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shadow_archmagi
2008-08-26, 04:32 PM
Was debating with a friend whether a wizard 20 could defeat six terrasques. (Don't ask me how it broke the "There can only be one" rule.)

What does the board say?

Spiryt
2008-08-26, 04:39 PM
Well, someone certainly is going to say this, so why not me?

Tarrasque can't fly.

And doensn't really have good ways of attacking flying guys. Sure, he could probably make massive jumps with 45 Strenght, (although he have jump listed not in it's skills) but that's it.

So mage who plays it wise probably isn't in real danger.

Now he only got to think how to endanger them.

mostlyharmful
2008-08-26, 04:40 PM
Without using any of their top four spell slots. Seriously the BigT sucks, just mind-gank an allip or five and be flying.

Saph
2008-08-26, 04:42 PM
Question 1: What's the difference between a terrasque and a tarrasque?

Question 2: 3.5 or 4e?

- Saph

Jimp
2008-08-26, 04:50 PM
Question 1: What's the difference between a terrasque and a tarrasque?

Question 2: 3.5 or 4e?

- Saph

I'd imagine 3.5, since if it was 4e the wizard would probably be 30.

holywhippet
2008-08-26, 04:53 PM
I'd imagine 3.5, since if it was 4e the wizard would probably be 30.

Actually if it was 4E it would have to be 20 levels of wizard and 10 levels of a paragon class.

Zocelot
2008-08-26, 05:03 PM
No actually. You get a paragon path and an epic destiny as well as your 30 levels.

Arbitrarity
2008-08-26, 05:05 PM
Noo... 30 levels of wizard, 10 of which are paragon, and 10 of which are epic.

Anyway, 3.5, with unmodified tarrasques, is easy. Just target 1 at a time, and fly. So, phantom steed, for mobility. Tarrasque cannot harm you. Now. Cast Assay resistance, and spam Dominate Monster.

Sure, you only have 6-7/day. At a probable DC of 32, and a 5% chance of failure to overcome SR, Mr. T fails about 60% of the time.

So, you can take 3 down in one go. Have them fight the other tarrasques, and buff them up, while you go rest. Haste, mass bull's strength, etc. Also, take out a tarrasque with a maze spell or two, which your tarrasques can gang-beat when it reappears. This should result in 3 unconscious, and 3 dominated tarrasques. Keep your tarrasques beating up their counterparts. Come back, and dominate all the undominated tarrasques.

This requires some preparation, which is no problem if there is no time constraints. May take more than 1 try.

Requires:
Assay resistance (6 castings), Dominate Monster (about 12 castings), maze (around 2 castings), and any buffs you think will help your team win.

krossbow
2008-08-26, 05:11 PM
Gate in a few solars and have a kegger while your minions tear them apart piecemeal.

Akimbo
2008-08-26, 05:13 PM
Wizard level 20 vs infinite Tarrasques on Prime Material Plane: win goes to Wizard.

Chronos
2008-08-26, 05:13 PM
It's worse than that, even. If there's six tarrasques, then not only can the wizard beat them all, but it's suddenly gotten even easier for the wizard to beat everything else. The only thing stopping a wizard from Shapechanging into a tarrasque is that Shapechange can't be used for unique creatures. If there are six tarrasques, then it's not unique any more, so now you've got something running around with epic damage reduction, unbeatable regeneration, spell resistance, massive natural armor, and ninth-level spells.

Arbitrarity
2008-08-26, 05:14 PM
Well, yeah, trying to avoid gate. I don't like wasting XP. But you'd need to spend around 6K XP that way, to get enough solars to wish enough to actually wipe out the tarrasques. I prefer getting an army of 6 tarrasques for 1 9'th level slot/3 days.

Chronos... did you notice the HD limit on shapechange?

chiasaur11
2008-08-26, 05:23 PM
It's worse than that, even. If there's six tarrasques, then not only can the wizard beat them all, but it's suddenly gotten even easier for the wizard to beat everything else. The only thing stopping a wizard from Shapechanging into a tarrasque is that Shapechange can't be used for unique creatures. If there are six tarrasques, then it's not unique any more, so now you've got something running around with epic damage reduction, unbeatable regeneration, spell resistance, massive natural armor, and ninth-level spells.

Man, Tarrasque Batman Wizard.

Now that is an epic level challenge.

Frownbear
2008-08-26, 05:25 PM
I'm picturing a Tarrasque with a top hat, a monocle, and a spellbook.

Aron Times
2008-08-26, 05:26 PM
Just create an allip (you only need one) and use it to wisdom drain the Tarrasques to death. If you don't feel like brutally torturing a spirit to insanity and then trapping it in a painful mockery of life yourself, just cast Command Undead on an existing allip.

krossbow
2008-08-26, 05:31 PM
I'm picturing a Tarrasque with a top hat, a monocle, and a spellbook.



Hey, wait... but if there are six terrasques, there could be a whole terrasque society and terrasque religion, and terrasque royalty.




Do you REALLY want the god-emperor of the Mighty holy terrasque empire coming up to you and smiting you for impersonating one of his noble race?

CASTLEMIKE
2008-08-26, 05:33 PM
Fly and Baleful Polymorph Spells from memory and scrolls using suggested wealth by levels. Other spells to personal taste.




