i think i may have figured out a good use for Hideous Blow?

[RagnaroksChosen]

So i was looking over the Scouts handbook and I saw a cool build for a scout X/psy Warrior 1/Pyrokineticist 10 and it made me think after reading the Pyro's abilities of a Warlock/scout/pyro build

Some thing like Warlock10 /scout6/ pyro 4
Taking improved skirmish in there, wild talent to proc pyro.

so at level 20:
move at least 20ft then use hideos blow with the pyros Fire whip. That meens you would stack the eldritch blast + skirmish + fire whip dmg + weapon afire dmg as a ranged touch attack.

so that would be 1d8(firewhip) + 2d6(weaponafire) + 4d6 skirmish + 5d6 eldritch blast...
Plus you can added other invocations to your attacks if you want.

The only two Issues I can see with this is DM's don't allow the fire whip to have weaponafire placed on it... and or if you can use hideous blow with a whip(cu its a ranged touch attack)...


What are your thoughts ideas? any thing to add?

[Flickerdart]

That doesn't sound like a lot of damage at level 20 when even a Fighter can do hundreds of damage per turn, not to mention 3000-damage Wizard spells.

[Treguard]

Umm, straight rogues of around that level would get almost that much from sneak attack alone, and they can full attack each time with that 10d6..

[Tokiko Mima]

Hmm... if you want to go fire crazy with a Warlock, check out Fiendish Codex II for the Hellfire Warlock PrC. My warlock (Warlock 6/Ruathar 3/Hellfire Warlock 3/Uncanny Trickster 3) is only Character Level 15 and is pumping out 19d6 damage Hellfire Blasts that I can convert into 3 seperate Eldritch Glaive reach melee touch attacks, or a Eldritch Chain with a Primary and 3 secondary (half damage) targets.

Plus, Hellfire is more fun than regular fire: it does full damage to objects and even normally fire-immune creatures, like devils and fire elementals aren't immune to the incredible heat of Hellfire.

[RagnaroksChosen]

well then guys any way you think i can maximise the bennifit of this combo then as now im actualy interested in playing some thing along these lines in a new game...


tokikogood point whish i could find a way to addin hellfire lock into it... also i belive you can make interations with the whip i would just need to find a way to move and make full attack with out charging.

[Tokiko Mima]

tokikogood point whish i could find a way to addin hellfire lock into it... also i belive you can make interations with the whip i would just need to find a way to move and make full attack with out charging.

Wel, that's the part where Hideous Blow kinda, well... blows. It's a standard action, and you only ever get one attack per round, even if you could normally full attack with your weapon. Also, Hideous Blow is a regular melee attack, not a touch attack like most other blast shapes. Touch attacks discount armor, natural armor, shields, and even the exalted bonus from Vow of Poverty. With Hideous Blow, you are much more likely to miss because you have to roll against all that armor those big bad monsters tend to have.

I'm just not sure a whip is going to do what you want it to at level 20. A whip is limited by it's inability to damage someone in armor, or with a natural armor AC of +3 or higher.

You can fit a level of Hellfire Warlock into your build without a problem. It's possible to qualify for Hellfire Warlock with Warlock 9, so you could do Warlock 9/Hellfire Warlock 1/Scout 6/Pyro 4. That tacks on another +2d6 Hellfire damage at least. Add a standard issue Greater Chausible of Fell Power (MIC) that EVERY warlock should have and it's +4d6 total.

[RagnaroksChosen]

Wel, that's the part where Hideous Blow kinda, well... blows. It's a standard action, and you only ever get one attack per round, even if you could normally full attack with your weapon. Also, Hideous Blow is a regular melee attack, not a touch attack like most other blast shapes. Touch attacks discount armor, natural armor, shields, and even the exalted bonus from Vow of Poverty. With Hideous Blow, you are much more likely to miss because you have to roll against all that armor those big bad monsters tend to have.

I'm just not sure a whip is going to do what you want it to at level 20. A whip is limited by it's inability to damage someone in armor, or with a natural armor AC of +3 or higher.

You can fit a level of Hellfire Warlock into your build without a problem. It's possible to qualify for Hellfire Warlock with Warlock 9, so you could do Warlock 9/Hellfire Warlock 1/Scout 6/Pyro 4. That tacks on another +2d6 Hellfire damage at least. Add a standard issue Greater Chausible of Fell Power (MIC) that EVERY warlock should have and it's +4d6 total.

hideos blow says you make a Melee attack with it. The fire whip ability of the pyro PRC says it counts as a whip for all related feets but you make a ranged touch attack.

yes i wasn't including items in the build mainly because i couldn't remember the name of the Item that added to eldritch blast dmg... like im sure theres oother feets and or items that help it.. or this build...

