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Fawsto
2008-08-27, 03:37 PM
Sup, guys, long time no threads. How are you doing?


Well, see I am currently DMing a gestalt campaing and I am in love with the idea of making the character of my liking without having to pay with multiclass for it. So, in a near future, I will expect to play, rather than DM, a gestalt game. So I was wondering, what would be the best combination to go with Paladin, since we are not using ToB.

I thought Paladin // Fighter, but I saw too many useless feats... I went Palain // Knight, and I saw a powerful mounted tank... Nice, but not very versatile. I tryed Paladin // Cleric, but them I got too much MADness (being WIS necessary). So I went Paladin // Sorcerer. Hmmm... Nice, blasting/save or suck spells together with a d10 hp dice and a full BAB + some class features? Hmmm sounds good... But them I got hit by arcane spell failure... I thought I was lost... But them I had a vision: From the Complete Arcane the solution to my problem appeared, the Warmage!

So, not going too optimized (otherwise I would not be going Paladin), would this be a decent combination? And, without cheesing a lot and optimizating too much, what should I do to keep this guy going?

Thank ya,


Fawsto

CASTLEMIKE
2008-08-27, 03:43 PM
What about Favored Soul with a 3 to 5 level dip into Prestige Paladin since it would only lose 1 or 2 levels of spellcasting at L20 while providing most Paladin class benefits and retain level 9 divine spellcasting? Need to take Sacred Exorcist or a level of Cleric to qualify for Prestige Paladin Turning requirment.
Cloistered Cleric -1, FS-16, Prestige Paladin -3//Stalwart Battle Sorcerer -20

Additonal PRCs to taste. If that is to cheesey take more Prestige Paladin levels.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/prestigiousCharacterClasses.htm#prestigePaladin

Some Wisdom madness which can be mostly countered with +6 Periapt of Wisdom and lots more spellcasting for Buffs and Healing and Miracles (Spell Duplication mostly) so DCs won't need to be high usually.

Consider the Stalwart Battle Sorcerer Variant instead of Warmage it has No ASF in light armor the extra +2 Hit Points in non PRC levels and mithril drops armor a category.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#sorcererVariantBattleS orcerer

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-08-27, 03:44 PM
Paliden/Druid/the prc that lets your AC and Mount stack. Druids have nothing better to put stats into than cha and wis anyways, so why not?

AmberVael
2008-08-27, 03:51 PM
Paliden/Druid/the prc that lets your AC and Mount stack. Druids have nothing better to put stats into than cha and wis anyways, so why not?

Because the alignment requirements will certainly mess something up?

Ascension
2008-08-27, 03:52 PM
Paladin//Crusader, perhaps?

I'm a paladin and an almost paladin at the same time! Whee!

Kidding, kidding.

If I personally were doing a gestalt paladin I'd go paladin//rogue, then take one side into Shadowbane Inquisitor and the other into... probably scout, with swift ambusher. Smiting/Sneak Attacking/Skirmishing, all in one blow.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-08-27, 03:52 PM
Because the alignment requirements will certainly mess something up?Eh, I forgot about those. So pointless.

Paladin//Bard?

Frosty
2008-08-27, 04:14 PM
Paladin/Ranger/Beastmaster/Uber_mount Prc?

Chronos
2008-08-27, 04:20 PM
The question to always ask with gestalt is, how do you plan to use your actions? With a paladin/warmage, your options are basically hit things with a piece of metal, or blast them with magical energy. Under which circumstances would you do each?

A more useful combination, if you want to play paladin on one side, would be something that could be used for either long-duration or swift-casting buffs. That way, your standard actions can always be used for the sharp piece of metal you're carrying, but you're still getting use out of your other side. Alternately, you could use something which gives continual benefits that you don't need to activate at all.

Fawsto
2008-08-27, 09:34 PM
Hmmm... Well I could go duskblade too, there would be no problem (except fluff o.O). But see, I want something not cheesy and enjoiable at every level. I don't want ubber charging mounts o'doom or similars. I want something solid enough to get me some fun while not overshadowing others.

Paladin // Crusader was my first tought, but we are not using ToB (very sad).

I am placing the idea among my fellow players that Paladin's allignment requirements should be only 'Good', and not 'Lawful Good'. So I could really use the Druid stuff. But, ohh there is always a but: We, due to brokeness, divided the druid between the "spellcasting druid" and the "animal form druid". I don't think this is a problem, since the animal companion comes with both "druids" but, well, this should be noticed.

About hitting, hitting even harder and hitting even harder with magic, I feel fine with this. There is fist of stone at level 1, wich gives you a fine +6 to str for about 1min/level. Ok, bull's strenght is more durable, but I am fine with this during one battle. There is true strike... Dude, I dream in delivering a true striked full power attacked two handed smite evil with a greatsword, while charging smite. Some levels above we have the good and old desintegrate. The warmage lacks the buffs we all appreciate, I admit, but he is fun to play.

If you have a got a better Paladin // X combination that can give me the feel of an armored spellcaster that delivers holy punishment, I would really like hearing (ermm, seriously, this is no sarcasm, I really want to know).

