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Frosty
2008-08-25, 06:35 PM
Bleh, my Dragon Shaman got bored with his character. Even with the PrC I made just for him he feels too constrained. Now he wants to play a Justiciar of some sort (I don't even think Justiciars are that versatile) so I guess I better brush myself up on what they're capable of (Hog-tie seems interesting...but is it viable?) and optimizing the hell of it aside, whether there are any guides for it to at least have an interesting charcter mechanics-wise. I don't want it to JUST be able to grapple and use-rope.

Level will be 14. Race...probably human. Alignment...probably Lawful Good. Most books accepted except campaign specific books (some Eberron stuff ok). Point buy is 40. 25% above standard WBL.

I need to talk to him on the concepts of the character and what he wants the character ot be able to do before I can give up any build advice.

Chronicled
2008-08-25, 06:37 PM
Factotum makes a great base class for it.

Frosty
2008-08-25, 06:40 PM
Factotum makes a great base class for it.

It might be...hmm...Int to Str checks eh? Not a bad idea. But he probably prefers full BAB classes.

Chronicled
2008-08-25, 06:42 PM
It might be...hmm...Int to Str checks eh? Not a bad idea. But he probably prefers full BAB classes.

Int to Str checks, Factotum level to his Use Rope skill check...

vicente408
2008-08-25, 06:43 PM
Looking for versatility? (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=88633)

Frosty
2008-08-25, 06:44 PM
Versatility, while taking into account having all Justiciar levels.

BTW, does anyonw know where the Light Flail is from?

vicente408
2008-08-25, 06:46 PM
Versatility, while taking into account having all Justiciar levels.

Gotcha. Never mind then.

playswithfire
2008-08-25, 07:00 PM
Versatility, while taking into account having all Justiciar levels.

BTW, does anyonw know where the Light Flail is from?

I think they meant Flail, as opposed to heavy flail, but I'm not sure.

Ranger 2/Bear Totem Barbarian 5/Justicar 8; more later

Zeta Kai
2008-08-25, 07:03 PM
Factotum makes a great base class for it.

No fair; Factotums make a great base for anything.

kpenguin
2008-08-25, 07:18 PM
If I recall, Person_Man had a few good Justicar builds...

Frosty
2008-08-25, 07:26 PM
Hog tie doesn't seem all that easy to pull off. Imean, your Use Rope checks has gotta be worse than yuor grapple checks. you don't get the +4 from Improved Grapple or Bear barbarian. Plus, you use your Dex instead of your Str (and you want STR so you *can* grapple in the first place). So unless the DM allows custom items of +10 Use Rope or something...

Frosty
2008-08-25, 07:29 PM
I think they meant Flail, as opposed to heavy flail, but I'm not sure.

Ranger 2/Bear Totem Barbarian 5/Justicar 8; more later

Won't you be getting Improved Grapple twice?

kpenguin
2008-08-25, 07:32 PM
Hog tie doesn't seem all that easy to pull off. Imean, your Use Rope checks has gotta be worse than yuor grapple checks. you don't get the +4 from Improved Grapple or Bear barbarian. Plus, you use your Dex instead of your Str (and you want STR so you *can* grapple in the first place). So unless the DM allows custom items of +10 Use Rope or something...

Well, you're going to put full ranks into Use Rope, right? That +3 more than your BAB right there. Assuming you're also using silk rope (who uses hemp?), you can add another +2 circumstance bonus on there.

Beyond that... I don't know. I just don't know.

Frosty
2008-08-25, 07:45 PM
*tries to summon personman*

playswithfire
2008-08-25, 09:14 PM
Won't you be getting Improved Grapple twice?

Unfortunately, yes, but you'll get another +4 to grapple checks while raging. This version would not want to use the Use Rope option since it can't while it's raging; it would just go off of Grapple checks.

Other things to buy if you want to go the grapple check route:
Scorpion's Claws - exotic weapon from Sandstorm - +4 to grapple checks
Gloves of Titan's Grip - psionic item; 14,000 gp - +8 enhancement bonus to grapple checks; activates 3 times a day for 9 rounds when you start a grapple; in both the SRD and MIC

Frosty
2008-08-25, 09:32 PM
So this will give him a decent bonus to grapples. But it won'tgive him *options* Are there anything that both synergizes as well as gives him more options? Obviously we're going for the strength route here. Maybe a class that does interesting things with bullrush or overrun?

