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weenie
2008-08-24, 02:11 PM
Since there's no other open gestalt thread and I just can't keep this to myself, I present you my new creation:

Sir Feinting Slashalot
{table=head]Level|Class1|Class2|Feats|SA|Skirmish

1st|Barbarian|Scout|Weapon Focus(Scimitar),Combat Expertise|0|+1d6/0

2nd|Swashbuckler|Scout|Weapon Finesse(B)|0|+1d6/0

3rd|Swashbuckler|Scout|Dodge|0|+1d6/+1

4th|Beguiler|Ranger||0|+1d6/+1

5th|Beguiler|Ranger|Two Weapon Fighting(B)|0|+1d6/+1

6th|Beguiler|Ranger|Mobility|0|+1d6/+1

7th|Rogue|Dervish||+1d6|+1d6/+1

8th|Rogue|Dervish||+1d6|+1d6/+1

9th|Rogue|Dervish|Swift Hunter|+2d6|+2d6/+1

10th|Beguiler|Dervish||+2d6|+2d6/+1

11th|Beguiler|Dervish||+2d6|+2d6/+1

12th|Beguiler|Dervish|Improved Feint|+2d6|+2d6/+1

13th|Rogue|Dervish||+2d6|+2d6/+1

14th|Rogue|Dervish||+3d6|+2d6/+1

15th|Rogue|Dervish|Daring Outlaw|+5d6|+2d6/+1

16th|Rogue|Ranger||+5d6|+2d6/+2

17th|Rogue|Ranger||+6d6|+2d6/+2

18th|Rogue|Ranger|Improved Two-Weapon Fighting(B),Greater Two-Weapon Fighting|+6d6|+3d6/+2

19th|Rogue|Dervish||+7d6|+3d6/+2

20th|Swashbuckler|Scout|Swift Ambusher|+7d6|+5d6/+4[/table]

Also take the skill trick Group Fake-Out somewhere on the way, and use the Ph2 Ranger variant.

What this build can do is dishing out 12d6 precision damage/hit, feinting as a swift action(against multiple foes and it can take 10 on it), a bit of spellcasting, and the ability to perform 12 attacks/round once a day. Besides that it has full BaB, lots of skillpoints, a speed of 65' and good hit dice. Comments are welcome.

CASTLEMIKE
2008-08-24, 03:00 PM
Interesting depending on the race, alignment and ability scores you could do a lot with Factotum -3 and (Chameleon - 3 or Ur Priest -3) instead of Beguiler -6.

Consider taking that first level of Barbarian at at L-1 instead of L-20 for a few more hit points and fast movement through out the build.

weenie
2008-08-24, 03:15 PM
Interesting depending on the race, alignment and ability scores you could do a lot with Factotum -3 and (Chameleon - 3 or Ur Priest -3) instead of Beguiler -6.

Not really familiar with any of those classes, would they still let me feint as a swift action? That's the point of those 6 levels of Beguiler.


Consider taking that first level of Barbarian at at L-1 instead of L-20 for a few more hit points and fast movement through out the build.

Not a bad idea *edit*

CASTLEMIKE
2008-08-24, 03:22 PM
Chameleon class at WOTC:

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20041210b&page=1

Chameleon Handbook at WOTC:

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20041210b&page=1

Factotum Handbook at WOTC:

http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=360082

Post #3, #5, #6 and #8 are of particular interest and may result in some class changes to the builds.

Martial Adepts and the Warblade class at WOTC (Might be nice for a few level dips or more) someone might post a link to all the martial adept maneuvers on WOTC:

You probably want Invisible Blade for feinting.


http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060802a&page=2

Edit: Unless you are a Human or in a game that doesn't enforce the multiclassing rules (Quite a few games :smallsmile: stealing the thunder from the Humans) the rule doesn't apply with PRCs but you are using mostly base classes.