Also, I need some feat progression that will allow me to blast things (or fight things) that have a big spell resistance. It will be even better if it has some of those divine feats together with it, just because I love 'em.


Thanks


Fawsto

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-08-27, 09:40 PM
Favored Soul works for Cha synergy, as does Healer, or Warlock. I support Bard, or Sorcerer, with the Battle Sorcerer variant that lets you cast in light armor and the feat to up that to medium. With any of those, take mostly self buffs, preferably swift actions, and use them to Gish.

Chronos
2008-08-27, 09:51 PM
But see, I want something not cheesy and enjoiable at every level. I don't want ubber charging mounts o'doom or similars. I want something solid enough to get me some fun while not overshadowing others.What I said about the actions applies to both optimization and fun. If you have two sides of your build which compete for actions, then you're eventually going to come to the conclusion that one of them is more useful than the other, and use that one almost all the time. At that point, you're going to be asking yourself "Hey, why did I ever take Class Y in the first place? I never use any of its abilities.".

CASTLEMIKE
2008-08-27, 10:16 PM
Also, I need some feat progression that will allow me to blast things (or fight things) that have a big spell resistance. It will be even better if it has some of those divine feats together with it, just because I love 'em.


Spelllfire Wielder Feat from Magic of Faerun.

Proven_Paradox
2008-08-27, 10:19 PM
Lemme put another suggestion in for Paladin//Favored Soul. The charisma synergy is awesome. Your saves will be sky high, since FS gets all good saves. You can use your spells for buffs, both long and short term. Thanks to Magic Vestment and Greater Magic Weapon, you can save money on equipment by just casting those instead. You can either use the extra money to buy other items (metamagic rods maybe) or perhaps make your armor +1 heavy fort instead of just +5, that sort of thing. Lots of good self-buffs, and lots of buffs for the rest of your party. Favored soul also gets class features other than spellcasting--they're not terribly STRONG features, but they're incentive to stick with the class. This leaves you free to PrC the hell out of your paladin side, since it doesn't have much going for it past level 6 (unless you're using a re-write of some sort). If you can swing Exalted, look into Fist of Raziel from the Book of Exalted Cheese Deeds.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2008-08-27, 10:19 PM
I'd probably go Paladin 20 next to Sorcerer 4/ Spellsword 1/ Abjurant Champion 1/ Arcane Duelist (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20030224a) 4/ Abjurant Champion 4/ Spellsword 6, or something similar. Use the Charging Smite variant from PHB2 for Paladin, and the Metamagic Specialist variant from PHB2 for Sorcerer.

Focus your Sorcerer spells on melee buffs and Gish-type spells like Bladeweave and Whirlding Blade, but you may not even need Wraithstrike since you can use two-handed Power Attack with Dexterous Attack for free damage or attack bonus. Be sure to get Practiced Spellcaster for both Sorcerer and Paladin, since your Paladin CL will otherwise be only half your class level. Take Power Attack, Leap Attack, and Arcane Strike, and get at least one Lesser Metamagic Rod of Extend and maybe a few 1st level Pearls of Power for Rhino's Rush.

Always cast Swift spells Extended, and note that the increased casting time for spontaneously cast spells does not apply to spells with a casting time of a Swift Action. Cast Rhino's Rush and charge in with Power Attack, Leap Attack, Dexterous Attack, Arcane Strike, and Smite Evil with Charging Smite. Hopefully you'll be able to Cleave through another opponent since you're sure to kill the initial target in one hit. Use Power Attack, Dexterous Attack, and Arcane Strike with Whirling Blade as well for some powerful area-effect damage.

Kristoss
2008-08-27, 10:28 PM
Sorcerer levels can work in armor.

Take long duration spells (to cast just before donning armor). If you must cast a certain spell in the middle of the day use full action to use still spell. Finally use Arcane strike from complete warrior to use the spell slots from sorcerer on mellee attacks.
With sorcerer you get a more versatile spell list then warmage and some nice buff spells.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-08-27, 10:37 PM
Rogue 1/Scout 3/Rogue 16(Swift Ambusher)//Catfolk Lion Totem Barbarian 1/Charging Smite Paladin 5/Grey Guard 10/PrC 3. Note that any and all of that is changeable, but I love Paladin/Rogue multiclasses, the Swift Ambusher Feat, and Catfolk, so do with that as you will.

BobVosh
2008-08-28, 02:02 AM
Because the alignment requirements will certainly mess something up?


Eh, I forgot about those. So pointless.

Paladin//Bard?

Bards can't be lawful. 2 for 2! I personally don't understand some of these alignment restrictions though...

Paladin//Duskblade has my vote for some reason. I just think it would be neat. Not so much blast, but more buffery for melee with casting.

