3.5 Thievery campaign, thoughts on classes?

[Breaw]

The group I tend to play with is thinking about starting up a thievery campaign when our current campaign winds down. I've been putting some thought into it and have been trying to think of classes that would excel at this sort of thing. For reference, we will likely only run such a campaign if we have 3 PCs. 4 would be too many, 2 and you are starting to lose the social aspect of the game. I'll start with a brief rundown of what I've been thinking about so far, and then you guys can let me know what you think so far and what I'm missing.

1) It seems to me that the sneaky (aka rogue) skill list can be divided up into 3 groups. Spy (or front-man), Thief & Acrobat. I imagine we'll probably all try to have our own niche to avoid the very clear chance of overshadowing others.

Spy: Disguise, Bluff, Diplomacy, Gather information, Sense Motives, Forgery, Speak languages.

Thief: Hide, Move Silently, Listen, Sleight of Hand, Search, Disable Device, Open Lock

Acrobat: Climb, Jump, Tumble, Move Silently, Escape Artist, Balance, Spot

These I think do a pretty good job of setting a feel for different personas of thievery: confidence man, pick pocket, cat burgler.

Of course none of these lists are actually complete, which should allow for some good party collaboration.

Anyway, my next goal was to look at some different classes that would do a good job filling these roles. Clearly a rogue could fill them all, but for a bit more flavor I think different classes are in order.

Rogue: Could do any and all. Was thinking perhaps that they would fill the Thief role.

Beguiler: Excellent spy

Ranger (modified): (perhaps?) I was thinking giving a diminuitive animal companion at level one and give it tumble and escape artist, then make track a bit more in city friendly and you would have an excellent acrobat.


What classes out there do you guys enjoy playing as sneaky types? What roles do they fill? Are there roles that I have ignored or forgotten? All thoughts and comments are welcome.

[Frosty]

You need a Gray Elf Beguiler (face?), a Changeling Factotum (spy?), and a Halfling Rogue (Sneak/Thief?)

[SoD]

Don't know that much about beguiler, but it would be good, as would the rogue. Two other classes: bard and factotum. Potentially the ninja and the spelltheif as well. With the ranger, check out the urban ranger variant from Unearthed Arcana. Also a Cleric of Olimdamarra (fluff-wise, at least. Best to make it a cloistered cleric [Unearthed Arcana] for the extra skill points).

Pestige Classes: Assassin, Temple Raider of Olimdamarra, Theif-Acrobat, Arcane Trickster, Divine Trickster (where'd I see that one?), depending on style. There are others as well (I'm working from memory at the moment, and am thinking fluff-wise, some of these aren't uber-tough, but you wouldn't really want uber tough here.

Track: There's a feat, Urban Tracking, where instead of survival, you use gather information checks to track someone down, in a city or town.

[ghost_warlock]

If you're open to homebrew, both my brigand and shadowmage make fairly good thieves. (see signature.)

Sounds like it'd be a fun campaign - are you planning on using skill tricks from Complete Scoundrel?

[Tempest Fennac]

I know this would cross over into other areas, but a Warlock with maxed out Bluff and UMD as well as Walk Unseen, Charm and Beguilling Influence could make a good spy/"magic-user".

[ZekeArgo]

I'd definatly go for a Grey Elf (possibly dragonborn) Beguiler, Whisper Gnome Swordsage, Strongheart Halfling Rogue, and a Changling Factotum for a thievery, urban based adventure.

[Devils_Advocate]

Ranger (modified): (perhaps?) I was thinking giving a diminuitive animal companion at level one and give it tumble and escape artist, then make track a bit more in city friendly and you would have an excellent acrobat.
You might consider the Scout class from Complete Adventurer. Scouts are basically thiefier Rangers, and big on the whole mobility thing.

