PDA

View Full Version : Favored Soul - what am I missing?



Thurbane
2008-08-26, 07:10 AM
OK, I don't get it.

I want to like the Favored Soul class, but it just seems too lose to much compared to the Cleric. Loss of turning, domains and heavy armor just doesn't seem worth spontaneous casting plus the few weak extras the class gets.

Can anyone sell me on this class?

Fenix_of_Doom
2008-08-26, 07:11 AM
I'll sell it you, the cleric is overpowered, the favourite soul is weaker thus better balanced. There you go.

Thurbane
2008-08-26, 07:12 AM
I'll sell it you, the cleric is overpowered, the favourite soul is weaker thus better balanced. There you go.
Well, OK, I suppose that is one point of view.

Rad
2008-08-26, 07:21 AM
It is weaker; on the other hand it requires much less bookkeeping than a prepared caster (particularly true compared to a cleric with their huge spell selection).
This might look as not enough, however remember:

When a player begins, they think the most valuable thing is spell slots
When they get a bit smarter, they think that the most valuable thing is actions
When they really understand it all, they realize that the most valuable thing is real-life time

Never having to revise your spell selection during play can lead to more efficient gaming sessions, which means that the story will go faster and you'll manage to accomplish more with your characters. If your characters are powerful the DM will just make the enemies stronger, but if they are faster to use you'll actually get more things done. If they are slightly less powerful it doesn't really matter since the monsters are going to be just strong enough whatever you do.

Did I manage to sell it to you? Then go look at the warlock now.

Tempest Fennac
2008-08-26, 07:29 AM
One problem with FSs which can't really be countered without scrolls is the fact that a lot of Cleric spells aren't designed to be used everyday, but they can be lifesavers (eg: Restoration and Remove Blindness/Deafness). To be fair, this probably isn;t that much of a problem unless your DM likes throwing perminant negative status effects at you or you're in a long dungeon or in the middle of no where (I suppose you could allow FSs to remove some conditions without a spell if that could be an issue). Also, are Clerics overpowered if you don't insist on using DMM cheese?

BobVosh
2008-08-26, 07:52 AM
Yes, clerics are probably the most powerful base class, however they scale to the point of how you build them.

Favored soul is not the way to fix that.

Rad
2008-08-26, 07:53 AM
One problem with FSs which can't really be countered without scrolls is the fact that a lot of Cleric spells aren't designed to be used everyday, but they can be lifesavers (eg: Restoration and Remove Blindness/Deafness). To be fair, this probably isn't that much of a problem unless your DM likes throwing permanent negative status effects at you or you're in a long dungeon or in the middle of no where (I suppose you could allow FSs to remove some conditions without a spell if that could be an issue). Also, are Clerics overpowered if you don't insist on using DMM cheese?

Clerics carry a lot of those scrolls around too since the odds of having them prepared when they need them are low; they do have the option of waiting one day to fix the problem rather than having a scroll, but most of the time you don't have one day to wait. Anyway, FSs are not healers nor condition removers, they just fight and buff.

DMM is not that good unless you use nightsticks, otherwise IMHO you just get the worth of the ton of feats you have to invest.

RagnaroksChosen
2008-08-26, 07:54 AM
they can also be alot of fun as a melee combatant. Taking all the cleric self/buffs.. etc they can be alot of fun. i played with a guy who played one and he was almost as good ad our tank it was pritty sweet.

Tempest Fennac
2008-08-26, 07:55 AM
I know what you mean about Clerics using scrolls for those spells (I was just thinking that they would be able to make more of them if necessary if they brought the Scribe Scroll feat). The Extra Turning feat could be useful for DMM as well. What spell list would you give to a FS that you intended to pay as? I'm curious due to seeing them as being healers to a degree.

Andras
2008-08-26, 08:23 AM
As people have already said, it was a rebalancing of the Cleric. I've DMed for a guy who consistently uses them, and they're definitely capable enough to do their role without getting to -zilla proportions (well, at least not to the degree that Clerics do). I do wish they had kept the turning, at least, I would miss Divine feats playing as one.