It's worse than that, even. If there's six tarrasques, then not only can the wizard beat them all, but it's suddenly gotten even easier for the wizard to beat everything else. The only thing stopping a wizard from Shapechanging into a tarrasque is that Shapechange can't be used for unique creatures. If there are six tarrasques, then it's not unique any more, so now you've got something running around with epic damage reduction, unbeatable regeneration, spell resistance, massive natural armor, and ninth-level spells.

Excellent point.

FMArthur
2008-08-26, 05:33 PM
The Terrasque. Much like the Tarrasque and the Torrasque, the Terrasque is an enormous, nigh-invincible beast with very high stats. Unfortunately for all mortals existing on the same plane as it, the Terrasque is different from the others in that it is the world, and that it can open any part of its body as a new mouth and devour everything in a maximum of 5 a mile radius. It has a maximum fly speed of nearly the speed of light with perfect maneuvrability and is always treated as flying. Its Strength is more than enough to hold all objects in the world as a 'light load'. In addition, it is immune to all magic but still somehow requires a Wish or Miracle to kill it. Good luck.

Spiryt
2008-08-26, 05:36 PM
Hey, wait... but if there are six terrasques, there could be a whole terrasque society and terrasque religion, and terrasque royalty.

Do you REALLY want the god-emperor of the Mighty holy terrasque empire coming up to you and smiting you for impersonating one of his noble race?

The god emperor Tarrasque is Planar Shepherd Tarrasque.

From Limbo.

tyckspoon
2008-08-26, 05:38 PM
Fly and Baleful Polymorph Spells from memory and scrolls using suggested wealth by levels. Other spells to personal taste.


Really? You're going to attack T's best save? Really? Sure, it'll work, eventually, but you're waiting on him to roll 1s... then again, you can memorize a *lot* more Baleful Polymorphs than Dominate Monsters, and if I understand the spell correctly a successful Polymorph will remove all of those other powers that make the Tarrasque normally hard to dispose of. So not as silly as it sounds.

thegurullamen
2008-08-26, 05:41 PM
Behold the patron god of Tarrasques? Dear lords, why?

Does anyone think that there will be some sort of eternal punishment for those of us who think up these ridiculous scenarios? Between this and the walking Astral Portal warforged from the other thread, I've got a heavy conscience. The gods of D&D must be pissed.

krossbow
2008-08-26, 05:42 PM
Behold the patron god of Tarrasques? Dear lords, why?

Does anyone think that there will be some sort of eternal punishment for those of us who think up these ridiculous scenarios? Between this and the walking Astral Portal warforged from the other thread, I've got a heavy conscience. The gods of D&D must be pissed.



Of course, thats what tarrasque hell is for.

Arbitrarity
2008-08-26, 05:43 PM
Scrolls, however, are unlikely to work. SR 32.

NOW! Tarrasque HD! 48d10+594 (858 hp)
Shapechange!

This spell functions like polymorph, except that it enables you to assume the form of any single nonunique creature (of any type) from Fine to Colossal size. The assumed form cannot have more than your caster level in Hit Dice (to a maximum of 25 HD). Unlike polymorph, this spell allows incorporeal or gaseous forms to be assumed.

Also: You have a 5% chance of affecting T with a Baleful Poly. Therefore, you need around 120 polymorphs, give or take. This will take LONGER than domination, unless you have about 60 slots of 5'th level and up. Which you don't. If you use scrolls, they must be very high caster level. You should use a stave, which at 33750 is much cheaper, and will eventually take out tarrasques. 2 staves and some spell slots should do the trick. But unless you have 2 months of preparation, not going to work well, unless you know someone who has staves of baleful polymorph on hand. Also, this results in many lizards, rather than dominated tarrasques.

thegurullamen
2008-08-26, 05:45 PM
What are the mental stats for yon Tarrasque? I'm curious if there ever could be a tarrasque religion. The soc/anth major in me wants to know what that'd be like.

MammonAzrael
2008-08-26, 05:47 PM
What are the mental stats for yon Tarrasque? I'm curious if there ever could be a tarrasque religion. The soc/anth major in me wants to know what that'd be like.

Yeah...they've got an Int of 3. Just toss 'em a headband of intellect +6 and see what they can do!

FMArthur
2008-08-26, 05:48 PM
It would mostly consist of devouring people, and deciding that it was the holy and moral thing to do. :smallconfused:

thegurullamen
2008-08-26, 05:49 PM
So Hextor?

krossbow
2008-08-26, 05:49 PM
What are the mental stats for yon Tarrasque? I'm curious if there ever could be a tarrasque religion. The soc/anth major in me wants to know what that'd be like.



Well, technically there IS a religion around the tarrasque, as the waker of the beast prestige class somewhat establishes that something about it, but i'm nothing really besides crazys growing horns, getting a vauge sense of the direction its in, and following it around trying to get it to go on rampages.



Off of that, i drew this way off topic, so i'll apologize and try and direct closer back to home.






Where are you fighting these tarrasques at? if you have the ability to fly, then there is literally no way for the wizard to lose to a tarrasque as long as he has access to a wish spell to end it permanently. its only a matter of time for the wizard to win.


(conversely, you could just dump it in acid, and then sell it to illithids who could hollow out its skull while it was incapacitated, then create a kick ass thrall for a load of gold)

thegurullamen
2008-08-26, 05:52 PM
Wasn't there some strategy based around fighting this thing in a canyon with one entrance and a casting of Wall of Force on these forums somewhere?

Starbuck_II
2008-08-26, 05:53 PM
Scrolls, however, are unlikely to work. SR 32.

