H: Far Shot
F: Weapon Focus: Composite Longbow
Armed with a Mighty Composite Longbow +1 and the only non-core piece in this build: Arrows of flight. Not absolutely necessary, but it's nice to have.
Together worth for a range of 192 ft. (not sure how to calculate this, but...)
Whether your wizard wins init is moot. My fighter get at least 3 shots at him with a +7 modifier. (Unless you run and forfeit your Dex bonus.)

Where is Mighty enchacement ?

Akimbo
2008-08-24, 04:30 PM
@ Everyone who thinks bow are super awesome.

You do realize we are in an arena, starting a specific distance apart, and yes, if you declare that distance to be 4 and a half miles then it's a draw. How big is the floor of the Colosseum? 76m by 46m. So that's what 150ft on the short side. And that's probably the biggest arena in the world. How big do you think a dueling arena is? Do you actually think we start touching the walls?


They are using 32 PB Tippy. I think that allows for a 20 Dex, since the wizard in question has a 20 Int and a 20 Dex... >_>

However, there is no conceivable way that fighter could have a +1 Mighty Composite Longbow, since that's well beyond the wealth limit at 1st level.

-argus

Yes, the Elf with a racial bonus to Int and Dex has such scores. But again, Wealt as per level 1 32 PB. That character violates both of those rules.

fractic
2008-08-24, 04:33 PM
Let's not forget the 3-4 riding dogs that come along with every first level wizard.

Spiryt
2008-08-24, 04:34 PM
You do realize we are in an arena, starting a specific distance apart, and yes, if you declare that distance to be 4 and a half miles then it's a draw. How big is the floor of the Colosseum? 76m by 46m. So that's what 150ft on the short side. And that's probably the biggest arena in the world. How big do you think a dueling arena is? Do you actually think we start touching the walls?


And why shouldn't they start on some hilled terain, approaching each other? Fighter hunting the mage? Or mage hunting the Figher? Why suddenly Colloseum has anything to do with it?


As I said -almost any hypothetical duel like that have no sense...

The Glyphstone
2008-08-24, 04:35 PM
Let's not forget the 3-4 riding dogs that come along with every first level wizard.

Don't they have to sell their spellbook for that? Still, it is an option, especially if the wizard spends a feat slot on Spell Mastery.

Emperor Tippy
2008-08-24, 04:35 PM
They are using 32 PB Tippy. I think that allows for a 20 Dex, since the wizard in question has a 20 Int and a 20 Dex... >_>
You can't get a score over 18 on PB without Racial Bonuses. Grey Elf is +2 Int, +2 Dex. Humans have no racial attribute bonuses.[/quote]

fractic
2008-08-24, 04:36 PM
Don't they have to sell their spellbook for that?

They do but that's no problem for a character made for an arena duel.

1 memorise spells
2 sell spellbook
3 buy riding dogs
4 ???
5 profit!

arguskos
2008-08-24, 04:37 PM
You can't get a score over 18 on PB without Racial Bonuses. Grey Elf is +2 Int, +2 Dex. Humans have no racial attribute bonuses.
I knew about the Grey Elf and Human. However, since I personally dislike Point Buy, I was unaware of the restriction. Huzzah for rolling stats!

-argus

Emperor Tippy
2008-08-24, 04:44 PM
They do but that's no problem for a character made for an arena duel.

1 memorise spells
2 sell spellbook
3 buy riding dogs
4 ???
5 profit!

Or just take Spell Mastery. With 20 Int you can master 5 spells.

fractic
2008-08-24, 04:45 PM
Or just take Spell Mastery. With 20 Int you can master 5 spells.

Why waste the feat?

Emperor Tippy
2008-08-24, 04:47 PM
Why waste the feat?

True. But it does push believability just a bit much.

Mephit
2008-08-24, 04:47 PM
@ Everyone who thinks bow are super awesome.

You do realize we are in an arena, starting a specific distance apart, and yes, if you declare that distance to be 4 and a half miles then it's a draw. How big is the floor of the Colosseum? 76m by 46m. So that's what 150ft on the short side. And that's probably the biggest arena in the world. How big do you think a dueling arena is? Do you actually think we start touching the walls?

192 ft. equals 58.5 meters...So I'm not sure what's so unreasonable about that.

Also, what should we take for starting gold then? Just for the record.

Akimbo
2008-08-24, 05:10 PM
And why shouldn't they start on some hilled terain, approaching each other? Fighter hunting the mage? Or mage hunting the Figher? Why suddenly Colloseum has anything to do with it?


As I said -almost any hypothetical duel like that have no sense...

How about because an actual dual in a Colosseum makes the smallest amount of sense, however, either one hunting or be hunting makes absolutely zero sense, since without a party either of them would die in a single day outside of a city.

Higher level characters occasionally, hunt or get hunted, level 1 Wizards go to the nearest Temple and say: "You me, we go kill things for fun and profit. Hit it when it's down. And later when you become a God slap some buffs on me too."


192 ft. equals 58.5 meters...So I'm not sure what's so unreasonable about that.

Also, what should we take for starting gold then? Just for the record.

Roll? Maximum? I don't even care as long as you don't bring Riding dogs to it, I just spent 3 gold.

So just for the record, you expect to fight in the largest arena ever made designed for chariots and lions and groups of fighters for our single one on one duel, and you further expect to start literally touching the walls. Do you also want the ground to me made of Razorwire or are you not yet comfortable?

Seriously, I don't expect the fighters with swords to start in a 15ft trench exactly 5ft wide. I expect them to start within charging range of me.

Spiryt
2008-08-24, 05:17 PM
How about because an actual dual in a Colosseum makes the smallest amount of sense, however, either one hunting or be hunting makes absolutely zero sense, since without a party either of them would die in a single day outside of a city.

Higher level characters occasionally, hunt or get hunted, level 1 Wizards go to the nearest Temple and say: "You me, we go kill things for fun and profit. Hit it when it's down. And later when you become a God slap some buffs on me too."


Duel can also take place on some jousting are - big meadow somewhere outside the city. Certainly fit the "medievalic" feel of D&D better. And certaily there is possibilty of 200 or even more feet of flat place.

Although in proper duel opponents anyway, should start close to them. But "proper" duel means beting each other with sword and shield, without magic sprays.