One variant to note is the Dragon Magic variant, which gets several bonuses instead of WF/WS (claw attacks, Dragontouched as a bonus feat, and the ability to replace some of your spells known with Sorcerer spells, DR10/epic at 20th level instead of /cold iron or /silver). I never got around to playing one, but it's in the line of succession.

Saph
2008-08-26, 08:34 AM
• More balanced. Clerics are outrageously overpowered.

• Less bookkeeping. Clerics have a spell list with literally thousands of spells, all available. Even if you only use Core there are more Cleric spells than any sane player is willing to learn.

Having to select spells also gives Favoured Souls a bit more personality - Clerics tend to all come across as the same healer-swiss-army-knife character. Sometimes being able to do everything does not make for an interesting PC.

- Saph

Tempest Fennac
2008-08-26, 08:39 AM
Excluding the huge amount of non-core spells, how exactly are Clerics overpowered if you don't use DMM? They don't honstly strike me as being that overpowered at all.

Flickerdart
2008-08-26, 08:46 AM
Excluding the huge amount of non-core spells, how exactly are Clerics overpowered if you don't use DMM? They don't honstly strike me as being that overpowered at all.
Clerics and Druids automatically know every spell from levels they can cast. With the hundreds of supplements, that adds up to many, many spells.
Then comes the part they weren't designed for, which is using all those spells to cherry-pick buffs and then cast them on yourself. Now the Cleric hits harder and better than a Fighter, while still having full casting. Oh, and he's warded against everything that would stop a Fighter dead in its tracks, like death magic or targeting Will.

Tempest Fennac
2008-08-26, 08:52 AM
I know what you mean about self buffs. The problem with a lot of their spells is that they are situational to the point of not really being worth learning personally (I tend to think it makes sense from a fluff perspective that the spells are all available to learn; one problem that I have with the Ultimate classes is that it maes very little sense that Clerics and Druids need to pay to learn spells due to how they have dedicated their lives to serving nature/whichever diety gives them their powers). If you're not familiar with those classes, they are detailed on http://www.liquidmateria.info/wiki/Ultimate_Classes ).

bosssmiley
2008-08-26, 09:12 AM
As with the sorcerer the favoured soul was pre-emptively penalised for the sin of being a spontaneous caster, rather than a Vancian fire-and-forget caster. Inherent gamer conservatism FTL (or possibly "Skip HAET Sorcerer!").

JMobius
2008-08-26, 09:29 AM
I vastly prefer the flavor of the favored soul to that of the cleric.

Saph
2008-08-26, 09:34 AM
Excluding the huge amount of non-core spells, how exactly are Clerics overpowered if you don't use DMM? They don't honstly strike me as being that overpowered at all.

It's not as obvious as with other classes, but what it really comes down to is that Clerics have no weaknesses. Their AC is great because they can wear the best armour. Their saves are great (well, except Reflex, but they can heal that away). Their melee skills are great because they can buff themselves. And they have a full selection of thousands of spells, plus two domains which let them also get their pick of Wizard spells too, and if any spell isn't useful they can just turn it into a heal. About the only thing Clerics can't do is skills, and their spells can often make up for that.

When I'm DMing, the default class I use for human BBEGs is Cleric, because it's great at everything and actually justifies the BBEG being a one-man army.

- Saph

Person_Man
2008-08-26, 09:39 AM
• More balanced. Clerics are outrageously overpowered.

• Less bookkeeping. Clerics have a spell list with literally thousands of spells, all available. Even if you only use Core there are more Cleric spells than any sane player is willing to learn.

Having to select spells also gives Favoured Souls a bit more personality - Clerics tend to all come across as the same healer-swiss-army-knife character. Sometimes being able to do everything does not make for an interesting PC.

- Saph

Agreed. People call the Warmage, Dread Necromancer, Hexblade, Wu Jen, and occasionally the Beguiler weak. And compared to full casters with hundreds of spells on their list, they are. But if Vancian casting was going to be balanced, that's how it would have worked.

Also, I can't post on a Favored Soul thread without pimping my homebrew Domain Favored Soul (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=57097), which I of course think is vastly superior in every way. Sorry.