What if I gave the Justiciar the Power Surge ability of the Kensai, and made the Concentration DC reset every Encounter instead of every 24 hours? I may have to adjust the DCs and the bonus though...

Person_Man
2008-08-25, 10:23 PM
*tries to summon personman*

I demand 1,000 xp for using Gate (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/spellsFtoG.html#gate) on me!

Moving on, it's worth mentioning that Justicars are somewhat weak - there are far better ways to Grapple enemies and/or kill them quickly. But hey, they're fluffy and can be fun. Also remember that you can make one Grapple check per attack, even after your enemy is Grappled. So assuming you can make a full attack, you should be able to Grapple, Pin, and Hogtie him all in one round. Also be sure to find some magical adamantine manacles and buy several of them.


So there are a couple different ways you can go with this:

Tank: Psychic Warrior 5/Swordsage 4/Justicar 5

This gets you sky high AC, solid Saves, 3 bonus feats, Expansion (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/expansion.htm), Vigor (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/vigor.htm), and Roots of the Mountain (Stone Dragon Stance). In addition to Track and Skill Focus (pre-reqs), take Quickdraw, Practiced Manifester, Exotic Weapon Prof (Mancatcher or Pincer Staff or Sharktooth Staff), Combat Focus, Combat Vigor, Combat Stability. Once your enemy is Grappled, you have +18 to resist his opposed Grapple checks that he'll need to make against you to get free, in addition to your bonus from Improved Grapple (free bonus feat) and your size (from Expansion), so you have all the time in the world to Hogtie him. For extra fun you can take Shield Specialization and Shield Ward (PHBII) to gain your shield bonus to touch and special attacks (easily in the +4 to +8 range). If you're fighting more then one enemy, use your powers (King of Smack redux is an option here) and maneuvers (you get a bunch). Also, with Fast Healing, DR, near immunity to most special attacks, and other defensive feats/powers/maneuvers up your sleeve, you should be ridiculously hard to kill.


Nannobots (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=458721): Whatever 7/Justicar 5/Exemplar 2

Take anything that gives you access to UMD and/or summons spells. Summon many things. Animate Objects (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/animateObjects.htm) is helpful for this. Or just use Diplomancy to convince a town of Grigs or other really small creatures to follow you around and help you. Have each of them Aid Another (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#aidAnother) to your Use Rope check. Remember that Aid Another bonuses are untyped, and the success rate should be quite high since you can Lend Talent via Exemplar (and Take 10 on your Use Rope check). Together, you should be able to Hogtie anything in one round.


Multi-Grappler: Whatever 6/Justicar 8

Have a sky high Dex. Take Combat Reflexes, Karmic Strike, Robilar's Gambit, TWF, Improved TWF, and Double Hit (Miniatures Handbook). Enemy swings and misses, you hit them twice. Enemy hits you, you hit enemy four times. Walk around provoking. Remember that you can always substitute a special attack (like a Grapple check) for a normal attack. Which means that each enemy gets one chance to hurt you before you Hogtie them.


Skill Monkey Grappler: Marshal 1/Factotum 3/Whatever 4/Justicar 5

Motivate Dexterity + Brains Over Brawn give you your Cha and Int to Dex checks and Skills. Cast the various 2nd level buff spells with wands to improve each of them. A level of Exemplar will give you another +4 and the ability to take 10 on Int bonus +1 Skills (UMD, Use Rope, Survival, Gather Info, etc). IMO, unless you're using nanobots its a lot harder to improve Use Rope then it is to improve your Grapple check. So I wouldn't use this unless y

Frosty
2008-08-25, 10:34 PM
The Tank build and Multi-Grappler intrigues me...but I don't have access to Miniatures book and we don't play with any psionics, so no Marshal for us. Still, tell me more about this Double-Hit feat. I may just let him have that feat or homebrew something like it. Does it mean he can strike twice for each provoke?

Arbitrarity
2008-08-25, 10:37 PM
I think for your tank you mean Crushing Weight of the Mountain, the one that gives you constrict.

Also, you can't take it. It requires IL 5, and you get 2 from psywar, and an additional 2 from swordsage by your second SS level. That's the last stance in that progression. You need another SS level, or another psywar level first, i.e. psywar 6/swordsage 3. However, this loses Insightful Strike.

