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shadow_archmagi
2008-08-26, 07:11 PM
One thing i've noticed is that most builds go to 20, and don't usually explain where the power starts coming in.

Personally, I've never experienced a game at over 16, and that was a rare and short-lived experience. The majority of my time has been spent below ten.

Why do so many builds go to 20? What level do you guys play at? I've heard bad things about 20+, is it really that way?

arguskos
2008-08-26, 07:21 PM
Builds go to 20 so you can see what your progression will look like IF the campaign continues that far. Since few do, it's not that useful, but on the off chance it happens, it's nice to have a plan.

At level 21 and up, yeah, the universe breaks. Epic Spellcasting really is that INSANE. Ask Tippy if you need proof.

I've played games at all levels of power in 3.5 (even a game where we used some of the Immortal's Handbook rules... that was freakin' crazy), and really, if everyone puts a little thought into their characters before the game starts, just enough to go, "I'm thinking about Dwarven Defender" (or whatever), it helps speed up leveling and whatnot. Planning builds ahead is useful, if you're into that anyway.

-argus

CASTLEMIKE
2008-08-26, 07:26 PM
Personally, I've never experienced a game at over 16, and that was a rare and short-lived experience. The majority of my time has been spent below ten.

Why do so many builds go to 20? What level do you guys play at? I've heard bad things about 20+, is it really that way?

Half the games are supposedly around L10 and below. I find levels 2 - 7 to be the most fun in a quid pro quo game where a mistake or two doesn't normally kill you.

Chronicled
2008-08-26, 07:26 PM
At level 21 and up, yeah, the universe breaks. Epic Spellcasting really is that INSANE. Ask Tippy if you need proof.

Actually, he's built a fully legal (it doesn't even need any sketchy ruleslawyering, unless you count Embrace/Shun the Dark Chaos working on elf bonus feats, which is fully legal) nigh-indestructible/undetectable blaster wizard that can one-shot just about anything... at level 17 or 18.

But Epic Spellcasting really ramps up the insanity.

arguskos
2008-08-26, 07:28 PM
Yeah, saw that.

However, I was talking about stuff like the damn Telekinetic Sphere around the whole world, and similar crap. I saw an Epic Spell someone around here made that could create an ENTIRE GALAXY in one round. There's nothing to say, except:

>_>
<_<
>_<

-argus

_Puppetmaster_
2008-08-26, 07:29 PM
I have never gone over level four.

Most builds go to level 20 because a lot of the really, really cool/broken abilitities come at higher levels.

Gorbash
2008-08-26, 07:36 PM
Games I've played in usually started at lvl 3 and ended around 8-9. Now for the first time in my life I'm playing a lvl 10 character with tendency toward greatness (lvl 20). And man is it more fun than lower lvls. The only reason I'll play in forthcoming Age of Worms AP beginning at lvl 1 is because I'm positive I'll reach lvl 20.

Akimbo
2008-08-26, 08:36 PM
Games I've played in usually started at lvl 3 and ended around 8-9. Now for the first time in my life I'm playing a lvl 10 character with tendency toward greatness (lvl 20). And man is it more fun than lower lvls. The only reason I'll play in forthcoming Age of Worms AP beginning at lvl 1 is because I'm positive I'll reach lvl 20.

This is the most sensible thing I have ever seen typed anywhere. I invite you to the high level club, where we wish more people would play high level.

Frosty
2008-08-26, 08:38 PM
Actually, he's built a fully legal (it doesn't even need any sketchy ruleslawyering, unless you count Embrace/Shun the Dark Chaos working on elf bonus feats, which is fully legal) nigh-indestructible/undetectable blaster wizard that can one-shot just about anything... at level 17 or 18.

But Epic Spellcasting really ramps up the insanity.

I still haven't seen any DM allow it irl though.