Frosty
2008-08-26, 10:38 AM
Agreed. People call the Warmage, Dread Necromancer, Hexblade, Wu Jen, and occasionally the Beguiler weak. And compared to full casters with hundreds of spells on their list, they are. But if Vancian casting was going to be balanced, that's how it would have worked.

Also, I can't post on a Favored Soul thread without pimping my homebrew Domain Favored Soul (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=57097), which I of course think is vastly superior in every way. Sorry.

The Hexblade without the fix *is* a bit weak. And who the hell calls the Beguiler weak anyways? I mean, saying something is weak compared to Wizards/Druids is like saying one of our artificial light sources on Earth is weaker than the Sun.

CASTLEMIKE
2008-08-26, 10:40 AM
OK, I don't get it.

I want to like the Favored Soul class, but it just seems too lose to much compared to the Cleric. Loss of turning, domains and heavy armor just doesn't seem worth spontaneous casting plus the few weak extras the class gets.

Can anyone sell me on this class?

Simpler and easier to play. It gets better HD, better Armor, better class Specials and more known spells than a sorcerer. How many spells does any PC Need? A Favored Soul just needs to determine a Focus. What DM doesn't allow a Favored Soul to cast a lower level spell with a higher level spell slot?

With access to Any Spell and Any Spell greater it can cast a lot of occassionally used spells with a little down time and a scroll or prayer/spell book.

Spending Feats and pursuing PRCs can further power up the class.

I like applying the Cloistered Cleric Variant to the Favored Soul which some games will not allow since it isn't a Cleric.

Regarding Heavy Armor except at very low levels options like Mithral and other materials basically make that a nonissue.

Fluffwise it is supposed to be a very rare class in game (just 1 or 2 for the entire religion) with a special unique connection to their Power. They are generally outnumbered by the Saints for the Good religions IMO, the Paladin class is quite a bit more common and each religion has a lot more Clerics.

RagnaroksChosen
2008-08-26, 11:13 AM
I like the favored soul variant that grants temp HP... its alot of fun to play a buffer/ healer type.

Koalita
2008-08-26, 11:23 AM
Fluffwise it is supposed to be a very rare class in game (just 1 or 2 for the entire religion) with a special unique connection to their Power. They are generally outnumbered by the Saints for the Good religions IMO, the Paladin class is quite a bit more common and each religion has a lot more Clerics.

Oddly, it seems NPC's know which class (cleric) is the overpowered one and pick it for their religion :D
Clever commoners! :P

Proven_Paradox
2008-08-26, 11:24 AM
I was wondering if anyone would mention that. The variant Ragnarok is talking about is in the PHBII, Deity's Favored I believe. They give out temporary HP on buff spells, making them that much more potent as support casters or buffed meleers. You get that in exchange for weapon focus/spec. Good times.

Cleric is going to be stronger if you're allowing splatbooks. There's no real way around that. But, the Favored Soul is still a lot of fun, and less bookkeeping as has been mentioned several times already.

Where I think FS really shines is gestalt. All good saves, full casting, and useful class features makes it a good choice for one side of a gestalt character.

Tempest Fennac
2008-08-26, 12:52 PM
What spell lists would you guys recommend for a FS? I'm guessing that a Cleric wouldn;t be a problem with me playing as one due to my tendancy to stick to specific rolls (I don't like overshadowing other players, and I take a "highlight strengths, hide weaknesses" approach to character design and spell lists).

CASTLEMIKE
2008-08-26, 01:15 PM
In high level games Miracle.:smallsmile:

Tempest Fennac
2008-08-26, 01:27 PM
I meant apart from that. I'd probably pick too many healing spells if I tried making one.

Frownbear
2008-08-26, 01:30 PM
OK, I don't get it.

I want to like the Favored Soul class, but it just seems too lose to much compared to the Cleric. Loss of turning, domains and heavy armor just doesn't seem worth spontaneous casting plus the few weak extras the class gets.

Can anyone sell me on this class?

Spells the Favored Soul knows: like ten.
Spells the Cleric knows and can prepare: every single one ever printed in any supplement that the DM allows for the game.


Also, Favored Souls have two casting stats; Clerics have one.