CASTLEMIKE
2008-08-28, 02:05 AM
Always some of the Variant Alignment Paladins for a few more options:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#paladinVariantsFreedom SlaughterAndTyranny

ocato
2008-08-28, 02:43 AM
Maybe Sorcerer//Monk would work. You'd effectively be a monk with true strike, mage armor, shocking grasp, chill touch (which gives you X uses per level, so add 1d6 negative energy damage and a chance at 1 strength damage per punch for like, 10 punches and flurry like a crazy man!), etc etc at low levels, and also a sorcerer who can deflect blows with his mighty kung-fu skills. There's a feat called Ascetic Mage that let's you use Charisma for blocking instead of wisdom, but that might break the almighty laws of gestalt. Grab arcane strike and at higher levels you'll be delivering epic touch attack/punches on foes you nerfed into pudding with ray of enfeeblement, hold person, or whatever else floats your boat. Or, you can nerf them by shivering touch punching them. Grab a metamagic rod or the quicken spell feat (and consider the PHB2 variant that swaps a familiar for quick metamagic) and you can be slapping folk with irresistable dance or touch of idiocy so hard that monk seems like it deserves an apology for the insults it's received. Buffs like Heroism, haste, fly, and stoneskin will probably make up for a lot of the weaknesses of the monk compared to the paladin or another smasher as well.

Just a (garbled) thought.


EDIT: If your DM will let noninitiator ToB stuff (ie, not pertaining to maneuvers and whatnot), you can do just as well as a Paladin with Improved Unarmed Strike, Superior Unarmed Strike, and Snap Kick//Battle Sorcerer. I went monk instinctively because of the synergy of not needing armor, but I realize it's a really unpopular choice. This set up puts you in armor, gives you a sword/power attack option, and let's you finish off your standard attack/full attack with an unarmed strike (with a touch attack charged to it). Power Attack of doom coupled with a swift kick of contagion or bestow curse or something? Sounds like an optimized Miko.

Vonriel
2008-08-28, 02:56 AM
*snip*

Ladies and gentlemen, this is Chewbacca. Chewbacca is a Wookiee from the planet Kashyyyk. But Chewbacca lives on the planet Endor. Now think about it; that does not make sense!
Edit: Aww, you had to go and edit to make the Chewbacca defense meaningless. :smallfrown::smalltongue:


Anyway, I'm a fan of the "Paladin//Sorcerer where you pick up the Battle Sorcerer ACF, then pick up the Battle Caster feat from Complete Arcane". Think //Warmage but with more/better spells. :smalltongue:

Tempest Fennac
2008-08-28, 02:56 AM
http://www.crystalkeep.com/d20/rules/DnD3.5Index-Classes-Base.pdf contains several neutral Paladin variants if you wanted to make a Druid/Paladin cross.

only1doug
2008-08-28, 05:03 AM
Sup, guys, long time no threads. How are you doing?


Well, see I am currently DMing a gestalt campaing and I am in love with the idea of making the character of my liking without having to pay with multiclass for it. So, in a near future, I will expect to play, rather than DM, a gestalt game. So I was wondering, what would be the best combination to go with Paladin, since we are not using ToB.

I thought Paladin // Fighter, but I saw too many useless feats... I went Palain // Knight, and I saw a powerful mounted tank... Nice, but not very versatile. I tryed Paladin // Cleric, but them I got too much MADness (being WIS necessary). So I went Paladin // Sorcerer. Hmmm... Nice, blasting/save or suck spells together with a d10 hp dice and a full BAB + some class features? Hmmm sounds good... But them I got hit by arcane spell failure... I thought I was lost... But them I had a vision: From the Complete Arcane the solution to my problem appeared, the Warmage!

So, not going too optimized (otherwise I would not be going Paladin), would this be a decent combination? And, without cheesing a lot and optimizating too much, what should I do to keep this guy going?

Thank ya,


Fawsto

Do you have access to dragon Magic?

Draconic alternative class feature: Dragonscale Husk: Requires: Heavy Armour Proficiency. Lose all armour proficiencys to gain a dragonscale Husk, Counts as medium armour, has no listed spell failure % (because its not armour, its your body) AC bonus scales as you level (in class granting amour proficiency) and grants DR Vs Fire, Acid, Electricity and Cold (again scaling by level in class).

Pally // Sorcerer with Dragonscale Husk FTW

Benefits: free armour!, no spellcasting penalty.
Drawbacks: Not as good as fully enchanted full plate, requires dragonblood subtype (can be bought with a feat by any race of sorcerer) and alternate feature MUST be taken with first level of class granting armour.
All PRC's should be done with sorcerer side of Gestalt as armour progression will fall behind in PRC's that don't grant Heavy Armour Proficiency. (but sorcerer side is definately the better side to PRC anyway)

xelliea
2008-08-28, 06:04 AM
mmmmmmmmmmmmmmm..... paladin/samurai?

Dhavaer
2008-08-28, 06:58 AM
Bards can't be lawful.

Bard/Paladins may be Lawful Good with the Devoted Performer feat.

ShneekeyTheLost
2008-08-28, 07:16 PM
You concept with Paladin//Warmage is good, but ultimately Warmage just doesn't have it, and it is irrelevant that it has high BAB since you already have full BAB with Pal, and it is irrelevant that it has a higher HD because again, Paladin does too. So really, you're sacrificing flexability for... nothing.

Here's some suggestions:

Paladin//Warlock. If you're wanting all-day blasting and use, this is the way to go. Good Cha synergy here, and probably more useful with their unlimited uses of fairly good abilities than a Warmage ever thought of being.