So any rules of duels with sense can't really be stated in this cause, so Coloseum thing isn't really most probable.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-08-24, 05:23 PM
Sorry I'm not going to be able to make a char, my DM just okay'd the "Specific Creature" variant, so I'm rolling up about 60 characters in the next week. I won't be on much.

snoopy13a
2008-08-24, 05:24 PM
Ok, I have three builds on the same gimmick (High Wisdom) all with a 32 point buy (18,16,12,10,8,8)

Halfling:

10 Strength (buying 12 pts)
10 Constitution
18 Dex (buying 16 pts)
8 Int
18 Wisdom
8 Charisma

Dwarf:
12 Strength
12 Constitution
16 Dex
8 Int
18 Wisdom
6 Charisma (he might fear the elf due to his ugly looks :smalltongue: )

Elf
10 Strength
10 Constitution
18 Dex
8 Int
18 Wisdom
8 Charisma


All with iron will and improved initiative. Armed with longbowand great sword (obviously halfling gets small variants)

Dwarf gets a +8 Will (against spells). Halfling a +7 Will. Elf a +6 Will but is immune to sleep.

For a 25 point buy, I'd go with:

Halfling (or elf)

10 Strength
13 Dex
10 Constituion
8 Intelligence
18 Wisdom
8 Charisma

Same feats

Obviously, this is a pure anti level 1wizard build designed to have a better chance for will saves.

Akimbo
2008-08-24, 05:27 PM
Ok, I have three builds on the same gimmick (High Wisdom) all with a 32 point buy (18,16,12,10,8,8)

Halfling:

10 Strength (buying 12 pts)
10 Constitution
18 Dex (buying 16 pts)
8 Int
18 Wisdom
8 Charisma

Dwarf:
12 Strength
12 Constitution
16 Dex
8 Int
18 Wisdom
6 Charisma (he might fear the elf due to his ugly looks :smalltongue: )

Elf
10 Strength
10 Constitution
18 Dex
8 Int
18 Wisdom
8 Charisma


All with iron will and improved initiative. Armed with longbowand great sword (obviously halfling gets small variants)

Dwarf gets a +8 Will. Halfling a +7 Will. Elf a +6 Will but is immune to sleep.

For a 25 point buy, I'd go with:

Halfling (or elf)

10 Strength
13 Dex
10 Constituion
8 Intelligence
18 Wisdom
8 Charisma

Same feats

Okay, and in a duel setting how far do you intend to start away from me? 44 miles? 8? Seriously, if starting distance is something like 30ft, then we roll init, 1d20+18 vs 1d20+8.

Spiryt
2008-08-24, 05:36 PM
Okay, and in a duel setting how far do you intend to start away from me? 44 miles? 8? Seriously, if starting distance is something like 30ft, then we roll init, 1d20+18 vs 1d20+8.

If you want to be so atune with mano a mano rules, then your familiar is going to be more than 1 mile away from you. Beacuse duel, you know.

Anyway, how this massive initiative is gained?

+ 5 Dex
+ 4 IInitiative
+ 4 that humingbird fellow

And the rest?

Stupendous_Man
2008-08-24, 05:41 PM
jsut for the record, a group with an extra wizard is going ot do better than a group with an extra fighter.

Tehnar
2008-08-24, 05:41 PM
Wrong, to pinpoint someone is a DC 40 check if they don't move silently. If they do it's DC 40 plus check.


from the SRD:


A creature can use hearing to find an invisible creature. A character can make a Listen check for this purpose as a free action each round. A Listen check result at least equal to the invisible creature’s Move Silently check result reveals its presence. (A creature with no ranks in Move Silently makes a Move Silently check as a Dexterity check to which an armor check penalty applies.) A successful check lets a character hear an invisible creature “over there somewhere.” It’s practically impossible to pinpoint the location of an invisible creature. A Listen check that beats the DC by 20 pinpoints the invisible creature’s location.

And a I ruled that someone is not in combat if there is no fighting going on, ie no clashing of weapon nearby, or yelling etc. There were none except for the wizard trying to get away.

And the wizards stats (using elite array 16, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8)

Human
STR 8
DEX 14
CON 13
INT 16-->20
WIS 12
CHA 10
Average hp per die := 51 hp
Items: potion of cure moderate x2, headband of intelect +2, cloak of resistance +2, wand of stoneskin(10 charges), wand of lesser orb of electricity (CL 5, 25 charges), ghost shroud (gives +1 deflection to AC).

Feats:
Improved initiative
Spell mastery
Spell focus (illusion)
Scribe scroll
Improved toughness
Heighten spell
Craft golems ( A homebrewed feat that allows him to craft flesh golems, doesn't do anything combat wise)

Skills(ranks)
spellcraft: 14
concetration 14
know(arcana) 14
know(history)14
know(planes) 14
know(religion) 14

spells prepared:
6: mislead
5: waves of fatigue, mirage arcana,heightened phantasmal killer
4: dimension door, enervation, fear, greater invisibility
3: ray of exhaustion, vampiric touch, major image, dispell magic, explosive runes
2: spectral hand, ghoul touch, mirror image, invisibility, blur
1: alarm, shield, true strike, mage armor

Now I realise this is not the optimal combination of spells, feats and skills for a wizard to have. Nevertheless this is what I picked for him, as a end boss of a adventure that consisted of a EL 10, a EL 6, a EL 7, a EL 8 and him at EL 11 the final encounter.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-08-24, 05:41 PM
If you want to be so atune with mano a mano rules, then your familiar is going to be more than 1 mile away from you. Beacuse duel, you know.

Anyway, how this massive initiative is gained?

+ 5 Dex
+ 4 IInitiative
+ 4 that humingbird fellow

And the rest?+8, not four, for the bird. Elf sub level.

Spiryt
2008-08-24, 05:45 PM
+8, not four, for the bird. Elf sub level.

This is insane. What book it is, and why would anyone use other familiar when that thing is possible?
Who came up with that stuff ? :smallannoyed:

Also, what is this ''elf sub level", and why it gains +1 ?

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-08-24, 05:47 PM
This is insane. What book it is, and why would anyone use other familiar when that thing is possible?
Who came up with that stuff ? :smallannoyed:Most familiars give you a feat. The humming bird gives you Improved Initiative, some give you Toughness, Great Will, that sort of thing. There's an Elf level that doubles the boost from your familiar in RotW, IIRC. That's where it's from.

Emperor Tippy
2008-08-24, 05:47 PM
Hummingbird: +4
Improved Initiative: +4
Elf Sub Level: +4
Dex: +5

Total: +17

Where the extra +1 comes from depends on his exact build. If he uses Nerveskitter then he gets another +5 though. So that would be +22 vs. +8, he is guaranteed to win on an 7 or better and you need a 16 or better to even stand a chance.

Even with +17 vs. +8 you need a 10 or better to beat his roll, minimum. And he needs a 12 or better to guarantee a win.