Also what level do you start taking dmg from hellfire... cuz if its the first then you could add in a levle of binder to negate that althoguh i think that would throw things off.

[Benejeseret]

"I must not worship the d6's.
d6's are the character optimization-killers.
d6's are the little-death that brings total obliteration to my effectiveness.
I will face my d6's obsession.
I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the d6's have gone there will be nothing.
Only my better character design will remain."

Likewise
"I must not worship the Hideous Blows.
Hideous Blows are the character optimization-killers.
Hideous Blows are the little-death that brings total obliteration to my effectiveness.
I will face my Hideous Blow misconceptions.
I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the Hideous Blows have gone there will be nothing.
Only my better character design will remain."

Because Hideous blow only goes off once per round and limits you to only one attack per round no matter your BAB, pounce etc.

Never be fooled by getting to roll lots of dice. Always consider the average damage per dice, in your case 4.5 for the d8 and 3.5 for all those d6's.

Also, there is no need for Hideous Blow as your combo can fly around, invisible, striking death from above. Skirmish works just fine on Ranged Attacks and should be so...using the Spear (250' range) an invisible flying warlock/scout.

Likewise, there is nothing a Pyrokineticist can do that straight warlock cannot do better with invocations. Fire bolt < Blast modified by type/shape. Firewalk<free fly. Nimbus is nice except the whole 1 min/once per day... the fire resistance does trump that granted by the warlock...but the warlock does get it and gets it in more than one energy type.

However,
Scout gives +1d6 per 2lvls...but so does the warlock, which also grants invocations, more blast options and the scout's HiPS/camo/movement abilities can be replaced by being invisible and flying.

Scout is OK for flavour, or a dip to get the improved skirmish feat, but straight warlock would likely do just as well if not better.

[Tokiko Mima]

hideos blow says you make a Melee attack with it. The fire whip ability of the pyro PRC says it counts as a whip for all related feets but you make a ranged touch attack.

Does it penetrate armor better than a normal whip does? Because that's what makes the whip end up being a little useless.


yes i wasn't including items in the build mainly because i couldn't remember the name of the Item that added to eldritch blast dmg... like im sure theres oother feets and or items that help it.. or this build...

That's cool. Just don't forget them because they're absolutely vital to doing enough damage to make your evocation wizard buddy get that 'slack jawed with jealousy' look that's oh so vital to your warlock job satisfaction.


Also what level do you start taking dmg from hellfire... cuz if its the first then you could add in a levle of binder to negate that althoguh i think that would throw things off.

It's everytime you use Hellfire. But after being a Hellfire Glaivelock for a bit, I've found that the point of constitution drain isn't really much to make a fuss out of, even if your DM bans Strongheart Vest and Naberius binds. You'll want to carry a Rod of Bodily Restoration (MIC) and heal yourself whenever you get 4 or more points of damage. If you go really crazy on Meta-SLA Feat stacking like I do, enemies rarely survive long enough to make your Constitution score much of an issue. ~884 damage a round will do that to 'em.

[RagnaroksChosen]

"I must not worship the d6's.
d6's are the character optimization-killers.
d6's are the little-death that brings total obliteration to my effectiveness.
I will face my d6's obsession.
I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the d6's have gone there will be nothing.
Only my better character design will remain."

Likewise
"I must not worship the Hideous Blows.
Hideous Blows are the character optimization-killers.
Hideous Blows are the little-death that brings total obliteration to my effectiveness.
I will face my Hideous Blow misconceptions.
I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the Hideous Blows have gone there will be nothing.
Only my better character design will remain."

Because Hideous blow only goes off once per round and limits you to only one attack per round no matter your BAB, pounce etc.

Never be fooled by getting to roll lots of dice. Always consider the average damage per dice, in your case 4.5 for the d8 and 3.5 for all those d6's.

Also, there is no need for Hideous Blow as your combo can fly around, invisible, striking death from above. Skirmish works just fine on Ranged Attacks and should be so...using the Spear (250' range) an invisible flying warlock/scout.

Likewise, there is nothing a Pyrokineticist can do that straight warlock cannot do better with invocations. Fire bolt < Blast modified by type/shape. Firewalk<free fly. Nimbus is nice except the whole 1 min/once per day... the fire resistance does trump that granted by the warlock...but the warlock does get it and gets it in more than one energy type.

However,
Scout gives +1d6 per 2lvls...but so does the warlock, which also grants invocations, more blast options and the scout's HiPS/camo/movement abilities can be replaced by being invisible and flying.

