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BobVosh
2008-08-25, 07:55 AM
25th Level, Pathfinder, global buffs limit 5 ,no personal buff limit and combat feats act like normal feats, All completes, PHB, PHB2, Races of the wild, Races of Stone, Races of Destiny, Frostburn, sandstorm, Stormrack, planer handbook, DMG, Magic Item Compendium, Spell compendium, Epic level Hand book, Forgotten Realms campaign books, Savage Species. Tomb of battle, ?heroes of valor? NO CLASS OR RACE SUBSTITUTIONS, anything not listed is not allowed
1,000,000gp, 28 point buy, hit points 1/2 dice max value +1

I was originally planning on a Thri-kreen Warrior/Dervish build, but I talked with a friend in that game and he wanted to be melee damage. Since he is almost always the cleric, I decided to be nice and grab the heals/buff position.

Right now it is 3 of us, and I will be with a dread necromancer and probably a dervish (we both built one before the group talked about what to be.)

I really don't care what I play, but I don't make many buffers, and certainly not past 10th. So any suggestions, tips, or a really neat build would be appreciated. Especially on spells when it invariably leads to cleric or druid.

The Glyphstone
2008-08-25, 07:59 AM
Wizards have more offensive combat buffs they can give to others, usually...don't quote me on that though.

You want to marry Chain Spell, preferably in the form of a Metamagic Rod. Best Item Ever for a buffer type, turning your expensive high-level single-target buff into a party-wide buff. Greater Magic Weapon, Brilliant Blade, Greater Magic Vestment, Greater Heroism, Weapon of Impact, Keen Edge...the list is endless of all the goodies you can dish out.

Important thing to note with a dedicated buffer in the party is that no one ever needs a weapon enhancement higher than +1, because your first action can be Chaining a Greater Magic Weapon onto everybody's stuff to make it +5. Spend that juicy gold on weapon enchantments instead.

For Prestige Classes, I think the ultimate buffbot is something called a War Weaver. Never seen it in person, but it has something about a pre-cast buff or buffs than you can release on your entire party as a standard action. Here's the War Weaver Optimization Handbook - it still has a big list of useful buffs...intended for the Weavers's Tapestry, but they can probably work with Chain spell too.
http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=769208 (War Weaver Handbook)

jcsw
2008-08-25, 08:09 AM
Nightsticks + DMM Persist/DMM Chain?

Get an epic charisma score, then dip into things like Healer (Cha to Healing) and Marshal (Cha to... something else?) for some nice auras?

A dip into Heirophant will net you free reach spells which can help with some touch-range spells.

Jack_Simth
2008-08-25, 05:46 PM
Nightsticks + DMM Persist/DMM Chain?

Get an epic charisma score, then dip into things like Healer (Cha to Healing) and Marshal (Cha to... something else?) for some nice auras?

A dip into Heirophant will net you free reach spells which can help with some touch-range spells.

No need to dip into Healer - Divine Metamagic (Persistent Spell) Vigorous Circle. Fast Healing 3 all day for the entire party. If you've got 600 HP max, you can go from Disabled (0 hp) to Full Health in 20 minutes. You'll want something for in-combat healing, but that's what Heal is for.

At 25th level, you can afford to lose some spell progression - which makes Heirophant particularly attractive, as it progresses caster level even though it doesn't progress spell access and spell slots - and many of the boosts from Heirophant are better than epic bonus feats anyway.

Let's see...
A simple Cleric-20/Heirophant-5 would do really well for this.
Feats:
01: Extend Spell
03: Persistent Spell
06: Divine Metamagic (Persistent Spell)
09: Chain Spell
12: Divine Metamagic (Chain Spell)
15: Extra Turning
18: Eschew Material Components (required for Ignore Material Components)
21: Epic Spellcasting (unless banned, or you dislike the cheese)
24: Ignore Material Components (free True Resurrection spells, but also Symbol spells and simliar)

Take Divine Reach as a Heirophant special ability at least once so that you can Chain and Persist touch-range spells. I'd suggest dropping ALL the other slots from it into Spell Power. Walking around with a caster level of 30 when you're 25th level isn't half-bad, and buff spells on the entire party at caster level 34 are handy (the other +1 comes from an Ioun Stone, and the morning buffs get a +4 from a Bead of Karma). You could, instead, take a lot of metamagic feats with the Heirophant slots - those can prove very useful as well.

