PDA

View Full Version : Gestalt Build Challenge Returns: The Invulnerable [voting]



dspeyer
2008-08-25, 09:42 PM
Clearly I'm not the only one who misses DukeOfURL's build challenges. Let's see if I can create one.


RETURN OF THE GESTALT BUILD CHALLENGE: THE INVULNERABLE

"Asking for it, coming in here and calling yourself 'Vincent the Invulnerable'."
- Barman of The Mended Drum, Soul Music, Terry Pratchett

This challenge is to create the character with the best defense. Even the most resourceful adventuring party should be scratching their heads trying to figure out how to take him down.

"Gestalt Build Challenge" General Rules

We'll follow Duke of URL's old rules plus one clarification from me. For numeric attributes with progressions (such as BAB and saves) first determine at each level which progression the attribute follows, then count how many levels of each progression you have, then index into the progressions, then add them together. This means that a fighter 1 / sorceror 19 // wizard 20 has 1 level of good BAB and 19 of bad, giving +1 and +11 respectively for a total BAB of +12. Similarly, a character with 20 different marshal classes gets a base fort save of +12, not +40. It's not addressed in the gestalt or multiclassing rules, but this tends to make the most reasonable builds.

Here are Duke of URL's old rules, for those who have forgotten them. Spoilered because they're long


Unless otherwise specified in the specific challenge, the following rules and guidelines are always in effect:
Gestalt builds; 28-point buy; use any WOTC 3.5 product (including Dragon magazine) except where noted (only 3.0 products with an official upgrade to 3.5 are allowed)
Make all builds to ECL 20. However, indicate the minimum ECL the build is playable at (the level at which all LA and/or racial HD, if applicable, are accounted for) and label any level that indicates a "power break" where the build has a significant jump in power level. Provide a detailed description of how the build operates.
Any race with a listed level adjustment is allowed (no racial progressions from Savage Species, please). LA and HD each apply to one side of the gestalt; you may include LA and HD on the same side as each other, or on other sides. No LA buyoff. LA is applied before racial HD, which must be paid off before class levels on that side. Examples: LA X / RHD Y / class Z / ... // class A / ... -OR- LA X / class Y / ... // RHD A / class B / ...
Multiclass at will, but see "voting".
Up to two flaws are allowed, but see "voting".
Templates are allowed, but see "voting".
Voting: Upon the close of entries for each challenge, members of the forum may vote in-thread for the build that best represents the goals set out by the challenge. The voting criteria should consist of: Functionality: How well does the build do in its primary role as specified in the challenge? Weaknesses: Does the build have any glaring weaknesses that can be exploited? Playability: How much of the 1-20 level range can the build be played at and be effective? Creativity: Clever use of races, classes, and/or feats that may not be "typical" choices Cheese: Minimizing the number of cheese points Using flaws (1 point each) Ignoring mutliclassing penalties -- some DMs actually do enforce this in gestalt (1 point each) Single-level dips that would require several pages of justification to RP properly (1 point each) Templates that would require several pages of justification to RP properly (1 point per +1 LA) Attempting to use more than one PrC at any given level (1 point each) Attempting to use "dual progression" PrCs (1,000,000 points each) Over-dependence on items (1 point per indispensable item) Over-dependence on Diplomacy or Use Magic Device skills (1,000,000 points each)


Special Rule for this Contest
All characters must be alive. No undead. No constructs. Those types have too many special destruction rules. Outsiders are ok.

Chronos
2008-08-25, 09:48 PM
Hm, I've been toying with some ideas along these lines, myself... I'll probably enter.

When's the deadline?

Emperor Tippy
2008-08-25, 10:02 PM
No persistent Timeless Body I take it (complete immunity to anything and everything).

dspeyer
2008-08-25, 10:05 PM
No persistent Timeless Body I take it (complete immunity to anything and everything).

I didn't know that existed! Yes, let's ban it.

dspeyer
2008-08-25, 10:09 PM
When's the deadline?

Let's make it one week. The deadline is Monday, Sept 1, 11:15pmEDT.

Rei_Jin
2008-08-25, 10:11 PM
Do you want us to use fractional saves and attack bonus? The rules for it are spelled out in Unearthed Arcana and at www.d20srd.org

Douglas
2008-08-25, 10:47 PM
That's essentially what he meant with that clarification above the spoiler block, I think.

Can Persistent Spell and Extend Spell be applied simultaneously to give a spell a 48 hour duration at a +7 spell slot adjustment?

Oh, and what exactly are the multiclassing xp rules that we get penalized for ignoring? Would a base class X 20//base class Y 10/PrC Z 10 get penalized if neither X nor Y are favored for the character? Personally, I would rule that either each PrC is added to one clearly associated base class before levels are compared or each side of the gestalt is considered separately.

Also, I assume attempting to hide from the adventurers is counter to the purpose of this challenge. The "invulnerable" character is supposed to allow himself to be found easily specifically so that he can laugh at the party's pathetic attempts to harm him. Or at least that's how I interpret it.

chiasaur11
2008-08-25, 11:28 PM
I recommend Serpent Kingdoms be banned too.

We all know why.

Talic
2008-08-25, 11:47 PM
Pun Pun is pretty much informally banned in all of these. Just sayin.

Still, I'll have to think of something. Let's see, how to stack as many immunities/resistances/etc into one build.

I'l even go without Tauric. I mean +7 total LA (4HD + 3 ECL) for what it gives (+yes for physical stats, and such) is just retarded good. Especially since, at level 4 (1st available level with gestalt) it's essentially unkillable, at 100+ HP, 40+ AC, 25+ Touch AC, and a Str modifier of higher than +30... Oh, and saves somewhere close to +15 or 20.

chiasaur11
2008-08-25, 11:52 PM
Pun Pun is pretty much informally banned in all of these. Just sayin.



I figured. Just wanted to be sure.

Not that anyone'd be stupid enough to try.

crazedloon
2008-08-25, 11:57 PM
Hmm sounds rather fun ill have me a build up in a day or so :smallbiggrin:

What sort of cheese will these need to live against ?

JeminiZero
2008-08-26, 12:15 AM
What sort of cheese will these need to live against ?

A good yardstick for invulnerability might be the Twice Betrayer of Shar.

I think.

dspeyer
2008-08-26, 12:36 AM
Some answers:

Fractional saves/bab: I couldn't find this in the UA section of the SRD. I suspect it works out about the same as what I outlined, except maybe for the level 1 saves issue (since saves are relevant here, don't abuse that).

Multiclassing penalties: I'd forgotten about that rule. I don't think we ever worked out how to apply it. Let's just drop it.

Stealth: perfectly legitimate strategy so long as you can still achieve plot-significant goals (kill enemies, obtain macguffins, destroy empires).

Serpent Kingdoms: no need to ban the whole book. Of course pun-pun, the omnificer, and other well-known cheese are banned.

