[3.5] Feat: Grounding Counterspell (PEACH)

[infinitypanda]

One of the biggest problems with casters in 3.5 is, at least to me, save or dies. I don't think a level twelve wizard should be able to kill a level twenty fighter just because the fighter rolls poorly on a will save. So, here's this feat. It might be better as a houseruled feature instead of a feat though, since it's pretty (actually, amazingly) powerful.

Grounding Counterspell
Prerequisites: Base Attack Bonus +4, Spellcraft 4 ranks, Mage Slayer
Benefit: A character can counterspell spells cast on him while fighting defensively. However, doing so is taxing and the shock of magic running through the character's body deals hit point damage equal to half again as much as the spell level times the main stat bonus of the caster (Int for Wizards, Cha for Bards, etc). This damage has no type, and cannot be reduced or redirected in any way. The spell to be dispelled must first be identified with a successful Spellcraft check (DC 15+level of spell).
The choice to counterspell must be made before any damage or saves are rolled from the spell.
Normal: Characters who cannot cast spells cannot counterspell.

Example: Richard the Lionhearted, Aristocrat 1/Fighter 11, gets hit by a Flesh to Stone from a Muslim Sorcerer. Not wanting to chance a Fortitude save, he decides to use a little martial dispelling, using his entire body as a ground to absorb the magical energy of the spell, negating it. The Muslim Sorcerer has 18 Charisma, and Flesh to Stone is a 6th level spell, so the magical energy coursing through Richard's body causes him to take 36 damage. Good thing Richard was fighting defensively!


Basically, this spell turns save or dies into direct damage spells, so that casters can't have a one-shot win against martial characters.

[thegurullamen]

Okay, despite it's awesome overpoweredness, I think that, depending on your campaign/friends, this has some potential. You just need to buff the prereqs.

A) BAB +11 or so.
B) No more than 0 ranks in Spellcraft/Unable to cast spells.
C) Some other Fighter-y fluff to prevent everyone and their mother from taking it.

I also recommend either a damage boost, the use of a vile damage-like mechanic to prevent unnatural healing (just to reinforce the importance of the damage) or X uses per day.

Even then, this feat/calls feature is a little wonky.

[infinitypanda]

Yeah, like I said, I think it might be too strong to be a feat. But I still think that it won't make martial classes overpowered over casters, since the caster is still a flying, invisible, mage armored, hasted killing machine.

[thegurullamen]

DERAIL: Just invest in the ToB. It doesn't put melee'rs on the same level as casters, but it comes closer than anything else before it has. Also, it's fun for the melees who want to also be flying hasted SoBs who can carve canyons with halberds. (Though this would require a lot of homebrewing, it can easily fit the flavor of the ToB if you want it to.)

RERAIL: Solid, yo.

[infinitypanda]

DERAIL: Just invest in the ToB. It doesn't put melee'rs on the same level as casters, but it comes closer than anything else before it has. Also, it's fun for the melees who want to also be flying hasted SoBs who can carve canyons with halberds. (Though this would require a lot of homebrewing, it can easily fit the flavor of the ToB if you want it to.)

RERAIL: Solid, yo.

ToB is nice, but if the wizard wins initiative your warblade is Flesh to Stoned, or Sleeped (if he's low level) or any other appropriate SoD nastiness. This is just to give martial classes a bit of longevity.

But, you are right that the damage taken is a bit low. Maybe make it half again as much damage? That way a blocked 9th level spell from a 24 int wizard deals
95 damage. Definitely not SoD quality, but the fighter will certainly feel it.

[Draken]

It would be pretty pointless to force people to make a spellcraft check as part of the feat and not even allow them to buy ranks in the skill.

Besides. I would find it really strange that people with with absolutely no knowledge of magic (not a single spellcraft rank = magic dumb, simple like that, Knowledge Arcane has other functions) would be able to use their own bodies to ground magic energies tightly woven into a complex spell.

Prerequisites: BAB +11, 6 ranks in Spellcraft, Mage Slayer (Complete Arcane).

These seen to be good prerequisites I think. The six ranks in spellcraft would eat a lot of skill points from a dumb fighter, keeping it sure that only melees with brains in the skull would take the feat. Mage Slayer has some drawbacks (reduces all caster levels by 4) that would prevent casters from taking the feat to begin with.

Also make it a fighter bonus feat, of course, Mage Slayer is.

Finally, if you still think it s too powerful, give it uses per day. Maybe once for each four levels like Stuning Fist.

