A Viable Monk Build?

[Mikeavelli]

Hello all!

I was looking over the Complete series the other day and thought it'd be a lark to build up a Monk who takes advantage of all the Ascetic Feats. Y'know, Ascetic Knight, Ascetic Stalker, that sort of thing.

I'm leaving out Ascetic Mage because 4 levels of sorcerer is just too much to deal with when you're taking a level in Paladin, Rogue, Ninja, and Ranger on top of it.

I'm just in the planning stages here, but I'm seeing some actual potential!

I'm thinking

Ninja2/Rogue1/Paladin1/Ranger1/MonkX

Go for heavy dex and Wisdom, deal most of your damage with Sneak Attack, Sudden Strike, and Smiting, you're never going to outdamage the Leap Attacking Greatsword-wielding fighter type, but that's not your role!

I think this would be fun to play, but I'm looking for more ideas here. Anyone ever done this? Or at least thought about it before?

[Frosty]

Umm...what exactly *is* your role anyways? I can't figure it out.

[MammonAzrael]

Viable Monk build = Unarmed Swordsage 20.

EDIT: OK, sorry for the snarkiness, I'm going to assume you're honestly just curious about a good build. But open-ended monk threads are notorious in the Playground from devolving into something ugly/hilarious. So the most important thing to do is to state first what you want the monk to be able to do, and why it has to be a monk and not some other class.

I wonder how long we can avoid the flames of monk-ery?

[Stupendous_Man]

Umm...what exactly *is* your role anyways? I can't figure it out.

{Scrubbed}

[Mikeavelli]

To be honest, I'm the only powergamer in my group, the only one who reads these forums and realizes the possibilities in a Batman wizard or Ubercharger.

As a result, the Party is greatly underpowered compared to what you guys are seeing in most of your games, and I feel free to just screw around and try "weird" concepts like this one, confident that I'll never fall behind the rest of the party.

The role I envision for this character is Skillmonkey flanker and wizard-killer (We don't ever fight Batman, so the idea is if a Wizard is close enough to be engaging the party, it's close enough for me to reach it in one turn, and put it down)

Edit: And it has to be a Monk because there are five dedicated multiclass feats that I've found that revolve around Monks, which is (I think) the most for any class. I just think it'd be hilarious to take them all.

[Person_Man]

Monk is always controversial around here. But its playable if you know what you're doing. Some thoughts:

There is no good reason to multiclass between Ninja and Monk. The Wis bonus to AC does not stack. You gain more by taking additional levels of the same class, or by going into a Prestige Class.

The Ninja/Rogue/Monk multiclassing will screw your BAB unless your DM uses fractional BAB. BAB determines the number of attacks you get, which is very important for any non-caster.

Rogue1/Paladin1/Ranger1 is a really odd - you don't really get much. Again, you're better off taking more levels of Ninja or Monk or a PrC.

The Ascetic feats (or any of the multiclass feats) generally work best if you only use 2 base classes. Any additional classes just dilute the usefulness of the stacking benefits that you gain. So pick 2 classes you like the most, or just go with a more traditional Monk/PrC/PrC or Ninja/PrC/PrC.

If you go Monk, your key offensive abilities are unarmed damage and Stunning Fist. There are a variety of ways (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4558985&postcount=14) to pump your unarmed damage to the 12d8 range. Taking Scorpion's Grasp from Sandstorm will give you a free Grapple check whenever you hit your enemy (which means you potentially get double damage for that attack, and you can then make additional Grapple checks for each iterative attack you have, as clarified in the Rules Compendium. And Grapple checks will succeed more often). Stunning Fist can be improved with Freezing the Lifeblood (Comp Warrior) or Pharaoh's Fist (Sandstorm) and Fist of the Heavens (Book of Exalted Deeds). If you spend feats on this, make sure you have enough Stunning Fist uses per day that its useful.

If you're a Ninja (also known as the nerfed Rogue), your key ability is Sudden Strike (enabled by Invisibility). Boost it with Sneak Attack feats (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=66915), which count for Sudden Strike. My favorites are Craven, Staggering Strike, and Maiming Strike. Also, be sure to find a viable workaround(s) for when you fight enemies that are immune to Sneak Attack. Some DMs will allow Dragonefire Strike to do this, others require elaborate spell and weapon workarounds (Spell Compendium and Magic Item have many).

If you more clearly tell us what you want, then it'll be easier to tailor advice to a build that will make you happy. Cheers.