NOW! Tarrasque HD! 48d10+594 (858 hp)
Shapechange!


Also: You have a 5% chance of affecting T with a Baleful Poly. Therefore, you need around 120 polymorphs, give or take. This will take LONGER than domination, unless you have about 60 slots of 5'th level and up. Which you don't. If you use scrolls, they must be very high caster level. You should use a stave, which at 33750 is much cheaper, and will eventually take out tarrasques. 2 staves and some spell slots should do the trick. But unless you have 2 months of preparation, not going to work well, unless you know someone who has staves of baleful polymorph on hand. Also, this results in many lizards, rather than dominated tarrasques.

That is only with the errata. The PHB version is 2 x caster (Max 50 HD). Granted, most people use errata.

Arbitrarity
2008-08-26, 05:57 PM
Huh, so it did. Interesting. My PHB has errata incorporated into it.

CASTLEMIKE
2008-08-26, 06:47 PM
Really? You're going to attack T's best save? Really? Sure, it'll work, eventually, but you're waiting on him to roll 1s... then again, you can memorize a *lot* more Baleful Polymorphs than Dominate Monsters, and if I understand the spell correctly a successful Polymorph will remove all of those other powers that make the Tarrasque normally hard to dispose of. So not as silly as it sounds.


True but you can do it in Core with a Core Spell :smallsmile:


Scrolls, however, are unlikely to work. SR 32.

NOW! Tarrasque HD! 48d10+594 (858 hp)
Shapechange!


Also: You have a 5% chance of affecting T with a Baleful Poly. Therefore, you need around 120 polymorphs, give or take. This will take LONGER than domination, unless you have about 60 slots of 5'th level and up. Which you don't. If you use scrolls, they must be very high caster level. You should use a stave, which at 33750 is much cheaper, and will eventually take out tarrasques. 2 staves and some spell slots should do the trick. But unless you have 2 months of preparation, not going to work well, unless you know someone who has staves of baleful polymorph on hand. Also, this results in many lizards, rather than dominated tarrasques.

5% chance is 1 in 20 not 120. Edit: Forgot we are dealing with 6 of the Big T.

fractic
2008-08-26, 06:49 PM
True but you can do it in Core with a Core Spell :smallsmile:



5% chance is 1 in 20 not 120.


He was probably talking about taking 6 Tarrasques down.

CASTLEMIKE
2008-08-26, 06:52 PM
He was probably talking about taking 6 Tarrasques down.

Probably right :smallsmile:

Akimbo
2008-08-26, 06:59 PM
True but you can do it in Core with a Core Spell :smallsmile:

You do know that Dominate Monster is a core spell right?

Thanatos 51-50
2008-08-26, 07:10 PM
Gate to the Elemental Plane of Water (Or energy plane of your choosing) + Illusion of a tasty village just on the other side.

Thats always been my favorite method.

Recaiden
2008-08-26, 07:11 PM
I believe that in FR there are multiple tarrasques. That said, unless these Tarrasques are changing feats or templates to buff their will save and get the ability to fly, they are all going down. That said, i reccomend the feat that lets you put fortitude save instead of will 1/day and shapesoulmeld (airstep sandals) just to give the tarrasques a fighting chance. That said, dominate monster beats Tarrasque.

CASTLEMIKE
2008-08-26, 07:19 PM
You do know that Dominate Monster is a core spell right?
Yep but this way low level wizards can take it down.:smallsmile:

krossbow
2008-08-26, 07:37 PM
the sad thing is, the tarrasque is so ridiculously easy to counter that its a wonder that its called "the kingdom eater"

Rei_Jin
2008-08-26, 07:49 PM
Well, the thing with the tarrasque is that unless you use out of game knowledge, you have no idea what it is, where it came from, and how to beat it. The knowledge check to learn ANYTHING about it would be at least 10+HD (48), so a total Knowledge: Arcana (as it's a magical beast) of 58 would tell you that it's the Tarrasque, with every 5 points that you beat the DC by giving you more info about it.

By the time you've worked out how to kill it, it has destroyed several kingdoms. And you've spent all your time flying above it, just watching it, possibly trying to kill it without much luck.

In any event, I can't see a standard party of even level 20, using standard tactics, working out how to beat the Tarrasque without some kind of outside help (divinations, NPC assistance, DM fiat, etc) or out of game knowledge when they first encounter it.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-08-26, 07:52 PM
Divinations are cheap at level 20, and what Wizard wouldn't have Assay Resistance prepped in case something came along? Spamming Will SoDs is basic when faced with a melee brute at that level, as is staying out of it's reach and being invisible. Not that hard to get past.

Revanmal
2008-08-26, 07:53 PM
the sad thing is, the tarrasque is so ridiculously easy to counter that its a wonder that its called "the kingdom eater"

Well, it's probably because NPCs have no idea how nor any means to beat one and even less of an idea on how to make sure it STAYS dead. The only reason players know is because the thing's monster entry tells you you need wish.

Occasional Sage
2008-08-26, 07:54 PM
The Terrasque. Much like the Tarrasque and the Torrasque, the Terrasque is an enormous, nigh-invincible beast with very high stats. Unfortunately for all mortals existing on the same plane as it, the Terrasque is different from the others in that it is the world, and that it can open any part of its body as a new mouth and devour everything in a maximum of 5 a mile radius. It has a maximum fly speed of nearly the speed of light with perfect maneuvrability and is always treated as flying. Its Strength is more than enough to hold all objects in the world as a 'light load'. In addition, it is immune to all magic but still somehow requires a Wish or Miracle to kill it. Good luck.