Scout is OK for flavour, or a dip to get the improved skirmish feat, but straight warlock would likely do just as well if not better.

the whole idea was to uses the Pyro ability to deliver the skirmish dmg... then i thought becuase your moving and can only make one attack any ways ,adding in the warlock hideous blow would be nice...

The benifit being the fact that your getting an aditional 2d6 over what a normal warlock could do. And its a touch attack. Plus your moving so you also bennifit from the +2 ac for skirmish.
And you have some taste scout/warlock abilites.
But then again i can understand warlock/scout is nice... i just liked the pyro added in there.. because it though it made hideous blow worth taking..

Fire whip has a larger reach also then glaive.. and im not a huge fan of glave builds so i was thinking of this as a slight lesser melee warlock ish build...

also with the added level of Hellfire warlock i can technically add 2d6 ontop of the amount.



By the way Nice Dune referance i Loled

[tyckspoon]

Does it penetrate armor better than a normal whip does? Because that's what makes the whip end up being a little useless.


It's made of fire. So.. yes. It does all its damage as fire energy touch attacks. Armor has nothing to do with it; it's like wielding a Scorching Ray.

[Knaight]

Does it penetrate armor better than a normal whip does? Because that's what makes the whip end up being a little useless.

Seeing as its a ranged touch attack, yes.

[Tokiko Mima]

It's made of fire. So.. yes. It does all its damage as fire energy touch attacks. Armor has nothing to do with it; it's like wielding a Scorching Ray.

Woops.. Pyro's right in the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/prestigeClasses/pyrokineticist.htm). I should have looked it up rather than asking vague questions.

Yeah, now I dunno why not to dump Scout from the build; except for RP reasons there's no need to keep it. I thought it was needed as a pre-req or something. Would synergize well in a gestalt, though.

[RagnaroksChosen]

Woops.. Pyro's right in the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/prestigeClasses/pyrokineticist.htm). I should have looked it up rather than asking vague questions.

Yeah, now I dunno why not to dump Scout from the build; except for RP reasons there's no need to keep it. I thought it was needed as a pre-req or something. Would synergize well in a gestalt, though.

+4d6 dmg skirmish and the scout abilities... i guess realy i could take 3 levels of scout and take improved skirmish and make it +3d6 and add 2 levels of some thing else..

I want to keep the skirmish dmg

[Tokiko Mima]

+4d6 dmg skirmish and the scout abilities... i guess realy i could take 3 levels of scout and take improved skirmish and make it +3d6 and add 2 levels of some thing else..

I want to keep the skirmish dmg

Well, you have skirmish and a melee attack.. those two are tough to synergize and skirmish doesn't advance as quickly as sneak attack, eldritch blast or sudden strike do. One of the things that warlocks do well is attacking in melee and switching to range or vice versa. The Fire Lash locks the warlock to melee, and Hideous Blow prevents him from being able to take advantage of a full-attack... that's a tough build to do well.

You have to pick an emphasis, either Scout or Warlock. Scout would give you more scout abilities and movement, Warlock would yield more consistant and greater damage. In the end, I'm afraid you'll likely be mechanically inferior to a warlock that optimizes both melee and ranged damage. But as long as your character is fun, what does that matter, huh?

[RagnaroksChosen]

Well, you have skirmish and a melee attack.. those two are tough to synergize and skirmish doesn't advance as quickly as sneak attack, eldritch blast or sudden strike do. One of the things that warlocks do well is attacking in melee and switching to range or vice versa. The Fire Lash locks the warlock to melee, and Hideous Blow prevents him from being able to take advantage of a full-attack... that's a tough build to do well.

You have to pick an emphasis, either Scout or Warlock. Scout would give you more scout abilities and movement, Warlock would yield more consistant and greater damage. In the end, I'm afraid you'll likely be mechanically inferior to a warlock that optimizes both melee and ranged damage. But as long as your character is fun, what does that matter, huh?

I think scouts skirmish is better then a rogues because its less situational.. thats the only reason why i would keep it.. the skirmish +hidous blow seem to synergise well for me because i move and get my extra dmg from skirmish + hideous blow. The fire whip adds 15 foot reach and a touch attack.. plus thematicaly its cool.

[Benejeseret]

Just to put it into perspective, I will spoiler another build built on the Flame Lash. It is a cool ability and I understand the draw.