Jack_Simth
2008-08-24, 03:31 PM
Comments are welcome.
You'd better hope your DM isn't using multiclassing XP penalties - you're a Barbarian-1/Swashbuckler-3/Scout 4/Ranger-6/Beguiler-6/Rogue-10/Dervish-10. Now, assuming for the minute that the Dervish is a PrC and doesn't invoke multiclassing XP penalties, your "center" is Ranger-6/Beguiler-6 - so you've got Barbarian, Swashbuckler, Scout, and Rogue that are more than 1 level away from that - which means you'd be eating an 80% xp penalty.

RTGoodman
2008-08-24, 03:51 PM
How are you getting the Swift Ambusher feat at level 20? You'd have to wait until 21. (Or do you know even get feats normally in Epic? I don't know how it works...)

This isn't a BAD build, but I can't help feeling it's not as good as it could be. I mean, there's gotta be a better way to get Sneak Attack (et al) that taking 6 levels of Beguiler and relying on a lot of skill tricks, feinting, and such.


Off the top of my head (and it's certainly not completely optimized) I'd probably go with:

Lion Totem Barbarian 1/Fighter 4/Full BAB Class(es) or PrC(s) X//Rogue X/Sneak-Attack Boosting PrC X

I don't know about the PrCs off the top of my head, but there should be at least one somewhere that gets SA at level 1, meaning you'd have SA +11d6 at 20th level with JUST those two. For the Full BAB side, you don't need much more than standard ubercharger feats (Power Attack, Leap Attack, Shock Trooper) and maybe Neraph Charge (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Neraph_Charge,PlH) if you can swing the Wis 15 requirement (skills should be fine with 8+Int each level). If you can, throw in Travel Devotion (I think that's what it's called) for extra movement, maybe a Belt of Battle, and perhaps even some tattoos or dorjes of the psionic powers hustle and enlarge (with Use Psionic Device). It's a little MAD, though, and trying to keep from having two PrCs at a level could be difficult.

If you wanted, you could instead do something like LT Barbarian 1/Psychic Warrior X/Psionic PrC X//Rogue 1/Sneak Attack Fighter 19. That'll give +11d6 SA, pounce, full BAB, lots o' manifesting, occasional rage, and some other goodies depending on PrCs. Feats would be the same but at a slower pace, though PsyWar helps that (and being a human would, too). Probably not quite as MAD as the other build, but not as many skills and more bookkeeping.

Jack_Simth
2008-08-24, 04:23 PM
A handful of other gestalt builds...

Sorcerer-5/Mage of the Arcane Order-10/Archmage-5//Paladin-5/Monk-15; take the Aescetic Mage feat at 6th. Charisma to AC, Charisma to saves, Charisma as a primary casting stat. Spontaneous casting, but can pull up any Sor/Wiz spell in the PHB on a round's notice. Decent Hit Die (5d10+15d8), Good Will and Fort for 20 levels, good Reflex for 15. You have an Arcanist that's really hard to kill (race Human or Strongheart Halfling (for the bonus feat);
feats:
1) Arcane Preparation
HB) Cooperative Metamagic.
3) Arbitrary Metamagic feat
6) Aescetic Mage
9) Skill Focus (Spellcraft)
12) Spell Focus (Pick one)
15) Spell Focus (Pick another)
18) Open
... plus the two Mage of the Arcane Order bonus metamagic feats, not specified. Plus the monk goodies.

Druid-20//Ninja-20
d8 hit die, all good saves, sudden strike on Wildshape (and you get Pounce from Wildshape), Wis to AC, and a full caster (Wis-based). Only needed feat is Natural Spell at 6th. PrC's aren't necessary, but a few levels in Contemplative on the Druid side would be useful - for the domain spells, primarily.