[Frosty]

{Scrubbed}

From his class combination, I had NO idea what he was trying to do. And I also no idea how he was going to reconcile that roleplay-wise. A ninja-Paladin?

[Darrin]

From his class combination, I had NO idea what he was trying to do. And I also no idea how he was going to reconcile that roleplay-wise. A ninja-Paladin?

He's trying to use the Ascetic [X] feats to dip into a variety of base classes, and then advance the abilities of all those base classes by taking more levels of monk. So Ascetic Rogue advances his sneak attack, Ascetic Hunter advances his rangering stuff, etc.

It's... an interesting idea, I guess, but the monk already suffers from MAD and a variety of abilities that don't work well together, and this just makes it a lot more... uh, challenging? Kind of like diluting bottled water with tap water.

[Frosty]

Can't he go to the Complete Scoundrel and take things like Daring Outlaw, Swift Hunter, Swift Ambusher etc? Take Monk out of the picture and still have all these nice features. Have better classes in there like Swashbuckler, Rogue, and Ranger.

[Chronicled]

The "Ascetic X" feats do a very poor job of stacking class features compared to (as Frosty mentioned) the class stacking feats in Complete Scoundrel. If you're going to


Stunning Fist can be improved with Freezing the Lifeblood (Comp Warrior) or Pharaoh's Fist (Sandstorm) and Fist of the Heavens (Book of Exalted Deeds). If you spend feats on this, make sure you have enough Stunning Fist uses per day that its useful.

Pain Touch from CW is good too.

[monty]

{Scrubbed}

[RagnaroksChosen]

that build looks acceptable... the problem is mst of your feets are going to be spent on the asthetic feets pritty much feets at levels 3 6 9 and 12 are taken by asthetics which kinda blows but you'll progress as a monks unarmed dmg all the way which is nice...
i would take improved natural attack at first to bump ur dmg.

[Talic]

Superior unarmed strike, as well.

This is an interesting take on monk. Still wrapping my head around Ninjapaladin.

[Mushroom Ninja]

Regardless of any suboptimalness of the build, it sounds like a blast to play (flurry sneak attacks ftw). :smallbiggrin:

EDIT: also, what's your statline like?

[RagnaroksChosen]

Superior unarmed strike, as well.

This is an interesting take on monk. Still wrapping my head around Ninjapaladin.

mabye hes a repenting ninja?

mabye he killed his ninja leader and felt bad so while atoning he found "god(s)"??

[Firefingers]

Its a very odd looking build, how do you reconcile sneak attack with the paladin code? You would have a very hard time getting precision damage as a paladin past your DM without a very well written backstory and explaination as to how you can pull it off within the code. Barring the scout class of course as skirmish works differently from what I remember doesnt require you to attack unaware opponents. Feint/Flanking I could see but attacking someone in the back would definately come close to violating the paladin code.

[Lord Lorac Silvanos]

Its a very odd looking build, how do you reconcile sneak attack with the paladin code? You would have a very hard time getting precision damage as a paladin past your DM without a very well written backstory and explaination as to how you can pull it off within the code. Barring the scout class of course as skirmish works differently from what I remember doesnt require you to attack unaware opponents. Feint/Flanking I could see but attacking someone in the back would definately come close to violating the paladin code.

There is not necessarily anything sneaky about sneak attacks (except the name) and there need not be any conflict with the Paladin's code anymore than there is a conflict about Paladins and critical hits.

[new1965]

Its a very odd looking build, how do you reconcile sneak attack with the paladin code? You would have a very hard time getting precision damage as a paladin past your DM without a very well written backstory and explaination as to how you can pull it off within the code. Barring the scout class of course as skirmish works differently from what I remember doesnt require you to attack unaware opponents. Feint/Flanking I could see but attacking someone in the back would definately come close to violating the paladin code.

If it was a Knight.. Id agree but if its a "merciless" paladin, he could consider himself the "light in the darkness" and it could work

[RagnaroksChosen]

Its a very odd looking build, how do you reconcile sneak attack with the paladin code? You would have a very hard time getting precision damage as a paladin past your DM without a very well written backstory and explaination as to how you can pull it off within the code. Barring the scout class of course as skirmish works differently from what I remember doesnt require you to attack unaware opponents. Feint/Flanking I could see but attacking someone in the back would definately come close to violating the paladin code.


theres a whole prestiege class devoted to this and a feat.