Race:Strongheart Halfling

Lvl1:Barbarian (Ape Totem/Berserker Str) - Wild Talent, Reckless Rage
Lvl2:Barbarian
Lvl3:Barbarian - Intimidating Rage, Power Attack
Lvl4:Barbarian - +1 Dex
Lvl5:Barbarian - Climb at full speed
Lvl6:Pyrokineticist - Cleave, Flame Whip
Lvl7:Barbarian
Lvl8:Barbarian - DR1/-, +1 Dex
Lvl9:Barbarian - Destructive Rage
Lvl10:Frenzied Berserker - Frenzy, Diehard
Lvl11:Frenzied Berserker - Supreme Cleave
Lvl12:Frenzied Berserker - Weapon Focus (Whip/Flame Whip), Frenzy 2/day, +1 Dex
Lvl13:Exotic Weapon Master (Uncanny Blow)
Lvl14:Frenzied Berserker - Deathless Frenzy
Lvl15:Frenzied Berserker - Great Cleave, Frenzy 3/day, impr. Pr. Att
Lvl16:Frenzied Berserker - Inspire Frenzy, +1 Dex
Lvl17:Frenzied Berserker - Frenzy 4/day
Lvl18:Frenzied Berserker - Leap Attack, Greater Frenzy
Lvl19:Frenzied Berserker - Frenzy 5/day
Lvl20:Frenzied Berserker - Timeless Frenzy, Supreme Pr. Att, +Str Dex


BAB:+18/+13/+8/+3 or +18/+18/+13/+8/+3

Damage is 1d8+(Strx2)+(Power Attackx8 on a leaping charge)

So given that you only need touch attack to hit at all times - pumping up that power attack is no problem at all. Starting with Max Dex

Average Damage = 188.5 on a charge and you have at least +11 left to hit those puny Touch Attack AC (better with magic +Dex gear, etc)

So charge in, kill, great cleave within 20' (with the supr cleave 5' step) - repeat, repeat, repeat until you fail to make a Touch Attack AC or 188 damage fails to autokill.

Then your party members pray you manage to make that will save...

[OneFamiliarFace]

If you like the idea, then I'd consider playing the warlock, finding a way to modify your blast into fire damage, and just flavor your Eldritch blast as you using a whip of darkfire. It's a long whip, but I've seen worse in Anime.

Follow it up by flavoring any of your powers as fire. Instead of a cloak of shadows, you have a walk of flames. If you teleport, then you disappear in a burst of flame.

That way you get to keep all the great Warlock incantations and the flavor of your build idea.

[RagnaroksChosen]

If you like the idea, then I'd consider playing the warlock, finding a way to modify your blast into fire damage, and just flavor your Eldritch blast as you using a whip of darkfire. It's a long whip, but I've seen worse in Anime.

Follow it up by flavoring any of your powers as fire. Instead of a cloak of shadows, you have a walk of flames. If you teleport, then you disappear in a burst of flame.

That way you get to keep all the great Warlock incantations and the flavor of your build idea.


seee the problem with that is it is too anime and doesn't have the feel i like.. i was just wondering if people could help improve on the idea or how to get me more dmg...
I love the Pyro and Cryo PrC's there realy cool... one day i plan on making a build that uses both...
if i realy wanted a fire based warlock i would play a dragon fire adept.

[Person_Man]

Examples of how damage scales in 3.5 D&D:

Eldritch Blast: +3.5 ever other level (can include Invocations)
Skirmish: +3.5 per attack every fourth level
Power Attack: +1 per BAB per attack (can be multiplied)
Sneak Attack: +3.5 per attack every other level
Sudden Strike: +3.5 per attack every other level
2 handed Power Attack: +2 per BAB per attack (can be multiplied)
Spells: 3.5 every level (can be altered by metamagic, many other effects)
Leap Attack: +4 per BAB per attack (can be multiplied)

Now obviously all of this can be modified by feats, class abilities, etc. So there are exceptions to everything. But as you can see, although their attacks can include special effects Warlocks are generally at the bottom of the damage scale. Adding Scout to it is a very poor way to increase your damage. Mixing in Scout to any build is usually a bad idea, as there are almost always easier ways to add more damage and abilities, even if you're just using core. And I say that as someone who loves the Scout. It's just a cruddy thing to multiclass with in most cases (unless you're a Swift Hunter).

I'd also mention that there's no reason for someone with UMD to dip into Pyrokineticist, as you have access to Wands of Flame Blade (core) or Fire Dagger or Wraithstrike or Spectral Weapon (Spell Compendium).

Anywho, none of this matters if your group doesn't optimize well. If everyone is on the low end of the power scale, then I suggest you use whatever combos you find fun.