Gralamin
2008-08-26, 07:01 AM
Indomitable Spirit
"I shed my body, for it was weak, and my spirit unstoppable."
Race: Human
Attributes: 15/10/8/16/8/15 before levels
Final Attributes: 16/10/8/20/8/15

{table=head]Side 1|Side 2|(non-bonus) Feats
Psion (Kineticist) 1|Warblade 1|Psionic Body, Psychic Renewal
Psion 2|Warblade 2|-
Psion 3|Warblade 3|Extend Power
Psion 4|Warblade 4|-
Psion 5|Warblade 5|-
Psion Uncarnate 1|Warblade 6|Free Feat
Psion Uncarnate 2|Warblade 7|-
Psion Uncarnate 3|Warblade 8|-
Psion Uncarnate 4|Warblade 9|Free Feat
Psion Uncarnate 5|Warblade 10|-
Psion Uncarnate 6|Warblade 11|-
Psion Uncarnate 7|Warblade 12|Free Feat
Psion Uncarnate 8|Warblade 13|-
Psion Uncarnate 9|Warblade 14|-
Psion Uncarnate 10|Warblade 15|Ghostly Grasp (Libris Mortis)
Psion 6|Warblade 16|-
Psion 7|Warblade 17|-
Psion 8|Warblade 18|Free Feat
Psion 9|Warblade 19|-
Psion 10|Warblade 20|-[/table]

This build is quite simple. You are an incorporeal being who can wield corporeal weapons. You are also not undead, or a construct. Your a humanoid with the Incorporeal subtype. Pick up Null Psionics Field ASAP, its the only power you will ever use come level 15.
At ML 16 and 261 pp, you can easily use Extend Power on Null Psionics Field. That's 65 pp to be covered in a field for just under 27 hours, leaving you with 196 pp.

Invulnerability
This guy is invulnerable as hes in a Null Psionics Field and is incorporeal as an (Ex) ability. He has a feat which lets him grab corporeal items (In case he cannot) This means he is almost impossible to damage (I'm not up to date with all the Anti Magic Field tricks, so he may be vulnerable to something. There also may be an Incorporeal attacking (Ex) ability out there). He then picks up a normal corporeal weapon and goes to town with his (Ex) Warblade abilities. You can use a swift action to recover powers you've used with your huge amount of left over power points. So you have good warblade power recovery, and near invulnerability.

Talic
2008-08-26, 07:58 AM
Indomitable Spirit
"I shed my body, for it was weak, and my spirit unstoppable."
Race: Human
Attributes: 15/10/8/16/8/15 before levels
Final Attributes: 16/10/8/20/8/15

{table=head]Side 1|Side 2|(non-bonus) Feats
Psion (Kineticist) 1|Warblade 1|Psionic Body, Psychic Renewal
Psion 2|Warblade 2|-
Psion 3|Warblade 3|Extend Power
Psion 4|Warblade 4|-
Psion 5|Warblade 5|-
Psion Uncarnate 1|Warblade 6|Free Feat
Psion Uncarnate 2|Warblade 7|-
Psion Uncarnate 3|Warblade 8|-
Psion Uncarnate 4|Warblade 9|Free Feat
Psion Uncarnate 5|Warblade 10|-
Psion Uncarnate 6|Warblade 11|-
Psion Uncarnate 7|Warblade 12|Free Feat
Psion Uncarnate 8|Warblade 13|-
Psion Uncarnate 9|Warblade 14|-
Psion Uncarnate 10|Warblade 15|Ghostly Grasp (Libris Mortis)
Psion 6|Warblade 16|-
Psion 7|Warblade 17|-
Psion 8|Warblade 18|Free Feat
Psion 9|Warblade 19|-
Psion 10|Warblade 20|-[/table]

This build is quite simple. You are an incorporeal being who can wield corporeal weapons. You are also not undead, or a construct. Your a humanoid with the Incorporeal subtype. Pick up Null Psionics Field ASAP, its the only power you will ever use come level 15.
At ML 16 and 261 pp, you can easily use Extend Power on Null Psionics Field. That's 65 pp to be covered in a field for just under 27 hours, leaving you with 196 pp.

Invulnerability
This guy is invulnerable as hes in a Null Psionics Field and is incorporeal as an (Ex) ability. He has a feat which lets him grab corporeal items (In case he cannot) This means he is almost impossible to damage (I'm not up to date with all the Anti Magic Field tricks, so he may be vulnerable to something. There also may be an Incorporeal attacking (Ex) ability out there). He then picks up a normal corporeal weapon and goes to town with his (Ex) Warblade abilities. You can use a swift action to recover powers you've used with your huge amount of left over power points. So you have good warblade power recovery, and near invulnerability.

Various Orb spells could still get him, as they're instantaneous conjuration effects, and are energy damage. Further, nonmagical energy sources are an option, such as Torches, and the like. Still, quite solid.

Useful to note that the biggest weakness would be a sundering combatant. Well, that and anything that gets rid of null magic/psionics.

Duke of URL
2008-08-26, 02:12 PM
*sniff* My little baby has grown up and taken a life of it's own... *sniff*

Jack_Simth
2008-08-26, 04:54 PM
Invulnerability
This guy is invulnerable as hes in a Null Psionics Field and is incorporeal as an (Ex) ability. He has a feat which lets him grab corporeal items (In case he cannot) This means he is almost impossible to damage (I'm not up to date with all the Anti Magic Field tricks, so he may be vulnerable to something. There also may be an Incorporeal attacking (Ex) ability out there). He then picks up a normal corporeal weapon and goes to town with his (Ex) Warblade abilities. You can use a swift action to recover powers you've used with your huge amount of left over power points. So you have good warblade power recovery, and near invulnerability.
A few notes:
1) You get bonus feats at Psion 1, 5, and 10 that you don't list - no need to play a human, and plenty of reason to play an Elan. Not particularly critical to the build, but good to know.
2) As mentioned, instantaneous conjuration effects technically get through, as do mundane energy effects. They mostly do hit point damage - and with your 8 con, those will kill you despite the big warblade hit dice.
3) As an Incorporeal creature, you have no strength score (it's part of the Incorporeal subtype). You don't want to dump a 15 there.
4) As an Incorporeal creature, you want at least some Charisma, as it's a deflection bonus to AC.
5) Disjunction has a chance of destroying a Null Psionics field. This is liable to kill you, as you have no real defenses beyond said Null Psionics field.
6) Watch out for other incorporeal creatures - they can still hurt you.
7) There are a few methods by which it is possible to cast in an antimagic field - the Initiate of Mystreria (sp?) feat, the Invoke Magic spell, and a few others. Just because you're in what amounts to an antimagic field, doesn't mean magic can't be used on you.
8) The Soulknife can make a concentration check to manifest the class blade in a null psionic field. And it's magical.
9) Constructs are not affected by an antimagic field, and intelligent magic items are treated as constructs. Which means that +3 Intelligent Hammer is going to lay the smack down on you (especially with your 8 con).
10) Magic-Psionics transparency, while the default for most campaigns, is not a given. Depending on your DM, you may still be vulnerable to normal magic.

I'm sure there's other ways around the invulnerability. Basically, though, the problem amounts to him being a one-trick pony, and min-maxing everything around the assumption that he can't be harmed.

It's a pity about the "no undead" rule - a ghost with 15 hit dice can't fail the hit die check, which means there's only a single, obscure PrC that can permanently kill him before the "purpose" is fulfilled (plus antimagic fields, depending on DM interpertation).

Hmm.... True Mind Switch is a workaround for that.

Human (sort-of - could also use Elan or whatever happens to be your favorite race - mostly it's immaterial to the trick in use):
Psion(Telepath)-20//Ghost-5/Rest Not Relevant-15
Feats not relevant.
Most powers not relevant.