Prophaniti
2008-08-24, 05:53 PM
Yeah, this is getting stuffed full of cheese, and you're only on the initiative...

Maybe you oughta just keep it core, there's too much crap out there to sift through, and as soon as you open the sluice, it gets everywhere. Besides, it's always more impressive to get a win with a limited toolset than with all the untested, barely-thought-about craziness out there.

One last note: Am I with the only group in the world that uses a d10 for Initiative roles, instead of a d20? That's the way we've always done it...

Emperor Tippy
2008-08-24, 05:57 PM
Yeah, this is getting stuffed full of cheese, and you're only on the initiative...

Maybe you oughta just keep it core, there's too much crap out there to sift through, and as soon as you open the sluice, it gets everywhere. Besides, it's always more impressive to get a win with a limited toolset than with all the untested, barely-thought-about craziness out there.

One last note: Am I with the only group in the world that uses a d10 for Initiative roles, instead of a d20? That's the way we've always done it...

Sigh. We need a name for this fallacy.

Core is flat out the most broken thing in D&D (the only things that even give it a run for its money are Serpent Kingdom and Savage Species). The PHB has more brokenness in it than any other book as both a percentage of total content and in level of brokenness.

Add to that that the wizard boosting his initiative like that isn't broken (or even optimized).

Spiryt
2008-08-24, 06:01 PM
Okay I've never seen Races of the Wild, and I assume that it's not OK to talk on the Internet about it - so just tell me - what's this "elven sub level". A feat? A variant? Level of character? Level of familiar?

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-08-24, 06:03 PM
Okay I've never seen Races of the Wild, and I assume that it's not OK to talk on the Internet about it - so just tell me - what's this "elven sub level". A feat? A variant? Level of character? Level of familiar?As an elf character taking your first level of wizard, you can eliminate some class features in exchange for others. In this case, you lose some of the benefits to your familiar in exchange for doubling the benefit it gives you(in this case +4 initiative)

emeraldstreak
2008-08-24, 06:05 PM
Everyone is forgeting one thing, the thing that makes wizards useless. Antimagic.
In an antimagic field, wizards have no spells, which means dead wizard.
Fighter wins everytime when they have antimagic on their side.

Invoke Magic from LoM lets wizards cast in AMF.

Emperor Tippy
2008-08-24, 06:09 PM
Yeah. Antimagic isn't a problem at all.

Spiryt
2008-08-24, 06:10 PM
As an elf character taking your first level of wizard, you can eliminate some class features in exchange for others. In this case, you lose some of the benefits to your familiar in exchange for doubling the benefit it gives you(in this case +4 initiative)

Okay, thanks for the info.

And to me while this variant looks definetly ok, the humingbird is a loop hole... Honestly, don't know what are you loosing, but it's not like familiar bonuses other than deliver touch spells are worth that much.

And + 8 to Initiative for Wizard is way to much. Not broken in the way some spells are, but overpowered.

snoopy13a
2008-08-24, 06:11 PM
Okay, and in a duel setting how far do you intend to start away from me? 44 miles? 8? Seriously, if starting distance is something like 30ft, then we roll init, 1d20+18 vs 1d20+8.

Let's assume I'm using the halfling and you win initiative. In fact, I'll concede initiative and pick up weapon focus longbow along with iron will. Note, I'm giving you the +8 inititive familar and the extra feat for your flaw.

And I have a 50% chance of resisting your DC 18 color spray even starting at 30ft. If I survive, I use my longbow.

For me, I'm rolling a longbow shot at a +6 modifier (+4 Dex, +1 size modifier, +1 weapon focus) against your AC of 15. I have a 60% chance of hitting. If I hit, I have a 83% chance of bringing you down (anything but a 1).

At 30 ft, I have a 50% x 60% x 83% of winning in the first round which equals about 25%. So I have a 50% chance of dying, a 25% of winning and a 25% of going to the second round.

At 70 ft, my odds of winning in the first round go up to 50% (and you can't win until the beginning of the second round).

At 150 ft, I have a free shot to bring you down so I have a 50% of winning and you have a 0% chance of winning. I could even be cheap and move back 20ft so you'll pretty much have to run to close the gap. Then I get to peg you against a AC of 10 with my +6 modifier.

You have the advantage at 30ft but I still have a 1/4 chance of winning even with your automatic win in initiative.

emeraldstreak
2008-08-24, 06:15 PM
Okay, and in a duel setting how far do you intend to start away from me? 44 miles? 8? Seriously, if starting distance is something like 30ft, then we roll init, 1d20+18 vs 1d20+8.

Funny thing is when the starting distance is long (assuming no cover) true strike may well tip archery contests in favor of the 1st lvl core wizards as well.

Spiryt
2008-08-24, 06:16 PM
For me, I'm rolling a longbow shot at a +6 modifier (+4 Dex, +1 size modifier, +1 weapon focus) against your AC of 15. I have a 60% chance of hitting. If I hit, I have a 83% chance of bringing you down (anything but a 1).


Eh, what about normal + 1 Fighters BaB? Also, with any + 1 strenght, you may consider using any throwing thing, for another + 1 to hit, and not worse damage.

Oslecamo
2008-08-24, 06:19 PM
Sigh. We need a name for this fallacy.

Core is flat out the most broken thing in D&D (the only things that even give it a run for its money are Serpent Kingdom and Savage Species). The PHB has more brokenness in it than any other book as both a percentage of total content and in level of brokenness.

Add to that that the wizard boosting his initiative like that isn't broken (or even optimized).

Thanks to splat books, Pun Pun can be done at first level.

Arcane swordsage from Tome of Battle is the most horribly broken class of all times(time stop at will? Yes thank you).

And for a suposed fallacy, surely a lot of caster lovers like to use splatbooks.

By all means, if splatbooks have as litte power as you claim, use only core, and we'll see who comes out on top, shall we?

BTW, improving iniative is optimization. Any choice you make for your character's build is optimization. It's independant from power or effeciency.

snoopy13a
2008-08-24, 06:21 PM
Eh, what about normal + 1 Fighters BaB. Also, with any + 1 strenght, you may consider using any throwing thing, for another + 1 to hit, and not worse damage.

Oops, so that's a +7 to roll. My halfling has 10 strength (18 wisdom has to hurt somewhere and I both can't invest 14 pts in Strength while investing 16 in Dex so I can't get the +1 mod).

fractic
2008-08-24, 06:23 PM
Thanks to splat books, Pun Pun can be done at first level.
pun pun is pretty much entirly non core. But he's theoretical a druid is broken in practise too.