CasESenSITItiVE
2008-08-24, 08:52 PM
i have been having a lot of fun with a paladin 6//bard 6 character i've been playing (the dm let me waive the "non-lawful" rule on the bard on the merits of being a cool idea), using rtg's warleader variant and making use of the bards various buffs

shadow_archmagi
2008-08-24, 08:57 PM
As long as we're on the topic of gestalt, what synergizes well with Beguiler? Illusion and mind-affecting are loads of fun, but less than epic against undead in a dungeon crawl, which happens from time to time.

Chronicled
2008-08-24, 09:06 PM
As long as we're on the topic of gestalt, what synergizes well with Beguiler? Illusion and mind-affecting are loads of fun, but less than epic against undead in a dungeon crawl, which happens from time to time.

Warblade and Factotum. You might think that Factotum's skill point overlap makes it a worse pick than Warblade, but if you're focusing on the Beguiler side it's superb synergy (where in that case Warblade only gives strong Fort save, d12 HD, and a backup option for critters immune to your spells); the attributes needed are identical (unlike Warblade), you expand your skill list, add a few utility "spells", become more survivable, and get extra actions.

Also, using gestalt to pick up Rainbow Servant without lost caster levels is quite nice.

Edea
2008-08-24, 09:07 PM
As long as we're on the topic of gestalt, what synergizes well with Beguiler? Illusion and mind-affecting are loads of fun, but less than epic against undead in a dungeon crawl, which happens from time to time.

Psions, Artificers, Archivists, Warblades, Factotums, and Duskblades are all decent enough choices for the other side.

Rei_Jin
2008-08-24, 09:08 PM
I've also seen some nasty things done with a combination Warlock/Beguiler in gestalt.

Vexxation
2008-08-24, 09:11 PM
As long as we're on the topic of gestalt, what synergizes well with Beguiler? Illusion and mind-affecting are loads of fun, but less than epic against undead in a dungeon crawl, which happens from time to time.

Factotum/Chameleon :smallbiggrin:

That way you get the illusions of a Beguiler, a Cleric's spell list, Factotum bonuses from Int, and versatility (something a Beguiler kinda lacks, in my opinion) of a Chameleon.

Heck, make it a Changeling. If you can't Disguise and Bluff, Illusion and Charm!

cbdb
2008-08-24, 09:21 PM
I'm currently playing a druid//rogue and enjoying it quite a bit. It's the druid variant from UA that gives up wildshape in exchange for monk movement and various ranger goodies. Not optimal and a bit MAD, but very versitile (two castings of stone shape cover up a break-in like nothing else).

shadow_archmagi
2008-08-24, 09:28 PM
It should also be said that Sorcerer Artificer is nice, as one can use sorcerer for utility-everyday spells like Glitterdust, and Artificer for emergency scrolls/wands.

(Quickened Twin Repeating Maximized Fireballs can solve so much. Sure, you can pull it off like, twice per wand, but very little survives.)

Chronicled
2008-08-24, 09:45 PM
Factotum/Chameleon :smallbiggrin:

That way you get the illusions of a Beguiler, a Cleric's spell list, Factotum bonuses from Int, and versatility (something a Beguiler kinda lacks, in my opinion) of a Chameleon.

Heck, make it a Changeling. If you can't Disguise and Bluff, Illusion and Charm!

I really wonder why so many people are so set on having every Factotum PrC into Chameleon, when a straight Factotum is just as versatile.

RTGoodman
2008-08-24, 09:50 PM
I really wonder why so many people are so set on having every Factotum PrC into Chameleon, when a straight Factotum is just as versatile.

Yeah, I usually wonder the same. Personally, I've never been that big a fan of the Chameleon. And if you're playing a Factotum, you're a "jack-of-all-trades" enough already. And you can get extra standard actions. I don't know who'd want to pass that up (or be able to do it less frequently without having every feat, and the floating bonus feat, be FoI).


I've also seen some nasty things done with a combination Warlock/Beguiler in gestalt.

I don't know if it's even a good combination, but I've always wanted to just play a Warlock//Binder - it just seems like an awesome character to me.