Paladin//Sorcerer/War Weaver/Incantatrix. Metamagic'd-to-heck group buffs FTW. Ultimate in party support, and 'Mr. NO'. It is not likely that he will ever fail a save, he has enough utility to counter any 'no save, just suck', and Persisted Foresight to ensure he hits a win button on every encounter.

Alternately, replace Paladin with Crusader to make any build 100% cooler and 500% more powerful.

Thrym
2008-08-28, 07:41 PM
If stuff from dragon magazine is allowed, I'd suggest going Paladin // Cleric and taking the 'Serenity' feat from 306, which pretty much turns all Charisma based paladin abilities Wisdom based (...even Turn Undead).

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-08-28, 07:44 PM
If stuff from dragon magazine is allowed, I'd suggest going Paladin // Cleric and taking the 'Serenity' feat from 306, which pretty much turns all Charisma based paladin abilities Wisdom based (...even Turn Undead).Paladin//Druid, with a 1-level dip in Beastmaster, and combining the AC/mount. He's said already he's trying to get NG paladins approved, and the idea of a paragon of light and good charging into battle as a dinosaur riding a bear and hurling magic is just too cool to me.

Rei_Jin
2008-08-28, 07:59 PM
A nice combination for a Gestalt Paladin could be...

Paladin20//Warmage10/Rainbow Servant10

Full access to Clerical Spellcasting, as well as blasty fun, as well as 20 levels of Paladin.

WotC have ruled that when Rainbow Servant gains the level 10 ability to add the clerical spell list to the class spell list, it means that a beguiler or warmage gains the ability to cast them all spontaneously, as per the normal beguiler or warmage spells.

Can we say ouch?

Sure, you lose 4 levels of spellcaster to do it, but you're focusing more on being a Paladin than anything else, so this isn't a big concern, and for caster level checks and such you just pick up Practiced Spellcaster.

Level 8 Warmage Spells, Level 8 Clerical Spells, a full BAB, the ability to fly with magical wings, etc.

Fun fun fun!

Tar Palantir
2008-08-28, 08:01 PM
Also, a possibility for paladin//sorcerer is to go dragonblood (spellscale has a Charisma bonus, which is nice) to take still spell, practical metamagic, and accelerate metamagic to still all spells with no penalty, thus giving you effective buffs in any armor at the cost of 3 feats. If you really need the combat feats for the paly side, dip a few levels of fighter for bonus feats. Incidentally, this reminds me of a campaign I played in where everyone was half fighter. We had a fighter/sorcerer, a fighter/barbarian, a fighter/paladin, and a fighter/cleric. And people say 3.5 allows for customization :smallwink:

Edea
2008-08-28, 08:50 PM
Paladin 1 | Cleric 1
Paladin 2 | Cleric 2
Paladin 3 | Cleric 3
Paladin 4 | Cleric 4
Paladin 5 | Cleric 5
Ordained Champion 1 | Cleric 6
Ordained Champion 2 | Fighter 1
Ordained Champion 3 | Fighter 2
Ordained Champion 4 | Cleric 7
Ordained Champion 5 | Marshal 1
Gray Guard 1 | Cleric 8
Gray Guard 2 | Psychic Warrior 1
Gray Guard 3 | Cleric 9
Gray Guard 4 | Psychic Warrior 2
Gray Guard 5 | Cleric 10
Gray Guard 6 | Monk 1
Gray Guard 7 | Cleric 11
Gray Guard 8 | Monk 2
Gray Guard 9 | Cleric 12
Gray Guard 10 | Marshal 2


Maybe something like that?

Mostly it just abuses the crap out of your turn attempts, but could still be moderately effective. Uses Wis and Cha quite a bit. Obviously if multiclassing penalties are in effect, you can't use this (then again, multiclassing penalties in general are IMO pretty asinine, let alone in Gestalt). Main thing missing is arcane spell slots to use for fueling gish feats. If you can, grab the Serenity feat ASAP.

ShneekeyTheLost
2008-08-28, 09:17 PM
A nice combination for a Gestalt Paladin could be...

Paladin20//Warmage10/Rainbow Servant10

Full access to Clerical Spellcasting, as well as blasty fun, as well as 20 levels of Paladin.

WotC have ruled that when Rainbow Servant gains the level 10 ability to add the clerical spell list to the class spell list, it means that a beguiler or warmage gains the ability to cast them all spontaneously, as per the normal beguiler or warmage spells.

Can we say ouch?

Sure, you lose 4 levels of spellcaster to do it, but you're focusing more on being a Paladin than anything else, so this isn't a big concern, and for caster level checks and such you just pick up Practiced Spellcaster.

Level 8 Warmage Spells, Level 8 Clerical Spells, a full BAB, the ability to fly with magical wings, etc.

Fun fun fun!

Beguiler would give a LOT more benefit than Warmage would in a build like that. With Beguiler, you get a lot of utility and battlefield control spells, far more useful than just blasty stuff, as well as a LOT of skill points so that you can double as skillmonkey. It also nets you a good Reflex save.

And, if ToB is allowed, Crusader is MUCH better, particularly late-game, than Paladin.