City-friendly tracking (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#urbanTracking)

[Danin]

Just remember two things: Amongst all those roles, you don't have a brute to deal with the less... tactful situations. Also, if you use the face too much they quickly become the star of the show. While others are sneaking around, breaking in, this one is separated and tends to get too little attention or too much. Just coming from a bit of past experience.

Cheers and happy thieving!

[AslanCross]

I know this would cross over into other areas, but a Warlock with maxed out Bluff and UMD as well as Walk Unseen, Charm and Beguilling Influence could make a good spy/"magic-user".

I second the Warlock.

Beguiler, Factotum, Rogue, Warlock. Sounds like an excellent party.

Btw, you might want to check out the Pathfinder version of the Rogue. It expands the Rogue's capabilities slightly so that taking more levels in it is more attractive.

[Breaw]

Just remember two things: Amongst all those roles, you don't have a brute to deal with the less... tactful situations. Also, if you use the face too much they quickly become the star of the show. While others are sneaking around, breaking in, this one is separated and tends to get too little attention or too much. Just coming from a bit of past experience.

Cheers and happy thieving!

I can see how this would definitely come about quite easily, however I have a great deal of faith in the DM that would be running this. If anyone can balance it, he can.

As far as the brute thing, seems to me that the acrobat is pretty well suited for... er... less "elegant" solutions to problems. Also if the acrobat is some sort of dual wielding urban ranger, all of a sudden the thief rogue isn't such a shlub either. ;)

[ZekeArgo]

Just remember two things: Amongst all those roles, you don't have a brute to deal with the less... tactful situations. Also, if you use the face too much they quickly become the star of the show. While others are sneaking around, breaking in, this one is separated and tends to get too little attention or too much. Just coming from a bit of past experience.

Cheers and happy thieving!

Mine does! That Whisper Gnome swordsage, preferably focusing on Setting Sun and using Giant Killing Stance mostly, will throw around and avoid the attacks of Hulking Fighter Types like nobodies business.

[Jalor]

I would go with a Fighter/Rogue, a Beguiler, a Warlock, and a Scout. The ratio of Fighter to Rogue levels should be about 1/2 to ensure the best of sneak attack damage while still having the Fighter levels mean something.

[Dhavaer]

The Hexblade is a Charisma-based, full BAB class which could strongarm a target the spy can't con, and could have enough Charisma to not screw the group over should someone talk to them.

[Meat Shield]

I think that a Shadow Hand focused swordsage would also be able to fit in quite nicely in this party

[Telonius]

Rogue/Swashbuckler with Daring Outlaw is a good combination if you want your Rogue to have a little more muscle. The tradeoff is fewer skills.

[xPANCAKEx]

theres room in the party for an arcane spell caster and/or healer. Too many useful spells to miss out on that work just great when trying to steal stuff

[Arbitrarity]

Beguiler is illusion/enchantment/face, factotum for healing/magic/combat support, swordsage is combat support, acrobatics, and later can be exceptionally stealthy and break into a variety of things (I go incoporeal as a swift action, and run through the wall)

[InkEyes]

You might consider the Scout class from Complete Adventurer. Scouts are basically thiefier Rangers, and big on the whole mobility thing.

City-friendly tracking (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#urbanTracking)

I suggest taking a one-level dip in scout, then the rest in ranger and take the feat "Swift Hunter (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Swift_Hunter,all)" from Complete Scoundrel. All the best bits of the scout mixed in with the abilities of a ranger.

Also, there are several urban class features here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070228a) that might help a ranger in a city environment.

[Person_Man]

My ideas party for this situation would be Beguiler, Warlock, Dragonfire Adept, and Spellthief. Together, you'd pretty much be able to handle any job.

[Stormageddon]

Arcane Trickster!

[Chronos]

I suggest taking a one-level dip in scout, then the rest in ranger and take the feat "Swift Hunter" from Complete Scoundrel.A one-level dip in scout isn't enough to qualify for Swift Hunter. At first level, your skirmish only gives you bonus damage, not an AC bonus. IIRC, you need 3 levels.