Of course, pick up a decent Charisma score (for the turning attempts), and quite a few Nightsticks from Libris Mortis (for the turning attempts). If you get one of the feats as a bonus feat from your domain or race choices (e.g., a Human taking the Planning domain gets Extend Spell for free, as well as a bonus feat), take Extra Turning in place of the feat on the list.

Max Spellcraft and Knoweledge(Religion). If you've got a domain that gives it to you, also max out Knoweledge(Nature) (for more Epic spell slots).

As long as you're only using Divine Metamagic (Persistent Spell) on party buffs (Vigorous Circle, Freedom of Movement, Air Walk, Spell Resistence, and so on), you're not overshadowing anyone in doing this.

BobVosh
2008-08-25, 08:09 PM
It is pathfinder, feat every odd level.

Also in pathfinder there aren't class skills like in 3.5. Similiar to 4.0 you have +3 to all class skills you have a rank in, all others are 1 for 1 like regular D&D.

No libris mortis. Nice to finally have a book for night sticks everyone keeps mentioning.

War weaver looks cool, thinking of Wizard 3/Weaver 5/Focus Specialist 10/7 Initiate of the 7 fold veil. Or possibly Wizard 3/Weaver 5/Focus Specialist 10/5 Abjurant Champion/2 Initiate of the 7 fold veil.

ShneekeyTheLost
2008-08-25, 08:34 PM
It is pathfinder, feat every odd level.

Also in pathfinder there aren't class skills like in 3.5. Similiar to 4.0 you have +3 to all class skills you have a rank in, all others are 1 for 1 like regular D&D.

No libris mortis. Nice to finally have a book for night sticks everyone keeps mentioning.

War weaver looks cool, thinking of Wizard 3/Weaver 5/Focus Specialist 10/7 Initiate of the 7 fold veil. Or possibly Wizard 3/Weaver 5/Focus Specialist 10/5 Abjurant Champion/2 Initiate of the 7 fold veil.

You are getting close, young padawan, only you are missing the prerequsites of WarWeaver, unless you want to go Wiz3/Master Specialist10/Weaver5...

Here's the thing. Master Specialist... yea, it's pretty fun... but not really pertenant to your build. Here's one better suited for buffing:

Wizard/Incantatrix/WarWeaver/Archmage

I don't recall what prereqs there are for Incantatrix, but it's a fair bet you can meet them and still get Inc10 and War Weaver 5. If you have any levels left over, Archmage is a solid finisher.

In short, you can metamagic the hell out of your buffs, then drop them on the whole party. How about a Chain Mind Blank? Make the whole party immune to mind-affecting. If you pick up a feat that lets you cast out of one domain, you can get Magic Vestments, then Magic Vestments + Greater Magic Weapon the whole party. There's got to be a way to toss in Persist Freedom of Movement as an arcane spell to drop into the Weave...

Another way to accomplish this is straight Cleric/Heirophant. Even without cracksticks, DMM Chain is still viable with a couple of Extra Turning feats (and it seems as though you will not lack for feats). Basically, don't bother with DMM Persist, most of these spells will be duration of hours/level anyways.

Make sure to take the Spontanious Domain ability from PhB II. What domain? Healing, of course. Spontanious Heal and Resurect spells are always handy to have, particularly when you need a Res within rounds (like with Mummy's Curse). Lower level spells are the same, the higher end spells are just more powerful. It also opens up potential Radiant Servant of Cheese abuse, but we won't be needing to go down that route.

Heirophant gives you Divine Reach. This lets you chain spells that are normally touch.