Arcane swordsage from Tome of Battle is the most horribly broken class of all times(time stop at will? Yes thank you).


Yeah that one is just a ridiculous oversight but it's a variant rule



And for a suposed fallacy, surely a lot of caster lovers like to use splatbooks.


And so do fighters. Shock trooper, leap attack, thicket of blades etc etc. While the broken spells are mostly core (exception for celerity).

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-08-24, 06:29 PM
Pun-Pun is doable at 13 with 2 splatbooks, at 17 with one, at 4 with 3, and at 1 with 3. It's not really the books that do it. Cindy only requires Core+PHBII+Magic of Faerun+Spell Compendium. 2 of those are strong contenders for "Best book EVAR".

Emperor Tippy
2008-08-24, 06:33 PM
Thanks to splat books, Pun Pun can be done at first level.
Pun-Pun requires Serpent Kingdoms. In fact it can be done with just SK and core. That is why I put SK in the "gives core a run for its money" category.


Arcane swordsage from Tome of Battle is the most horribly broken class of all times(time stop at will? Yes thank you).
While Arcane Swordsage is broken, its not the most broken class of all time. And most of its brokenness again depends on core (Time Stop is a core spell).


And for a suposed fallacy, surely a lot of caster lovers like to use splatbooks.
Yes, they do. But make a credible fighter or bard or barbarian or monk without using any splat books. I can make a better wizard or druid or cleric or sorcerer than your guy using only core.


By all means, if splatbooks have as litte power as you claim, use only core, and we'll see who comes out on top, shall we?
I never said that splatbooks have no power. Name 1 splat book (excluding SK or SS) that you consider more broken (either is the scale of brokenness, Pun-Pun, or in the quantity of brokenness (lots of little things)) than the PHB.


BTW, improving iniative is optimization. Any choice you make for your character's build is optimization. It's independant from power or effeciency.
Not really.

Emperor Tippy
2008-08-24, 06:35 PM
Cindy only requires Core+PHBII+Magic of Faerun+Spell Compendium. 2 of those are strong contenders for "Best book EVAR".

Actually, Core+PHB2+Players Guide to FR+Complete Arcane. Everything else is just icing.

Aquillion
2008-08-24, 06:36 PM
And Druid 20 with Natural Spell requires no splatbooks at all. Seriously, you can't look at the things Druid 20 gets in core, compare them to what any non-full-casting class in core gets (or any non-full-casting / non-ToB class period, really, barring Artificers), and say that Core is balanced.

Spiryt
2008-08-24, 06:37 PM
Oops, so that's a +7 to roll. My halfling has 10 strength (18 wisdom has to hurt somewhere and I both can't invest 14 pts in Strength while investing 16 in Dex so I can't get the +1 mod).

Well, I don't know what are Wizards HP, but if he doesn't die only at rolling 1, trading the 18 Dex for 16 Dex and 12 strenght would give you hit = kill, and will leave your to hit the same, even with lower dex. It will hurt your range though.

Akimbo
2008-08-24, 06:46 PM
And a I ruled that someone is not in combat if there is no fighting going on, ie no clashing of weapon nearby, or yelling etc. There were none except for the wizard trying to get away.

So did you not read the part about beating the DC by 20 points to pinpoint location? So once again, +37 vs +11. Even if the Wizard rolled nothing but ones, and the Barbarian nothing but 20s he would still never ever for any reason know which square the Wizard was in. Face it, you completely ignored the actual rules because your entire party would have been TPKed.


And the wizards stats (using elite array 16, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8)

Human
STR 8
DEX 14
CON 13
INT 16-->20
WIS 12
CHA 10
Average hp per die := 51 hp
Items: potion of cure moderate x2, headband of intelect +2, cloak of resistance +2, wand of stoneskin(10 charges), wand of lesser orb of electricity (CL 5, 25 charges), ghost shroud (gives +1 deflection to AC).

Feats:
Improved initiative
Spell mastery
Spell focus (illusion)
Scribe scroll
Improved toughness
Heighten spell
Craft golems ( A homebrewed feat that allows him to craft flesh golems, doesn't do anything combat wise)

Skills(ranks)
spellcraft: 14
concetration 14
know(arcana) 14
know(history)14
know(planes) 14
know(religion) 14

spells prepared:
6: mislead
5: waves of fatigue, mirage arcana,heightened phantasmal killer
4: dimension door, enervation, fear, greater invisibility
3: ray of exhaustion, vampiric touch, major image, dispell magic, explosive runes
2: spectral hand, ghoul touch, mirror image, invisibility, blur
1: alarm, shield, true strike, mage armor

Wow, okay, maybe I would have to change the prepped spells a little bit to not lose, those are the stupidest choices I have ever seen.

For starters though, aside from the really crappy Int score, and the fact that you didn't even buy a +4 Int item like every Wizard has at that level, did it occur to you to use any of those wands at any point? And why did you prepare 12 defensive spells and only two good ones? Heck you are a Illusion mage, you could have at least cast Greater Mirror Image or Displacement.

Seriously you are way to nice to your players. The could have actually stood around and done nothing and he never would have killed a single one. Ghoul Touch and Phantasmal on the Barbarian. That leaves the following spells that actually incapacitate or damage anyone: Explosive Ruins, Vampiric Touch.

I could beat that character with five 25 PB level 8 Commoners without WBL. He physically cannot kill more then two of them without resorting to melee.

My infinite Spear attack is to great for you.


Now I realise this is not the optimal combination of spells, feats and skills for a wizard to have. Nevertheless this is what I picked for him, as a end boss of a adventure that consisted of a EL 10, a EL 6, a EL 7, a EL 8 and him at EL 11 the final encounter.

I'm sorry, I usually prepare enough offense to kill 5 commoners, the idea that a level 11 Wizard could wake up in the morning and prepare spells that won't allow him to do so is so crazy I never even thought of it.

Seriously, you'd have done a lot better with spells of:

Silent Image X6 (you forgot a level 1 spell)
Invisibility X5
Major Image X5
Dimension Door X2, Greater Mirror Image X1, Greater Invisibility
Teleport, Permanent Image X2
Mislead.

That way you could have at least wasted all the casters spells so that they would (falsely) believe that there was ever even the slightest chance of dieing.

Hell, everyone else could have sat down and taken a nap, it only takes one level 8 character to kill this pathetic excuse for an encounter.

snoopy13a
2008-08-24, 06:53 PM
Well, I don't know what are Wizards HP, but if he doesn't die only at rolling 1, trading the 18 Dex for 16 Dex and 12 strenght would give you hit = kill, and will leave your to hit the same, even with lower dex. It will hurt your range though.