Relevant power: True Mind Switch (from Psion(Telepath)).
Relevant ability: Rejuvenation (from Ghost template).
Now, this only meets qualifications at level 17+, when the thing has access to True Mind Switch.

See, True Mind Switch is essentially an Instant version of Mind Switch - and Mind Switch specifies you keep your own Su abilities, but you gain the type of your assumed body. So the Psion Ghost that uses True Mind Switch on a living creature keeps the Ghost's Rejuvenation ability, while getting the type of the living creature targeted. Depending on the DM, the only thing that can kill this bloke for good is death in an antimagic field (which suppresses Su abilities, such as rejuvenation) or solving his "purpose" that keeps him restless. Mind you, he can still be trapped for all eternity, dominated, and so on, but not killed. No particular alignment restriction for the trick - displacing an intelligent being might be evil, but you only need to target something that's living, not necessarily intelligent. There's a lot of Int-2 or less Magical Beasts that are good for this if you want to be nonevil, and take, say, the Vow of Poverty.

If anyone has a method (ideally a feat to be taken at 18th, or a PrC that can culimate after 18th level) by which to turn a Su ability into an Ex ability, to eliminate the death in an anti-magic field vulnerability, refinements are welcome.

Level build:
The Living Ghost

Base Stats: 10/10/10/18/10/12
Racial (Ghost + Elan) Adjusted stats: 10/10/-/18/10/14
Level adjusted stats: 10/10/-/23/10/14
Vow of Poverty stats (20th): 16/14/-/31/12/14
Final (post-Imp takeover) stats: 16/21/10/31/12/14 (note: These can go higher, as the Psion can take Reality Revision to stack Inherent bonuses)
{table=head]Side 1|Side 2|(non-bonus) Feats|Psion bonus feats|Monk Bonus Feats
Psion(Telepath)-1|Ghost LA 1|Sacred Vow|Psionic Body|
Psion(Telepath)-2|Ghost LA 2|||
Psion(Telepath)-3|Ghost LA 3|Vow of Poverty||
Psion(Telepath)-4|Ghost LA 4|||
Psion(Telepath)-5|Ghost LA 5||Psionic Meditation|
Psion(Telepath)-6|Monk-1|Kung-Fu Genius (Dragon magizine)||Improved Grapple
Psion(Telepath)-7|Monk-2|||Deflect Arrows
Psion(Telepath)-8|Monk-3|||
Psion(Telepath)-9|Monk-4|Power Penetration||
Psion(Telepath)-10|Monk-5||Expanded Knoweledge(Astral Construct)|
Psion(Telepath)-11|Monk-6|||Improved Trip
Psion(Telepath)-12|Monk-7|Boost Construct||
Psion(Telepath)-13|Monk-8|||
Psion(Telepath)-14|Monk-9|||
Psion(Telepath)-15|Monk-10|Greater Power Penetration|Overchannel|
Psion(Telepath)-16|Monk-11|||
Psion(Telepath)-17|Monk-12|||
Psion(Telepath)-18|Monk-13|Talented||
Psion(Telepath)-19|Monk-14|||
Psion(Telepath)-20|Monk-15||Unconditional Power|
[/table]

Base Race: Elan, +Ghost Template. At 17th, use True Mind Switch on a critter of your choice. As a Psion, and as a Monk, funny bodies aren't particularly limiting (no material components to worry about, monk abilities are not based on form). Kung-Fu Genious just makes Monk abilities key off of Int, rather than Wisdom. I'm treating a Con of - as costing the same as a Con of 10 for this build. Uses True Mind Switch on an Imp in this particular build, just because it doth amuse me. I'm sure there are better choices out there.
Fifteen levels of all good saves, an additional five levels of good Will saves, Int to AC, boosted speed, full manifesting and (if killed - which is doable, but not particularly easy) reforms in 2d4 days.

Minimum playable: 5th (once LA is paid off)
Power Breaks:
15th: When you can no longer fail a Rejuvenation check.
17th: True Mind Switch gets rid of all undead vulnerabilites.

Talic
2008-08-26, 11:45 PM
I hate the no undead rule. I had one with no special destruction methods. Just a minimum save of around +38 (that was Fort), permanently undetectable, and a few dozen SLA's/special attacks in the Save DC 50 range.

@^: undead are out. 2nd, even if they weren't, I believe you'd be immune to your own True Mind Switch, and thus be unable to do it.

dspeyer
2008-08-27, 12:39 AM
Sith -- The Dark Side of Force
Race: Rakshasa
Classes: rhd 7 / sorceror 3 / argent savant 5 / initiate of the sevenfold veil 5 // la 7 / monk 2 / paladin of tyranny 4 / favored soul of hextor 7
STR: 8 DEX: 18 CON: 20 INT: 12 WIS: 16 CHA: 22 (boost cha)
Vital feats: ascetic mage, quicken spell, dmm quicken spell and the prereqs for 7fold veil

At level 13, Extend Force makes mage armor last all day, and Force Armor increases it to +6. Combined with ascetic mage and rakshasa natural armor, this gives an unequipped AC of 35. For more, cast shield for another +6, and it's low-level enough to quicken.

All saves are good, except 4 levels of reflex, and they all get cha added to them. Evasion from monk.

D8 and D10 hit dice, with high con.

DR 15 / good and piercing (fairly hard to come by) and SR 20+level (fairly hard to beat). Resistance 5 to one energy type and to force damage.

Personal wards, with the first five veils.

If hurt, favored soul offers decent healing, and PoT gives enough rebuke undead for two dmm-quickened spells a day. If it's worse, arcanely teleport away.

All of this is only needed if his enemies can find him. Change shape should sow some confusion, and detect thoughts should give plenty of warning if his enemies are on to him.

And for getting things done, he casts as a 19th level sorceror.

The only weakness I can think of is poor skills. The outsider hit dice are good, but the rest is mostly 3/level, and Iot7V consumes them. Some skill-boosting (or int-boosting) equipment might be worthwhile.

Gralamin
2008-08-27, 01:12 AM
A few notes:
1) You get bonus feats at Psion 1, 5, and 10 that you don't list - no need to play a human, and plenty of reason to play an Elan. Not particularly critical to the build, but good to know.
This was mostly done when half a sleep. Yes race doesn't particularly matter.

2) As mentioned, instantaneous conjuration effects technically get through, as do mundane energy effects. They mostly do hit point damage - and with your 8 con, those will kill you despite the big warblade hit dice.
The incorporeal subtype states "It is immune to all nonmagical attack forms". That suggests that a torch or similiar object would have no effect.

3) As an Incorporeal creature, you have no strength score (it's part of the Incorporeal subtype). You don't want to dump a 15 there.
4) As an Incorporeal creature, you want at least some Charisma, as it's a deflection bonus to AC.
So more Con, more Charisma, less Strength.

5) Disjunction has a chance of destroying a Null Psionics field. This is liable to kill you, as you have no real defenses beyond said Null Psionics field.
I'd assume the character would have a bit more equipment then just a sword, its just wasn't particularly worth mentioning at the time.

6) Watch out for other incorporeal creatures - they can still hurt you.
Yes, this is a problem. Thankfully the warblade abilities should help alleviate this.