[RagnaroksChosen]

Examples of how damage scales in 3.5 D&D:

Eldritch Blast: +3.5 ever other level (can include Invocations)
Skirmish: +3.5 per attack every fourth level
Power Attack: +1 per BAB per attack (can be multiplied)
Sneak Attack: +3.5 per attack every other level
Sudden Strike: +3.5 per attack every other level
2 handed Power Attack: +2 per BAB per attack (can be multiplied)
Spells: 3.5 every level (can be altered by metamagic, many other effects)
Leap Attack: +4 per BAB per attack (can be multiplied)

Now obviously all of this can be modified by feats, class abilities, etc. So there are exceptions to everything. But as you can see, although their attacks can include special effects Warlocks are generally at the bottom of the damage scale. Adding Scout to it is a very poor way to increase your damage. Mixing in Scout to any build is usually a bad idea, as there are almost always easier ways to add more damage and abilities, even if you're just using core. And I say that as someone who loves the Scout. It's just a cruddy thing to multiclass with in most cases (unless you're a Swift Hunter).

I'd also mention that there's no reason for someone with UMD to dip into Pyrokineticist, as you have access to Wands of Flame Blade (core) or Fire Dagger or Wraithstrike or Spectral Weapon (Spell Compendium).

Anywho, none of this matters if your group doesn't optimize well. If everyone is on the low end of the power scale, then I suggest you use whatever combos you find fun.

So then going by your chart...
Would not dipping 3 in scout and taking the feet improved skirmish out do dipping in rogue becuase in three levels it has 3d6 dmg.. vs the rogues 2d6

i mean even at 5th level with the feet I'm beating the rogue.. I know that the only reason why I'm beating the rogue is with a feet but...

the only thing that can beet me out is spells (again according to your chart)

Edit: Plus flame blad kinda sucks and its a druid spell.

[Burley]

Just: Why? Hideous Blow is hideous and it blows. That's the end of this story. It wasn't even a story. It was like a limmerick, but the last line didn't rhyme correctly, so, it sounded good at first until you thought about it for a second and said, "Wait...That's not right."

Everything in that 'build' could be better with Eldritch Glaive. End o' Story. And, this is a real story. A good one. Like, that funny one that people ask you to tell at parties, and you're like, "No, no. It's not that good, anyways," and they're like, "Fine, I'll tell it. So, there Burley was, trying to get the fish hook out of the cantelope..." and you jump in and say, "No, it was a watermelon. Shut up, you don't know. Anyways, I'm trying to get this hook out of the watermelon, right?"

Also, even if Hideous Blow was worth a hoot, no sane DM would let you use it with Pyrokineticist. Why? Because the fluff on the abilities don't mesh. Also, you get pretty much the same damage output from Eldritch Glaive and Brimstone Blast. And, Brimstone Blast causes ongoing damage. And, you don't have to take dips into a cool but mechanically unsound PrC. And, you don't have to waste a feat to get a single power point to get into that PrC.

As much as I hate to say it, just go Hellfire Lamelock and be done with it.

[RagnaroksChosen]

Just: Why? Hideous Blow is hideous and it blows. That's the end of this story. It wasn't even a story. It was like a limmerick, but the last line didn't rhyme correctly, so, it sounded good at first until you thought about it for a second and said, "Wait...That's not right."

Everything in that 'build' could be better with Eldritch Glaive. End o' Story. And, this is a real story. A good one. Like, that funny one that people ask you to tell at parties, and you're like, "No, no. It's not that good, anyways," and they're like, "Fine, I'll tell it. So, there Burley was, trying to get the fish hook out of the cantelope..." and you jump in and say, "No, it was a watermelon. Shut up, you don't know. Anyways, I'm trying to get this hook out of the watermelon, right?"

Also, even if Hideous Blow was worth a hoot, no sane DM would let you use it with Pyrokineticist. Why? Because the fluff on the abilities don't mesh. Also, you get pretty much the same damage output from Eldritch Glaive and Brimstone Blast. And, Brimstone Blast causes ongoing damage. And, you don't have to take dips into a cool but mechanically unsound PrC. And, you don't have to waste a feat to get a single power point to get into that PrC.

As much as I hate to say it, just go Hellfire Lamelock and be done with it.

fair enough sir...

Why doesn't the fluff fit well? all hidous blow is fluff whise is channeling an attack into a melee weapon. Its the same thing like pyro with power attack it works and you can make it fluffy... I understand that glaives are better. i know there alot better... I think that people are at the point with hidous blow that even if there was a use for it people wouldn't accept it. the only way i can hideous blow being better then glave is for an attack with a melee weapon that you can get iterations on. as such scout where unless you go pounce and make a charger build.. your not getting multiple iterations on. I figure if you stack it in suck a way you can make a just as powerfull or more so. I meen im just looking at the dice of dmg and comparing it to the other classes at lvl 20 i know adding in other prcs changes things a bit.. Even adding hellfire Prc to this build will increase the dmg buy alot. i just wanted to try to find something that was effective and yet not the same old story you here at every party.