Mooch
2008-08-26, 09:40 PM
Actually, he's built a fully legal (it doesn't even need any sketchy ruleslawyering, unless you count Embrace/Shun the Dark Chaos working on elf bonus feats, which is fully legal) nigh-indestructible/undetectable blaster wizard that can one-shot just about anything... at level 17 or 18.

But Epic Spellcasting really ramps up the insanity.

and where would a link to a build such as this be?

mabriss lethe
2008-08-26, 09:50 PM
Depends on the style of play.

For me, the "Sweet Spot" has always been somewhere between level 8-12. You start being able to pull off a few bits of insanity when the need arises, but your characters are still risking their necks in any serious conflict.

In that range, you've got a lot of options, but not a whole lot of broken.


But sometimes it's just fun to play at the extreme ends of the spectrum.

(I still want to get my "commoner conscript" game off the ground but everyone looks at me in mild horror when I bring it up.)

Colmarr
2008-08-26, 10:29 PM
and where would a link to a build such as this be?

I don't know the link, but I've seen the build.

It relies on:

1. A feat (from Fiendish Codex IIRC) that allows you to swap feats (Embrace/Shun the Dark Chaos). Edit: It's a spell, not a feat.

2. Starting as an elf and using that feat to replace all the weapon proficiency feats that elves get with more useful caster feats (eg. swapping Weapon Proficiency (Longsword) for Quicken Spell, Twin Spell etc.)

3. Reading metamagic adjustment feats as allowing adjustment to -1 (eg. A metamagic feat that is normally +0 spell level becomes -1 spell level and thus allows you to add a +1 spell level metamagic for free (which is actually normally a +2 metamagic before the adjustment).

It's probably the best piece of one-eyed RAW I've ever seen for 3e and I admire the work that went into finding the loopholes. Would I ever allow it into my game as a DM, or play alongside it (or with it) as a player? Never. Ever.

Akimbo
2008-08-26, 10:53 PM
I don't know the link, but I've seen the build.

It relies on:

1. A feat (from Fiendish Codex IIRC) that allows you to swap feats (Embrace/Shun the Dark Chaos).

2. Starting as an elf and using that feat to replace all the weapon proficiency feats that elves get with more useful caster feats (eg. swapping Weapon Proficiency (Longsword) for Quicken Spell, Twin Spell etc.)

3. Reading metamagic adjustment feats as allowing adjustment to -1 (eg. A metamagic feat that is normally +0 spell level becomes -1 spell level and thus allows you to add a +1 spell level metamagic for free (which is actually normally a +2 metamagic before the adjustment).

It's probably the best piece of one-eyed RAW I've ever seen for 3e and I admire the work that went into finding the loopholes. Would I ever allow it into my game as a DM, or play alongside it (or with it) as a player? Never. Ever.

Um, sorry, it's all 2-eyed RAW with no loopholes, just a more intelligent use of things then was expected by the designers.

Secondly, it doesn't even really require all those things, since a basic Incantatrix 20 With Persist Spell is already invulnerable.

The rest is just gravy to give yourself a single spell that defeats 90% of enemies.

Eldariel
2008-08-26, 11:11 PM
I love playing pre-Epic games (16-20), but with heavy houseruling to prevent Wizards from boning the reality in the rear too hard. And yea, obviously I don't allow Incantatrix without heavy houseruling (just as I don't allow Planar Shepherd without heavy houseruling). I like my campaign world, thank you very much, and I'd rather not have some errant Wizard rebuilding the universe on a whim.

The power is really appealing for the group - when all characters play on the same level, the combat can get really interesting with all the magic, countermagic (Battlemagic Perception and Duelward are musts on those levels - also, Ring of Counterspells in all its incarnations and so on) and contingencies - much like a strategy game of depleting opponent's resources and finding the least deflectable course of attack. Of course, this is the "high-level casters play Rocket Launcher Tag and nobody else gets to play"-thing.

