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Gorbash
2008-08-24, 06:11 PM
Just a quick question - somebody mentioned them in the brand new Wizard vs. World thread, and said they're from Dragon Magazine, so I'm just wondering if someone knows which one? Thx.

Animefunkmaster
2008-08-24, 06:15 PM
my google-fu tells me that it is from dragon 323 gives the master +4 to initiative and uses the stats of a thrush. Now to look up the stats of a thrush, now to find stats for it.

The Glyphstone
2008-08-24, 06:16 PM
If you can't find the stats of a thrush, I recommend using those of a swallow.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-08-24, 06:18 PM
If you can't find the stats of a thrush, I recommend using those of a swallow.African or European?

Flickerdart
2008-08-24, 06:36 PM
African or European?
I don't think the MM has either.

Roland St. Jude
2008-08-24, 06:52 PM
If you can't find the stats of a thrush, I recommend using those of a swallow.


African or European?


I don't think the MM has either.

Well, you have to know these things to be the CharOp King.

Akimbo
2008-08-24, 06:59 PM
Stats of a Thrush are in the back of the DMG, alternative familiars.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-08-24, 07:01 PM
Stats of a Thrush are in the back of the DMG, alternative familiars.What bonus does that give?

Akimbo
2008-08-24, 07:04 PM
What bonus does that give?

I'm pretty sure the Thrush gives no bonus at all, it specifically says "For NPCs only." And thus the Hummingbird is the PC non crap version.

Collin152
2008-08-24, 07:07 PM
If you can't find the stats of a thrush, I recommend using those of a swallow.

Failing that, the stats for a Robin or Bluejay should suffice.

Person_Man
2008-08-25, 09:20 AM
I suggest that you use the stats for a bat (http://www.rpgoracle.com/srd/monstersAnimal.html#bat), minus the blindesense and Skill bonuses.

The Glyphstone
2008-08-25, 10:15 AM
Failing that, the stats for a Robin or Bluejay should suffice.

But using those stats would leave you unable to determine if your familiar's carrying capacity was sufficient to carry a coconut...

Akimbo
2008-08-25, 12:31 PM
I'm sorry, why can't you use Thrush stats? They are right there in the Core book.

Ned the undead
2008-08-25, 01:09 PM
African or European?

Depends, is it migratory?

Burley
2008-08-25, 01:58 PM
I'm sorry, why can't you use Thrush stats? They are right there in the Core book.

There isn't a reason. The question has been answered, and now, I think, people are just throwing out random birds and Monty Python references, because the Internet needs more of them...apparently.

As for the topic:
They, being some scientists, say Hummingbirds function at a speed so fast that Human movement may not register in their minds, because it is so slow. It'd be quite difficult for a wizard to obtain such a familiar, or get it to do what the wizard wants it to.

Telonius
2008-08-25, 02:16 PM
There isn't a reason. The question has been answered, and now, I think, people are just throwing out random birds and Monty Python references, because the Internet needs more of them...apparently.

As for the topic:
They, being some scientists, say Hummingbirds function at a speed so fast that Human movement may not register in their minds, because it is so slow. It'd be quite difficult for a wizard to obtain such a familiar, or get it to do what the wizard wants it to.

Perhaps a Time Stop spell?

Riffington
2008-08-25, 02:54 PM
I'm pretty sure the Thrush gives no bonus at all, it specifically says "For NPCs only." And thus the Hummingbird is the PC non crap version.

No, no, the Hummingbird shares the "for NPCs only" stat.
But CharOp lets you assume the character is an NPC if that can make it more powerful...

Sholos
2008-08-25, 03:19 PM
I'm pretty sure the Thrush gives no bonus at all, it specifically says "For NPCs only." And thus the Hummingbird is the PC non crap version.

I'm pretty sure you meant that the Hummingbird is the "don't ever use any familiar besides this one because this one is broken all to hell and if you use a different one you're playing your wizard wrong and you should be ashamed" version.


No, no, the Hummingbird shares the "for NPCs only" stat.
But CharOp lets you assume the character is an NPC if that can make it more powerful...

Really? Now that is interesting....

Akimbo
2008-08-25, 03:22 PM
No, no, the Hummingbird shares the "for NPCs only" stat.
But CharOp lets you assume the character is an NPC if that can make it more powerful...

No it doesn't. It's a specific character option.