Or I guess I could dump Constitution to 8. It would still leave me with 9 hitpoints which would usually be enough to survive a heavy crossbow shot if the wizard decides to go that route. The wizard has 6 Constitution because he is putting all his points into Dex and Intelligence. He has 6 Strength and Const; 20 Dex and intelligence and 8 wis and charisma. Thus, he only has 2 hitpoints.


So new stats should be:

12 Strength
18 Dex
8 Constitution
8 Intelligence
18 Wisdom
8 Charisma

And after the wizard casts colorspray (which I hopefully save), walk within 10 feet and throw a dagger at him for 1d3+1 damage?

Akimbo
2008-08-24, 06:55 PM
Okay, now as regards Init, and Familiar.

1) There have been several mistakes made, the level one elf sub level only grants an extra first level spell per day, a few known, and the search skill as a class skill.

The level 3 ability is the one that double familiar bonus, and it does give up deliver touch spells.

2) My Init is +5 Dex + 4 Improved Init + 4 Familiar +5 Nerveskitter = +18.

3) You guys do know you are attacking against AC 19 Minimum right? AC 23 is also possible, depending on the rules.

And yes, starting with whatever range is optimal for you is stupid.

I also don't start duels with Cragtop Archers on top of mountains and me in a perfectly open perfectly flat plain with no cover. Because that's stupid. I don't demand that Fighters start outside of charge distance when I fight them, why should you start outside of spell distance?

snoopy13a
2008-08-24, 06:58 PM
3) You guys do know you are attacking against AC 19 Minimum right? AC 23 is also possible, depending on the rules.



How are you getting 19 AC?

You have a base AC of 15. You can't prebuff because that would give you an extra round that we wouldn't have. You can use mage armor on your first round to get 19 AC if you want.

Spiryt
2008-08-24, 07:00 PM
And after the wizard casts colorspray (which I hopefully save), walk within 10 feet and throw a dagger at him for 1d3+1 damage?

Well, isn't sling better? Or javelin?


3) You guys do know you are attacking against AC 19 Minimum right? AC 23 is also possible, depending on the rules.



Why 19 AC, BTW? From Dexterity and from what? If it's magic armour, then it's perfeclty OK for duel to start futher away.

IF you are able to enter the arena with your magic already cast, why opponent can't stay possibly away from you?

Akimbo
2008-08-24, 07:03 PM
That would be from Mage Armor that lasts for an hour.

I bet you also complain in level 20 Duels when Wizards walk into the arena with several buffs up, despite that their durations are measured in days.

Spiryt
2008-08-24, 07:08 PM
That would be from Mage Armor that lasts for an hour.

I bet you also complain in level 20 Duels when Wizards walk into the arena with several buffs up, despite that their durations are measured in days.

Well, I see it that way -

If Wizard is already buffed, and generally fight is with no mercy or favours, then Fighter stays far away and shoots as soon as he sees Wizard appearance. If it's necessary to him, I see that snoopy is planning it other way, I don't care.

Why only Wizard can be prepared?

EDIT: If you want a fight from some set distance, when both duelers bow to each other before fight starts, and all is that way, then Wizard can't have buffs before.

Flickerdart
2008-08-24, 07:11 PM
Well, I see it that way -

If Wizard is already buffed, and generally fight is with no mercy or favours, then Fighter stays far away and shoots as soon as he sees Wizard appearance. If it's necessary to him, I see that snoopy is planning it other way, I don't care.

Why only Wizard can be prepared?
Hey, the Fighter can do whatever he wants an hour before the battle too. By that I don't mean set traps or anything. Just prepare using Fighter class features like what the Wizard does with his.

Also, what Frantic said. The armour is also likely better than just a +4 AC.

fractic
2008-08-24, 07:12 PM
Why only Wizard can be prepared?

The fighter is wearing his armor right? That takes longer to put on than it takes the wizard to cast mage armor.

snoopy13a
2008-08-24, 07:12 PM
That would be from Mage Armor that lasts for an hour.

I bet you also complain in level 20 Duels when Wizards walk into the arena with several buffs up, despite that their durations are measured in days.

No, it simply isn't fair for a character to have a free round. I wouldn't duel under that circumstance because it gives your character a free round to buff up. That would be akin to me starting the duel right after drinking a potion of Owl's Wisdom.

Tehnar
2008-08-24, 07:13 PM
So did you not read the part about beating the DC by 20 points to pinpoint location? So once again, +37 vs +11. Even if the Wizard rolled nothing but ones, and the Barbarian nothing but 20s he would still never ever for any reason know which square the Wizard was in. Face it, you completely ignored the actual rules because your entire party would have been TPKed.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#invisibility
Look at the fourth paragraph, the DC for the barbarian was, his move silently check +20. Since he is moving at full speed, -5 to his MS check. For a grand total of +17 (2 dex - 5 penalty +20 to pinpoint). If you carefully read my previous post you would realize that.

The fight lasted over 20 rounds, using up 15+ charges of his wand of lesser orb of eletricity (90% of which hit) and 2 charges of the stoneskin wand.

As I said there were better choices for spells, but it ended up a fun encounter for me, and I think for my players.

Flickerdart
2008-08-24, 07:15 PM
No, it simply isn't fair for a character to have a free round. I wouldn't duel under that circumstance because it gives your character a free round to buff up. That would be akin to me starting the duel right after drinking a potion of Owl's Wisdom.
Oh, we get potions too, do we? Potions of spells available two levels later than the Wizard is? How is that even pretending to be fair?

snoopy13a
2008-08-24, 07:18 PM
Oh, we get potions too, do we? Potions of spells available two levels later than the Wizard is? How is that even pretending to be fair?

I'm not saying it is fair, I was highlighting how one can't take rounds to buff oneself up beforehand and then call it a fair duel. Simply that a person cannot assume that they automactically get free rounds to buff up without any consequence whatsoever. If the Wizard is in a bar and a random fight breaks out, does he get a free round to cast Mage Armor? Of course not.

Spiryt
2008-08-24, 07:20 PM
The fighter is wearing his armor right? That takes longer to put on than it takes the wizard to cast mage armor.

If Wizard want's he also can wear armor here. (Considering armored duel)

It won't help him at all, you say ?

Well, armor won't help Fighter much too in this particular scenario.

He should indeed better spend his cash on Potion of Owl's Wisdom and stuff before battle start. (As armor is equipment, not class ability)

If we consider that Wizard can have Mage's Armor on himself beacuse he cast it in some point in the past, we could also assume that Fighter have only 2 HP, beacuse he lost them, or have eaten something non fresh. Or that Wizard don't have spells anymore, cause he used them already.