Innis Cabal
2008-08-26, 01:34 PM
All member of my party take both FS and Sorc over Wizard or Cleric. They ares just more fun to play. Less book keeping, less "i wins" and alot easier to get past a good sensible DM.

Frownbear
2008-08-26, 01:42 PM
What spell lists would you guys recommend for a FS? I'm guessing that a Cleric wouldn;t be a problem with me playing as one due to my tendancy to stick to specific rolls (I don't like overshadowing other players, and I take a "highlight strengths, hide weaknesses" approach to character design and spell lists).

No more than one healing spell per level (and not even that). Buff spells and effect spells with no save, combined with a focus on self-buffing melee.
Hint: Healing Lorecall turns your Cure spells into Panacea, if you have Heal ranks!

Favored Souls can't quicken Divine Favor, though, so they have a tougher time meleeing. Stupid spontaneous metamagic.

CASTLEMIKE
2008-08-26, 01:53 PM
In core 5 levels of Thaumaturgist can do a lot between the reduced cost for using Planar Ally spells. Gate (Solar and Titan and Genies) with a few Summon Monster spells to summon monsters with spell-like abilities. Other PRCs will do more or take the PC in a different direction.

Heal or Mass Heal, Amanuensis (Spell Compendium) with Lesser Restoration does a lot of healing, One Cure Wounds, Anyspell and or Anyspell Greater (Spell Domain, Initiate of Mystra and Spell Compendium) for some limited Arcane Casting with a scroll or spellbook, Word of Recall depends on the campaign. Lesser Planar Ally to qualify for Thaumaturgist PRC (Summon a Movanic Deva). Summon Monster 7+ to summon a Movanic Deva from the Fiend Folio to perform Raise Dead or a lot of other spells with spell-like abilities. Some buff spells like Divine Favor or Divine Power depending on concept of PC?

Proven_Paradox
2008-08-26, 01:56 PM
If you want to focus on melee, the standard Clericzilla fair will do you well. You should have enough spells known to do that.

If you want to focus on buffing allies, well, still the standard cleric stuff for that as well. If you want to go this route, definately pick up the Deity's Favored variant I mentioned in my last post. Greater Magic Weapon, Magic Vestment, Greater Resistance, and so on; long-term buff spells that everyone might want. Righteous Wrath of the Faithful is a good short term buff, especially if you pair it up with Diety's Favored and you don't have an arcanist throwing Haste around. For lower levels, spells like Resurgence and Sign are useful in low level games, yet still see use in higher levels as well.

Here's (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheets/view.php?id=48164) an old gestalt favored soul//paladin of mine, spell list still in tact. I never got a chance to do more than one fight with him, and he was focused on self-buffing before entering melee, so if you're going with the support role you'll want to adjust that a bit, but I feel that's an overall decent spell list for a favored soul.

Tempest Fennac
2008-08-26, 01:57 PM
Thanks. I don;t honestly think I'd bother with Thaumaturgist, though; it doesn;t look that good to me and it would reduce my fighting abilities (I don't like smmoning that much either). Why wouldn't you even recommend 1 healing spell/level? I'd have thought that those were the most important spells unless there was another Divine caster in the group.

Proven_Paradox
2008-08-26, 01:59 PM
Most of the time, you want your healing to happen outside of battle. That can be done with a wand of Minor Vigor. Spells known are scarce for you; why use those when you could replace it with a wand, no?

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-08-26, 02:02 PM
Thanks. I don;t honestly think I'd bother with Thaumaturgist, though; it doesn;t look that good to me and it would reduce my fighting abilities (I don't like smmoning that much either). Why wouldn't you even recommend 1 healing spell/level? I'd have thought that those were the most important spells unless there was another Divine caster in the group.Essentially because healing spells all have the same effect(increase HP), just at different power levels, so unless you're doing combat healing(don't), you can generally get by with only a couple of spells, cast repeatedly. Spells known is your key resource, and you want as little overlap as possible. Plus, healing usually scales poorly. The Vigor line is decent, but other than that and Heal, not really good level-to-HP ratio.