7) There are a few methods by which it is possible to cast in an antimagic field - the Initiate of Mystreria (sp?) feat, the Invoke Magic spell, and a few others. Just because you're in what amounts to an antimagic field, doesn't mean magic can't be used on you.
As I stated, I really don't know much about the antimagic field tricks. I'm not sure how to really fix this problem with the build.

8) The Soulknife can make a concentration check to manifest the class blade in a null psionic field. And it's magical.
I forgot all about the Soulknife. Your right, it would be the bane of this build.

9) Constructs are not affected by an antimagic field, and intelligent magic items are treated as constructs. Which means that +3 Intelligent Hammer is going to lay the smack down on you (especially with your 8 con).
I didn't know intelligent items are still magical in that anti-magic zones. That is nice to know.

10) Magic-Psionics transparency, while the default for most campaigns, is not a given. Depending on your DM, you may still be vulnerable to normal magic.
I went with the base assumption, since I saw no reason to beleive differently.

Hmm, #9 gives me an idea. Warforged, enchant body armor so its magical. You are a construct, and so is your armor, so awaken your armor. Use Polymorph any Object or similar abilities to turn your armor into a humanoid. Have it train as an artificer. Have it take levels in Renegade Master Maker. Repeat the process.
I don't think that really applies for this build challenge though.

Talic
2008-08-27, 01:44 AM
Side note, constructs are affected by AMF. They don't lose any locomotive powers, but they lose all Spell like/Supernatural abilities. And enhancement bonuses derived from magic.

Jack_Simth
2008-08-27, 06:18 AM
I hate the no undead rule. I had one with no special destruction methods. Just a minimum save of around +38 (that was Fort), permanently undetectable, and a few dozen SLA's/special attacks in the Save DC 50 range.

@^: undead are out. 2nd, even if they weren't, I believe you'd be immune to your own True Mind Switch, and thus be unable to do it.
A few things.... prior to 17th, he's immune to mind-affecting effects merely as a function of type. Ghosts have the option of Malevolence, which is a Magic Jar effect - which also changes type - getting rid of the immunity to Mind-affecting effects. That's not a particular barrier.

Besides - he's only initially undead. At level 17 (well, once 10,000 xp past level 17....), he becomes a living, breathing creature, just like any other (other than having a few nifty Su abilities, some racial skill bonuses, and so on).

Chronicled
2008-08-27, 03:16 PM
I forgot all about the Soulknife. Your right, it would be the bane of this build.

Does anyone else find this rather hilarious?

Vexxation
2008-08-27, 03:19 PM
Does anyone else find this rather hilarious?

I, one of the only people on this (or any) board who like the Soulknife, indeed find it funny.

CASTLEMIKE
2008-08-27, 03:26 PM
Human

If anyone has a method (ideally a feat to be taken at 18th, or a PrC that can culimate after 18th level) by which to turn a Su ability into an Ex ability, to eliminate the death in an anti-magic field vulnerability, refinements are welcome.


Page 47 Heroes of Horror +0LA Soul-Locked template (Similar to Ghost Rejuvenation) for monsters could do the trick since it grants the monster a single specific way of permanently dispatching it (Killed in a AMF shouldn't count once the AMF goes away but needs DM permission for PCs although BBEGs can have it:smallsmile:

Swapping out a level for Cloistered Cleric or Cleric and meeting the alignment and world restrictions to take the Inititate of Mystra Domain would plug most of that hole. Maybe you can take a Psionic Disciple since there is supposed to be transparency to mimic Arcane Disciple.

Jack_Simth
2008-08-27, 04:11 PM
Page 47 Heroes of Horror +0LA Soul-Locked template (Similar to Ghost Rejuvenation) for monsters could do the trick since it grants the monster a single specific way of permanently dispatching it (Killed in a AMF shouldn't count once the AMF goes away but needs DM permission for PCs although BBEGs can have it:smallsmile:

Swapping out a level for Cloistered Cleric or Cleric and meeting the alignment and world restrictions to take the Inititate of Mystra Domain would plug most of that hole. Maybe you can take a Psionic Disciple since there is supposed to be transparency to mimic Arcane Disciple.
I've looked at the Soul-Locked template. It's +0 CR, no LA adjustment listed at all. Or, to put it another way, it's "LA: --" (unavailable to PC's), not LA +0.

But if you grant me that death in an AMF doesn't matter when it's a Su ability that rejuvenates the character, it then doesn't matter if there's an AMF present or not - the character will still come back eventually until his purpose is fulfilled. Make his purpose something utterly impossible with a continuing campaign (the complete and permanent eradication of all evil everywhere in the multiverse, maybe) and he's good to go.

CASTLEMIKE
2008-08-27, 04:57 PM
I've looked at the Soul-Locked template. It's +0 CR, no LA adjustment listed at all. Or, to put it another way, it's "LA: --" (unavailable to PC's), not LA +0.

But if you grant me that death in an AMF doesn't matter when it's a Su ability that rejuvenates the character, it then doesn't matter if there's an AMF present or not - the character will still come back eventually until his purpose is fulfilled. Make his purpose something utterly impossible with a continuing campaign (the complete and permanent eradication of all evil everywhere in the multiverse, maybe) and he's good to go.

A Ghost might technically qualify for the Soul Locked template based on it's wording mostly threw it in as brainstorming.

It's gray some DM/GMs might rule if your PC died in a AMF without something like the Initiate of Mystra Domain the connection would be broken for regular rejuvenation. Soul Locked is interesting because you can only be killed by one method kind of a Super Rejuvenation.

Fiery Discorporation with Initiate of Mystra might not be a bad idea either.

Jack_Simth
2008-08-27, 05:45 PM
A Ghost might technically qualify for the Soul Locked template based on it's wording mostly threw it in as brainstorming.

It's gray some DM/GMs might rule if your PC died in a AMF without something like the Initiate of Mystra Domain the connection would be broken for regular rejuvenation. Soul Locked is interesting because you can only be killed by one method kind of a Super Rejuvenation.

Fiery Discorporation with Initiate of Mystra might not be a bad idea either.
Let's see.... Initiate of Mystra unfortunately applies to spells, and unlike Spell-like abilities, Supernatural abilities do not have that little clause in their description that they otherwise work just like spells.

Given transparency, yeah - swap out most of the Monk levels for Cleric levels to qualify for Initiate of Mystra, then carry a lit torch everywhere. But then, you're making an opposed caster level check, so it's still iffy to pull off.

Likewise, Invoke Magic only permits 4th level or lower spells to work (funny that it doesn't include an exception to permit you to cast it in a dead magic zone...), and you can't make use of that with Su abilities.

Don't get me wrong - it's good brainstorming - but it relies somewhat heavily on a DM filling in not-mentioned spots in the rules that don't exist in a favorable manner - which is something to avoid in these exercises.

Chronos
2008-08-27, 09:06 PM
I can't believe I managed to get in before someone posted an IKEA Tarrasque build...