Greater Magic Weapon and Magic Vestments are both hours/level. Now the whole party has +5 equipment of whatever instead of +1 of Whatever. This'll save the party literally MILLIONS in GP. You do the math.

Chain Mind Blank (from either Protection or Mind domain). Now the whole party is immune to one of the more common save or shut down effects: Mind affecting. The fact that the bad guys can't scry you is bonus.

Don't forget a Hero's Feast. It makes your party immune to Poison. That prevents Cloudkill cheeze.

You know what, there are two very good buffs to be able to Persist, so if you can scrounge up the turn attempts to fuel DMM Persist, here's what ya do:

Holy Aura
Freedom of Movement (must also chain)

Not only immune to most 'no save, you're stuck' spells, but Holy Aura als o grants a +4 Deflection bonus to AC (no need for Rings of Protection), and a +4 to all saves (no need for Cloak of Resistance).

BobVosh
2008-08-26, 01:14 AM
The point of Master Specialist is to make personal spells touch. Which is now close from war weaver. So all personal spells can buff the party.

Archmage really doesn't hold anything for a war weaver.

I was considering Cleric/Heirophant though. I think the weaver seems like more fun and better buffer. Only 2 of us will be healed by cure spells, remember. Likewise holy word would be BAD for our dread necromancer.

Persist Freedom of Movement is no problem. I cast it as a 10th level spell. I should have about 3 or 4 of 10th level spell slots. Improved spell capacity FTW!

The thing I'm really liking is the concept of time stop cast on the whole party at once. With two main casters, minions to positions (dread necromancer has swarms, tough to get them in the right place at the right time), and leadership cohorts.

And maybe I cheated the levels around for no reason, every thought of that? Huh? >.>

ShneekeyTheLost
2008-08-26, 07:20 PM
The point of Master Specialist is to make personal spells touch. Which is now close from war weaver. So all personal spells can buff the party.

Archmage really doesn't hold anything for a war weaver.

I was considering Cleric/Heirophant though. I think the weaver seems like more fun and better buffer. Only 2 of us will be healed by cure spells, remember. Likewise holy word would be BAD for our dread necromancer.

Persist Freedom of Movement is no problem. I cast it as a 10th level spell. I should have about 3 or 4 of 10th level spell slots. Improved spell capacity FTW!

The thing I'm really liking is the concept of time stop cast on the whole party at once. With two main casters, minions to positions (dread necromancer has swarms, tough to get them in the right place at the right time), and leadership cohorts.

And maybe I cheated the levels around for no reason, every thought of that? Huh? >.>

Holy Aura has NO negative side effects on evil individuals as far as being cast upon them. Even evil individuals can have Holy Aura active on themselves without any reprocussions.

Archmage has many things, including an increase in caster level, being able to drop down area effect battlefield control without affecting allies (like Cloudkill, Solid/Acid Fog, and more), and Arcane Reach, letting you cast touch spells at 30'. This does several things:

1) Since it has a fixed duration, it may be Persisted.

2) Since it has a range greater than Touch, it may be cast into the Weave

3) Since it has a range greater than Touch, it may be Chained.

Know the limitations on the Weave. Greater Magic Weapon and Magic Vestments are cast on the EQUIPMENT, not on the PERSON, therefore CANNOT go into a Weave. Thus Reach Chain GMW/MV is required.

Persist metamagic feat may ONLY affect a) personal spells, b) emenation spells centered on caster, or c) spells with a fixed range.

These are limitations seldom known when people start talking about how wonderful Persist and War Weaver is.

To be honest, you're better off with Incantatrix rather than Master Specialist, because then you can metamagic the heck out of your buffs and still get them into the Weave. There aren't too many personal spells under 4th level that you'd want to cast on the party. Heck, the only one I can think of is Foresight, but to cast THAT on the party, you'd need some way of being able to not only make it not personal, but make it have a range greater than touch, THEN chain it, for free. For Arcane, pretty much only way to do this is Incantatrix.

Chronicled
2008-08-26, 07:29 PM
Likewise holy word would be BAD for our dread necromancer.