Tempest Fennac
2008-08-26, 02:09 PM
I tend to see combat healing as being essential sometimes (you can't predict whether you'll be able to kill the enemies before they kill you or your friend, so it's a bad idea to risk it). Now that I think about it, why isn;t using self buffs to take over from the Fighter seen as suboptimal even thought the Fighter can't use any magic at all?

EDIT: How is Amanuensis useful? All it seems to do is copy non-magical text.

Curmudgeon
2008-08-26, 04:31 PM
Favored Souls trade a lot of the generally useful Cleric stuff for very specific class abilities that may or may not suit what you're trying to do with the character. However, certain choices may make the FS work for you.

Favored Souls get Proficiency, Focus, and Specialization with their deity's favored weapon. For some deities this can mean a big advantage over comparable Clerics with the War domain. Kossuth (a Forgotten Realms deity) has the spiked chain as his favored weapon. But Kossuth isn't a War god. So choosing Favored Soul in this case gives Exotic Weapon Proficiency (spiked chain) and Weapon Specialization (spiked chain) as class abilities. A Cleric would have to spend a general feat and take 4 levels of Fighter to accomplish the same.

At high levels a Favored Soul can cast Antimagic Field and get into melee combat with enemies flying via magic. Because the FS uses wings to fly, the Antimagic Field will nullify the enemy's flight capability without hurting the FS. Fly up, attack with your spiked chain while they plummet, and pull up just before they smack into the ground for 20d6 damage -- then if necessary finish them off as you fly 10' overhead.

mostlyharmful
2008-08-26, 04:43 PM
When a player begins, they think the most valuable thing is spell slots
When they get a bit smarter, they think that the most valuable thing is actions
When they really understand it all, they realize that the most valuable thing is real-life time.

This is lovely, may I sig it?

tyckspoon
2008-08-26, 04:55 PM
I tend to see combat healing as being essential sometimes (you can't predict whether you'll be able to kill the enemies before they kill you or your friend, so it's a bad idea to risk it). Now that I think about it, why isn;t using self buffs to take over from the Fighter seen as suboptimal even thought the Fighter can't use any magic at all?


The math generally does not support combat healing. Consider Cure Critical: 4d8+level healing. Available at level 7 for a normal Cleric. Range is 11-39 points healed per cast, averaging 25.

A few CR 7 physically-inclined monsters: the bulette, chimera, and hill giant.
Bulette: Bite+ 2 claws (2d8+8, 2d6+4) averaging 17 and 11 damage per hit. 49 damage average on a successful full attack- outdamages your *max* heal without rolling especially well. Alternately, Leap for four claw attacks at better to-hit bonus; 44 average damage.

Chimera: Bite (2d6+4), Bite (1d8+4), Gore (1d8+4), 2 Claws (1d16+2). 11, 9.5, 9.5, and 5.5 damage. Averages 41 damage on full attack. Still outpaces your healing.

Hill Giant: Greatclub swung twice for 2d8+10. 38 average damage. You can just about match this if you roll really well.

And keep in mind this didn't include some of the *really* dangerous physical beasts, like the dragons or hydra. If you roll really well, you can just about keep up with the damage of one monster, but most of the time you'll still be behind. And you're burning a spell slot each round to do it, so you can't do it all that long. That only really changes when you get Heal, which is a guaranteed chunk of major healing. Alternately, you could spend your actions and your spells trying to *end* the fight.. even if you just make the monster die one turn faster than it would have been, well, take that bulette: That prevented it from dishing out another 49 damage, effectively saving more damage than you could possibly restore by dropping a heal instead.

CASTLEMIKE
2008-08-26, 05:26 PM
Thanks. I don;t honestly think I'd bother with Thaumaturgist, though; it doesn;t look that good to me and it would reduce my fighting abilities (I don't like smmoning that much either). Why wouldn't you even recommend 1 healing spell/level? I'd have thought that those were the most important spells unless there was another Divine caster in the group.

Thaumaturgist not for everyone it takes a little more work but summoning gets you a lot more spellcasting and if you do it well extra meat shields and actions summoning other combatants tailored to the situation. IMO in core it is a good PRC for a FS.