YOU, sir. You win.

arguskos
2008-08-26, 07:55 PM
Well, the thing with the tarrasque is that unless you use out of game knowledge, you have no idea what it is, where it came from, and how to beat it. The knowledge check to learn ANYTHING about it would be at least 10+HD (48), so a total Knowledge: Arcana (as it's a magical beast) of 58 would tell you that it's the Tarrasque, with every 5 points that you beat the DC by giving you more info about it.

By the time you've worked out how to kill it, it has destroyed several kingdoms. And you've spent all your time flying above it, just watching it, possibly trying to kill it without much luck.

In any event, I can't see a standard party of even level 20, using standard tactics, working out how to beat the Tarrasque without some kind of outside help (divinations, NPC assistance, DM fiat, etc) or out of game knowledge when they first encounter it.
Well, a level 20 party could use some basic guess-and-check techniques to figure out it's pretty much invulnerable.

Attack it. Regens.
Ok, use fire/acid (the most common regen breakers). Regens.
Try every energy type the casters have. Regens.
Cast cones, rays, lines at it. Carapace.
Ok, so, we've established it's immune to most spells and every damage type we can think of. Maybe mind control will do something?

Following this chain of logic leads to mind control and/or ability damage/drain (much of which either fails its SR, reflects, or it's immune to), leaving just mind control (SR issue, but it gets around everything else the Tarrasque is immune to).

There you are, logic from a level 20 party leading to Dominate Monster. Of course, this will take probably a day or two, since the Wizard can't have more than 1-2 Dominate spells (of any level) prepared today (why would he?).

-argus

Jack_Simth
2008-08-26, 08:00 PM
Just create an allip (you only need one) and use it to wisdom drain the Tarrasques to death. If you don't feel like brutally torturing a spirit to insanity and then trapping it in a painful mockery of life yourself, just cast Command Undead on an existing allip.
Or, you know, just Shapechange into one.



Well, the thing with the tarrasque is that unless you use out of game knowledge, you have no idea what it is, where it came from, and how to beat it. The knowledge check to learn ANYTHING about it would be at least 10+HD (48), so a total Knowledge: Arcana (as it's a magical beast) of 58 would tell you that it's the Tarrasque, with every 5 points that you beat the DC by giving you more info about it.

By the time you've worked out how to kill it, it has destroyed several kingdoms. And you've spent all your time flying above it, just watching it, possibly trying to kill it without much luck.

In any event, I can't see a standard party of even level 20, using standard tactics, working out how to beat the Tarrasque without some kind of outside help (divinations, NPC assistance, DM fiat, etc) or out of game knowledge when they first encounter it.
... well, once it becomes obvious that direct damage won't work, and once it becomes obvious that it's highly resistant to spells, and makes most saves, you start looking for other methods.

The Allip method actually makes a lot of sense from that perspective - the Allip's attack does stat drain - which, even if it can't technically kill Mr. T, takes him out of the picture fairly permanently. Additionally, it targets his weakest point - touch AC. And Allips are easy to know about, comparatively. Further, after a bit of observation, it's fairly simple to tell it can't fly, and some fairly easy experimentation lets you know it can't deal with incorporeal targets.

No OOC knoweledge needed after you've sat there and zapped it for a bit.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-08-26, 08:00 PM
Well, a level 20 party could use some basic guess-and-check techniques to figure out it's pretty much invulnerable.

Attack it. Regens.
Ok, use fire/acid (the most common regen breakers). Regens.
Try every energy type the casters have. Regens.
Cast cones, rays, lines at it. Carapace.
Ok, so, we've established it's immune to most spells and every damage type we can think of. Maybe mind control will do something?

Following this chain of logic leads to mind control and/or ability damage/drain (much of which either fails its SR, reflects, or it's immune to), leaving just mind control (SR issue, but it gets around everything else the Tarrasque is immune to).

There you are, logic from a level 20 party leading to Dominate Monster. Of course, this will take probably a day or two, since the Wizard can't have more than 1-2 Dominate spells (of any level) prepared today (why would he?).

-argusExcept a direct attack on a colossal creature is idiotic. Something like that, I'd start with saves first, since if there's anything you learn from Dragons, it's that the bigger they are, the harder it is to make them fall. SR is a minor annoyance, when a Wiz may well have a wand of Assay Resistance at that level. (760,000 GP, what else will he buy?)

Nerd-o-rama
2008-08-26, 08:00 PM
What level 20 wizard wouldn't spam Dominate Monster at something that big and nasty?

"Say, that thing looks a lot more efficient then my current stable of dominated/undead/summoned mindslaves!"

tyckspoon
2008-08-26, 08:00 PM
Following this chain of logic leads to mind control and/or ability damage/drain (much of which either fails its SR, reflects, or it's immune to), leaving just mind control (SR issue, but it gets around everything else the Tarrasque is immune to).