Rei_Jin
2008-08-26, 11:31 PM
Embrace/Shun the Dark Chaos are both spells, level 8 for either a Cleric or a Sorceror/Wizard, with a 250xp component to cast, and no DM in their right mind would allow a character to exploit them in the manner that is suggested. Whilst it might be fine under RAW, that's why a DM is supposed to control what a player can and cannot do. Some things are just exploits and should be viewed as such.

That being said, the morality of a character that is willing to cast Embrace the Dark Chaos, or one who is willing to be the recipient of it, is severely in question, and in fact should result in alignment shift to chaotic (if they weren't already) due to the result of casting said spell. And whilst the text specifically says that they aren't evil in nature (the abyssal heritor feats) it's not a stretch of the imagination to see that such a character would gain the attention of the abyss, quite possibly to their detriment.

FMArthur
2008-08-26, 11:35 PM
You have to play with other people who know what they're doing, in levels above 10, or it's just ridiculous how much of a power disparity there can be between players. Having played a campaign that went from 3 to 16 in a party with a good player, a mediocre player, and two clueless ones, it is not fun to see them struggle. Wasn't even a caster/non-caster split; some people just haven't learned enough about the game to play it effectively. This becomes more and more apparent as character options become availible and planned growth begins to come to fruition.

Akimbo
2008-08-27, 12:00 AM
Embrace/Shun the Dark Chaos are both spells, level 8 for either a Cleric or a Sorceror/Wizard, with a 250xp component to cast, and no DM in their right mind would allow a character to exploit them in the manner that is suggested. Whilst it might be fine under RAW, that's why a DM is supposed to control what a player can and cannot do. Some things are just exploits and should be viewed as such.

That being said, the morality of a character that is willing to cast Embrace the Dark Chaos, or one who is willing to be the recipient of it, is severely in question, and in fact should result in alignment shift to chaotic (if they weren't already) due to the result of casting said spell. And whilst the text specifically says that they aren't evil in nature (the abyssal heritor feats) it's not a stretch of the imagination to see that such a character would gain the attention of the abyss, quite possibly to their detriment.

1) Oh noes, they are chaotic. Or just neutral and willing to do anything to accomplish their goals.

2) Oh noes, they have the Abysses attention, to their detriment. How is this different from all the other PCs ever played who all have to fight things? It's actually more useful then not, because it allows you to pick who you fight, and I'd prefer it be Pit Fiends to Balors or Solars.

3) I'm sorry, why would no good DM ever allow you to use such a technique to get the feats you want? Is there some rule somewhere that players shouldn't have the feats they want? Or that bonus feats are teh brokenzors?

Rei_Jin
2008-08-27, 12:07 AM
I'll take that as a flamebait, and an attempt to incite me.

That being said, if you disagree with me, that's fine. You are welcome to, but I'd appreciate it if you didn't do it in such a condescending manner.

Akimbo
2008-08-27, 12:09 AM
I'll take that as a flamebait, and an attempt to incite me.

That being said, if you disagree with me, that's fine. You are welcome to, but I'd appreciate it if you didn't do it in such a condescending manner.

Well then I'll take your post as flamebait, since that's apparently the new thing to do. Just get offended and ignore everything that's said.

Talic
2008-08-27, 12:38 AM
No DM in their right mind would allow this perfectly RAW and by the book option.

This amounts to:

The game made a mistake and now relies on all DM's, everywhere, to fix it, by collectively ignoring this one broken element.

Doesn't sound so hot in that context, though.

Rei_Jin
2008-08-27, 12:47 AM
Well, Wizards themselves have said that they stuffed up. Why else would they write, on their own website, that some sections of the things they created for 3.5 were so bad that they should never be used and should be viewed as non-aggresion means, like a mutually assured destruction from nuclear weapons.

Also, note that the DMG does say that a DM is supposed to control the access that players have to everything outside of the PHB.

It's the same way that no-one should allow the War Hulk prestige class to be taken in epic advancements. There are some things that just shouldn't be. Chaos Shuffle is one of those.