Again, everything breaks on hypothetical rules of such duel, and why they should be like that, or not the other way.

fractic
2008-08-24, 07:21 PM
If Wizard want's he also can wear armor here. (Considering armored duel)


So why is it ok to take a few minutes to put on armor but not ok to cast a spell?

Spiryt
2008-08-24, 07:22 PM
So why is it ok to take a few minutes to put on armor but not ok to cast a spell?

See my post, especially the last part.

Flickerdart
2008-08-24, 07:23 PM
So why is it ok to take a few minutes to put on armor but not ok to cast a spell?
Because otherwise the fighter will fail his Will save against crying like a little girl in the corner.

fractic
2008-08-24, 07:23 PM
See my post, especially the last part.

That is no reason. Wizards have long lasting buffs up when they expect to need them, it's what wizards do.

Akimbo
2008-08-24, 07:25 PM
No, it simply isn't fair for a character to have a free round. I wouldn't duel under that circumstance because it gives your character a free round to buff up. That would be akin to me starting the duel right after drinking a potion of Owl's Wisdom.

Feel free? You do know what duration means right? So if something lasts two days, and you can cast it every day, then it in fact is always there and not a "free round."

Spiryt
2008-08-24, 07:27 PM
Because otherwise the fighter will fail his Will save against crying like a little girl in the corner.

What it exactly brings to the thread?


That is no reason. Wizards have long lasting buffs up when they expect to need them, it's what wizards do.

Then, if Fighter thinks it will be necessary, he sells armor, and get some potion buffs.

It's theoritically OK with the rules, but most probably not OK with the whole duel scheme.

snoopy13a
2008-08-24, 07:31 PM
That is no reason. Wizards have long lasting buffs up when they expect to need them, it's what wizards do.

This might be a valid point if the buff lasts for all day. However, it only lasts for an hour.

Basically, the wizard gets a free round to better himself that the fighter doesn't.

Look, my fighter is using core stats and a core race with no buffs, no armor and simply a longbow, greatsword and a few throwing daggers. I'm even willing to concede a starting distance of 30 feet so that the wizard can use color spray in the first round.

The wizard gets a non-core race, non-core familiar that gives him an automatic initiative roll, flaws to get more feats, and an extra round to buff?

fractic
2008-08-24, 07:32 PM
Then, if Fighter thinks it will be necessary, he sells armor, and get some potion buffs.

It's theoritically OK with the rules, but most probably not OK with the whole duel scheme.

And that is perfectly fine. Of course the armor has to be bought with the starting gold and selling it is only going to reduce the amount of gold the fighter can spend.

snoopy13a
2008-08-24, 07:32 PM
Feel free? You do know what duration means right? So if something lasts two days, and you can cast it every day, then it in fact is always there and not a "free round."

It lasts an hour at level 1. A day is 24 hours. If you were a level 20 wizard then it would certainly be plausable for you to have it up. But you are level 1.

fractic
2008-08-24, 07:34 PM
It lasts an hour at level 1. A day is 24 hours. If you were a level 20 wizard then it would certainly be plausable for you to have it up. But you are level 1.

An hour is very long. It's not like the wizard and the fighter just materialise out of thin air and start duking it out.

Spiryt
2008-08-24, 07:34 PM
Anyway, my whole point was that if Wizard can prepare his class abilites (MA) then fighter can prepare also. So stay away from the Mage's range, on the beginning.

It can be postulated, that this shouldn't be so in duel, but again, no one knows why duel rules should be that way, and not another.

Akimbo
2008-08-24, 07:39 PM
non-core race

It's a Core race, just so you know. You are also free to choose any other race if you think it's worth your while, the point is it's not.

Kyeudo
2008-08-24, 07:42 PM
Well, this thread has degenerated into a set of duels between optimized fighters and optimized wizards. Not that it started too much better, but at least then it was interesting.

If you need a series of duels between characters of a broad range of classes, most fairly optimized, and all at Level 1,2,&3, check out here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=54003). It's the archives for the Arena.

We have a consistant record with melee characters. If it's not a Barbarian or a ToB character, a melee can't beat a caster without a good deal of luck. Fighters have trouble beating other melee builds. And this is at level 1, where Melee is supposed to rock the house.


The reason that Wizards take Fighters to task when they can be bothered to try is that a Batman Wizard's generalized preparations for a single day include enough counters to common threats that they can either defeat or escape at least one encounter, hide out for a day, and come back prepared more specifically in the next encounter. He may not have an instant win combo prepped the first time around, but he has enough to ensure that he gets a second chance.

The Fighter can never adapt his way around any obstacle. He's locked into a build and can only try harder applications of brute power to try to solve his problems. To top it off, the Fighter isn't even the best at solving a problem with brute force. That goes to the Barbarian.

Oh, and Akimbo is right. That wizard couldn't have threatened a village of commoners, let alone a party of adventurers. Hardly any attack spells worth casting, and he cast those on the targets most able to resist them.

tyckspoon
2008-08-24, 07:46 PM
There *is* a relatively standard duel ruleset, although it's normally applied to much higher-level characters. Our local Arena people could probably explain it better than I can.. the important part is that it does include either a buff round (where the competitors can see each other but may not take direct action against each other) or a number of things allowed to be pre-cast/activated before the fighters ever step into the arena. Sometimes both. In that situation, the Fighter would be well advised to acquire a potion of Resistance, which is well within the reach of a level 1 character.

Edit: Ha, I'm thinking of some other people's dueling rules. The ongoing Arena here does not specify a buff round and explicitly precludes pre-fight effects.

snoopy13a
2008-08-24, 07:54 PM
An hour is very long. It's not like the wizard and the fighter just materialise out of thin air and start duking it out.

But it is certainly plausable for them to meet and fight without the other having time to prepare with spells and or potions. Suppose they have a grudge against each other and meet in a bar, or along a path. It is highly unlikely that a level 1 wizard would be buffed beforehand as this meeting would be a surprise. Now, if the wizard was seeking out the fighter beforehand, then it would be plausable to have mage armor up. In an honorable duel with preset conditions, I would insist on a non-buffing rule beforehand. Otherwise, the wizard can cast both shield and mage armor beforehand leaving the fighter with at most a 30% chance of hitting (+4 Dex, +1 small, +1 fighter, +1 throwing +1 weapon focus (if the fighter has weapon focus in a throwing weapon) against a DC of 23 or a 20% chance with a longbow.

Still, with every advantage given to the wizard, the fighter still has a 15% chance of winning with a throwing weapon or a 8% chance of winning with a longbow in the first round.