Ability drain does work, as it's a distinct form of damage from normal ability damage (both are listed under 'Ability Loss' in separate headings.) It's probably an oversight, but it works- it's the basis for the Allip kill. Things that deal ability drain are relatively rare among spells and class abilities, however, so it's relatively unlikely the party will have one around.

krossbow
2008-08-26, 08:02 PM
hell, you don't even need to know how to KILL it to dispose of it. a party in one campagin fought a regenerating monster without teleporting/planeshifting power, and after beating on its puddled remains for a few minutes, just opened a portal to the negative energy realm and chucked it in.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-08-26, 08:03 PM
hell, you don't even need to know how to KILL it to dispose of it. a party in one campagin fought a regenerating monster without teleporting/planeshifting power, and after beating on its puddled remains for a few minutes, just opened a portal to the negative energy realm and chucked it in.Would Gate+Positive Energy plane work? I doubt even the Terrasque is immune to that.

edit: Alternatively, Gate+lowest level of the 9 hells. Let them eat demons! And cake. ;)

arguskos
2008-08-26, 08:16 PM
Except a direct attack on a colossal creature is idiotic. Something like that, I'd start with saves first, since if there's anything you learn from Dragons, it's that the bigger they are, the harder it is to make them fall. SR is a minor annoyance, when a Wiz may well have a wand of Assay Resistance at that level. (760,000 GP, what else will he buy?)
Except that, by level 20, it is highly likely that they have fought scary looking stuff, and not only prevailed, but did so without any casualties. Really, the Tarrasque isn't that scary looking, he's just big.

As for the wand of a fairly obscure, minor spell, yes, if the wizard A) knows about the spell, B) can find a wand of it, C) doesn't have anything else he'd rather buy, and D) has a DM that even allows the spell, then sure, he could have a wand of Assay Resistance. Note how that's a goodly number of "if's" there. :smallwink:


What level 20 wizard wouldn't spam Dominate Monster at something that big and nasty?

"Say, that thing looks a lot more efficient then my current stable of dominated/undead/summoned mindslaves!"
While very true, he probably would prepare many on your average day. Maybe 1. Once they SEE the Tarrasque, then sure, he's preparing nothing else tomorrow. That gives the Big-T one day to do the whole "Imma destroy the nation now, kthx" thing.


Ability drain does work, as it's a distinct form of damage from normal ability damage (both are listed under 'Ability Loss' in separate headings.) It's probably an oversight, but it works- it's the basis for the Allip kill. Things that deal ability drain are relatively rare among spells and class abilities, however, so it's relatively unlikely the party will have one around.
Ah yes, I forgot that. Anyway, it's pretty rare that the party has ability drain, on hand, when the Tarrasque pops up anyhow. As for the Allip kill, how would the party know the Allip did drain and not damage? I'm actually curious about that: is there a difference, or is one just permanent?


Would Gate+Positive Energy plane work? I doubt even the Terrasque is immune to that.

edit: Alternatively, Gate+lowest level of the 9 hells. Let them eat demons! And cake. ;)
With Gate, you have to get it through the Gate. Beyond that, yeah, I bet that would neutralize it (not kill it, Wish and everything).

Also, 9 Hells=Devils. Just saying'. :smalltongue:

-argus

Nerd-o-rama
2008-08-26, 08:20 PM
While very true, he probably would prepare many on your average day. Maybe 1. Once they SEE the Tarrasque, then sure, he's preparing nothing else tomorrow. That gives the Big-T one day to do the whole "Imma destroy the nation now, kthx" thing.Point, unless the wizard has been thorough enough with his Divinations cast on previous days that he knows exactly what he'll be facing, which is generally assumed in this sort of hypothetical thread (which is part of why wizards invariably FLAWLESS VICTORY them, but I digress).

Anyway, yeah, the Tarrasque(s) might have a day of freedom after the Wizard spots them, and they might destroy some hapless NPC nation. Why does the wizard care again?

Inhuman Bot
2008-08-26, 08:21 PM
I belive you have to be willing to go through a gate spell.

tyckspoon
2008-08-26, 08:21 PM
Ah yes, I forgot that. Anyway, it's pretty rare that the party has ability drain, on hand, when the Tarrasque pops up anyhow. As for the Allip kill, how would the party know the Allip did drain and not damage? I'm actually curious about that: is there a difference, or is one just permanent?


How would they know? Knowledge check. 'What kind of damage it does' should be reasonably easy to make, and the Allip should be an easy check by that point. The difference is indeed that Drain is permanent; it doesn't heal naturally and it takes higher-level magic to cure it (Minimum of Restoration instead of Lesser Restoration. Which makes Allips particularly nasty for their supposed CR, as they're CR 3 but deal damage that you can't personally fix until spell level 4.)

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-08-26, 08:26 PM
As for the wand of a fairly obscure, minor spell, yes, if the wizard A) knows about the spell, B) can find a wand of it, C) doesn't have anything else he'd rather buy, and D) has a DM that even allows the spell, then sure, he could have a wand of Assay Resistance. Note how that's a goodly number of "if's" there.It's actually a fairly common spell, when you may run into opponents with SR out the wazoo at any point. Level 20 means the occasional encounter will be epic, so you'll want a way to harm them. A 20th level wizard has 8 or 9 1st level spells and nothing better to spend them on, so why not?

Akimbo
2008-08-26, 08:30 PM
As for the wand of a fairly obscure, minor spell, yes, if the wizard A) knows about the spell, B) can find a wand of it, C) doesn't have anything else he'd rather buy, and D) has a DM that even allows the spell, then sure, he could have a wand of Assay Resistance. Note how that's a goodly number of "if's" there. :smallwink:

Except that same number of ifs apply to every single spell in existence.