I think double hit is two AOO's when dual wielding whenever someone provokes.

RTGoodman
2008-08-25, 11:49 PM
The Tank build and Multi-Grappler intrigues me...but I don't have access to Miniatures book and we don't play with any psionics, so no Marshal for us.

If not having the MH is what's keeping you from the Marshal, have no fear. The whole thing is online HERE (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20030906b).


Still, tell me more about this Double-Hit feat. I may just let him have that feat or homebrew something like it. Does it mean he can strike twice for each provoke?

Double Hit (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Double_Hit,all). Yep, each time you get an AoO, you make two attacks instead of one. Seems decent to me, and I'm surprised you don't hear as much about it as you might think.

Frosty
2008-08-26, 12:04 AM
The main problem is besides taking the Justiciar class, I don't quite know *what* he really wants to do with the character. If I know that, I can have a much better idea of how to guide him.

tyckspoon
2008-08-26, 12:19 AM
Double Hit (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Double_Hit,all). Yep, each time you get an AoO, you make two attacks instead of one. Seems decent to me, and I'm surprised you don't hear as much about it as you might think.

It's popular and common among Karmic Strike/Robilar's Gambit builds that focus on getting AoO, but for everybody else- just look at the requirements. Combat Reflexes, TWF, Improved TWF, and you have to be dual-wielding to use it. Both feat and stat-intensive unless you're a ranger, and many melee builds have better things to do with their feats. Like take the Power Attack/Shock Trooper combo instead.

Frosty
2008-08-26, 12:34 AM
Agreed. In general, it sucks ass to go TWF instead of Power Attack. Which is why I'm going to allow him to take one feat that'll scale as he levels. It's a homebrew feat which gives you a number of off hand attacks dependant on your BAB. You BAB/5 off-hand attacks, rounded up.

Person_Man
2008-08-26, 10:07 AM
I think for your tank you mean Crushing Weight of the Mountain, the one that gives you constrict.

Also, you can't take it. It requires IL 5, and you get 2 from psywar, and an additional 2 from swordsage by your second SS level. That's the last stance in that progression. You need another SS level, or another psywar level first, i.e. psywar 6/swordsage 3. However, this loses Insightful Strike..

No, I prefer Roots of the Mountain. A Justicar doesn't care about the extra damage from Constrict. Once his enemy is hogtied, its over. He can just leave him there or Coup de Grace him. So Roots of the Mountain is far more valuable, because it prevents them from ever escaping your Grapple, and it gives you DR and imposes a Tumble penalty.

Good call on the Initiator level though. Psywar 6/Swordsage 3 it is then. Or you can invest a feat in Martial Stance at higher level.



The main problem is besides taking the Justiciar class, I don't quite know *what* he really wants to do with the character. If I know that, I can have a much better idea of how to guide him.

Well, let us know if you do.

If you can't use the miniatures handbook or psionics, you can still use a Tank build, it just won't be as effective. You need Enlarge Person instead of Expansion, and healing/buff spells instead of psionic powers. So Cleric X/Swordsage Y/Justicar 5 or Druid X/Justicar Y (turn into an Ape, or take Frozen Wild Shape from Frostburn and change into a Frost Giant or something similar). Plus, nothing is more humiliating then being hogtied by a monkey Justicar.

Multi-Grappler works fine with just Karmic Strike and Rob's Gambit. Double Hit is a luxury, not a requirement. Just make sure there's someone in the party who can cast Enlarge Person. Maybe use a Ranger 1/Hexblade 4/Fighter 1 entrance, and pick up a debuff fear combo to make the Grapple check easier - though investing in fear (and not a damage or defense combo) means you're screwed if you come across anything you can't hogtie that's immune to fear - lots of enemies (dragons, aberrations, slimes, some undead and constructs, etc).