Mastikator
2008-08-27, 12:52 AM
I prefer to play around 1-4, it gets kind of manga-ish and gimmic-y after that, in my perspective. Which I feel ruins the mood.

CASTLEMIKE
2008-08-27, 12:56 AM
Well, Wizards themselves have said that they stuffed up. Why else would they write, on their own website, that some sections of the things they created for 3.5 were so bad that they should never be used and should be viewed as non-aggresion means, like a mutually assured destruction from nuclear weapons.

Also, note that the DMG does say that a DM is supposed to control the access that players have to everything outside of the PHB.

It's the same way that no-one should allow the War Hulk prestige class to be taken in epic advancements. There are some things that just shouldn't be. Chaos Shuffle is one of those.

That's why I dislike the high level uber games in a quid pro quo game one mistake and you are toast.

Colmarr
2008-08-27, 01:18 AM
3) I'm sorry, why would no good DM ever allow you to use such a technique to get the feats you want?

I imagine Rei_Jin and others are primarily referring to the use of the spell to replace Elven racial feats. And I agree with him in that regard, with one minor modification.

No sane DM with any desire for a balanced game would allow the spells to be used in that way, because they allow a character at virtually no cost to exchange a thing of little value for something of much greater value in a way that was almost certainly not foreseen or intended by the original designer(s) of the spell, the feats, or the race.

Further, the build requires reducing penalties so far that they become bonuses (ie using metamagic adjustment feats). To the best of my knowledge, this is possible nowhere else in D&D and was IMO clearly not intended by the designer(s).

Enough said.

As to the OP's original question, I've never seen higher than level 12.

Saph
2008-08-27, 07:34 AM
Half the games are supposedly around L10 and below. I find levels 2 - 7 to be the most fun in a quid pro quo game where a mistake or two doesn't normally kill you.

Actually, the last time I took a poll on it, it was 85%. The ratio was something like 40% levels 1-5, 45% levels 5-10, 13% levels 11-15, 2% levels 16-20. I've been wanting to do another poll, but they've been deactivated for a while now.

The 2% for levels 16-20 might have been an overestimate, btw.

If you're wondering why so few play at high levels, refer to the above discussion about stupidly broken Wizard builds. :P A better way to look at it is that level 11-15 IS high level. Level 11-15 is already a power level on par with the tougher members of X-Men, where you're untouchable by normal humans and can do just about anything. Level 16-20 is Phoenix/Xavier level, where you're a threat to the entire planet. Level 21+ is Galactus level, where you're a threat to the entire universe.

- Saph

Pyroconstruct
2008-08-27, 07:45 AM
I try to make it standard when posting builds to explain how the build plays at all levels (and to note what levels it sucks at). Some builds have a "schtick" that doesn't kick in until mid-to-high levels, and it's good to clarify what the minimum level is and what to do until then.

Saph
2008-08-27, 07:54 AM
I try to make it standard when posting builds to explain how the build plays at all levels (and to note what levels it sucks at). Some builds have a "schtick" that doesn't kick in until mid-to-high levels, and it's good to clarify what the minimum level is and what to do until then.

The better character builders generally do this now. 1/5/10/15/20 is one of the standard templates. It's much more sensible than starting at level 20 and working backwards.

Personally, I think most builds work better if the designers assume the game will never go past level 10, and treat everything after that as a cool (but unlikely) bonus. After all, that's what usually happens.

- Saph

Gorbash
2008-08-27, 07:59 AM
I prefer to play around 1-4, it gets kind of manga-ish and gimmic-y after that, in my perspective. Which I feel ruins the mood.

For me it ruins the mood when I get killed by a lucky critical and there's nothing I can do about it.

CASTLEMIKE
2008-08-27, 08:16 AM
For me it ruins the mood when I get killed by a lucky critical and there's nothing I can do about it.