Horgoth the Healthy:

LE phrenic fire-souled mineral warrior dwarf binder 20// LA 4/moon-warded ranger 3/deepwarden 2/warblade 1/monk 2/fist of the forest 2/dwarf paragon 3/witch hunter 2/X 1

Str 10
Dex 8
Con 24 plus level-up points
Int 14
Wis 14
Cha 12

Minimum playable level: 5

Level 20 defenses: AC 71 (flatfooted 71, touch 56), Fort +33, Ref +27 or Conc check, Will +33 or Conc check, +3 to saves vs. spells, spell-likes, or poisons, +2 to saves vs. supernatural
Level 20 HP: 6d12+2d10+12d8+340 (average 447)

{table=head]ECL|Left class|Right class|Feats|Special
1|Binder 1|Phrenic LA 1|Great Fortitude|1 vestige, half-dragon traits
2|Binder 2|Phrenic LA 2||Pact augmentation 1, suppress sign
3|Binder 3|Fire-Souled LA 1|Combat Expertise|
4|Binder 4|Mineral Warrior LA 1|Improved Binding|Mineral warrior traits
5|Binder 5|Moon-Warded Ranger 1|Track|Pact augmentation 2, favored enemy, wild empathy
6|Binder 6|Ranger 2|Insightful Reflexes|Soul guardian (immune to fear), Armor of the Senses (wis to AC)
7|Binder 7|Ranger 3|Endurance|
8|Binder 8|Deepwarden 1||2 vestiges, trap sense
9|Binder 9|Deepwarden 2|Steadfast Determination|Soul guardian (slippery mind), stone warden (con to AC instead of dex)
10|Binder 10|Warblade 1||Pact augmentation 3, battle clarity (int to reflex), weapon aptitude, maneuvers
11|Binder 11|Monk 1|Improved Unarmed Strike, Improved Grapple, Defense against the Supernatural|Flurry of blows, unarmed strike
12|Binder 12|Monk 2|Deflect Arrows, Stone Power|Evasion
13|Binder 13|Fist of the Forest 1||Soul guardian (immune to energy drain), Con to AC while unarmored, fast movement +10, feral trance 1/day, feral living, unarmed damage 1d8
14|Binder 14|Fist of the Forest 2||3 vestiges, uncanny dodge, untamed strike
15|Binder 15|Dwarf Paragon 1|Improved Combat Expertise|Craft expertise, improved stonecunning
16|Binder 16|Dwarf Paragon 2||Pact augmentation 4, improved darkvision, save bonus
17|Binder 17|Dwarf Paragon 3||Con +2
18|Binder 18|Witch Hunter 1|Ignore Special Requirements, Boost Spell Resistance|Smite spirit sharer
19|Binder 19|Witch Hunter 2||Soul guardian (mind blank), mettle
20|Binder 20|X 1||Pact augmentation 5, 4 vestiges[/table]

Skills: Prerequisites, plus maxed Concentration (+39)

Typical vestiges: Acercerak, Buer, Balam, either Haagenti or Dalver-Nar
Typical pact augmentation: 5 acid resistance, 20 sonic resistance
Martial maneuvers: Moment of Perfect Mind, Action before Thought, Mountain Hammer, Stonefoot Stance

Equipment (not exhaustive): Whip (not proficient, but he doesn't care), Necklace of Adaptation, Belt of Magnificence +6, Manual of Bodily Health +5, Ring of Freedom of Movement/Sustenance, Ring of Protection +5, Cloak of Resistance +5, Bracers of Armor +8, paid to have Cause Deafness cast on himself

While it would be theoretically possible to hurt Horgoth, it would be very, very difficult. First, almost all attacks have to get past one of his defenses, which are high enough as to almost certainly require a 20 on the attack roll or a 1 on a Ref or Will saving throw (if the attack allows for an attack roll or save). Further, he can substitute a Concentration check for a Reflex or Will saving throw, and once every five rounds he can re-roll a saving throw if necessary. Any save which is successful has no effect, thanks to Evasion and Mettle. He can also gain an additional +20 to his AC using Improved Combat Expertise and fighting defensively, if there's anything to attack within 15'.

Even if an attack makes it through these defenses, however, he still has resistances or immunities against many harmful effects. His Binder class features give him immunity to all mind-affecting effects, negative levels, and energy drain, and resistance 5 to acid and 20 to sonic damage. His typical vestiges give him immunity to cold and lightning damage, healing from negative energy, immunity to poison and disease, fast healing 4, and either immunity to transformations, or the ability to shunt off half of the damage he takes to another target and an additional +8 to natural armor.

He has power resistance (and by transparency, spell resistance) 30 from the Phrenic template (boosted to 32 by the Boost Spell Resistance feat). Although this is defeatable by an equal-level spellcaster, it's still one more thing to get through.

He's also immune to fire and has DR 8/adamantine from his templates, and his equipment protects him against any effect which would hinder his movement, and dangerous vapors or lack of air. He's immune to Blasphemy and Dictum by virtue of his alignment, and to Word of Chaos and Holy Word by virtue of being deaf.

Even if something manages to get through, it's likely to be erased by the 10 temporary HP he gains every round he can attack, and his fast healing.

Still needs a little more work... I still need one more level of something

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-08-27, 09:26 PM
I'd suggest a couple of the Luck feats, maybe a level of whichever class it was that used them. Re-rolls for those rare chances he rolls a 1. Also, he needs a way to escape no-save, no-hit, just die, spells and combos. You may also want to sneak imp. evasion in there if you can. Just for completeness' sake.

Chronos
2008-08-27, 10:00 PM
I already have a reroll once every five rounds, from Balam, which should be plenty. And I think I'm completely immune to all of the no-save-just-die spells/combos... Do you know of one in particular I missed?

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-08-27, 10:04 PM
No, I'm just thinking of Forcecage or something.

Just as my strategy, as a natural Beguiler ;)After fighting him a couple times, and running away each time, I'd steal something he wants, then use a scroll to Gate away. If he chases me, he's on the positive energy plane, and I don't see caster levels in there(Binder doesn't count;)), and if he doesn't, I have the MacGuffin. How does he escape

CASTLEMIKE
2008-08-27, 10:04 PM
Given transparency, yeah - swap out most of the Monk levels for Cleric levels to qualify for Initiate of Mystra, then carry a lit torch everywhere. But then, you're making an opposed caster level check, so it's still iffy to pull off.



What about a Shrink Item for addressing Fiery Discorporation? The fire source is on your person and aflame, just shrunken.

Douglas
2008-08-27, 10:09 PM
I don't feel like putting in the effort required to optimize and fully stat out such a character, but I believe a Spellscale Wizard 5/Incantatrix 10/PrC 5//Archivist 20 could manage all or nearly all of the buff list for this party (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=81794) by using both Persist and Extend to get 48 hour durations, which allows spending two days worth of spell slots on his buffs. Body Outside Body for the buff routine can be duplicated by Miracle from the Archivist side.

To cheese it out even further, cram in 3 levels of cleric and the Initiate of Mystra and Arcane Mastery feats. Start off with an Antimagic Field with caster level 1 lower than your normal, then take 10 on all the Initiate of Mystra checks with Arcane Mastery for the buffs. Depending on the DM, you may need to use a combination of size increasing spells (Miracle for Giant Size is available if necessary) and careful choice of the point of origin for AMF's emanation to make it possible for your clones to use Cooperative Metamagic and Metamagic Effect on your buffs, and the DM might rule that no such combination both allows using those abilities on the spells and counts as them being inside the AMF when cast so that Initiative of Mystra can come into play. A fallback option is to simply use Extraordinary Spell Aim instead (no need for cleric levels this time, though a dip for Pride and some other domain might be nice), but that significantly reduces the AMF's protection.