He could just commission the wand in Sigil, remember how he's level 20?

Collin152
2008-08-26, 08:40 PM
I belive you have to be willing to go through a gate spell.

I believe that the fact the spell is to the contrary is the entire point of it.

arguskos
2008-08-26, 08:47 PM
Except that same number of ifs apply to every single spell in existence.

He could just commission the wand in Sigil, remember how he's level 20?
This is very true. Also, I am more than aware it applies to all spells ever. Which is why I think it's rather silly to assume the wizard has the ONE spell, in a wand nonetheless, that he'll need to kill a monster he doesn't know much (if anything) about, just laying around. Really, we're relying on a single wand of a spell the wizard probably doesn't have/isn't allowed to kill this thing? Cause that's a great plan? :smallwink: At best, the wizard would have to cast some sort of divination spell to find out the spell exists, then cast something else (Gate for a wish-granter, I guess?) to get the damn thing. I'm not ruling out the possibility that the wizard has Assay Resistance, but all I'm saying is that it's probably not a major priority.

Lastly, the DC to learn about the Tarrasque's big ability (Wish to stay dead) is probably pretty high, maybe 68+. That's yet another obstacle the PC's have to surmount to be able to kill the Tarrasque.

All I'm saying folks is that it isn't really that easy to kill the Tarrasque. With perfect knowledge, an optimized party, or Batman, sure, it's a cakewalk. With an average (ie. non-optimized) level 20 party? Hell no. Will they probably kill it off? Yeah. Will it take a little while? Most likely, unless they absolutely ACE their Knowledge checks, and are pretty badass to boot.

-argus

tyckspoon
2008-08-26, 08:54 PM
This is very true. Also, I am more than aware it applies to all spells ever. Which is why I think it's rather silly to assume the wizard has the ONE spell, in a wand nonetheless, that he'll need to kill a monster he doesn't know much (if anything) about, just laying around. Really, we're relying on a single wand of a spell the wizard probably doesn't have/isn't allowed to kill this thing? Cause that's a great plan? :smallwink: At best, the wizard would have to cast some sort of divination spell to find out the spell exists, then cast something else (Gate for a wish-granter, I guess?) to get the damn thing. I'm not ruling out the possibility that the wizard has Assay Resistance, but all I'm saying is that it's probably not a major priority.
-argus

Er? Why do you think Assay Resistance would be at all a rare spell? It helps you beat Spell Resistance. That's something pretty much every caster ever would like to have on hand. It's even one of the fairly scarce 4th-level spells that would be *worth* making a Wand for. In fact, it's something a wizard might consider making himself. You can dispute whether or not it's overpowered, but I have trouble with the idea of 'you've never heard of a spell to help you beat Spell Resistance.' And it's not even a necessity for a high-level kill, it just helps. At level 20, you need a 12 or better to beat the Tarrasque's standard SR. Add Spell Penetration, Greater Spell Penetration, and maybe a caster level boost (Ioun stone, Archmage class feature, whatever) and you're at a 60-70% chance of success without even applying Assay Resistance.

arguskos
2008-08-26, 08:58 PM
Er? Why do you think Assay Resistance would be at all a rare spell? It helps you beat Spell Resistance. That's something pretty much every caster ever would like to have on hand. It's even one of the fairly scarce 4th-level spells that would be *worth* making a Wand for. In fact, it's something a wizard might consider making himself. You can dispute whether or not it's overpowered, but I have trouble with the idea of 'you've never heard of a spell to help you beat Spell Resistance.' And it's not even a necessity for a high-level kill, it just helps. At level 20, you need a 12 or better to beat the Tarrasque's standard SR. Add Spell Penetration, Greater Spell Penetration, and maybe a caster level boost (Ioun stone, Archmage class feature, whatever) and you're at a 60-70% chance of success without even applying Assay Resistance.
Mostly because not every adventurer knows or cares about SR. Some, sure, but I think that most characters have more important spells on their acquire list. Anyway, since spells in the game are a complete DM decision, let's move on. I'm willing to admit that SR-breakers are something I don't fully agree are common, and I'm also willing to concede the point in interest of not bogging down discussion.

-argus

Rei_Jin
2008-08-26, 08:58 PM
Strangely enough, all the methods used to defeat the Tarrasque WITHOUT OOC knowledge note that you won't defeat it on your first encounter with it without extraordinary circumstances.

The tarrasque is dangerous because unless you specifically prepare to fight him, you won't defeat him. Sure, if you can get through his SR and he fails his Will Save, you can dominate him or similar. But how many Dominates have you prepared for a normal day? I can't see it being a huge amount, normally one dominate is all you would need. Odds are that he's going to rampage for a while at least, and do quite a bit of damage in that time. You have to go off and rest and prepare to specifically fight him, and in that time, how many peons will he kill? How many towns or cities will he destroy?

D&D is built around being the hero. And the tarrasque provides an epic end to your non-epic levels in a roleplaying situation where you are trying to be the hero. Lives lost, and a great beast that is almost impossible to defeat rampaging through the land, and only YOU can defeat it.