Look, even without buffing, the wizard has a 50% chance of winning in the first round anyway (well technically 2nd round as they have to wait a round to CDG).

turkishproverb
2008-08-24, 08:12 PM
Ok, then. IN the time before the fight, the Fighter convinces several people to attack the wizard, forcing him to use up spells to survive.

After all, it's something he can do before the match starts, so it's perfectly fair.

snoopy13a
2008-08-24, 08:13 PM
Actually, I'll let the wizard buff up with Shield and Mage Armor before hand and we'll start 30 ft apart.

Round 1: Wizard either moves within 10 or 15 feet and casts color spray
I have a 50% chance of making my Will Save, otherwise, game over.

If I survive, I run away to 90-95 ft away.

Round 2: If Wizard has sleep then he can cast. If he does, I run away again to at least 170 feet away and sleep is wasted.

If Wizard does a double move, he is 30-35 feet away. Then I run away again to 110-115 feet.

If Wizard runs, he can close the gap but I'll have a DC 18 shot (40%) on him.

If Wizard moves 30 feet and shoots a Heavy Crossbow then he has a 55% chance of hitting with a 10% chance of a crit. A crit will likely bring down the halfling (needs 5 or better) or a 9 or 10 on a non-crit (Strength mods don't reduce Heavy Crossbow damage right?). This gives the wizard a 20% chance or so of winning that round. If the wizard misses or doesn't do 9 damage then I move back 20 ft and shoot him with the longbow giving me a 17% chance of winning. However, I also get a free shot the next round because the wizard has to reload his crossbow if he wants to shoot it again (unless you're giving the wizard two loaded heavy crossbows) and is 80 feet away so he can't use colorspray*.

*Although, I suppose that I could make out whether or not the wizard is carrying a crossbow and if he is, he'd probably have an advantage in a shooting war due to his AC 23 versus my AC 15. So I'd suppose then I'd just throw something at the wizard in round 1 and hope I hit with my 30% chance.

However, I could also buy a chain shirt boosting my AC to 19 without hurting my Dex or movement. I suppose I could also buy a composite longbow of +1 Strength modifier as well (it would do 1d6+1 damage as I could apply my strength modifier). However, this along with a couple of javelins and a shortsword would be about 315 gold. Not sure if this would be within the limits.

Flickerdart
2008-08-24, 08:13 PM
Ok, then. IN the time before the fight, the Fighter convinces several people to attack the wizard, forcing him to use up spells to survive.

After all, it's something he can do before the match starts, so it's perfectly fair.
The Wizard had a Candle of Invocation and summons a Balor. After all, it's something he can do before the match starts, so it's fair.

This is a 1v1 duel. It doesn't work that way, Mr. Proverb.

fractic
2008-08-24, 08:19 PM
Ok, then. IN the time before the fight, the Fighter convinces several people to attack the wizard, forcing him to use up spells to survive.

After all, it's something he can do before the match starts, so it's perfectly fair.

The big difference of course that your idea is something both the wizard and the fighter can do. Casting spells is a class feature of the wizard on the other hand. The wizard supporters basically say it's unfair to deny the wizard his class features. The fighter supporters on the other hand think it's unfair that the wizard gets to buff.

And they are damn right it's unfair. Spell casting is just a lot better of a class feature then full BAB and some feats.

turkishproverb
2008-08-24, 08:33 PM
The Wizard had a Candle of Invocation and summons a Balor. After all, it's something he can do before the match starts, so it's fair.

This is a 1v1 duel. It doesn't work that way, Mr. Proverb.

Wanna bet? A character can convince people to rough someone up at level 1.

Swok
2008-08-24, 09:03 PM
Wanna bet? A character can convince people to rough someone up at level 1.

And with a 20 int and 5 more skills to get, the wizard might just have some ranks in bluff or diplomacy and do it better than the fighter. Seriously, they can both get thugs to punch the other person. That isn't a fighter strength.

Inhuman Bot
2008-08-24, 09:06 PM
Wanna bet? A character can convince people to rough someone up at level 1.

That may be, but as it was said the wizard could summon a balor, but then it is not 1v1.

Akimbo
2008-08-24, 09:26 PM
Yes, a Fighter has a chance to win.

Yes this chance is less then 50%.

Yes, if I subbed in a Barbarian/Fighter/Rogue/Cleric/Druid instead of a Wizard it would easily crush your Fighter that you designed specifically to counter my Wizard.

No one ever claimed you didn't have a chance. I personally Claimed that spellcasters are equal to or better then Fighters at level 1 going up, and are never behind at any point.

The fact that it takes a Fighter you would never even play in game to still not even have less then a 50% chance just proves my point.

Compare that to my Wizard, who with a simple Feat substitution and a Friend (Tippy, looking at you) I would play in a regular game.

snoopy13a
2008-08-24, 09:38 PM
Yes, a Fighter has a chance to win.

Yes this chance is less then 50%.

Yes, if I subbed in a Barbarian/Fighter/Rogue/Cleric/Druid instead of a Wizard it would easily crush your Fighter that you designed specifically to counter my Wizard.

No one ever claimed you didn't have a chance. I personally Claimed that spellcasters are equal to or better then Fighters at level 1 going up, and are never behind at any point.

The fact that it takes a Fighter you would never even play in game to still not even have less then a 50% chance just proves my point.

Compare that to my Wizard, who with a simple Feat substitution and a Friend (Tippy, looking at you) I would play in a regular game.

No, you said that a level 1 wizard would almost always win. Even with the concession of you chosing starting distance and allowing two buff up spells, my figher still has a 15% chance winning in the first round and a 50% chance of losing, I wouldn't call this almost always.

Granted, my build is really idiotic for anything outside a wizard vs. fighter fight as no fighter would ever have 18 Wisdom 8 Constitution and Iron Will.

Actually, I would play a 18 Dex halfling fighter in-game though because I'm a bit nutty and romantic. Of course, there'd be no way that I'd have 18 Wisdom or Iron Will.

Still, it was a fun intellectual exercise on both of our parts.

shadow_archmagi
2008-08-24, 09:42 PM
No, you said that a level 1 wizard would almost always win. Even with concession of you chosing starting distance and allowing two buff up spells, my figher still has a 15% chance winning in the first round and a 50% chance of losing, I wouldn't call this almost always.

Granted, my build is really idiotic for anything outside a wizard vs. fighter fight as no fighter would ever have 18 Wisdom 8 Constitution and Iron Will.

Actually, I would play a 18 Dex halfling fighter in-game though because I'm a bit nutty and romantic. Of course, there'd be no way that I'd have 18 Wisdom or Iron Will.