Anyway, even without AMF shenanigans, that buff list will transform virtually anyone into an unstoppable killing machine. Add two Martial Study feats or a level of Warblade for Iron Heart Surge, and even an enemy AMF won't hold for long.

Chronos
2008-08-27, 11:02 PM
No, I'm just thinking of Forcecage or something.Being inside a Forcecage helps one's invulnerability, not hinders it. I'll just wait it out. Of course, it does seriously restrict one's offensive capabilities, but that's not the goal of this contest.

As for your "steal something and run away" strategy, I suspect that'll work for any of the builds people submit. Not much to be done about that.

Rei_Jin
2008-08-27, 11:07 PM
Hhmm... I was working on a much more straightforward build. It's actually viable, doesn't require a funky set of templates or races, and doesn't use twinkery.

Race: Human
Class List: Knight 20//Monk2/Hexblade8/Occult Slayer5/Survivor5

Base Saves
Fort: 9
Refl: 9
Will: 12

BAB: +20

HD: d12

Feats:
1: Combat Reflexes
1(Human Bonus): Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Spiked Chain
1(Monk Bonus): Improved Grapple
2(Monk Bonus): Deflect Arrows
3: Combat Expertise
5(Knight Bonus): Great Fortitude
6: Improved Trip
7(Hexblade Bonus): Spell Penetration
9: Stand Still
10(Knight Bonus): Iron Will
12: Ascetic Mage
15: Hold the Line
15(Knight Bonus): Endurance
18: Knock-Down

Skills: Ride(23), Spot(23), Listen(23), Climb(5), Jump(5), Tumble(5), Swim(5)

Items: Tome of Charisma+5, Tome of Dexterity+5, Belt of Magnificence +6, other items to taste

Final Stats:
STR: 15 (21)
DEX: 20 (26)
CON: 10 (16)
INT: 14 (20)
WIS: 10 (16)
CHA: 20 (26)


Note that I don't expect this thing to be as difficult to take down as some of the other builds that are floating around, but it is viable, and could be built in a standard Gestalt game without Twinking.

JeminiZero
2008-08-28, 03:53 AM
I'm kinda new to building Gestalt (and sticking so many templates onto one critter), so if I made a mistake please point it out. I think this is a relatively straight forward Ikea Tarrasque:

Golden Saint of Mystra
Or what you get when applying Half Gold-Dragon and Saint template (along with many others) to a Troll cleric of Mystra.

Alignment LG

Progression
01 Troll LA 1 / Troll HD 1: Feat: Extend Spell, Flaw: Poor Reflexes, Flaw Feat: Multiattack
02 Troll LA 2 / Troll HD 2:
03 Troll LA 3 / Troll HD 3: Feat: Persist Spell
04 Troll LA 4 / Troll HD 4:
05 Troll LA 5 / Troll HD 5:
06 Fetch LA 1 / Troll HD 6: Feat: Practiced Spellcaster (Cleric)
07 Fetch LA 2 / Wizard 1:
08 Fetch LA 3 / Cleric 1:
09 Fetch LA 4 / Cleric 2: Feat: Alternate Spell Source (needed to qualify for Geomancer)
10 Fetch LA 5 / Cleric 3:
11 Half GoldDragon LA 1 / Geomancer 1:
12 Half GoldDragon LA 2 / Geomancer 2: Feat: Initiate of Mystra
13 Half GoldDragon LA 3 / Geomancer 3:
14 Saint LA 1 / Geomancer 4:
15 Saint LA 2 / Geomancer 5: Feat: DMM: Persist Spell
16 Woodling LA 1 / Geomancer 6:
17 Woodling LA 2 / Geomancer 7:
18 Woodling LA 3 / Geomancer 8: Feat: Extra Turning
19 Phrenic LA 1 / Geomancer 9:
20 Phrenic LA 2 / Geomancer 10:


Geomancer Drift Abilities
Stage 1 (Geomancer 1 & 2):
(Purely fluff and unimportant)

Stage 2 (Geomancer 3 & 4):
-You sprout leaves and become photosynthetic. (You can subsist on 1 hour/day of sunlight in lieu of food, though you still require the same amount of water as before.)
-You can constrict like a snake. (You deal 1d3 points of damage with a successful grapple check against a creature of your size category or smaller.)

Stage 3 (Geomancer 5 & 6):
-You sprout fish gills. (You can breath both water and air.)
-Your toes grow lionlike claws. (You can make two rake attacks for 1d4 points of damage each if you gain a hold on your target.)

Stage 4 (Geomancer 7 & 8):
-You gain a boar's ferocity. (You can continue to fight without penalty even while disabled or dying.)
-You can grab like a bear. (You gain the improved grab ability as described on page 310 of the Monster Manual.)

Stage 5 (Geomancer 9 & 10):
-Your sense become as sharp as a bat's. You gain blind-sense out to 30 feet as described on page 306 of the Monser Manual.
-You grow a unicorn horn. (You gain +4 bonus on Fortitude saves against poison and a gore attack for 1d8 points of damage.)


Attributes

Attribute Modifiers
Str +12 Troll +8 Half Dragon = Total +20
Dex +4 Troll = Total +4
Con +12 Troll +2 Saint +2 Half Dragon = Total +16
Int -4 Troll +2 Phrenic +2 Half Dragon = Total +0
Wis -2 Troll +2 Phrenic +2 Saint = Total +2
Cha -4 Troll +4 Phrenic +4 Saint +2 Half Dragon = Total +6

AC Modifiers
-16 Natural Armor Bonus (5 Troll + 4 Half Dragon + 7 woodling)
-Saint Wis Insight bonus to AC (+7 if you assume +6 Wis Gear, +4 without)
Giving a total +20 (+23 with Wis boost gear +6) bonus to AC on top of what normal gear can net you (e.g. amulets of Barkskin, rings of deflection etc)

28 Point Buy
6 Str 14 +20 = 34
0 Dex 8 +4 = 12
6 Con 14 +16 = 30
6 Int 14
4 Wis 12 +2 = 14 +5 level up = 19
6 Cha 14 +6 = 20


Mechanics:
Troll: Gives Regeneration (Only Fire and Acid are lethal, you gain Fire and Acid immunity from other sources)
Saint: Immune to Acid, Cold, Electricity, & Petrifaction, Fast Healing = HD/2
Half Gold-Dragon: Immune to Fire, Paralysis, Sleep
Fetch: Immune to energy drains, ability damage, ability drain, and the special attacks of Ghosts.
Woodling: Immunity to Poison, Magical Sleep, Paralysis, Polymorph, Stunning, & Mind-Affecting spells & spell-like abilities. Does not take extra damage from Critical Hits.
Phrenic: PR equal HD + 10 (30 at ECL 20)
Geomancer: Immunity to Drowning (via Water Breath), HP falling below 0 (via Ferocity), slightly cheesy grapple attack (see below)

Half-Dragon Troll + Geomancer Attack Combo
(at least I think it works this way, could be wrong though)
Full Round Natural Attacks: Bite, Claw, Claw, Gore (Multiattack feat means secondary attack penalty is only -2)
-If both Claw hits, you get a Troll Rend as well
-If Either Claw hits, you can use improved grab
-If Improved Grab hits, you get 2 rakes + Constrict