Devoted inquisitor i believe... and shadowbane inquisitor

[Jayabalard]

To be honest, I'm the only powergamer in my group, the only one who reads these forums and realizes the possibilities in a Batman wizard or Ubercharger.

As a result, the Party is greatly underpowered compared to what you guys are seeing in most of your games, and I feel free to just screw around and try "weird" concepts like this one, confident that I'll never fall behind the rest of the party. Not many people on these forums seem to understand this, so don't be surprised if most of your advice is counter to what you're looking for.


I wonder how long we can avoid the flames of monk-ery?My guess is that by post #3 someone will start posting stuff to be witty instead of helpful.

[Treguard]

{Scrubbed}

[playswithfire]

theres a whole prestiege class devoted to this and a feat.

Devoted inquisitor i believe... and shadowbane inquisitor

Also Grey Gaurd from Complete Scoundrel

[MammonAzrael]

OK, looking them over, the biggest problem I see is that none of them let your classes stack much. They advance your unarmed damage (except for A Mage, which advances Monk AC), and that's it. They offer some small benefit from the non-monk class feature, but it's still quite disappointing. But lets see...

I'm using fractional BAB and saves here (otherwise it'd just be ugly)

{table=head]Level|Class|BAB|Fort|Ref|Will|Class Features|Feats
1|Sorcerer 1|.5|.33|.33|2.5|Summon familiar|Precocious Apprentice, Practiced Spellcaster
2|Monk 1|1.25|2.83|2.83|5|Flurry of blows, unarmed strike|Stunning Fist
3|Paladin 1|2.25|5.17|3.17|5.33|Aura of good, Detect Evil, Smite Evil 1/day|Ascetic Knight
4|Paladin 2|3.25|5.67|3.5|5.67|Divine Grace, Lay on Hands|
5|Paladin 3|4.25|6.17|3.83|6|Aura of Courage, Divine Health|
6|Ranger 1|5.25|8.67|6.33|6.33|1st Favored Enemy, Solitary Hunting, Wild Empathy|Track, Ascetic Hunter
7|Ranger 2|6.25/1|9.17|6.83|6.67|Combat Style (TWF)|
8|Monk 2|7/2|9.67|7.33|7.17|Evasion|Combat Reflexes
9|Ninja 1|7.75/2|10|9.83|7.5|Ki Power, Sudden Strike (1d6), Trapfinding| Ascetic Stalker
10|Ninja 2|8.5/3|10.33|10.33|7.83|Ghost Step (invisible)|
11|Monk 3|9.25/4|10.83|10.83|8.33|Still Mind|
12|Rogue 1|10/5|11.17|13.33|8.67|Sneak Attack (1d6), Trapfinding|Ascetic Rogue
13|Monk 4|10.75/5|11.67|13.83|9.17|Ki Strike (magic), slow fall 20'|
14|Monk 5|11.5/6/1|12.17|14.33|9.67|Purity of body|
15|Monk 6|12.25/7/2|12.67|14.83|10.17|Slow fall 30'|Imp Trip?, Ascetic Mage
16|Enlightened Fist 1|13/8/3|13|17.33|12.67|Ki Strike (magic), monk abilities|
17|Enlightened Fist 2|13.75/8/3|13.33|17.83|13.17|Fist of energy, +1 CL|
18|Enlightened Fist 3|14.5/9/4|13.67|18.33|13.67|Arcane Fist, +1 CL|Intuitive Strike
19|Enlightened Fist 4|15.25/10/5|14|18.83|14.17|+1 CL|
20|Enlightened Fist 5|16/11/6/1|14.33|19.33|14.67|Arcane Rejuvenation, +1 CL|[/table]

So lets see...

You get 16 BAB at lv 20
High saves
Effectively a 5th level Sorcerer with caster level 9
Deliver touch spells as part of unarmed full attack
1d4+3d6+13d8+3d10 (88 + Con HP)
2d8 unarmed damage (19th lv monk)
Wis+Cha+2 to unarmored AC
+30' to base speed
Invisible as swift action 3+Wis/day
1d6 Sneak Attack, 1d6 Sudden Strike
Favored Enemy (bonus applies to attack roll as well)
Cha to saves
Immune to fear and non-magical diseases
Wis to attack rolls instead of Str
Smite Evil 1/day (+9 damage)

And more. You'll have to start with at least 15 in Cha, and I'd suggest you focus on Wis and Cha, then Dex and Con. Str is a dump stat, and you don't care too much about Int, this is not a skill monkey (though it does get quite a lot of random skills!). I'd suggest Wraithstrike as your Precocious Apprentice spell.