Healing depends on a lot of factors. It is usally a bad idea to perform it in the middle of a combat (Undead are an exception :smallsmile:) and a few other encounters it could be useful to do involving things like fast acting magical diseases that could waste a spell slot party. Depends on the the PC level, the campaign wealth level and how strictly that is tracked. Wands are usually fine for hit point healing after a combat with a little time a single level dip into Dragon Shaman can provide a lot of healing but at the end of the day casting a spell uses a resource that recharges without a material cost. Expendable resources can stretched out if spells are cast when available for free. The FS has limited known spell slots. FS can cast a lower level spell slot with a higher slot. Heal is a good spell at 12+ for a FS in a high level party unless you are in a party with resources to burn.

Tempest Fennac
2008-08-27, 12:12 AM
My problem with using maths for justifying only using out-of-combat healing is that it still doesn't alter the facts that an almost-dead ally could be killed at any minute, or the fact that you're still taking chances by using the Cleric to elimnate enemies.

tyckspoon
2008-08-27, 12:35 AM
My problem with using maths for justifying only using out-of-combat healing is that it still doesn't alter the facts that an almost-dead ally could be killed at any minute, or the fact that you're still taking chances by using the Cleric to elimnate enemies.

The point of the maths is that trying to heal in-combat is actually the bigger risk. You're not gaining any ground, so at best you just need to heal the guy *again* next round. And you're often actually losing ground, which means your ally is *still* at risk even after you heal him. It's a delaying action, at best, and while you're futilely trying to keep pace with the monster's damage you have an entire quarter (more or less depending on party size, of course) of the party's power focused on doing something that doesn't work very well. Heck, compare that losing treadmill to even using a lower-level slot: Cast Bestow Curse or Blindness/Deafness on the enemy instead. Bestow Curse can remove half of the enemy's actions entirely. That makes life much, much safer for whoever has to face off with it. Blindness is similar, as most opponents will now have to work to pinpoint their enemies and will still grant a 50% miss chance. Or you could use Divine Power and share the tanking job. Twice as many people hitting the monster, it goes down twice as fast, it only deals half as much damage over the course of the fight.

Tempest Fennac
2008-08-27, 12:42 AM
The problem with de-buffs is that they may not work if the target makes their save. Also, there's no guarentee that the monsters will always hit people, so you can still attack them. Also, Wizards and Sorcerers can de-buff things as well, but they can't heal people.

tyckspoon
2008-08-27, 12:48 AM
*shrug* Believe what you want. The system math supports taking active steps to end the fight instead of healing. I'll just make a last note: All of the Cure spells are touch range. In order to use them under normal circumstances, you're near the fighting already.. your ally might appreciate it if you step up and take some of the monster's attention off him instead of standing just at his back and letting him get beat up some more. Especially as a Favored Soul, which is meant to be more combatively-inclined.

Tempest Fennac
2008-08-27, 12:50 AM
I'd play a Cleric like that anyway. Just thinking about the idea that their armour proficiencies help to make them underpowered; without the Improved Healing Domain ability which lets you use 1 cure spell/Cleric level/day at Close range, wouldn't Clerics be too much of a liability if they didn't have a high AC?

Ascension
2008-08-27, 08:13 AM
Angelic wings (at high levels).

Such a close connection with the divine they don't even have to pray to wield the power of the gods.

BFS (well, at least if you're an FS of Kord).

Favored souls beat clerics on Rule of Cool (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RuleOfCool) alone. Who cares about game mechanics? :smallwink:

Tempest Fennac
2008-08-27, 08:25 AM
What does that rule have to do with Clerics? I like to play as realistic characters which are as effective as possible (the ironic thing is that I like RPing more then fighting and dice-rolling, but I'm much better at optimising them RPing). What does BFS mean, and is not needing to pray that much of an advantage as long as you stick to your diety's teachings? To be honest, the name puts me off as much as the lack of healing versatillity (I don't like the idea of playing as a class with a name that suggests that the class is better then everyone else.:smalltongue:).

CASTLEMIKE
2008-08-27, 08:26 AM
Kord and Kossuth have good weapons for Favored Souls.