All these are Ex abilities which function even in an antimagic field. So if an AMF is somehow advantageous to itself, it can cast it on itself and then e.g. grapple the lich to death. Beyond that it has spells of level 13 cleric (level 7) and caster level of 17, along with 2 DMM persists per day (or more if you use alignment shift cheese) and initiate of Mystra permitting casting in an AMF. So it can use DMM persisted Cleric spells to cover notable weaknesses (see below)


Items:
-Cha +4 Gear (for extra turning attempts)
-Wis +6 Gear (useful but not necessary, boost the Saint Wis insight AC bonus)
-Any other standard AC gear you might like (e.g. amulets of Barkskin, rings of deflection etc)


Notable Flaws:
-Multiclass penalty (Wizard 1 / Cleric 3 / 10 Geomancer)
-Can't use Nightsticks to power DMM. Unfortunate side effect of being LG as an Initiate of Mystra. It does not employ the alignment shifting cheese of the Twice betrayer of Shar, but if that is permitted, than Nightstick away.
-It is not normally immune to instant death effects, or disease. However, considering all its other immunities (particularly ability damage and drain), most disease will have no effect on it. That still leaves instant Death effects, but it can cover that via DMM persisted Cleric Death Ward or AMF. Edit: Or using gear like the Soulfire Armor mentioned below.
-Depending on your intepretation, certain 'fire' effects which can bypass fire immunity can damage it. E.g. Divine fire, Hellfire-Locks. Even then, it still has high HP from high Con bonus and Saint Fast Healing, and can do stuff like cast DMM persist Delay Death, so it won't die even from lethal HP loss (and it won't get knocked out either as Geomancer provides Ferocity as an Ex ability).-Subject to Turn Undead as a Fetch. Fetches can be stunned by turn undead, but this has immune to stunning via Woodling immunities. So the worst that turning can do is inflict "–4 penalty on attacks, saves, skill checks, & ability checks until the ‘turner’ attacks the Fetch, up to 10 rounds".


Break Points:
With all the Templates it unfortunately only starts off at level 20. Unless you use some kind of custom savage species progression, where you gradually gain template abilities as you level up. In which case ECL 15 (Troll + Half Dragon + Saint + Fetch) gives it most of its important immunities, preventing death from HP or ability score damage/drain.


Other Notes:
-With base Charisma of 20, and Extra Turning, gives it 12 turn attempts. A simple +4 Cha item improves this to 14 turn attempts, letting it DMM persist 2 spells per day (Deathward, Delay Death, Divine Power, AMF etc).
-Also has Woodling SLAs, and Phrenic PLAs
-Reasonably powerful fighter with high base strength + cleric buffs + many natural attacks
-Fetch gives Fly 30’, with Perfect maneuverability. Half Dragon gives Flight 2x base land speed (60' in this case) with average maneuverability. Not sure how these would stack together.
-6 levels of Troll HD (base troll HD is d8, half-dragon improves this to d10)

dspeyer
2008-08-30, 06:16 PM
Macavity
Ay, there's the wonder of the thing! Macavity's not there!
--T.S. Elliot
Classes: psion (nomad) 20 // ranger (wild shape variant) 5 / Master of Many Forms 10 / monk 3 / warmind 2
Abilities: only int and con matter
Important powers: teleport, triggered teleport, ethereal jaunt, time regression, expansion/compression (warmind)

Before you can hurt someone, you need to find and recognize him. Macavity can teleport literally dozens of times a day, including on your turn if you put him in too much danger, and descriptions of him range from a ginger cat to a strangely young-looking gargantuan gold dragon. All the descriptions are true, and none are useful. His favorite form is a Will-o-Wisp with its light turned off (as a MoMF, he gains its Ex abilities, including magic immunity).

One of his favorite tricks is to wild shape into something at one extreme of the size spectrum (a tiny viper or a gargantuan monstrous centipede) and then use compression or expansion to go even further. Unlike enlarge/reduce person, these powers don't care about creature type, and the 7pp cost to go two categories is nothing for a high-level, high-int psion.

If he does get attacked, he has all good saves and the AC of whatever form he's in plus his int (via carmendine monk). He also gets the bonuses from all his wild equipment. If wild equipment is two expensive, he can take Vow of Poverty instead, which provides lots of defensive bonuses regardless of form. He should have plenty of hit points from d8s and d10s with high con, and his skills (starting 6+int, then 4+int with high int) let him easily max out stealth and perception.

Finally, if everything goes wrong, he can turn back time one round and try again.

shadow_archmagi
2008-08-30, 06:22 PM
As long as you've got the Psion right there, why not use the Save Game trick posted... somewhere. It involves casting the "Revert one turn back" spell on your crystal, and then catapulting it forward in time.

If you die in the next five hours, your psicrystal says "Gee. The master died. Better revert time."

sonofzeal
2008-08-30, 08:31 PM
There's ways to do this with items (which can be stolen, sundered, or dispelled), with racial powers (which can be rather cheesy), or via spells (which can be counterspelled/dispelled), so here's my slightly silly idea.

LE Desert Dwarven Monk20//Crusader20
Flaw: (edit) NONE

Ability Points: Dex up to 16, everything relatively even to guard against ability damage.

Feats: "Vile Spell Resistance"; "Extra Granted Maneuver"; "Martial Stance: Immortal Fortitude"; "Combat Focus"; "Combat Stability"; "Combat Vigor"; "Combat Expertise"


Notes
AC
- Wears Soulfire mithral fullplate and tower shield in spite of Monkness for AC-pumping
- Uses "defending shield spikes" and "defending armor spikes" for even more AC
- Still has decent AC outside of armor due to Monk 20.
- Can use Combat Expertise for +20 dodge bonus, providing excellent normal AC and solid Touch/Flatfooted AC.
Result: Shouldn't be taking hits from much of anything that isn't using massive ridiculous cheese.

Saves
- Has max save progression, plus nice bonuses to Will from Crusader
- Can reroll failed saves 1/day
- Has bonuses on saves vs spells (ie most saves) from Dwarf
- Has "Mettle" from Crusader (Fort and Will) and "Improved Evasion" (when not wearing armor) from Monk
Result: Should never be failing saves that don't have totally ludicrous DC-pumping cheese, and can bypass all secondary effects on any save.

Other Defences
- has SR 32 naturally, or SR 37 with the vest from DMG2
- Gets massive free healing from Crusader, including "Heal".
- Virtually immune to hp damage due to Immortal Fortitude + Steely Resolve 30
- Immune to aging, poison, disease, most falls, and "humanoid only" spells
- Immune to "death spells", death effects, energy drain, and negative energy effects
- Gets Fast Healing 4 from Combat Vigor
- Gets huge bonuses against grapple/trip/bullrush/etc from Combat Stability + Dwarfishness.
- Gets "Dimension Door" for escaping from Forcecage+Cloudkill
- Gets inherant DR (10/magic), plus up to DR 20/adamantine from Crusader maneuvers
- Gets Darkvision
- Totally normal appearance, could easily avoid notice in any community where Desert Dwarves are around.
- Doesn't depend on gear or item slots for anything in particular (except that sweet vest, and Soulfire), so go nuts grabbing stuff to fill in the blanks!
Result: Should be nigh-impossible to kill via mundane means, practically immune to most magic, and actually immune to a bunch of the nastier things out there. Can recover rapidly from just about anything.