I'm sure there's much more to it, and plenty of tuning that could be done, but I hope you get a kick out of it!

Oh, and Solitary hunter I found on Crystal Keep.

[RagnaroksChosen]

OK, looking them over, the biggest problem I see is that none of them let your classes stack much. They advance your unarmed damage (except for A Mage, which advances Monk AC), and that's it. They offer some small benefit from the non-monk class feature, but it's still quite disappointing. But lets see...

I'm using fractional BAB and saves here (otherwise it'd just be ugly)

{table=head]Level|Class|BAB|Fort|Ref|Will|Class Features|Feats
1|Sorcerer 1|.5|.33|.33|2.5|Summon familiar|Precocious Apprentice, Practiced Spellcaster
2|Monk 1|1.25|2.83|2.83|5|Flurry of blows, unarmed strike|Stunning Fist
3|Paladin 1|2.25|5.17|3.17|5.33|Aura of good, Detect Evil, Smite Evil 1/day|Ascetic Knight
4|Paladin 2|3.25|5.67|3.5|5.67|Divine Grace, Lay on Hands|
5|Paladin 3|4.25|6.17|3.83|6|Aura of Courage, Divine Health|
6|Ranger 1|5.25|8.67|6.33|6.33|1st Favored Enemy, Solitary Hunting, Wild Empathy|Track, Ascetic Hunter
7|Ranger 2|6.25/1|9.17|6.83|6.67|Combat Style (TWF)|
8|Monk 2|7/2|9.67|7.33|7.17|Evasion|Combat Reflexes
9|Ninja 1|7.75/2|10|9.83|7.5|Ki Power, Sudden Strike (1d6), Trapfinding| Ascetic Stalker
10|Ninja 2|8.5/3|10.33|10.33|7.83|Ghost Step (invisible)|
11|Monk 3|9.25/4|10.83|10.83|8.33|Still Mind|
12|Rogue 1|10/5|11.17|13.33|8.67|Sneak Attack (1d6), Trapfinding|Ascetic Rogue
13|Monk 4|10.75/5|11.67|13.83|9.17|Ki Strike (magic), slow fall 20'|
14|Monk 5|11.5/6/1|12.17|14.33|9.67|Purity of body|
15|Monk 6|12.25/7/2|12.67|14.83|10.17|Slow fall 30'|Imp Trip?, Ascetic Mage
16|Enlightened Fist 1|13/8/3|13|17.33|12.67|Ki Strike (magic), monk abilities|
17|Enlightened Fist 2|13.75/8/3|13.33|17.83|13.17|Fist of energy, +1 CL|
18|Enlightened Fist 3|14.5/9/4|13.67|18.33|13.67|Arcane Fist, +1 CL|Intuitive Strike
19|Enlightened Fist 4|15.25/10/5|14|18.83|14.17|+1 CL|
20|Enlightened Fist 5|16/11/6/1|14.33|19.33|14.67|Arcane Rejuvenation, +1 CL|[/table]

So lets see...

You get 16 BAB at lv 20
High saves
Effectively a 5th level Sorcerer with caster level 9
Deliver touch spells as part of unarmed full attack
1d4+3d6+13d8+3d10 (88 + Con HP)
2d8 unarmed damage (19th lv monk)
Wis+Cha+2 to unarmored AC
+30' to base speed
Invisible as swift action 3+Wis/day
1d6 Sneak Attack, 1d6 Sudden Strike
Favored Enemy (bonus applies to attack roll as well)
Cha to saves
Immune to fear and non-magical diseases
Wis to attack rolls instead of Str
Smite Evil 1/day (+9 damage)

And more. You'll have to start with at least 15 in Cha, and I'd suggest you focus on Wis and Cha, then Dex and Con. Str is a dump stat, and you don't care too much about Int, this is not a skill monkey (though it does get quite a lot of random skills!). I'd suggest Wraithstrike as your Precocious Apprentice spell.

I'm sure there's much more to it, and plenty of tuning that could be done, but I hope you get a kick out of it!

Oh, and Solitary hunter I found on Crystal Keep.

I would drop the sorcer levels as he said he'd rather not take thoughs... as much as three levels in paladin seem nice to pick up divine health and what not but i would only take 2 in paladin... the rest i would leave the same.. add 2 levels of monk and ur good.