[Tokiko Mima]

As much as I hate to say it, just go Hellfire Lamelock and be done with it.

What's so lame about Hellfire Warlock and/or Eldritch Glaive? It's literally the best PrC out there for Warlocks who want to blast. It's requirements aren't even a stretch for a straight warlock. It's not the only way to play warlock of course, but it's perfectly valid and mechanically sound if you want to focus on the damage dealing side of Warlocks.

The same goes for Eldritch Glaive: It's a fantastic option for making sure a warlock is a threat in almost any situation and gives an incentive for others to keep out of a warlock's melee range.

Is it the fluff that bothers you? Because I always refluff my Hellfire Warlocks.

[Frosty]

With what? Pelor's Heavenly Purifying Fires of Holyness?

[Burley]

I understand that you were trying to find a use, but there isn't one. I applaud it, and it'd viable and usable...just really weak. A 20th level character will be murdered so hard if this is all they can throw out. (Pyromancer is weak anyways because Fire Resistance is on practically everything by 20th level.)
You say that the only way HB would be better than EG is if used with a weapon that you'd get iterations on, but there aren't any. Ever. Why? Because HB is a 'standard action' and even some special weapon (that I don't think exists) would need a standard action to use. I can't think of anything at all that gives you iterative attacks with less that a Full-Attack, unless you pounce, and you can't Pounce with HB because charging is a full-round action, and doesn't give you the ability to invoke HB.
Basically, HB can not be used more than once a round, and is therefore only as good as the weapon you carry.

As for the mechanics of the Pyro-whip not working with HB: The Pyro-whip is a ranged touch attack. Ranged. HB requires a Melee weapon. I checked the SRDizzle, and, though it is likened to a whip, it does not count as a melee weapon. As a DM, I'd not allow it as written.
As for the fluff of the Pyro-whip not working with HB: HB is supposed to surround a weapon with energy. Fluff-wise, you're surrounding energy with energy. I'd think that's more of just...y'know...an Essence.


What's so lame about Hellfire Warlock and/or Eldritch Glaive? It's literally the best PrC out there for Warlocks who want to blast. It's requirements aren't even a stretch for a straight warlock. It's not the only way to play warlock of course, but it's perfectly valid and mechanically sound if you want to focus on the damage dealing side of Warlocks.

The same goes for Eldritch Glaive: It's a fantastic option for making sure a warlock is a threat in almost any situation and gives an incentive for others to keep out of a warlock's melee range.

Is it the fluff that bothers you? Because I always refluff my Hellfire Warlocks.

Eldritch Glaive, I've no problem with. None at all. I think that Eldritch Glaive is the only way to keep a warlock from falling behind in combat at mid-high levels.
However, I really hate the Hellfire Warlock. Mostly, yes, because of the fluff. I can't for the life of me think of a way to refluff it. Secondly, because the only way to make it worth a hoot (in my opinion) is to either spam Less'r-Rest'r wands, or to go dip into the Incarnum books. And, if you don't do that, you better hope you're taking that enemy down in one hit, because you just lost a few HP when you did it.
It is (in my opinion) a class that can only be fun to if you heavily optimize the character, and then (in my opinion) it stops being fun.

The Hellfire Warlock is, in my opinion, lame. I don't like it, I'd never play it, and if any of my players (none of whom play warlocks anyways) ever wanted to play one, I'd beg them to reconsider. Play the good aligned one from Complete Mage. That's what I say.

[RagnaroksChosen]

I understand that you were trying to find a use, but there isn't one. I applaud it, and it'd viable and usable...just really weak. A 20th level character will be murdered so hard if this is all they can throw out. (Pyromancer is weak anyways because Fire Resistance is on practically everything by 20th level.)
You say that the only way HB would be better than EG is if used with a weapon that you'd get iterations on, but there aren't any. Ever. Why? Because HB is a 'standard action' and even some special weapon (that I don't think exists) would need a standard action to use. I can't think of anything at all that gives you iterative attacks with less that a Full-Attack, unless you pounce, and you can't Pounce with HB because charging is a full-round action, and doesn't give you the ability to invoke HB.
Basically, HB can not be used more than once a round, and is therefore only as good as the weapon you carry.