Rei_Jin
2008-08-28, 09:26 PM
Whilst you are correct, the original poster wanted a Paladin//Warmage Gestalt. Hence, that is what I provided.

Vonriel
2008-08-28, 09:29 PM
Not only that, but he has stated (in the opening post, no less) that ToB is not available.

Chronicled
2008-08-28, 09:32 PM
It also nets you a good Reflex save.

:smallconfused:

Since when do Beguilers get a good Reflex save?

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-08-28, 09:36 PM
:smallconfused:

Since when do Beguilers get a good Reflex save?Common misconception, like Beguiler's BAB.


You could go Wilder//Paladin. I know little-nothing about Psionics, but no ASF and Cha-based would seem to be a good mix.

ocato
2008-08-28, 09:42 PM
Psychic Warrior has a better list for what he wants and is Wisdom based (minorly grokking with his spell stat).

CASTLEMIKE
2008-08-29, 05:24 AM
Whilst you are correct, the original poster wanted a Paladin//Warmage Gestalt. Hence, that is what I provided.

Actually he had several concepts and preferred a Paladin//Sorcerer capable of spellcasting wearing armor without ASF.




So I was wondering, what would be the best combination to go with Paladin, since we are not using ToB.

I thought Paladin // Fighter, but I saw too many useless feats... I went Palain // Knight, and I saw a powerful mounted tank... Nice, but not very versatile. I tryed Paladin // Cleric, but them I got too much MADness (being WIS necessary). So I went Paladin // Sorcerer. Hmmm... Nice, blasting/save or suck spells together with a d10 hp dice and a full BAB + some class features? Hmmm sounds good... But them I got hit by arcane spell failure... I thought I was lost... But them I had a vision: From the Complete Arcane the solution to my problem appeared, the Warmage!

So, not going too optimized (otherwise I would not be going Paladin), would this be a decent combination? And, without cheesing a lot and optimizating too much, what should I do to keep this guy going?

Thank ya,


Fawsto

Eldariel
2008-08-29, 05:42 AM
I actually suggest a 2-level Monk-dip on the Paladin-side (2 for Evasion - Paladin really likes it with Cha to saves), picking Ascetic Mage and Ascetic Knight (latter isn't that necessary though - if you want to use a weapon, skip it) to pick up a nice AC without an armor and some bonuses to beats. Unfortunately the ability only works with Unarmed Strike (you could talk with your DM about that though), but if you feel like it, you could actually make a really solid Unarmed Paladin/Sorcerer this way.

Also, one-level dip in Pious Templar on Pally-side wouldn't hurt; Mettle + those saves would mean you'd never take any hit from any spell effects that allow a save, and with Charisma to AC along with Sorcerer-levels stacking with Monk for AC-bonus, you'd probably never be hit by Touch Attacks either. In other words, you'd be pretty well underway to "so holy you can't touch me" already. One more dip, this time in Cleric, picking up Pride-domain to reroll 1s on saves and you're good to go (the other domain could be literally anything).

Zid
2008-08-29, 06:47 AM
To original poster: May I suggest you look into the houly scourge Prc from complete mage. It is a holy spellcaster that gives you the ability to perform ranged smite and adds to the damage of you warmage spells against evil opponents. It is not über optimized though.

Fawsto
2008-08-29, 10:18 AM
Where can I find the Battle Sorcerer Variant?

If It cannot be provided, I will probably head to the Warmage with ecletic learning (although I have not yet taken a look on the effects of that choice). But lets keep trying Sorcerer a bit, since he has more versatility. I liked the Idea of selfbuffs ftw, and I can always get the classic boom and burst spells from wands and etc.

My Objective is, by the end, cast Arcane spells while using, at least, medium armor. Since I like the visual of it, I will be probably trying to use a shield (making it mythral latergame), if it gets too weakysh, I will get good and old greatsword and bash stuff with it (I can always cast arcane shield, durr). Arcane strike included, power attack included and, of course, divine might included.

A 8th level Paladin // Sorcerer with this and, say Str 16, Cha 16, would, in fair conditions expending a 3rd level spell and charging smiting, do something like this: 2d6 + 3d4 + 9 (2handed str) + 3 (divine might) + 6 (power attack) + 24 (smite evil), or a 2d6 + 3d4 + 42 at a + 16 to hit, without counting on True strike or weapon buffs. I could get more from leap attack, but I do not want cheese.

I can increase the buffing late game with FoR for the Paladin side and something like Spellsword for ignoring arcane spell failure and channeling spells like enervating ray or shivering touch trought the weapon.

What you think, is it solid? Remember, It must be solid, not uber.

CASTLEMIKE
2008-08-29, 10:25 AM
Where can I find the Battle Sorcerer Variant?


Second link in post #2 :smallsmile:

only1doug
2008-08-29, 10:47 AM
Where can I find the Battle Sorcerer Variant?

If It cannot be provided, I will probably head to the Warmage with ecletic learning (although I have not yet taken a look on the effects of that choice). But lets keep trying Sorcerer a bit, since he has more versatility. I liked the Idea of selfbuffs ftw, and I can always get the classic boom and burst spells from wands and etc.