I'm pretty sure you meant that the Hummingbird is the "don't ever use any familiar besides this one because this one is broken all to hell and if you use a different one you're playing your wizard wrong and you should be ashamed" version.

No I mean that the Thrush provides no benefit comparable to the Rat/Raven/Snake/Toad/ect.

And all of those, and any other PHB familiar are on a comparable level with the Humminbird, which is to say, above the Thrush.

Tengu_temp
2008-08-25, 03:23 PM
African or European?

Argh, African Swallows and their imba Drop Coconut attack... they're too strong for CR 1/2, I tell ya.

Sholos
2008-08-25, 03:32 PM
And all of those, and any other PHB familiar are on a comparable level with the Humminbird, which is to say, above the Thrush.

Yes, because I see lots of Wizards with familiars other than Hummingbirds. I'm sorry, but that +4 to initiative is huge.

Akimbo
2008-08-25, 03:42 PM
Yes, because I see lots of Wizards with familiars other than Hummingbirds. I'm sorry, but that +4 to initiative is huge.

Personally, if I'm playing at level 10 plus I'd rather have a Raven. But that's just me.

Glimbur
2008-08-25, 04:05 PM
I'm pretty sure you meant that the Hummingbird is the "don't ever use any familiar besides this one because this one is broken all to hell and if you use a different one you're playing your wizard wrong and you should be ashamed" version.

Hey, you might want an octopus if you're showing that wizards are better grapplers than barbarians or monks.

Person_Man
2008-08-25, 04:11 PM
Yes, because I see lots of Wizards with familiars other than Hummingbirds. I'm sorry, but that +4 to initiative is huge.

Until you take Improved Familiar or Dragon Familiar or Item Familiar, and then its sub-par. A Hummingbird Familiar is pretty much the same as one bonus feat. Nice, but nothing that I would describe as huge.

If you're really that worried about Initiative, take Leadership and get a Marshal 1/Crusader 5/Dread Commando 5. Then everyone in your party gets your Cha bonus + 5 to their Initiative, and you'll have White Raven Tactics as well.

Chronos
2008-08-25, 04:47 PM
The special benefits of all of the standard familiars are basically equivalent to a feat. The fact that the hummingbird is considered better is just a reflection of the fact that Improved Initiative is a better feat than Toughness, or various Skill Focuses, or the like.

Personally, I'd still rather have a raven. A hummingbird may boost the wizard by more, but the raven can do a few things itself.

Gorbash
2008-08-25, 08:40 PM
So can a Copper Dragon, who will be my familiar from now on. DM didn't like the idea of using Dragon/Dungeon familiars, so I went with this one. They're adorable!

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/draco_gallery/75614.jpg

Don't worry, I won't polymorph him in combat or make him my personal powerhouse, he'll probably spend most of combat inside a familiar pocket, or just spam Entanling Exhalation once in every few rounds.

nargbop
2008-08-26, 12:33 AM
+4 initiative would be awesome if it stacked with Improved Initiative on my Gish... swordy stabby blurry goodness.

wadledo
2008-08-26, 12:51 AM
Hummingbird familiar and elf with Natural Link.
Because I'm not going to use Touch Spells or Animal Speech.
And I'd rather have the +8 Initiative anyway.

BobVosh
2008-08-26, 01:54 AM
So can a Copper Dragon, who will be my familiar from now on. DM didn't like the idea of using Dragon/Dungeon familiars, so I went with this one. They're adorable!

Don't worry, I won't polymorph him in combat or make him my personal powerhouse, he'll probably spend most of combat inside a familiar pocket, or just spam Entanling Exhalation once in every few rounds.

The second you find a ghost you better be nice to it, pay it or promise to do something for it, if it would just be kind enough to beat on your dragon for a while Then when you have the elder copper dragon familiar, tell it to cast heal on the ghost. Or eat it if they are the wizard spellcasters instead of cleric.

With a humming bird familiar you won't need a spell compontent pouch to cast Freedom! 9th level spell, no feat and no expensive spell compontents! Win-win!

Life span: 6 to 12 years I was going to mention a humming bird may be quickly out lived...but apparently those birds last longer than I thought.

Even though hummingbirds are small in size, they have large appetites. Hummingbirds consume between 3.14 and 7.6 calories a day. That may not seem like much, but if humans (who may eat 3,500 calories a day) had the metabolism of a hummingbird, they would have to consume approximately 155,000 calories a day. Thatís about 77 times as much as most humans eat!
Better carry a gallon of necter.