Vexxation
2008-08-24, 09:51 PM
I really wonder why so many people are so set on having every Factotum PrC into Chameleon, when a straight Factotum is just as versatile.

I dunno. I just like the idea of..sprucing it up with Chameleon. I mean, Factotum 19/ x 1 is great and all, but I'd rather be Chameleon. If only for the versatility of the Floating feat and divine spellcasting.

shadow_archmagi
2008-08-24, 10:06 PM
*reads up on beguilers and factotums*

So, to summarize:

Beguiler class feature+feat means all my enemies are denied dex to AC.
Factotum class feature allows me to take ranks in an obscure skill.
Obscure skill lets me do lots of extra damage to enemies who are denied dex to AC.

End result is a viable melee combat concept that fits beguiler flavor?

CASTLEMIKE
2008-08-24, 10:26 PM
As long as we're on the topic of gestalt, what synergizes well with Beguiler? Illusion and mind-affecting are loads of fun, but less than epic against undead in a dungeon crawl, which happens from time to time.

Factotum -19, X-1 is hard to beat.

Factotum -3, Erudite - 17 with the Spells to Power Variant plugs any Beguiler spellcasting holes. Cherry pick the best spells 17 PP Miracles, 9 PP Heals and Teleports.

Chronicled
2008-08-24, 10:27 PM
*reads up on beguilers and factotums*

So, to summarize:

Beguiler class feature+feat+skill trick means all my enemies are denied dex to AC.
Factotum class feature allows me to take ranks in an obscure skill.
Obscure skill lets me do lots of extra damage to enemies who are denied dex to AC.

End result is a viable melee combat concept that fits beguiler flavor?

You can do that too, although I'd stay out of melee except as a last resort--your Beguiler spells are better, and while a d8 is sufficient for gestalt, that's not quite the case if you're on the wrong end of a focused beatdown. A great backup strategy, though. A Gnomish Quickrazor would definitely fit fluff-wise.

The reason Factotums rock so hard for any Int-based caster are a d8 (not squishy anymore, even if you're not a tank); medium BAB (better than most casters); good Reflex (most casters lack this); Int to saves and AC; free extra standard actions; all skills and 6 per level (Beguilers like the first part); a few "spare slots" for utility stuff or stuff you don't have access to (Beguilers love this with their really limited list). Then there's the fun stuff like getting Int to physical skills--you Climb smarter, not harder!

Chronos
2008-08-24, 10:31 PM
As long as we're on the topic of gestalt, what synergizes well with Beguiler?If you happen to have two good ability scores, Beguiler//Druid is a complete adventuring party. You've got skills from Beguiler, melee from Wildshape, and the two spell lists complement each other almost perfectly.

shadow_archmagi
2008-08-25, 06:35 AM
You can do that too, although I'd stay out of melee except as a last resort--your Beguiler spells are better, and while a d8 is sufficient for gestalt, that's not quite the case if you're on the wrong end of a focused beatdown. A great backup strategy, though. A Gnomish Quickrazor would definitely fit fluff-wise.

The reason Factotums rock so hard for any Int-based caster are a d8 (not squishy anymore, even if you're not a tank); medium BAB (better than most casters); good Reflex (most casters lack this); Int to saves and AC; free extra standard actions; all skills and 6 per level (Beguilers like the first part); a few "spare slots" for utility stuff or stuff you don't have access to (Beguilers love this with their really limited list). Then there's the fun stuff like getting Int to physical skills--you Climb smarter, not harder!


Erm, by skill trick I meant tricky thing to do with skills. Like taking points in an obscure book about ninjas that most people arn't even sure is legal.

Adumbration
2008-08-25, 01:45 PM
A good PrC dip for gestalt is Exotic Weapon Fighter 1. Get the Uncanny blow stunt, that gives you 2x your strength to damage when two-handing a one-handed exotic weapon.