My Objective is, by the end, cast Arcane spells while using, at least, medium armor. Since I like the visual of it, I will be probably trying to use a shield (making it mythral latergame), if it gets too weakysh, I will get good and old greatsword and bash stuff with it (I can always cast arcane shield, durr). Arcane strike included, power attack included and, of course, divine might included.

A 8th level Paladin // Sorcerer with this and, say Str 16, Cha 16, would, in fair conditions expending a 3rd level spell and charging smiting, do something like this: 2d6 + 3d4 + 9 (2handed str) + 3 (divine might) + 6 (power attack) + 24 (smite evil), or a 2d6 + 3d4 + 42 at a + 16 to hit, without counting on True strike or weapon buffs. I could get more from leap attack, but I do not want cheese.

I can increase the buffing late game with FoR for the Paladin side and something like Spellsword for ignoring arcane spell failure and channeling spells like enervating ray or shivering touch trought the weapon.

What you think, is it solid? Remember, It must be solid, not uber.

if you want to use a shield spell then Abjurant champion would be a reasonable prestige class on the sorcerer side, all standard action cast time abjuration spells become a swift action to cast, duration doubles on all abjuration spells, Abjuration spells that add a shield or amour bonus to your AC gain a enhancement bonus equal to your levels in Abjurant champion (its a 5 Level PRC) (Shield spell for +9 AC).

This:

Also, a possibility for paladin//sorcerer is to go dragonblood (spellscale has a Charisma bonus, which is nice) to take still spell, practical metamagic, and accelerate metamagic to still all spells with no penalty, thus giving you effective buffs in any armor at the cost of 3 feats. <snip>

would achieve your goal nicely for casting in armour (any armour) without any penalty.

Otherwise theres a feat in complete mage that allows you to use your weapon to produce the somatic effects (thus allowing you sword and board and still be able to cast).

Fawsto
2008-08-29, 11:19 AM
complete mage = compelte arcane?? o.O

CASTLEMIKE
2008-08-29, 11:34 AM
complete mage = compelte arcane?? o.O

Complete Mage has the Stalwart Sorcerer variant and the 5 level +5 BAB Abjurant Champion PRC.

Aneantir
2008-08-29, 11:35 AM
complete mage = compelte arcane?? o.O

No. Complete Mage and Complete Arcane are different books, Complete Mage being printed later, with new spells that you can't find in the Spell Compendium.

only1doug
2008-08-29, 02:35 PM
I have a friends copy of complete mage at the moment, don't have his copy of complete arcane. the feat i referenced was in complete mage (i think)


Edit: Yup; Somatic Weaponry: You can cast spells when your hands are full, so long as you're holding a weapon.

But taking the 3 feats to never need somatic components on any spell is the better route, if you can afford it.

ocato
2008-08-29, 05:33 PM
So, not to derail the thread, but what do you think would be the best way to do a Paladin/Sorcerer (or similar combination, fighter mcgee plus magic damage/bufferstein) NonGestalt?

arguskos
2008-08-29, 05:34 PM
I'd hazard a guess that Paladin 2/Sorcerer X/Abjurant Champion 5 would be a good route. Champion is a great class, IMO. Pally and Sorc have an excellent synergy (as we all know). It's not really optimized, but I'd bet it's a decent enough build.

-argus

Frosty
2008-08-29, 05:35 PM
Paladin2/SorcererX(4?)/Spellsword1/Abjurant Champion5/Eldritch Knight9

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2008-08-29, 05:59 PM
Paladin 2/ Sorcerer 4/ Spellsword 1/ Abjurant Champion 5/ Sacred Exorcist 8, which I'd posted in another thread just the other day. +16 BAB and 9th level spells at level 20, you couldn't ask for anything more.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-08-29, 06:22 PM
So, not to derail the thread, but what do you think would be the best way to do a Paladin/Sorcerer (or similar combination, fighter mcgee plus magic damage/bufferstein) NonGestalt?Go Crusader and JPM. ;)

ShneekeyTheLost
2008-08-29, 06:46 PM
Here's the only place I'm scrating my head...

Why do you want armor? Wouldn't you rather render it obsolete? But, if you absolutely HAVE to have armor...

+1 Twilight Mithral Chain Shirt. Tadaa! No ASF, no dex penalty. Have a nice day.

Of course, a better route would be:

Pal//Sorcerer/AbChamp/Spellsword1/whatever full spellcasting PrC's you want

In effect, you don't need Twilight, because Spellsword reduces ASF by 10%. But by that time, you don't NEED armor. There was some kind of Abjuration version of Mage Armor somewhere, I think it was like a 3rd level spell that granted an armor bonus? Anyways, that spell will net you better AC than Mithral Full Plate, once you stack on bonuses from Abjurant Champion. Auto-Quickened Shield that grants +9 shield bonus to AC is also better than you're going to find with a regular shield, and doesn't take up a shield slot.

However,

Greater Mirror Image. This one spell obviates AC. Why? How about regenerating images? Take Incantatrix, and Persist it all day long. Now, no matter how insanely high their attack roll is, they've got about a 12.5% chance of being able to even TRY to land a blow on you.