Just need the +0 LA Soul Locked template from Heroes of Horror :smallsmile:

only1doug
2008-08-27, 08:16 AM
my party are currently between L11 &L13 L12 (my character was highest at L13 and he died). group has evolved a bit since we created the original party at L1 (only the druid is original)



For me it ruins the mood when I get killed by a lucky critical and there's nothing I can do about it.

well, we're playing Wound and vitality points, so anyone can die to a critical... except we tend to engineer towards immunity from crits (paladin has 42 wound points, druid is warshaper etc).

My sorcerer was immune to crits, he just took too much con damage and died anyway

Chronos
2008-08-27, 12:25 PM
Um, sorry, it's all 2-eyed RAW with no loopholes, just a more intelligent use of things then was expected by the designers.What do you think "loophole" means? By any definition, characters like Cindy the Incantatrix exploit loopholes. The question is just whether you think exploiting loopholes is bad.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-08-27, 12:27 PM
What do you think "loophole" means? By any definition, characters like Cindy the Incantatrix exploit loopholes. The question is just whether you think exploiting loopholes is bad.Except how is it a loophole. I mean, the Arcane Thesis+Incantrix is a loophole, no doubt, but does the Chaos Shuffle count?

nagora
2008-08-27, 12:29 PM
Also, note that the DMG does say that a DM is supposed to control the access that players have to everything outside of the PHB.
Oh, oh! This could get rough...:smallbiggrin:

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-08-27, 12:33 PM
Oh, oh! This could get rough...:smallbiggrin:Yeah, I love how the first thought anyone has when discussing balance is "Ban everything but core". 3 of the 5 worst classes are core, and the most balanced books are the most banned.(XPH, ToB)

Frosty
2008-08-27, 12:55 PM
What are the other 2 classes? Artificer and Archivist?

Anyhow, my two favorite balanced books in terms of classes (not counting Alternative Class features though) are Tome of Battle and Player's Handbook 2. All the classes in there except the Dragon Shaman are fairly balanced. Some of the ACFs are too powerful, but for the most part the books are balanced.

Johel
2008-08-27, 01:25 PM
Two campaigns so far and a lot of one-month plays.
We usually begin 2nd or 3rd and never went past 12th.
The reason is more a question of campaign lenght than anything else.

An "average" level depends on how powerfull are your random NPC.
I play in a homebred world. Our city guards are mainly 2nd-3rd level, which means we can't mess with the autorities until 6th level. The more powerfull human NPC are 15th, with only dragons, giants and outsiders going over that and they are not common sight.

Within this BG, I find the phase between the 4th to 7th level to be the most interesting. You're just above the elite to be a hero but you still have to run away from anything numerous/big/mighty enough.

I usually make my build to reach the 6th level and then I adapt to what the situation need.

CASTLEMIKE
2008-08-27, 01:46 PM
What do you think "loophole" means? By any definition, characters like Cindy the Incantatrix exploit loopholes. The question is just whether you think exploiting loopholes is bad.

IMO it is only bad when the NPCs and BBEGs don't use the same "loopholes" and general tactics as the party because there is less fun to be had in a cakewalk.

Frosty
2008-08-27, 01:55 PM
IMO it is only bad when the NPCs and BBEGs don't use the same "loopholes" and general tactics as the party because there is less fun to be had in a cakewalk.

I don't like the arms race too much because then Burly McFighter in the group feels useless, scared, and most likely will die first.

Person_Man
2008-08-27, 02:25 PM
As others have said, you stat out a build from level 1-20 so that you can avoid poor long term choices. A classic example is Cleave. It's useful at low levels, when it's quite common for a solid melee build to kill an enemy with one attack while threatening another enemy, and thus gain a bonus attack most turns. But at higher levels, you're much less likely to drop an enemy each round, and enemies are much more likely to fight from a distance (magic, ranged weapons, flight, reach, etc). So a first level Fighter might want it, but its a waste for a 14th level Fighter.

The problem is easily solved by having the original poster state what ECL you'd like a build to start at and go up to. That way, other posters can give more better advice.