Wabbajack
2008-08-25, 02:51 PM
My favorite is
(Race: Any that can have Warlock as favored class, preffered human)
The Glaivelock
{table=head]Level|Class1|Class2|HD|Good Saves|Eldritch Blast

1st|Fighter|Warlock|d10|Will/Fort|1d6

2nd|Fighter|Warlock|d10|Will/Fort|

3rd|Swashbuckler|Warlock|d10|Will/Fort|2d6

4th|Marshal|Warlock|d8|Will/Fort|

5th|Marshal|Warlock|d8|Will/Fort|3d6

6th|Enlighted Spirit|Warlock|d6|Will|

7th|Enlighted Spirit|Warlock|d6|Will|5d6

8th|Enlighted Spirit|Warlock|d6|Will|

9th|Enlighted Spirit|Warlock|d6|Will|7d6

10th|Enlighted Spirit|Warlock|d6|Will|

11th|Enlighted Spirit|Warlock|d6|Will|9d6

12th|Enlighted Spirit|Warlock|d6|Will|

13th|Enlighted Spirit|Warlock|d6|Will|10d6

14th|Enlighted Spirit|Warlock|d6|Will|11d6

15th|Enlighted Spirit|Warlock|d6|Will|12d6

16th|Binder|Warlock|d6|Will|

17th|Hellfire Warlock|Warlock|d6|Will|13d6+2d6

18th|Hellfire Warlock|Warlock|d6|Will|13d6+4d6

19th|Hellfire Warlock|Warlock|d6|Will|13d6+6d6

20th|Swashbuckler|Warlock|d10|Will/Fort|14d6+6d6[/table]

With hellfire-eldritch-glaive you will make 4 touch attacks at level 20 that deal 20d6 each. And thanks to naberius you will regenerate the con damage at the next round.

On top of that you get resistance against fire 10, two resistances 5 each and two 10 each, DM 5/Coldiron, +3 sacred bonus to AC
two auras from marshal, a +fear-save and a enemy-weakening aura from enlighted spirit,
a lot of invocations, wings, a continously tongues effect, an at-will touch "greater dispel magic" that heals you and your allies and you become immune against death spells, magical death effects, energy drain, and negative
energy effects as the "death ward" spell.

RTGoodman
2008-08-25, 03:34 PM
I somehow don't think you can stack Eldritch Blast from Warlock and Enlightened Spirit like you've done. If two classes in a gestalt have the same class feature, they only increase at the rate of the one that increases the fastest. A friend absconded with my Complete Mage so I can't check this out, but I think that it just gives "+1 level of existing invocation-using class." That doesn't (or, at least, shouldn't) stack with actual levels of an invocation-using class. That'd be like trying to pull off a Wizard//Fighter/Archmage or something. Same thing for the Hellfire Warlock levels.

Also, can you even legally TAKE levels in Enlightened Spirit and Hellfire Warlock? Don't they have alignment requirements of Good and non-Good or something like that?

If I were trying to get max damage with a Warlock, it'd be a Warlock/Hellfire Warlock//Binder/Rogue. Just find ways with your invocations to qualify for SA as often as possible and you're all set.

Burley
2008-08-25, 03:35 PM
Yo, OP: Here's something that a DM may like a little bit better:
Lion Totem Barbarian 20//Scout 20. Thematically, it's great. Mechanically, it's great.
You're a forest hunter who relies of his swift legs and tencity.

Basically, the Lion Totem sacrifices the Barbarian's fast movement (which is negated by the Scout's anyways) and gives you Pounce on a Charge. So, you Charge, Pounce, and full-attack with skirmish damage on each attack. The AC penalty from the charge will be eaten up by the Skirmish AC bonus by the time you're full-attacking anyways. Just don't charge until then, and your character will be straight ballin'.

Carry around a Short Sword and name him Lion-o, for nostalgic gold.