Battle Sorcerer is a trap for this build. Granted, it gets a higher BAB, which is useless with Paladin on the other side, and the ability to wear armor, which I've already pointed out can be made obsolete, in exchage for crippling your spells known list, which HURTS.

Don't worry about Armor, man. None of the cool kids wear it anymore.

Frosty
2008-08-29, 06:57 PM
It's not about AC, which spells can provide. It's about enchantments like Heavy Fortification.

CASTLEMIKE
2008-08-29, 08:01 PM
So, not to derail the thread, but what do you think would be the best way to do a Paladin/Sorcerer (or similar combination, fighter mcgee plus magic damage/bufferstein) NonGestalt?

Cleric or Cloistereded Cleric - 1 for Turning (with Skill Points (CC)) , Favored Soul -4, War Blade -1, Prestige Paladin 3 or 5, X to taste.

ShneekeyTheLost
2008-08-31, 10:38 AM
It's not about AC, which spells can provide. It's about enchantments like Heavy Fortification.

Why are you worried about Fort? There's better ways to become immune to sneak attacks. Heck, simple Concealment is enough to render all precision-based damage obsolete. Greater Blink would do just fine.

Fawsto
2008-09-05, 10:28 PM
Dump, I am reviving this 'cause I could not post here for a long time.

The armor stuff is because I love armor. I mean, the idea of armor. Knight in shiny armor, you know? It is not to be optimal, must only look cool.

I always loved the idea of spell wielding knights. I wanted to make him very flashy, you know, cinematic. Things explode while he fights. The idea here is to keep him versatile while he does flashy stuff. I am mostly quiting on the Warmage and turning Battle Sorcerer, also taking the feat to allow the use of Medium Armor while Casting.

My actual concept resembles Ike from the newest Fire Emblem game series (at endgame where he is in his ultimate tier). Big sword, some armor and with the ability to bash things with "spells".

I know, I could get near this concept using ToB. But it is not allowed. Pitty.

ShneekeyTheLost
2008-09-07, 11:05 AM
Dump, I am reviving this 'cause I could not post here for a long time.

The armor stuff is because I love armor. I mean, the idea of armor. Knight in shiny armor, you know? It is not to be optimal, must only look cool.

I always loved the idea of spell wielding knights. I wanted to make him very flashy, you know, cinematic. Things explode while he fights. The idea here is to keep him versatile while he does flashy stuff. I am mostly quiting on the Warmage and turning Battle Sorcerer, also taking the feat to allow the use of Medium Armor while Casting.

My actual concept resembles Ike from the newest Fire Emblem game series (at endgame where he is in his ultimate tier). Big sword, some armor and with the ability to bash things with "spells".

I know, I could get near this concept using ToB. But it is not allowed. Pitty.

Is Mithral Chain Shirt shiny enough armor for you? With my proposed build, you could still have the full casting of the Sorcerer, and STILL be able to cast without penalty.

Wait, I got it. You want to be flashy in a fight, divine/holy, make things go 'boom', big sword and lots of armor, right?

Okay, it's not completely optimized, but here we go:

Swashbuckler5/Holy Liberator5/Pious Templar 5/xxx 5//Warlock 20

Basically, a CG Paladin. Warlocks also get cast in light armor, so can grab the feat to cast in medium armor at no penalty. Then just grab Mithral Full Plate, and you'll have all the shiny armor you could want! Even better. You want a really effin' cool weapon? A big huge blade? Eldrich Glaive. Not only is it a blade made of pure eldrich energy (with all the cool special effects it entails), but also lets you make a full attack with it as a touch attack. At full Eldrich Blast damage. And you can STILL load it up with things like Vitrolic to make it acid damage and negate SR, or Utterdark and give him two negative levels every time you hit him with it.

Is that what you are wanting?

Emperor Tippy
2008-09-07, 11:15 AM
Remember to take Battle Blessing so you can cast your Paladin spell's as swift actions.

Fawsto
2008-09-08, 02:04 PM
Now, where is this Eldrich Glaive? I am too blind to find it among my sourcebooks.

Battle Blessing -> Taken.

Tempest Fennac
2008-09-08, 02:05 PM
It's in Dragon Magic if I remember correctly (I'll double check).

EDIT: It's definitly in that book.

valadil
2008-09-08, 02:47 PM
It wasn't optimal, but I had a lot of fun with paladin//battle sorcerer NPCs in my last campaign. You have to be pretty damn picky over which spells you take, but you can always fall back on paladin abilities if you don't have the right spell for the job.

Could you get away with pally/full sorc using a twilight mithral breastplate?

ShneekeyTheLost
2008-09-08, 07:10 PM
It wasn't optimal, but I had a lot of fun with paladin//battle sorcerer NPCs in my last campaign. You have to be pretty damn picky over which spells you take, but you can always fall back on paladin abilities if you don't have the right spell for the job.

Could you get away with pally/full sorc using a twilight mithral breastplate?

Well, Full Plate has 35% ASF chance. Let's see...