Colmarr
2008-08-27, 08:08 PM
IMO it is only bad when the NPCs and BBEGs don't use the same "loopholes" and general tactics as the party because there is less fun to be had in a cakewalk.

There are 2 problems with this:

1. A player needs to create 1 character. A DM needs to create hundreds. The time expended by a DM trying to match player power creep would be prohibitive.

2. There are only a certain number of truly effective loopholes that have been uncovered. Even if the DM were to use them all, he would either be (1) consistently sending underpowered opponents against his PCs or (2) basing a campaign on the PC encountering the same things over and over but with different cosmetics ("oh, look, it's Cindy but she's a redhead now!"

Pie Guy
2008-08-27, 09:23 PM
Can you switch out fighter feats with embrace/shun?

If you could, the fighter now has access to about 4x as many feats as the rest of the party.

tyckspoon
2008-08-27, 09:27 PM
Can you switch out fighter feats with embrace/shun?

If you could, the fighter now has access to about 4x as many feats as the rest of the party.

Yes, but: A fighter's weapon, armor, and shield proficiencies are not feats. They are class features. They cannot be shuffled. The Bonus Feats may be shuffled, but most of the feats that are good for Fighters are already Fighter Bonus Feats, so there is relatively little to be gained by doing so.

CASTLEMIKE
2008-08-27, 10:34 PM
Yes, but: A fighter's weapon, armor, and shield proficiencies are not feats. They are class features. They cannot be shuffled. The Bonus Feats may be shuffled, but most of the feats that are good for Fighters are already Fighter Bonus Feats, so there is relatively little to be gained by doing so.

Page 90-91 of the PHB the 3 armor proficiencies, the shield proficiency and martial weapon proficiency are all general feats.

tyckspoon
2008-08-27, 10:42 PM
Page 90-91 of the PHB the 3 armor proficiencies, the shield proficiency and martial weapon proficiency are all general feats.

Ok, the fact that there exist feats that do the same thing does not mean the fighter's proficiencies are feats. Compare these texts:


Weapon and Armor Proficiency

A fighter is proficient with all simple and martial weapons and with all armor (heavy, medium, and light) and shields (including tower shields).


Weapon Proficiency: Elves receive the Martial Weapon Proficiency feats for the longsword, rapier, longbow (including composite longbow), and shortbow (including composite shortbow) as bonus feats. (emphasis added)

The fighter is proficient as a class feature. Not by getting a whackload of free feats. Does not qualify for shuffling. The Elf is proficient explicitly by receiving bonus feats. Does qualify for shuffling. If the Elf text was in the same format as the Fighter (IE, 'Weapon Proficiency: All elves are proficient with the longsword, rapier, longbow, and shortbow') then the Elf proficiencies wouldn't qualify either.

Dausuul
2008-08-27, 11:00 PM
As far as 3.X goes, my experience has been that the vast majority of games take place in the level 4-10 range. That's the "sweet spot" where everything works right, the classes are all more or less balanced (you can see the first hints of caster supremacy around level 8 or 9, but it doesn't really take off for a couple more levels), and people have a decent array of abilities without the wacky hijinks of high-level spellcasting.

I have played a few games at higher and lower levels, including one really crazy game at levels 18-20. And yes, it was that bad. There was one fight with a bunch of balors in which one of the PCs got killed twice (and was alive at full hit points when the battle ended). The climactic battle was against a great red wyrm with templates and an assistant to heal it, and we wiped the floor with it in about three rounds. But that sort of game is the exception rather than the rule.

In 4E, my hope is that it will be more feasible to play at high levels. The game I'm currently running started at 1st and just hit 6th, and I want to take it all the way to 30th eventually. We'll see how it goes.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-08-27, 11:03 PM
I like level 10 and up. That's when it has the most fun abilities, IMHO. Of course, I almost never get more than a couple sessions like that before the game dies, and every new GM makes me start at stupid level 4 after I detail a character concept that becomes viable at 8! :smallmad:

drengnikrafe
2008-08-27, 11:38 PM
Since we're asking, my buddies and I have had awful luck with keeping games going. The stats sit as follows: 3 games have progressed beyond their original level (which has been 1 almost every time), the rest have not. Of those 3, 2 got to level 2, and one got to 8th level. 8th level was fun, but I prefer simple roots of first level, since they let you flesh out your character more realistically.