As for the mechanics of the Pyro-whip not working with HB: The Pyro-whip is a ranged touch attack. Ranged. HB requires a Melee weapon. I checked the SRDizzle, and, though it is likened to a whip, it does not count as a melee weapon. As a DM, I'd not allow it as written.
As for the fluff of the Pyro-whip not working with HB: HB is supposed to surround a weapon with energy. Fluff-wise, you're surrounding energy with energy. I'd think that's more of just...y'know...an Essence.

ya i know thats why i figured combining the scout's skirmish becuase you can't attack multiple times and move... would be a great way to combine HB... you can move 30(as a medium creature) and use HB. so with the scouts skirmish i figured it would be better? but i guess i was wrong.


Really sir even though a normal Whip is a ranged touch attack and yet it is a 1 hander melee weapon... also as for the fluff i figured the two would inter twin as the fire whip is making the "structure" and the hb energy is intermingling with it... but thats just opinion. its just like if some one wanted to weapon afire there EG

[Tokiko Mima]

With what? Pelor's Heavenly Purifying Fires of Holyness?

Sure, why not? As long as it takes a portion of your life-force (constitution damage) to activate your extra superflame damage, what difference does it make if it's Hellfire, the Fires of Heaven, the Secret Flame, or the Universal Melting Force, etc?

The Hellfire Warlock PrC (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20061207a&page=3) itself doesn't have any alignment restrictions (It's just Warlock base class that's Chaotic or Evil) so you could be lawful good if you want, so long as long as you've got the required warlock levels already completed.

[monty]

Really sir even though a normal Whip is a ranged touch attack and yet it is a 1 hander melee weapon...

Normal whip is a melee attack. Not touch, not ranged.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm#tableWeapons

Note that the whip is listed under exotic 1-handed melee weapons, and there's no indication in the description that it would be a touch attack.

[Darrin]

So then going by your chart...
Would not dipping 3 in scout and taking the feet improved skirmish out do dipping in rogue becuase in three levels it has 3d6 dmg.. vs the rogues 2d6


If you can qualify for Improved Skirmish with only three levels of Scout, then yeah, you should totally pwn the Rogue.

(Improved Skirmish requires 2d6 skirmish and +1 AC, which requires at least 5 levels of Scout.)

In a straight-up comparison of a Scout + Improved Skirmish vs. Rogue, the Scout only beats the Rogue at ECL 6 (where the Scout picks up Improved Skirmish). They are essentially even from ECL 7 to ECL 10, but after that the Rogue pulls ahead in damage dice.

There is a way to keep pace with a Rogue, but it's a somewhat complicated build and requires both Swift Hunter and Improved Skirmish:

Scout 3/Ranger 1/Scout +1/Ranger +1/Dragon Devotee 4/Unseen Seer 4/Highland Stalker 2/Ranger +4.

This build lags behind the Rogue until ECL 5, where you can pick up Swift Hunter as the Scout's bonus feat. From there, you're about a level ahead until ECL 17 where the Rogue pulls up even.

[Tokiko Mima]

Normal whip is a melee attack. Not touch, not ranged.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm#tableWeapons

Note that the whip is listed under exotic 1-handed melee weapons, and there's no indication in the description that it would be a touch attack.

True!

But that is a bit of an oddity, isn't it? The whip doesn't penetrate armor or natural armor of more than +3 bonus, so logically it would have to make contact with the surface to do damage just like a touch attack. So maybe it *should* be a touch attack, but isn't per RAW. Or perhaps the whip is limited to damaging only people whose touch attack AC is their total AC. Or maybe I'm just overthinking this. :smallconfused:

[monty]

True!

But that is a bit of an oddity, isn't it? The whip doesn't penetrate armor or natural armor of more than +3 bonus, so logically it would have to make contact with the surface to do damage just like a touch attack. So maybe it *should* be a touch attack, but isn't per RAW. Or perhaps the whip is limited to damaging only people whose touch attack AC is their total AC. Or maybe I'm just overthinking this. :smallconfused:

Touch attack ignores armor. Whip fails if there's too much armor. Entirely different things. Either way, it still isn't ranged (reach != ranged).

[RagnaroksChosen]

Touch attack ignores armor. Whip fails if there's too much armor. Entirely different things. Either way, it still isn't ranged (reach != ranged).


my bad i thought normal whips where touch attacks eather way my point was that the pyro whip is a melee weapon and its a touch attack.

[Feralgeist]

hideous blow is alot like oral from an ugly person. Aptly named, there's nothing good about it, and it's a waste of 6 seconds. (30 if im drunk!)