As for urban rangers, there are a lot of alternate class features available from the Cityscape web enhancement (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070228a). That covers both your idea of making the companion a smaller critter and making Track more city-friendly, as well as a few other interesting options.

[Hzurr]

I actually ran a PbP game here on the forum a couple of years back, where all the PCs were members of a Thieves' Guild. It. Was. Awesome. I ran it with 6 PCs, which is a bit more than I usually recommend, but here was the breakdown:
Rogue (Con-man type)
Rogue (Alchemist/Poison Master, with some home-brew rules)
Rogue/Cleric/Divine Trickster (Yay Olidemarra!)
Ninja
Sorcerer
Rogue/Barbarian

We had a pretty diverse group, and every member focused on a different aspect of thievery. The Sorcerer focused on spells like invisibility, silence, spiderwalk, etc.; The Alchemist-Rogue had paralizing poisons, knock-out poisons, special acids, etc.; And the other classes were played about how you'd expect. It party did exceptionally well, they made some great plans and ended up breaking into this nobleman's manor unseen (they had some guys climbing over the wall, some going inside pretending to be guests at a party, some guys posing as guards for the party goers...it was awesome.) Later, they got screwed over by the wizards guild, and came up with a big elaborate plan to sneak into the guild-house and steal the wizard's spell books and hold them ransom.

In addition to the different thief types you mentioned, I would (as others have suggested) add in the "Thug/Strong-Arm" type. Fighter-Rogues can be good at this (especially if they have the "Dread Commando" PrC from Heroes of Battle *drools* or normal rogues if you stat them correctly.

But yeah, I think the point I initially intended to make was that you can have more than 3 with no problems.

[snoopy13a]

I can see how this would definitely come about quite easily, however I have a great deal of faith in the DM that would be running this. If anyone can balance it, he can.

As far as the brute thing, seems to me that the acrobat is pretty well suited for... er... less "elegant" solutions to problems. Also if the acrobat is some sort of dual wielding urban ranger, all of a sudden the thief rogue isn't such a shlub either. ;)

Still, a brute has many uses for an underworld campaign:

1) If you get into loansharking or bookkeeping, the brute is the guy who breaks the fingers of people who don't pay

2) If you're having a sit-down with other thieves, the brute is the guy who stands there and looks mean

3) If it gets ugly, he's a nice guy to have around

4) Suppose you're stealing something heavy, it would be great to have some brute to carry it out :smallsmile:

[Telonius]

Also, for a sneaky mission, you might consider taking a page from a classic team-up...

Human Swashbuckler
Half-Giant Fighter (maybe one level of Monk)
Human Rogue/Dread Pirate

[Person_Man]

Also, for a sneaky mission, you might consider taking a page from a classic team-up...

Human Swashbuckler
Half-Giant Fighter (maybe one level of Monk)
Human Rogue/Dread Pirate

This team needs a Ninja. No one can stand against the united forces of pirates and ninja working together.

[hotel_papa]

The Hexblade is a Charisma-based, full BAB class which could strongarm a target the spy can't con, and could have enough Charisma to not screw the group over should someone talk to them.

Seconded. Bluff, Diplomacy and Intimidate are all class skills. Also, the hexblade's curse synergizes well with skill-based characters, especially for opposed skill checks. The dark companion (PHBII) is useful to lower save vs. poison, AC vs. sneak attack and "stacks" with the +2 flanking bonus. (Not to mention making an excellent mascot for a team of rogues) Also, many of the hexblade's spells (invisibility, charm person) are especially rogue-y. Suggest a one to three level dip in human paragon for UMD as a class skill and a +2 bonus to Cha.

HP

[Telonius]

This team needs a Ninja. No one can stand against the united forces of pirates and ninja working together.

I think the Sicilian had a level or two of Ninja, but that ended rather badly.