CASTLEMIKE
2008-08-27, 11:55 PM
Ok, the fact that there exist feats that do the same thing does not mean the fighter's proficiencies are feats. Compare these texts:

The fighter is proficient as a class feature. Not by getting a whackload of free feats. Does not qualify for shuffling. The Elf is proficient explicitly by receiving bonus feats. Does qualify for shuffling. If the Elf text was in the same format as the Fighter (IE, 'Weapon Proficiency: All elves are proficient with the longsword, rapier, longbow, and shortbow') then the Elf proficiencies wouldn't qualify either.

I disagree Evasion is a Class Special of the Monk, Rogue and other classes with the exception of the Variant Classes it does not appear as a feat in the game. The proficiency in Martial Weapons can be considered a class special since it is the equivalent of multiple individual martial weapon feats.

Summon Familiar is a class special the closest feat I am aware of is Obtain Familiar.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/combatModifiers.htm#weaponArmorAndShieldProficienc y

This is the link you want for feat clarification for spell purposes:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#armorProficiencyLight


Armor Proficiency (Light) [General]
Benefit
When you wear a type of armor with which you are proficient, the armor check penalty for that armor applies only to Balance, Climb, Escape Artist, Hide, Jump, Move Silently, Sleight of Hand, and Tumble checks.

Normal
A character who is wearing armor with which she is not proficient applies its armor check penalty to attack rolls and to all skill checks that involve moving, including Ride.

Special
All characters except wizards, sorcerers, and monks automatically have Armor Proficiency (light) as a bonus feat. They need not select it.

Armor Proficiency (Medium) [General]
Prerequisite
Armor Proficiency (light).

Benefit
See Armor Proficiency (light).

Normal
See Armor Proficiency (light).

Special
Fighters, barbarians, paladins, clerics, druids, and bards automatically have Armor Proficiency (medium) as a bonus feat. They need not select it.


Armor Proficiency (Heavy) [General]
Prerequisites
Armor Proficiency (light), Armor Proficiency (medium).

Benefit
See Armor Proficiency (light).

Normal
See Armor Proficiency (light).

Special
Fighters, paladins, and clerics automatically have Armor Proficiency (heavy) as a bonus feat. They need not select it.


Shield Proficiency [General]
Benefit
You can use a shield and take only the standard penalties.

Normal
When you are using a shield with which you are not proficient, you take the shield’s armor check penalty on attack rolls and on all skill checks that involve moving, including Ride checks.

Special
Barbarians, bards, clerics, druids, fighters, paladins, and rangers automatically have Shield Proficiency as a bonus feat. They need not select it.

Xenogears
2008-08-28, 02:08 PM
The very first time I played D&D I played with my older brother (he was about 18 and had been playing for years. I was maybe 13-14). He had maybe one or two books but had memorized enough of the DMG to play without it (so I had to take his word on everything) and he had more House Rules than I could possibly list. I didn't even know they were house rules since this was my first time playing and I had only read the Players Handbook. So I started as a Human Wizard. He started as a maralith. A maralith with one level of fighter at that. The Campaign lasted maybe a month or two and by the end of it we were all about level 400. Seriously. We all had used some epic spell he designed to give us Six Usable arms and we all wielded six +300 swords with abilities that don't even exist (like godly speed. just like a speed weapon except it gives 8 extra attacks and costs like +70). We literally had billions upon billions of platinum and nothing to spend it on.

I think the experience tainted me because I am a compulsive power player. Everytime I look at the rules for anything the first thing that pops into my head is how to horribly abuse the rules.