10% off for Mithral, 10% off for Twilight. You're still looking at 15%. But wait, if you dip Spellsword for a level, that is another 10% off, that leaves 5% to deal with. Grab Thistledown Padding and you're all set!

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-09-08, 11:13 PM
Well, Full Plate has 35% ASF chance. Let's see...

10% off for Mithral, 10% off for Twilight. You're still looking at 15%. But wait, if you dip Spellsword for a level, that is another 10% off, that leaves 5% to deal with. Grab Thistledown Padding and you're all set!Or go with one of the Armor styles from DMGII. Some of them remove 5-10% of the ASF, and usually have other benefits.

Frosty
2008-09-08, 11:26 PM
Githcrafted?

Fawsto
2008-09-09, 12:05 PM
Ermm,

It must, by standard, be possible to run from 1st to 20th level. Item dependence is not something good here.

I need a way to be able to use spells inside armor at level 1. Of course, I am not talking about Full Plates. I am running a Scale at most.

aarondirebear
2008-09-09, 12:08 PM
I can see your DM putting human babies in the arms of a clusterhump of orcs that can only be damaged by fire due to strange magic.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-09-09, 12:31 PM
Ermm,

It must, by standard, be possible to run from 1st to 20th level. Item dependence is not something good here.

I need a way to be able to use spells inside armor at level 1. Of course, I am not talking about Full Plates. I am running a Scale at most.Crusader/Duskblade. Exact build? Bard 1/Crusader 5/Warblade 4/JPM 10//Duskblade 9/Sublime Chord 1/Warblade 10. Take the feat to boost Bard armor to medium. You get 9th level Sorc/Wiz spells, 9th level Crusader Maneuvers, 9th level Warblade maneuvers, 19 BAB, fairly good saves, and all your abilities are Standard actions that you can use at once.

Eldariel
2008-09-09, 12:48 PM
I'd probably rather give up some Warblade-maneuvers for full attack channeling (replacing 4 Warblade-levels on the Sublime Chord-side with Duskblade levels).

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-09-09, 12:53 PM
I'd probably rather give up some Warblade-maneuvers for full attack channeling (replacing 4 Warblade-levels on the Sublime Chord-side with Duskblade levels).Normally I'd do that, too, but this character has a very large number of high-level Maneuvers, most of which are a Standard Action to initiate. I don't see him using that many full-attacks.

Eldariel
2008-09-09, 01:00 PM
Normally I'd do that, too, but this character has a very large number of high-level Maneuvers, most of which are a Standard Action to initiate. I don't see him using that many full-attacks.

It's true, but I'd probably still rather have the option simply because generally you're fine without that many 9th levels (the ones I'd really always want are Strike of Righteous Vitality, War Master's Charge and Time Stands Still - the rest aren't bad by any means, but easy enough to live without, save Tornado Throw), and mobile full attacking is something ToB is very good at so it feels like the Full Attack Channeling would give him a nice extra trick up the sleeve.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-09-09, 01:07 PM
It's true, but I'd probably still rather have the option simply because generally you're fine without that many 9th levels (the ones I'd really always want are Strike of Righteous Vitality, War Master's Charge and Time Stands Still - the rest aren't bad by any means, but easy enough to live without, save Tornado Throw), and mobile full attacking is something ToB is very good at so it feels like the Full Attack Channeling would give him a nice extra trick up the sleeve.How the hell did I forget Time Stands Still? That alone makes Duskblade 13 worth it.

ShneekeyTheLost
2008-09-10, 08:27 PM
Ermm,

It must, by standard, be possible to run from 1st to 20th level. Item dependence is not something good here.

I need a way to be able to use spells inside armor at level 1. Of course, I am not talking about Full Plates. I am running a Scale at most.

Here's the problem: Battle Sorcerer and Warmage both are absolutely CRIPPLED on magic use, particularly end-game, when compared to a primary caster. Even worse, the vast majority of their benefits are absolutely worthless when gestalted with Paladin (and remember folks, ToB has been prohibited). Basically, you cripple yourself for the ability to wear armor from level 1.

By level 5, you can do Mithral Chain Shirt with Pal5/Sorc4/SpellSword1. If you consider Mithral to be item dependent, then your GM is a real jerk, particularly by level 5.

Before that, I just don't see how to do it without gimping your character's spellcasting to the point that you might as well gestalt with something else entirely.

The primary advantage with a Warmage or Battle Sorcerer is that they have 3/4 BAB, higher HD, and armor capability in exchange for very limited casting. As a gestalt with Paladin, you already get full BAB and D10 HD. The only thing you get is casting in light armor.

If you are wanting to do that, go Bard. It's arcane casting, that casts in armor without penalty, and has the advantage of lots of skill points.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-09-11, 03:09 PM
With no ToB, I have to recommend Bard 1/Duskblade 8/Virtuoso 1/Sublime Chord 1/Virtuoso 9//Spell-less Paladin 4/PrC 5/Paladin 1/Duskblade 5/Paladin 5.

Sing, charge, full attack channel. In light armor at first level, medium with a feat. 9th level Sorc casting, great music, and a bunch of other features. More than a bit MAD, but if you avoid spells with saves, the lack of bonus spells won't hurt, given your theurge casting.