Also, how many kingdoms do you think would allow you to keep the Tarrasque alive once you have succeeded in dominating it? You would be getting demands to kill or banish it to somewhere that it can do no harm. Then you've got another problem on your hands.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-08-26, 08:58 PM
Er? Why do you think Assay Resistance would be at all a rare spell? It helps you beat Spell Resistance. That's something pretty much every caster ever would like to have on hand. It's even one of the fairly scarce 4th-level spells that would be *worth* making a Wand for. In fact, it's something a wizard might consider making himself. You can dispute whether or not it's overpowered, but I have trouble with the idea of 'you've never heard of a spell to help you beat Spell Resistance.' And it's not even a necessity for a high-level kill, it just helps. At level 20, you need a 12 or better to beat the Tarrasque's standard SR. Add Spell Penetration, Greater Spell Penetration, and maybe a caster level boost (Ioun stone, Archmage class feature, whatever) and you're at a 60-70% chance of success without even applying Assay Resistance.And the only reason I'd be without Assay Resistance at level 10, let alone 20, is if I was playing core-only, the main spot where those feats are taken. I still have trouble thinking of it as a rare spell, though.

krossbow
2008-08-26, 09:23 PM
not really. basically what people are doing is thinking

"how do i defeat an undefeatable monster"
THEN they research what spells will let them do this. its not really out of character so much as common sense.

Inhuman Bot
2008-08-26, 09:28 PM
I believe that the fact the spell is to the contrary is the entire point of it.

What?
I'am sorry, but I'am unable to know what you mean, due to grammerical error. Would you kindly rephrase that? at least I think it is.

Collin152
2008-08-26, 09:35 PM
What?
I'am sorry, but I'am unable to know what you mean, due to grammerical error. Would you kindly rephrase that? at least I think it is.

The point of the spell, or so I believe, is that it pulls unwilling creatures through.

arguskos
2008-08-26, 09:39 PM
It does, but in the case of unique monsters (like the Tarrasque) they can choose to not answer.

In the case of casting a Gate next to the Tarrasque, and getting it to enter the Gate, that's also pretty tough.

-argus

krossbow
2008-08-26, 09:48 PM
you could always planar shift the -0 body though. since it'd be unconscious, it wouldn't get a save. you could chop it up into little pieces and do it in multiple trips if need be. once its reduced to a puddle, all it takes is some wacks every now and again to buy all the time you need.

Nerd-o-rama
2008-08-26, 09:51 PM
It does, but in the case of unique monsters (like the Tarrasque) they can choose to not answer.

In the case of casting a Gate next to the Tarrasque, and getting it to enter the Gate, that's also pretty tough.

-argusIllusion. It's probably not intelligent/perceptive enough to disbelieve anything you put in front of it until it actually tries to touch something.

Not sure if you can make a Gate sized for a collosal creature, though. Pull one through involuntarily, sure, but if you're just making a portal, is it large enough?

CASTLEMIKE
2008-08-26, 09:57 PM
Gate spell is a 5' - 20' radius without meta to enlarge it (Doable with the right feats) Big T is Colossal sized so 64'+ .

Akimbo
2008-08-26, 10:33 PM
Mostly because not every adventurer knows or cares about SR. Some, sure, but I think that most characters have more important spells on their acquire list. Anyway, since spells in the game are a complete DM decision, let's move on. I'm willing to admit that SR-breakers are something I don't fully agree are common, and I'm also willing to concede the point in interest of not bogging down discussion.

No, but every Wizard cares about SR. And every Wizard knows about Assay Resistance. And it should be a priority.

And Spells are no more a DM decision then feats, or class levels. Yes the DM can arbitrarily declare that you can't have that spell. But that is exactly equivalent to him saying you can't be a Wizard.

You do know that there are rules for knowing about a spell right? And those rules are a Spellcraft check DC 15 + Spell level?

So in fact, a level 9 Wizard has 12 ranks and probably at least an 20 Int, probably the synergy from Knowledge Arcana too. So that's a likely minimum of +19 to the check, meaning he auto succeeds to know any 4th level spell, including Assay Resistance.

EDIT: As for actually running into the Tarrasque and defeating it, as was mentioned, you try a bunch of spells of different types, or if you have a Divination prepared, (or you have the spontaneous divination feature) you ask what it is not immune to (since you've already discovered that it is immune to a lot of things). When you find out ability drain you become an Allip and knock it out and bring it's HP down really fast. And you Divination should tell you about the Wish thing.

Alternatively you could just cast Know Vulnerabilities.

Connington
2008-08-26, 10:48 PM
Also, how many kingdoms do you think would allow you to keep the Tarrasque alive once you have succeeded in dominating it? You would be getting demands to kill or banish it to somewhere that it can do no harm. Then you've got another problem on your hands.

If you've enslaved a Tarrasque, somehow I doubt what the local kings think is all that important.

Collin152
2008-08-26, 10:50 PM
If you've enslaved a Tarrasque, somehow I doubt what the local kings think is all that important.

Hey, you stopped it.

chiasaur11
2008-08-26, 10:54 PM
Hey, you stopped it.

So now they're going to try to beat the monster they needed heroes for, and the guy who mind(you of all people should know)ed it.

I think abject surrender is more likely.

Eldariel
2008-08-26, 11:30 PM
The Terrasque. Much like the Tarrasque and the Torrasque, the Terrasque is an enormous, nigh-invincible beast with very high stats. Unfortunately for all mortals existing on the same plane as it, the Terrasque is different from the others in that it is the world, and that it can open any part of its body as a new mouth and devour everything in a maximum of 5 a mile radius. It has a maximum fly speed of nearly the speed of light with perfect maneuvrability and is always treated as flying. Its Strength is more than enough to hold all objects in the world as a 'light load'. In addition, it is immune to all magic but still somehow requires a Wish or Miracle to kill it. Good luck.