Weaknesses
- No-save, no-SR Ability Damage. o_0
- Only one use of Dimension Door per day (unless more through items).
- Really cheesed-up casters can probably beat the SR.
- Death-by-awesome might still be a danger.

Playability
- DOUBLY EPIC READY
- Can "switch modes" by changing armor to deal with different situations.
- Good battlefield control due to Crusader, much harder to take out due to Monk
- Poor damage output (but that's what teammates are for)
- Good healing potential ("Heal" every few rounds, indefinitelly? Heck yes!)
- Virtually no cheese.
- Recognizable archetype with unusual mechanical underpinnings.
- Playable from lvl1, with a spike at 13 when the SR kicks in.

Comments
I have to admit, I'm banking on playability here. The foundations of building Ikea Terrasques and such are fairly well-understood on CharOp, but I think this manages to keep pace in survivability without a build loadout that'd cause most DMs to flee in terror. It also takes one of the least-popular classes ever, and uses it in moderately interesting ways by not feeling restricted to trying to make it work without armor. I believe the new (recently edited) version should score well for Functionality, have no major Weaknesses (except to stuff that'd also destroy most of its competition in this category too), be fully playable at any level at all, makes creative use of the Monk rules, and should get by without a single Cheese Point.

Chronos
2008-08-30, 10:47 PM
Macavity can teleport literally dozens of times a day, including on your turn if you put him in too much danger, and descriptions of him range from a ginger cat to a strangely young-looking gargantuan gold dragon.I see what you did there.

I made a few changes to my entry... I replaced the Half-Dragon template with Fire-Souled and Phrenic. That costs me 2 points of Con, but nets me 2 points of Wis: Both get added twice to AC, so it only means a few HP. It also gets me spell resistance-- Not too hard to bypass, but still one more thing to get through to hurt him. I also put in a Belt of Magnificence in the items, since I'm getting benefits from three different ability scores, two of which would normally occupy the same item slot anyway, and the SR from Phrenic opened up a possibility for my last feat. That just leaves one level to fill.

And while I do like stealth, I also liked the idea someone posted on the first page of being able to just stand there and laugh at the folks trying to hurt me.

Grynning
2008-08-31, 01:14 AM
(any way to get immunity to death effects here?)


There's an armor enhancement in BoED that gives you immunity to death effects and negative levels, can't recall the name, but I remember that it's a +4 armor quality.

sonofzeal
2008-08-31, 07:59 AM
There's an armor enhancement in BoED that gives you immunity to death effects and negative levels, can't recall the name, but I remember that it's a +4 armor quality.
Ooo, Soulfire armor, and it's not good-exclusive! I'll add that!

dspeyer
2008-09-01, 10:20 PM
The time has come, as I indicated at the beginning of the thread. Submissions are closed, voting is open.

The categories:

Overall -- the character you would have the hardest time defeating
Huh? -- the build you really didn't expect
Party animal -- the one you want in your next campaign
Brie -- the one that shouldn't be allowed


The contestants:

Indomitable Spirit -- "I shed my body, for it was weak, and my spirit unstoppable."
The Living Ghost (seriously stretching the no-undead rule)
Sith -- The Dark Side of Force
Horgoth the Healthy
Knight 20//Monk2/Hexblade8/Occult Slayer5/Survivor5 -- "no twinkery" (no name either)
Golden Saint of Mystra (troll immune to acid and fire)
Macavity -- "Ay, there's the wonder of the thing! Macavity's not there!"
LE Desert Dwarven Monk20//Crusader20 ("banking on playability")


Happy voting!

sonofzeal
2008-09-02, 11:00 PM
Where do we vote?

Talic
2008-09-02, 11:34 PM
To Answer that, I cast my vote for:

Indomitable Spirit.

Honorable mention to horgath the healthy, although I can think of a couple ways to stop him without relying on SR, saving throws, or attack rolls... Just massive damage.

Chronos
2008-09-02, 11:54 PM
Overall: Indomitable Spirit. OK, so it's basically a one-trick pony, but it's a pretty nice trick.

Huh? Golden Saint of Mystra. When your race takes up one full side of your class progression, you're definitely doing something weird.

Party Animal: Macavity. I like playing subtle characters, so I'd probably like playing along one. And the literary reference doesn't hurt, either.

Brie: The Living Ghost. "No undead" isn't exactly consistent with "Undead for almost entire progression".



Honorable mention to horgath the healthy, although I can think of a couple ways to stop him without relying on SR, saving throws, or attack rolls... Just massive damage.OK, I'm curious... How are you planning on delivering that damage? The only things I can think of that don't need an attack roll or save run into one of his immunities. You could use something like an übercharger and hope for a 20, but that's unlikely. What am I missing?

sonofzeal
2008-09-03, 10:37 AM
OK, I'm curious... How are you planning on delivering that damage? The only things I can think of that don't need an attack roll or save run into one of his immunities. You could use something like an übercharger and hope for a 20, but that's unlikely. What am I missing?
Possibly through an epically massive volley of adamantine arrows, like at the end of Hero? That would work on most characters, really, but my Monk//Crusader would actually be pretty resiliant to that - all the arrows would need to be at least magic (and possibly adamantine as well), the two extra base points of DR guard against Composite, he can deflect at least 1/round (more, if I'd remembered to give him Buffeting Fist, but c'est la vie) and he can still use Steely Resolve + Immortal Fortitude + Strike of Righteous Vitality (+ fast healing 4 if necessary) to manage.


As to voting....

Overall - Sith. Indomitable Spirit is clever, but has too many special vulnerabilities that a prepared enemy could aim for. Being especially worried about Soulknives is rather humerous, but if an entire base class can pretty much negate all your defences, you've got problems.

Huh? - Macavity. It's a counterintuitive combination given the theme, and seems to focus much more on the stealth aspect which few people went for. Not bad, but a bit of an odd one out IMO.

Party Animal - ...am I allowed to vote for my guy here? If not, Macavity; he's relatively uncheese'd, and effective in a variety of ways.

Brie - Golden Saint of Mystra. I really can't picture that combination ever existing in any rational world, and I can't imagine a DM in a rational campaign allowing even half of those templates on the same creature.

JeminiZero
2008-09-03, 07:55 PM
Brie - Golden Saint of Mystra. I really can't picture that combination ever existing in any rational world


Sure it can. It starts off with a male Gold Dragon who wants to have children, but for whatever reason does not. So he dies with his greatest wish unfulfilled, which cause him to come back as a ghost.

Lo and behold, a female troll comes along, so the ghostly Gold Dragon mates with her. And they produce a child: A Troll that is half Gold Dragon, and also half-ghost (fetch). By virtue of his unusual parentage, and partly because of luck, the child is also smarter than the average troll, with some minor psychic powers to show for it (phrenic).

Anyway, the Child grows up, dabbling in wizardry for a while, before committing himself to become a cleric of Mystra. He settles down as the protector of a magical forest, but occasionally goes out whenever he hears the cry of the weak (and feels the thirst for XP).

Because of his extremely long natural life (half-gold dragon and fetch both benefit from slowed aging), extended contact with the magical forest somehow changes him, making him become one with nature (woodling and geomancer). Eventually, for all his courageous deeds, Mystra awards him sainthood. And thus was born the Golden Saint of Mystra.