Only if he's evil, which is by no means required for the Dread Necro. Just mention during char gen that you'll be dropping Holy Words around, and watch him decide to be "neutral sketchy." :smallwink:

BobVosh
2008-08-27, 02:05 AM
1) Since it has a fixed duration, it may be Persisted.

2) Since it has a range greater than Touch, it may be cast into the Weave Enlarged tapestry-Touch spells become close range.


3) Since it has a range greater than Touch, it may be Chained. Same as above


Know the limitations on the Weave. Greater Magic Weapon and Magic Vestments are cast on the EQUIPMENT, not on the PERSON, therefore CANNOT go into a Weave. Thus Reach Chain GMW/MV is required. I am aware.


Persist metamagic feat may ONLY affect a) personal spells, b) emenation spells centered on caster, or c) spells with a fixed range.

These are limitations seldom known when people start talking about how wonderful Persist and War Weaver is.

To be honest, you're better off with Incantatrix rather than Master Specialist, because then you can metamagic the heck out of your buffs and still get them into the Weave. There aren't too many personal spells under 4th level that you'd want to cast on the party. Heck, the only one I can think of is Foresight, but to cast THAT on the party, you'd need some way of being able to not only make it not personal, but make it have a range greater than touch, THEN chain it, for free. For Arcane, pretty much only way to do this is Incantatrix.

Master Specialist Abjurer makes personal spells touch. Enlarged tapestry makes touch close range. I'll concede the archmage making it have a fixed range, as I forgot the spells would no longer be considered personal.

However with arcane reach from archmage it says I can cast touch spells at 30 feet. Doesn't it still count as a touch spell? Therefore it can't be persisted?

As for spells under fourth, I figured I won't need to really persist them, I can weave 3 in and drop all three as a move action. After combat I weave em in again.


Wow...I missed one thing in the weaves weakness section. The level of the spell casted through the weave = class level, not caster level.

Maybe just abuse chain spell and ultimate magus for metamagic fun. Crap.

Hmm, 3 wizard, 1 sorcerer, 10 ult magus, 5 war weaver, 1 archmage, 5 extended ult magus.

There is how I lower my meta magics for the weave, and persist my touch spells. You made me sad ShneekeyTheLost :'(

ShneekeyTheLost
2008-08-27, 07:13 PM
If you want to extend ANYTHING, extend War Weaver after you go epic.

With War Weaver 10, you get to cast 9th level spells into the weave. How about Mind Blank, Persisted Freedom of Movement, and Greater Blink. shoved in there? I don't recall Master Specialist letting you cast Personal as Touch, but if so, then you can also dump in Greater Mirror Image and make the whole party nearly invulnerable to physical attacks.

Touch spells may not be persisted (just personal or aura centered on self), but spells with a fixed duration, such as those with Arcane Reach (static reach of 30'), may be. That's how to get them persistable again. That's why a one level dip in Archmage is valuable to the build.

BobVosh
2008-08-27, 09:23 PM
If you want to extend ANYTHING, extend War Weaver after you go epic.

With War Weaver 10, you get to cast 9th level spells into the weave. How about Mind Blank, Persisted Freedom of Movement, and Greater Blink. shoved in there? I don't recall Master Specialist letting you cast Personal as Touch, but if so, then you can also dump in Greater Mirror Image and make the whole party nearly invulnerable to physical attacks.


I thought of this, epic extensions of prestige classes require 10 level prestige classes. And the master specialist of abjuration level 10 ability does it. Otherwise the abjuration MS is meh. Which is why I was excited by the thought of my personal spells being cast as "close range." That is 85 feet.



Touch spells may not be persisted (just personal or aura centered on self), but spells with a fixed duration, such as those with Arcane Reach (static reach of 30'), may be. That's how to get them persistable again. That's why a one level dip in Archmage is valuable to the build.

It says fixed distance greater than touch...but archmage cast it as a touch spell from 30 feet. I'm not really sure it counts as anything but "touch".