Chronicled
2008-08-26, 06:20 AM
+4 initiative would be awesome if it stacked with Improved Initiative on my Gish... swordy stabby blurry goodness.

It does stack. Which means that as an Elf Wizard (using the substitution level) with 20 Dex, you could have +22 Initiative by casting Nerveskitter, a level 1 spell (+8 from doubled familiar bonus, +4 Imp Init, +5 Dex, +5 Nerveskitter).

This is why Wizards go first in duels, even before Celerity becomes an option.

Gorbash
2008-08-26, 07:36 AM
(+8 from doubled familiar bonus, +4 Imp Init, +5 Dex, +5 Nerveskitter)

Wizard with 20 dex? Get real.

Chronos
2008-08-26, 12:33 PM
The second you find a ghost you better be nice to it, pay it or promise to do something for it, if it would just be kind enough to beat on your dragon for a while Then when you have the elder copper dragon familiar, tell it to cast heal on the ghost. Or eat it if they are the wizard spellcasters instead of cleric.I don't get it. Like, at all. What are you trying to do here, and how does it work?


Wizard with 20 dex? Get real.He's probably assuming a 25 point buy and a maxed Int... That would about explain why dex is so low (remember, you want to put some into Con, too).

tyckspoon
2008-08-26, 04:06 PM
I don't get it. Like, at all. What are you trying to do here, and how does it work?


I *think* he's trying to get the Wyrmling dragon familiar artificially aged.. and it doesn't work, because ghosts don't have an aging attack. Very few things do.. there's maybe two monsters that I very dimly remember (to the point where I might be making them up) that age things, and they're crazy-rare and high-level encounters.

Chronicled
2008-08-26, 04:55 PM
Wizard with 20 dex? Get real.


He's probably assuming a 25 point buy and a maxed Int... That would about explain why dex is so low (remember, you want to put some into Con, too).

The 20 Dex is assuming a duel build. If I'm headed into a low level duel (the combo I posted is doable by level 3), I'm not going to worry about Con at all. Grey Elf means I max Dex/Int and have 8s or 6s in everything else. If you look at the results from the Arena PbP duels, the winner is almost always the one who gets initiative. (The most common winner is a Wizard casting Sleep, followed by a coup-de-grace.)

Gorbash
2008-08-26, 05:11 PM
2 18s cost 32 points. And point buy rules say that all scores start at 8, it never mentions reducing them and adding to another score.

And this is a topic about hummingbird familiar in a real campaign, not Arena PbP duels whose rules/logic don't really apply in campaigns.

Chronicled
2008-08-26, 05:35 PM
2 18s cost 32 points. And point buy rules say that all scores start at 8, it never mentions reducing them and adding to another score.

And this is a topic about hummingbird familiar in a real campaign, not Arena PbP duels whose rules/logic don't really apply in campaigns.

And a Grey Elf gets -2 Str, -2 Con. At 32 PB the stats would be 6/20/6/20/8/8. Lower than that, and I'd consider dropping Int before Dex.

I was only confirming that the hummingbird's bonus stacked with Improved Initiative, and giving an example of how amazing it could be. You were the one who made a big deal about it.

Colmarr
2008-08-26, 08:26 PM
Does the Hummingbird grant +4 initiative or the Improved Initiative feat?

If the latter, doesn't the elf substitution level simply give you two Improved Initiative feats that don't stack?

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-08-26, 08:29 PM
Does the Hummingbird grant +4 initiative or the Improved Initiative feat?

If the latter, doesn't the elf substitution level simply give you two Improved Initiative feats that don't stack?It grants +4 initiative. Which stacks with the Improved Initiative feat, and the elf level doubles.

Recaiden
2008-08-26, 08:51 PM
I *think* he's trying to get the Wyrmling dragon familiar artificially aged.. and it doesn't work, because ghosts don't have an aging attack. Very few things do.. there's maybe two monsters that I very dimly remember (to the point where I might be making them up) that age things, and they're crazy-rare and high-level encounters.

There are additional ghost special abilities in the 3.0 Monsters of Faerun. One of them, i believe is aging.

Gorbash
2008-08-26, 09:01 PM
Yeah Ghost Dragon has that...