Still, it was a fun intellectual exercise on both of our parts.


You seem to have won; although I'd say the wizard still comes out ahead on the grounds that he was not a custom-tooled specialist made to kill level 1 fighters.

I mean, you won the fight, but the wizard wins at life.

turkishproverb
2008-08-24, 09:44 PM
That may be, but as it was said the wizard could summon a balor, but then it is not 1v1.

And? It'd be 1v1 when we stepped up against each other. I see no difference between me using townsfolk to weaken the wizard and the wizard buffing before I fight.

Akimbo
2008-08-24, 09:47 PM
No, you said that a level 1 wizard would almost always win. Even with the concession of you chosing starting distance and allowing two buff up spells, my figher still has a 15% chance winning in the first round and a 50% chance of losing, I wouldn't call this almost always.

Granted, my build is really idiotic for anything outside a wizard vs. fighter fight as no fighter would ever have 18 Wisdom 8 Constitution and Iron Will.

Actually, I would play a 18 Dex halfling fighter in-game though because I'm a bit nutty and romantic. Of course, there'd be no way that I'd have 18 Wisdom or Iron Will.

Still, it was a fun intellectual exercise on both of our parts.

No I said he would beat 95% of opponents. And that he would almost always win against any kind of normal opponent.

You are an Opponent that I win more then half the time against, therefore quite possibly part of that 95%. I think only Druids aren't in that category. Maybe they are. Maybe you aren't. Whatever. The fact remains true that I would sub out Fey Mysteries for Greater Spell Focus and play this character tomorrow at any level. You would never play an 18 Wisdom 18 Dex Halfling.

Stupendous_Man
2008-08-24, 09:47 PM
And? It'd be 1v1 when we stepped up against each other. I see no difference between me using townsfolk to weaken the wizard and the wizard buffing before I fight.

i wasn't aware that it was a fighter class features to assemble pitchfork wielding mobs.

Inhuman Bot
2008-08-24, 09:48 PM
And? It'd be 1v1 when we stepped up against each other. I see no difference between me using townsfolk to weaken the wizard and the wizard buffing before I fight.

Wrong.
Using buffs: 1vs1, still.
Recruting townsfolk: 9~vs1
In one versus one, it's one, singular person, versus another singular person

snoopy13a
2008-08-24, 09:48 PM
You seem to have won; although I'd say the wizard still comes out ahead on the grounds that he was not a custom-tooled specialist made to kill level 1 fighters.

I mean, you won the fight, but the wizard wins at life.

Actually, I probably only win the fight about 25% of the time (too much number crunching for me to get an exact number but it is at least 15% and of course less then 50%).

Also, would there be a more optimal build for a wizard in this situation? I suppose the wizard could go with high dex and constitution and 11 intelligence and try to shoot me with a collection of crossbows but I doubt that would be more optimal then a 50% chance to kill with colorspray on round 1.

Emperor Tippy
2008-08-24, 09:55 PM
I suppose the wizard could go with high dex and constitution and 11 intelligence and try to shoot me with a collection of crossbows but I doubt that would be more optimal then a 50% chance to kill with colorspray on round 1.

And it would be a lot less playable long term. A 20 Dex, 20 Int, 6 Con, wizard is something I could play from level 1 on without a real problem (with enough sources at least).

turkishproverb
2008-08-24, 10:01 PM
Wrong.
Using buffs: 1vs1, still.
Recruting townsfolk: 9~vs1
In one versus one, it's one, singular person, versus another singular person

Ah, so then I could start a fire outside his room while he slept? Burn his spellbook?

tyckspoon
2008-08-24, 10:06 PM
Also, would there be a more optimal build for a wizard in this situation? I suppose the wizard could go with high dex and constitution and 11 intelligence and try to shoot me with a collection of crossbows but I doubt that would be more optimal then a 50% chance to kill with colorspray on round 1.

Maybe being a gnome, but only if the point-buy is high enough to still afford an 18 Int and Dex. Which is.. just possible at 32. All other stats will remain at base. Lower pointbuy values require the Elf to get that high. Loses a point on initiative, but gets back to normal Con, so you need a 4 or better for your kill, and gains a point of base AC to compensate for the slightly lower Dex. So better survivability, and the gnomish bonus on Illusion DCs keeps the Color Spray at the same power. In this particular specialized situation the gnome is probably better off, as he does not have too much worse of a chance to lose initiative while it becomes significantly less likely that the halfling can one-shot him.

snoopy13a
2008-08-24, 10:08 PM
No I said he would beat 95% of opponents. And that he would almost always win against any kind of normal opponent.

You are an Opponent that I win more then half the time against, therefore quite possibly part of that 95%. I think only Druids aren't in that category. Maybe they are. Maybe you aren't. Whatever. The fact remains true that I would sub out Fey Mysteries for Greater Spell Focus and play this character tomorrow at any level. You would never play an 18 Wisdom 18 Dex Halfling.

You'd probably have trouble against clerics and druids. A halfling cleric or druid with 18 Wis and iron will would have a +9 to will save. A dwarf variant would have +10. Still, you win on first round 40% of the time against the halfling and 35% of the time against the dwarf.

Inhuman Bot
2008-08-24, 10:16 PM
Ah, so then I could start a fire outside his room while he slept? Burn his spellbook?

yup. It wouldn't be a duel, but this was defined as 1vs1, not a duel.

snoopy13a
2008-08-24, 10:25 PM
Maybe being a gnome, but only if the point-buy is high enough to still afford an 18 Int and Dex. Which is.. just possible at 32. All other stats will remain at base. Lower pointbuy values require the Elf to get that high. Loses a point on initiative, but gets back to normal Con, so you need a 4 or better for your kill, and gains a point of base AC to compensate for the slightly lower Dex. So better survivability, and the gnomish bonus on Illusion DCs keeps the Color Spray at the same power. In this particular specialized situation the gnome is probably better off, as he does not have too much worse of a chance to lose initiative while it becomes significantly less likely that the halfling can one-shot him.

You won't have that elf subtrait thing so your hummingbird familar will only give a +4 bonus so you'll lose +5 initiative. Still, you'll most likely win it as you'll have improved initiative and the halfling won't (halfling has iron will and weapon focus javelin as his two feats).

That will bring me down from a 15% chance to one shot you in round 1 to about a 8-9% chance. I'll still one-shot with a 3 or 4 with my javelin (1d4+1 damage) and there is also the chance of a crit hit ( causing a 2-4 for me to win). So that would probably be a better build in this theorectical situation.