[Hunter Noventa]

I second the spellthief, they bring in much needed magical support, and have access to one of the most powerful school in the game, transmutation.

[Dr Bwaa]

I second (though I haven't read all the replies) that you need a brute of some kind. Not everything can be resolved through outright thievery, or needs to be--intimidation and coersion are great strategies, too. There's a reaosn protection rackets exist: they're very profitable.

[arguskos]

I'll toss in votes for Spellthief, Beguiler, Factorum, and some sort of bruiser, like a Thug variant Rogue or something (from Unearthed Arcana, I believe).

Just my 2cp.

-argus

[Ralfarius]

Thug variant Rogue or something (from Unearthed Arcana, I believe).
I'm throwing my vote for the thug/brute/strongarm, as I've been pre-empted, like, four or five times over. I mean you've got manipulative guy, sneaky/stealy guy, and nimble guy. Flavour-wise, I think tough guy would round out a group so well, in terms of roleplaying. He doesn't tightrope walk between buildings or climb down chimneys, he can't schmooze for info or seduce all the ladies, and he can't unlock the combination safe with nothing but a stethoscope. What he can do, however, is teach you how similar to a mouthful of pennies your own knocked-in teeth taste. He gets to be the angry guy with the intimidate skill and the penchant for getting a little too punch-happy with your victims. It's the perfect foil to the level-headed/suave/quiet other members of the group.

[Curmudgeon]

For really sneaky guy you'll want a one-level dip into Shadowdancer, though that's very expensive, feat-wise. Buy Mobility as an armor special ability instead of the feat. If you can also figure out a use for Spring Attack that will help average down the cost of the combination, as you will have already established all the prerequisites for Spring Attack with the one-level dip into the PrC.

[Dr Bwaa]

I'm throwing my vote for the thug/brute/strongarm, as I've been pre-empted, like, four or five times over. I mean you've got manipulative guy, sneaky/stealy guy, and nimble guy. Flavour-wise, I think tough guy would round out a group so well, in terms of roleplaying. He doesn't tightrope walk between buildings or climb down chimneys, he can't schmooze for info or seduce all the ladies, and he can't unlock the combination safe with nothing but a stethoscope. What he can do, however, is teach you how similar to a mouthful of pennies your own knocked-in teeth taste. He gets to be the angry guy with the intimidate skill and the penchant for getting a little too punch-happy with your victims. It's the perfect foil to the level-headed/suave/quiet other members of the group.

Well said. Other advice for this character; there's a feat somewhere that lets you replace CHA with STR for intimidate and a couple of other skill checks. This is worthwhile (alternately, just max intimidate and get a lot of DM love for using tactics and props to boost your intimidate score. This is how my 5-CHA dwarven fighter (uses a bat'leth :smallbiggrin:) used intimidate to single-handedly rout an entire army of kobolds/goblins*).

*It was Goblins, but... We got teleported to someplace in Undermountain, and when we looked around, we realized that we were in a huge cave. On one side was an entire army of gobbos, and on the other, kobolds, both complete with seige weaponry and all. We were something like level 12 or 13, and my dwarf (whose armor is a magical "hide armor" that he made himself out of the flesh of his enemies: adds like +5 to intimidate, along with all his other crap to that skill) had a human clan-brother, ALSO with maxed-out intimidate. One of us faced one way, and one of us faced the other, roared (Intimidate check very close to 50, my friend's was like 35), and charged. Whatever side I was charging just turned tail and fled, though I still got my share of horrific Gobbo butchery. I definitely ate at least one head, and since I was wearing a helmet inspired by this comic (http://ctrlaltdel-online.com/comic.php?d=20070713), I impaled one up there, who stayed alive until he bled out near the end of the "battle." In the meantime, the others were over killing Kobolds. My clan-brother took a direct hit from a flaming catapult, but he was still alive enough to kill everyone and get healing at the end. It was a great moment.