[infinitypanda]

That might work, but I wanted this skill to scale from level one, since even at that level you are quite vulnerable to save or dies. Perhaps something like this:

Prerequisites: Spellcraft 4 ranks, Int 13, Combat Expertise
And you can only do it while fighting defensively? Because this is definitely supposed to be a defensive upgrade, not an offensive one.

[Draken]

Mage Slayer is first avaible at third level, and this feat is definitelly better than it. At first level, with very few spells per day, this feat would spell certain doom for most casters.

If you want it to be avaible before 11° level, I wouldn't place it before 6° myself.

Prerequisites: BAB +5 or +6, Spellcraft 4 Ranks, Mage Slayer seens good as well.

I would keep a 1/day for each four character levels limit of uses, I think. Maaaybe giving fighters extra uses of it like a monk has extra uses of Stunning Fist.

[infinitypanda]

Ok. I've changed it to have those prereqs instead. However, I still don't think it deserves a daily limit, since by the time you can get it (level 6) you'll have around 50 hp, and blocking a 3rd level spell from an 18 Int Wizard deals 18 damage, so you can't block more than a few before you need to hit up the party cleric.

[Stycotl]

it is looking better as a viable feat now. i would get rid of this fluff text though, and anything like it:


A character with no spellcasting prowess...

since you have already decided that it requires ranks in spellcraft to take anyway. this feat could still be beneficial even to some casters (though there aren't many that would argue that the casting penalty from mage slayer is worth it).

also, come up with a better name. it is more than a martial dispel--especially since by the supposed rules by which magic works, you cannot martially dispel anything. it is more about intestinal fortitude, tenacity and instinct, and an iron will.

[Draken]

And using yourself as an arcane lightning rod.

[fangthane]

My suggestions:
1. Rather than immunity to the effect, I'd let the fighter receive SR 15+charlevel instead - spells which penetrate SR will have normal effect, those which fail will instead deal damage. (edit - maybe make it SR=15+BAB?)
2. Explicitly state that the damage sustained is without type and not susceptible to reduction or redirection of any kind.
3. Anyone with a casting class (or spell-like ability) who uses the feat to avoid a spell sacrifices a spell (or limited daily SLA use) of the same level or the effect fails. Any psionic character who uses the feat sacrifices psionic power points commensurate with the avoided spell's level (2n-1) or it fails. Any invoker (i.e. warlocks) who makes use of this feat is unable to use invocations for a number of rounds equal to the spell's level.
4. I'd call the feat "Grounding Counterspell" since that's more or less what it actually does.

As written, you're effectively allowing a fighter to counterspell single-target spells more reliably than casters; that just seems wrong.

[Burley]

And using yourself as an arcane lightning rod.

Actually, that's a really good idea. I say, another feat to take after this one. Make this feat an entire branch off of Mage Slayer.
Maybe something like:

Arcane Lightning Rod
Prerequisite: Martial Dispel, Combat Reflexes, BAB +5?, Spellcraft 6 ranks, (Maybe "Must be holding (in hand) a magical item")
Effect:When fighting defensively, and using the Martial Dispel feat thing, you may use an Attack of Opportunity to make a touch attack against an adjacent creature, transferring the effect of the spell to that creature.
You still take damage as per the Martial Dispel.
The save DCs of the transferred spell go off of the original caster.

[infinitypanda]

Ok, I made the damage typeless, but I'd rather have it be an automatic counterspell rather than just giving SR, since it's that random element of rolling badly means instant death that I'm trying to remove.

Edit: I've also updated the title of the thread to show the new name of the feat.

[Stycotl]

Actually, that's a really good idea. I say, another feat to take after this one. Make this feat an entire branch off of Mage Slayer.
Maybe something like:

Arcane Lightning Rod
Prerequisite: Martial Dispel, Combat Reflexes, BAB +5?, Spellcraft 6 ranks, (Maybe "Must be holding (in hand) a magical item")
Effect:When fighting defensively, and using the Martial Dispel feat thing, you may use an Attack of Opportunity to make a touch attack against an adjacent creature, transferring the effect of the spell to that creature.
You still take damage as per the Martial Dispel.
The save DCs of the transferred spell go off of the original caster.

this is actually along the line of the follow-up feat that i was thinking of. i was thinking that as well as dealing damage to yourself, it deals an equal amount (or half, if full is too much) of damage to the caster of the successfully dispelled effect. your version is certainly better in the sense that you can make an AoO, and choose the victim.