Still dies to a CR 3 encounter in an Allip - they have eternity so they'll eventually get hits to it and eventually they'll touch it and eventually the Terrasque will fall.

Deth Muncher
2008-08-26, 11:53 PM
edit: Alternatively, Gate+lowest level of the 9 hells. Let them eat demons! And cake. ;)

Sidenote: I don't think this works. I'm pretty sure you can only get to Hell 8 before that whole "inaccessable" thing starts kicking in.

As in, I know you can't teleport to Hell 9. I'm pretty sure Gate won't work either, except (and I'm kinda foggy on remembering this) for the Permanent Gate to Hell 9 contained within Hell 8, constantly guarded by big...thingies. Devils of some sort, I presume.

Talic
2008-08-27, 12:02 AM
I want to see the tarrasque with 20 levels of bard. Or Monk. Monk would be cool too.

chiasaur11
2008-08-27, 12:09 AM
I want to see the tarrasque with 20 levels of bard. Or Monk. Monk would be cool too.

Yeah.

Would the bard play power metal, or merely growl incomprehensibly?

CASTLEMIKE
2008-08-27, 12:09 AM
Just adding the Legendary Monster template would be nice.

Talic
2008-08-27, 12:13 AM
Yeah.

Would the bard play power metal, or merely growl incomprehensibly?

Perform (Slamdancing). Imagine that mosh pit.

Zeful
2008-08-27, 01:06 AM
I'm just curious, what divinations are being cast, and if it's something like Contact other Plane, what questions are you asking?

Mastikator
2008-08-27, 07:07 AM
Would poking them with plane shift count as defeat if you manage to get them into, say.. elemental plane of fire? Or maybe negative energy?

Seems like an easy way to one-shot them with a 5th level spell each.

Arbitrarity
2008-08-27, 08:02 AM
No.
Carapace, damage reduction 15/epic, immunity to fire, poison, disease, energy drain, and ability damage, regeneration 40, scent, spell resistance 32

Fire? Does nothing. Negative Energy?


On minor negative-dominant planes, living creatures take 1d6 points of damage per round. At 0 hit points or lower, they crumble into ash.

Major negative-dominant planes are even more severe. Each round, those within must make a DC 25 Fortitude save or gain a negative level.

Negative level? I.e. Energy drain? Darn. Also, look at T's fort save.

1d6/round? Ooooh, regeneration 40.

Now, planeshifting to a strongly positive section of the positive energy plane, assuming the tarrasque cannot leave that area, is a kill. Also, elemental plane of water, as there is no surface. Tarrasque can't hold his breath forever.

Akimbo
2008-08-27, 08:41 AM
Would poking them with plane shift count as defeat if you manage to get them into, say.. elemental plane of fire? Or maybe negative energy?

Seems like an easy way to one-shot them with a 5th level spell each.

Well he needs to fail the save (or be willing from being unconscious, so you've already kind of beat him). And as for the planes, not sure about negative energy, but Big T could march around the plane of fire non-stop, since all it does is 1d6 damage per round, and he regens 40.

Chronos
2008-08-27, 12:16 PM
The key thing about the tarrasque is that, yes, it's easy for it to survive the things you do to it, but it's even easier for you to survive anything it can do. Even assuming no prior knowledge (via skills or divinations), anyone can look at it and go "Hmm, really big heavy thing with no wings. I'll bet it can't fly.", and presto, you've already gotten to the point where it can't hurt you. A little more observation will show you that it pretty much just rampages indiscriminately, and doesn't show any particular intelligence. That's enough to make it a reasonable guess that Will is probably its weakest save. And even if its collosal size didn't give you the impression that it has a ton of HP, if you did try any damaging attack, you'd quickly notice that it either shrugs them off in the first place or regenerates almost instantly, so HP damage definitely isn't the way to go.

So just from the most casual of observation, you could easily deduce (correctly, as it turns out) that you can be safe from it by flying; that using save-or-suck spells will probably be more productive than trying to damage it; and that those spells should target its Will save. And, of course, Dominate Monster is by far the best Will save-or-suck (since you get the monster on your side), so if you have access to it, that's what you're going to try.

As for the kingdom suffering while you're preparing, take another look at its movement speed. Something like the Tarrasque is going to be noticed as soon as it awakens, so unless it surfaces right next to a town, you're going to have plenty of lead time before it does anything too bad. It'll probably ruin a fair bit of farmland, but if you're feeling sorry for the peasants, that's nothing that a few castings of Plant Growth or the like won't make up for.

Mastikator
2008-08-27, 12:32 PM
As far as I'm concerned, and I'm sure you all will agree with me, is that it's not necessary to kill an enemy in order to defeat it. And the Tarrasque has no way of getting back from any plane it is shifted to.
So isn't moving it to a different plane a way of neutralizing it as a threat and thwarting whatever it was doing, permanently ergo, defeating it.

In fact, plane shift just might be an instant way of one-shotting any non-caster.
It's kind of an overpowered spell.

And there are ways to get over its will save, as already mentioned in the thread. No to mention it's a 5th level spell, with Heighten Spell you can fill 20 slots (not including extra slots from specialization or intelligence bonus), each 4 with a higher DC save than the previous.

Or you can quicken it, (and use both hands?), that's 2 (4?) tries per turn.