Glaive wouldnt work with it, because that conjures a weapon of eldritch energy, rather than chanelling energy through the current weapon.


Thematically cool concept though.

[Burley]

my bad i thought normal whips where touch attacks eather way my point was that the pyro whip is a melee weapon and its a touch attack.

Yes, and just to clear the air: The Pyro-whip is not a melee weapon. It is a ranged touched attack, not a reach touch attack. The pyro Whip wouldn't work.

However! You could play a full warlock, use Hidious Blow and Brimstone Blast while wielding a normal whip (or a dagger whip, if you actually want weapon damage). You'd get practically the same thematic effect. The numbers would crunch to less damage than your build, but your build wouldn't work by RAW, so, it doesn't matter.

Okay. I'd like to end my post with this note: Ragnarok, this is, thematically, an awesome idea. I think it would be super fun to play a character along these lines. I'm sorry the mechanics don't flesh out, but maybe the Whip Dagger+HB+Brimstone Blast thing will work for you, if you're trying to play this as a character. Didn't mean to sound insulting if I ever did. I just know my warlocks, and get pretty emotional about them.:smalltongue:

[RagnaroksChosen]

Yes, and just to clear the air: The Pyro-whip is not a melee weapon. It is a ranged touched attack, not a reach touch attack. The pyro Whip wouldn't work.

However! You could play a full warlock, use Hidious Blow and Brimstone Blast while wielding a normal whip (or a dagger whip, if you actually want weapon damage). You'd get practically the same thematic effect. The numbers would crunch to less damage than your build, but your build wouldn't work by RAW, so, it doesn't matter.

Okay. I'd like to end my post with this note: Ragnarok, this is, thematically, an awesome idea. I think it would be super fun to play a character along these lines. I'm sorry the mechanics don't flesh out, but maybe the Whip Dagger+HB+Brimstone Blast thing will work for you, if you're trying to play this as a character. Didn't mean to sound insulting if I ever did. I just know my warlocks, and get pretty emotional about them.:smalltongue:

D20 SRD
"A pyrokineticist gains the ability to fashion a 15-foot-long whip of fire from unstable ectoplasm as a move-equivalent action. She takes no damage from a fire lash she creates, and if she releases her hold, it immediately dissipates. The lash deals 1d8 points of fire damage to a target within 15 feet on a successful ranged touch attack. A pyro can take Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization (if she otherwise meets the prerequisites) in conjunction with the fire lash,as well as any feats that apply to the use of a standard whip. The whip remains in existence as long as the pyrokineticist holds it."

i figured thats what made it act like a normal whip. but thats fine.. its all good thanks though for the help guys. Wish it did work cuz it would be fun to play.

[Person_Man]

So then going by your chart...
Would not dipping 3 in scout and taking the feet improved skirmish out do dipping in rogue becuase in three levels it has 3d6 dmg.. vs the rogues 2d6

As Darrin pointed out, you need to be Scout 5 to qualify for Improved Skirmish. 5 class levels and 1 feat for 14 extra average isn't very impressive. Also keep in mind that its Precision damage, so many enemies are immune. And you need to Move in order to qualify for Skirmish, which generally means that you have to use your Move action every turn (forgoing a Full Attack action) or invest further feats or gp in a workaround.

But I think that you may be missing my overall point.

Magic is vastly powerful. It scales better then anything else in D&D, includes every possible effect, and can be further improved by metamagic.

Static bonuses to damage such as Power Attack and Leap Attack scale well, are easy to qualify for, apply to all enemies, and can be multiplied by various effects - Spirited Charge, Battle Jump, Headlong Rush, Rhino's Rush, Cavalier, bracing for a charge, critical hits, etc.

Precision damage scales slower then either of these. You have to spend effort qualifying for them (flanking, denied Dex, movement). Some enemies are immune (or you have to invest in workarounds). And bonus dice of damage are never multiplied.

So, if your build goal is to play a Skill Monkey and/or a Warlock, that's great. I've always loved them. And trust me, I know (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=88633) how (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=66915) to (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3898866&postcount=21) optimize (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=816095) them (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3634895&postcount=10).

But if your build goal is to add extra damage, taking levels of a Skill Monkey class or Warlock is generally a poor option. It's good for other reasons. It's just not a great idea if you want extra damage output.



Edit: Plus flame blad kinda sucks and its a druid spell.

Flame Blade (along with several other methods) gives you touch attacks on every attack. This vastly improves your chance of hitting. Anyone can get access to it with the Use Magic Device Skill. And for someone who already has UMD, its a lower investment then dipping a level into Pyrokineticist.