Frosty
2008-08-26, 10:09 AM
As a general strategy...in additional to grappling, how about taking things like Improved Trip and Improved Disarm? Whenever someone tries to hit him, he has the option of grappling, disarming, or tripping! He now just also needs Quickdraw and a lot of weaponds just in case he loses his own weapon in the process.

playswithfire
2008-08-26, 12:30 PM
Work in progress; INT-based Justicar; couple random things


16-level build stub; Human, but could be anything with one flaw


Factotum feat[Able Learner], human[Skill Focus(Gather Info)]
Factotum
Moon-Warded Ranger Track, feat[Kung-Fu Genius]
Moon-Warded Ranger WIS to AC unarmored, made INT with Kung-Fu Genius
Warblade
Warblade feat
Factotum
Justicar
Justicar Improved Grapple, feat
Justicar
Justicar
Justicar feat
Exemplar
Justicar
Justicar feat
Justicar

With only mundane equipment
Use Rope:
19 ranks +
4 competence (exemplar)*** +
2 circumstance silk rope +
2 synergy (escape artist 5 ranks) +
INT

Grapple:
15* BAB +
4 feat +
4 scorpion claws** +
INT

*assumes fractional BAB; else 14
** use weapon aptitude to change Exotic Weapon Proficiency from Manacles to Scorpion Claws
*** unfortunate that this is competence; probably better to just get a Ring of Use Rope +10, but at this point everything works in an anti-magic field

Frosty
2008-08-26, 06:34 PM
Where is Moon-warded ranger from?

playswithfire
2008-08-26, 06:54 PM
Dragon Magizine #340; or crystalkeep

You get a similar effect by applying the Wildshaping Ranger variant and then getting a friendly DM to let you apply the non-wildshaping druid variant to the result; both of those from UA/SRD

playswithfire
2008-08-26, 11:46 PM
An attempt at a 20th level skill-monkey Justicar

The build:

Variants used:
fractional BAB and saves
Half-humans and human-like races from Races of Destiny

Race: Half-Elf


1 Factotum feat[Able Learner]
flaw[Skill Focus(Gather Info)]
trait[Brawler]
Cunning Insight,Cunning Knowledge, trapfinding
2 Factotum Arcane Dilettante (1 spell)
3 Moon-Warded Ranger Track, Wild Empathy, Favored Enemy
feat[Carmendine Monk]
4 Moon-Warded Ranger Armor of the Senses
5 Warblade Battle clarity(Reflex saves), Weapon Aptitude
6 Warblade Uncanny Dodge, feat[Weapon Focus(anything)]
7 Factotum Brains over brawn, Cunning defense
3 inspiration points
8 Justicar
9 Justicar Improved Grapple, feat[Keen Intellect]
10 Justicar Exotic Weapon Proficiency(manacles)
11 Justicar Hog-tie
12 Justicar feat[OPEN]
13 Exemplar Skill Artistry, Skill Mastery
14 Justicar
15 Justicar feat[OPEN]
16 Justicar Improved Hog-tie
17 Enternal Blade Blade Guide
18 Enternal Blade Guided Strike, feat[OPEN]
19 Enternal Blade Improved Uncanny Dodge
eternal training 2/day
20 Enternal Blade Eternal Knowledge


* WIS to AC unarmored (like monk); converted to INT with Carmendine Monk


Where did I get that from?

Classes:
Factotum (Dungeonscape)
Moon-Warded Ranger (Dragon Magazine 340)
Warblade (Tome of Battle)
Justicar (Complete Warrior)
Exemplar (Complete Adventurer)
Eternal Blade (Tome of Battle)

Feats:
Able Learner, Human Heritage (Races of Destiny)
Carmendine Monk (Champions of Valor)
Keen Intellect (Dragon Magazine 318)


Some features of note:
All skills are always class skills
All skills that are not CHA or CON-based are INT based
BAB 19 (fractional)
Base Saves 10/11/10 (fractional) including Battle Clarity
With no items, can always get a 41+INT on Use Rope checks

Advice/Criticism welcome

Frosty
2008-08-26, 11:54 PM
Query: How did you take Able Learner as an Elf?

playswithfire
2008-08-27, 12:04 AM
Query: How did you take Able Learner as an Elf?
Mentioned under variants used at the bottom of the build spoiler:
Half-humans and human-like races variant from Races of Destiny which lets half-elves, half-orcs etc also qualify as humans. Alternatively, I could have him take the Human Heritage feat and use another flaw to get Able Learner

I'll move the variant used to the top of the build spoiler

Frosty
2008-08-28, 10:08 AM
My player just mentioned that he may be going in as a Rogue before prestiging into Justiciar. Any ways to optimize this? I guess he wants more sneak attack or something.