[MammonAzrael]

I would drop the sorcer levels as he said he'd rather not take thoughs... as much as three levels in paladin seem nice to pick up divine health and what not but i would only take 2 in paladin... the rest i would leave the same.. add 2 levels of monk and ur good.

*shrug* I know he said he might drop the Ascetic Mage, but he also said the idea came to him because he thought it would be fun to use all the "Ascetic" feats. I chose to go with the "use them all" route.

The reason I went with 3 levels in paladin was to get a 16 BAB by lv 20. I could go 3 in Ranger instead, but pally is better, IMO. Immunity to fear and diseases trumps the feat Endurance, I'd say.

[RagnaroksChosen]

*shrug* I know he said he might drop the Ascetic Mage, but he also said the idea came to him because he thought it would be fun to use all the "Ascetic" feats. I chose to go with the "use them all" route.

The reason I went with 3 levels in paladin was to get a 16 BAB by lv 20. I could go 3 in Ranger instead, but pally is better, IMO. Immunity to fear and diseases trumps the feat Endurance, I'd say.

yes but droping that level of paladin and picking up another level in monk would keep the bab and would give you wholness of body.. which with lay on hands is pritty sexy if you ask me.

[MammonAzrael]

No, dropping even one level of a full-BAB class would reduce lv 20 BAB to 15.75, not enough for your fourth attack.

[Roland St. Jude]

Sheriff of Moddingham: Please feel free to address the OP's topic, but please don't drag baggage from other threads. Also, no matter how witty, please don't make comments intended to flame others or incite flames from others.

[RagnaroksChosen]

No, dropping even one level of a full-BAB class would reduce lv 20 BAB to 15.75, not enough for your fourth attack.

hmm interesting yet
Going from level 6-7 monk according to the srd gives +1 bab as does a going from 2-3 in paladin... can you please explain then? how it reduces the bab?

[Sstoopidtallkid]

hmm interesting yet
Going from level 6-7 monk according to the srd gives +1 bab as does a going from 2-3 in paladin... can you please explain then? how it reduces the bab?He's using fractional BAB, which means that each level of Monk adds .75 to his BAB, each level of Paladin adds 1. It rounds down, but without it, this build would be even worse off.

[RagnaroksChosen]

He's using fractional BAB, which means that each level of Monk adds .75 to his BAB, each level of Paladin adds 1. It rounds down, but without it, this build would be even worse off.

meh i guess... i see what you meen by the fractional...

althugh the op said hes playing in an unoptimal group so probebly ok with out using it.

although to the op i would pick two of the Asthetic feats (i would do paladin rogue and pick up the devoted inquisitor for level stacking goodness)

[MammonAzrael]

Yeah, without fractional BAB it'd only have 13 BAB at 20.

I know the OP can probably have a "worse off" build, but since the initial inspiration was the amusing thought of an Ascetic monk, and not a character concept or idea, I wanted to do what I could. And I just couldn't help trying to get at least some optimization in there. :smalltongue:

And I agree, for a more coherent character, and one that could much more likely grow as a character (and not just mechanically, but actually have a reason to switch classes) it would make sense to drop the number of Ascetics to aim for. And dazing SA is always fun.

Though if he focused on paladin more, he'd want to look at the feat Serenity (from an old DR) that lets you use Wis instead of Cha for most Paladin abilities.

Another option is to drop the Sorcerer and Enlightened Fist and pick up another PrC that advances monk abilities and one of the other classes you've taken (though I can't think of any off the top of my head, I know they exist).

[prufock]

variety of ways (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4558985&postcount=14)

Sneak Attack feats (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=66915)

Thanks for posting those links, Person Man.

[Chronos]

but since the initial inspiration was the amusing thought of an Ascetic monk,That'd be a great feat:

Ascetic Monk:

Prerequisites: Unarmed strike damage 1d6, Flurry of Blows class feature

Benefits: Your monk levels stack with your monk levels for determining your unarmed strike damage. Also, your monk levels stack with your monk levels for determing your unarmored AC bonus and Flurry of Blows ability.

[only1doug]

That'd be a great feat:

Ascetic Monk:

Prerequisites: Unarmed strike damage 1d6, Flurry of Blows class feature

Benefits: Your monk levels stack with your monk levels for determining your unarmed strike damage. Also, your monk levels stack with your monk levels for determing your unarmored AC bonus and Flurry of Blows ability.

Wow, that would actually make a monk viable; monk levels x2 for AC bonus and Blurry of Flows