Also, as a side note: It is my personal and educated opinion that the cool warlocks don't become binders. We've already sold our souls. We really don't feel like giving out bodies away, too.
We also don't care much Hellfire Warlocks. I mean, we invite to parties, but we sorta hope they don't show. They're the ones that always break stuff because they party too hard, and then they get sick and pass out in the sink.

Wabbajack
2008-08-25, 03:41 PM
Enlighted Spirit doesn't get bonus to an invocation class, but extra eldritch blast damage and one shape invocation at 5th level.
ES needs you too be good, but Hellfire Warlock hasn't got a alignment requirement^^

Chronicled
2008-08-25, 03:46 PM
If I were trying to get max damage with a Warlock, it'd be a Warlock/Hellfire Warlock//Binder/Rogue. Just find ways with your invocations to qualify for SA as often as possible and you're all set.

You also ought to have Scout and the Swift Ambusher feat. Done right, you can get SA and Skirmish damage. That's a whole lotta d6's to be dropping (and you're bypassing almost all AC bonuses).

Chronos
2008-08-25, 04:54 PM
The problem with a one-level Binder dip in a Hellfire Warlock build is that about half the time, you'll end up being required to act like an Internet troll. That might not be an issue in a very RP-lite campaign, but I'd find it extremely annoying.

Wabbajack
2008-08-25, 05:15 PM
The internet and a naberius-binder, that would be hilarious XD

Arbitrarity
2008-08-25, 05:55 PM
Yeah, I usually wonder the same. Personally, I've never been that big a fan of the Chameleon. And if you're playing a Factotum, you're a "jack-of-all-trades" enough already. And you can get extra standard actions. I don't know who'd want to pass that up (or be able to do it less frequently without having every feat, and the floating bonus feat, be FoI).


I like adding chameleon to factotum for a few reasons. Ability boon is AWESOME for single-stat characters, as a competence bonus. This lets your INT go through the roof. Actual spellcasting, from ANY LIST is great, even if it is only up to 6'th level. Spells like Irresistable Dance, improvisation, etc. are too good to pass up. The rest of the class features are nice to good, like the save bonuses from aptitude focus. Which may or may not stack, I'm not quite sure. Same ability, different expressions, but untyped bonuses.

Talic
2008-08-25, 08:12 PM
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=76609&highlight=GESTALT+BUILD+CHALLENGE

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=74764&highlight=GESTALT+BUILD+CHALLENGE

Both provide some interesting insights into the beast that is gestalt.

monty
2008-08-25, 08:18 PM
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=76609&highlight=GESTALT+BUILD+CHALLENGE

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=74764&highlight=GESTALT+BUILD+CHALLENGE

Both provide some interesting insights into the beast that is gestalt.

Whatever happened to those, anyway? I think I was winning one of the last two, and then it died.

Talic
2008-08-25, 08:37 PM
I dunno. They really were charming thought exercises.

Tauric Cheddar is still one of my favorites I ever made, though The half-green dragon troll elemental savant (fire) was probably the one that would be most likely to be allowed into a campaign.

ShneekeyTheLost
2008-08-25, 09:03 PM
Gat-Ling was a pretty good damage build in the gestalt contest, also based on tons of precision-based damage (Master Thrower + Bloodstorm Blade + Monk + Rogue + sai)

Here's an idea... combine Swift Hunter (Ranger counts for Rogue SA) with the same thing with Scout for their precision damage. Put Lion Totem 1/Rangerx/Scoutx on one side, finishing off with something from ToB, then on the other side, just Rogue19/anything1. You'll end up with some obscene amount of precision based damage. Set it up right, with Improved Multiattack for best ranged damage results. Beats a Hellfire Warlock to... well... you know

Eldariel
2008-08-25, 10:49 PM
Or take Factotum on the other side and do it a lot-o'-times per turn. With possible Sneak Attack. I think I made a build along those lines.