Necromany Question for the experts

[Yahzi]

1st Level Necromancer Coolness...

1. Choose Evil as your domain. That means your'e CL 2 for evil spells, like Animate Dead, so you can command a total of 2x4=8 HD of undead.

2. Buy a Megraptor skeleton from the local museum (100 gp?) or a random adventurer.

3. Buy a scroll of Animate Dead (375 gp).

4. Buy a big onyx (200 gp).

5. Rent the local Temple of Evil's desecrated altar for an hour (20 gp).

6. Read the scroll. Take 10 so you don't mess it up.

7. Because you're on desecrated ground, you can create 4 x CL HD of undeadness (the maximum you can control). This means you can animate the Megaraptor as a skeleton.

8. Buy a saddle.

9. Impress the girls with your 8d12+16 HP, AC 14, DR 5/bludgeoning, 2d6+5 damage at +9 to hit ride. Pretty cool for 1st level!


Can anybody think of a RAW reason this doesn't work?

[Stupendous_Man]

take ten? why? or rather, how?

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Starting Gold? Also, why aren't you a Dread Necro? Also, why didn't you take the spellgifted trait, which adds +1 to your CL for one school?

[Zeta Kai]

Where are you getting 695gp at level 1?

[tyckspoon]

Can anybody think of a RAW reason this doesn't work?

Besides being massively outside wealth for a 1st level character? I'm pretty sure you can't take ten on caster level checks.

[Yahzi]

Besides being massively outside wealth for a 1st level character? I'm pretty sure you can't take ten on caster level checks.
O, but it's within the grasp of a 2nd level character (who could buy an even bigger skeleton!).

And I was restricting myself to Core (otherwise I'd take the Master of Undeath feat, which allows you to have one additional undead under your control, which in this case would be a 2nd Megaraptor).

Not being able to Take-10 with a scroll is a good point, but still, with a Wis of 18 and 2 ranks of UMD, thats a +6 on a DC 16 roll (am I calculating that right?), which is 50%. So you might need 2 scrolls...

Still, to have a 2nd level character with an 8HD threshing machine, it's pretty good.

[BobVosh]

1. Epic wealth for level 1.
2. Also I'm pretty sure that you can control X HD but none of their HD can exceed yours. (Swarms, not one pimp skeleton.)

Necromancy is so money inefficient I don't know why it exists.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

1. "You cast evil spells at +1 caster level." That is only taken into account on casting a spell, not at all times. Just like if you'd be controlling your maximum number of undead and get hit for a negative level (-1 CL in general), you'd lose control of as many as it would take to get down to your current maximum. The same goes for casting Animate Dead at +1 CL, if after you've finished casting the spell and your all-day caster level is too low to control your minions some will be released.

2. There is no market price for this, therefore by RAW they are never ever available for purchase. It is absolutely impossible for this character to obtain that without convincing the DM to make one available. Accomplishing this is entirely up to the DM's willingness to allow it.

3. No first level character would/should be able to afford that.

4. This makes the argument against point 3 even stronger.

5. See point 2.

6. This is in direct violation of the RAW, it is impossible to take ten on a caster level check under normal rules. There are feats and class features which permit it but only for very specific situations, and none available to a 1st level character.

7. Entirely dependent on the success of Point 5.

8. You cannot train a mindless creature to carry a rider, as per the Handle Animal skill. You could try to ride it, but you would constantly be making Ride checks to avoid falling from it since it would be moving without regard to your safety.

9. They would either run screaming, or fall to the ground laughing when you fell off of it. There are countless other, easier methods of accomplishing either at 1st level.

[Yahzi]

2. Also I'm pretty sure that you can control X HD but none of their HD can exceed yours.
I don't see that in the spell description (not that it's an unreasonable rule, I just don't see it in RAW).


Necromancy is so money inefficient I don't know why it exists.
Well, a 5th level could use this trick to animate a 20 HD dragon, so that would be kinda cool.

[Yahzi]

1. "You cast evil spells at +1 caster level." That is only taken into account on casting a spell, not at all times.
Interesting point - is it written somewhere in RAW or just a reasonable interpretation?


2. There is no market price for this,
That's what Diplomacy skill is for! :smallbiggrin:


8. You cannot train a mindless creature to carry a rider, as per the Handle Animal skill.
But undead mounts are already allowed. In any case, you don't actually have to ride it. You can just send it over to kill your enemies from a safe (i.e. non-melee) distance away.


Still, good points - thats what I was looking for.

[Akimbo]

Just a note, the actual Animate Dead spell specifically says that even if the amount you summon with it exceeds your control you can still control it.

[Tsotha-lanti]

2. Also I'm pretty sure that you can control X HD but none of their HD can exceed yours. (Swarms, not one pimp skeleton.)

Nope.


Regardless of the type of undead you create with this spell, you can’t create more HD of undead than twice your caster level with a single casting of animate dead. (The desecrate spell doubles this limit)

The undead you create remain under your control indefinitely. No matter how many times you use this spell, however, you can control only 4 HD worth of undead creatures per caster level. If you exceed this number, all the newly created creatures fall under your control, and any excess undead from previous castings become uncontrolled. (You choose which creatures are released.) If you are a cleric, any undead you might command by virtue of your power to command or rebuke undead do not count toward the limit.

That's the relevant bits from animate dead.

[Dausuul]

Interesting point - is it written somewhere in RAW or just a reasonable interpretation?

It's kind of a moot point since you aren't actually casting a spell. You're using a spell trigger item, which is different. The +1 CL never comes into play.

[BobVosh]

That's the relevant bits from animate dead.

I remember a friend having this problem from something, but it may not have been this spell. I think it may have been some werid form of rebuke. Either way, doesn't really matter.

[Tsotha-lanti]

I remember a friend having this problem from something, but it may not have been this spell. I think it may have been some werid form of rebuke. Either way, doesn't really matter.

Must have been a really weird form if it didn't use the usual table. The maximum HD of any individual undead rebuked or turned is cleric level +4, and the maximum HD of any individual undead you can command is your level / 2. (The SRD, at least, doesn't specify cleric level here, so go figure.)

So it's not rebuking/commanding you were thinking of, either - unless, of course, you just remembered wrong.

[BobVosh]

Must have been a really weird form if it didn't use the usual table. The maximum HD of any individual undead rebuked or turned is cleric level +4, and the maximum HD of any individual undead you can command is your level / 2. (The SRD, at least, doesn't specify cleric level here, so go figure.)

So it's not rebuking/commanding you were thinking of, either - unless, of course, you just remembered wrong.

I distinctly remember the problem, but it has been over 2 years since we did it. So now I'm really curious and have to ask him. At which point he will say "I have no clue, it was like 2 years ago."

[Yahzi]

It's kind of a moot point since you aren't actually casting a spell. You're using a spell trigger item, which is different. The +1 CL never comes into play.
Wait - that means that when my 1st level cleric reads a scroll of Animate Dead, the spell is a 5th level spell.

In a consecrated area you can animated 4xHD per level. So my 1st level cleric is animating 5 x 4 = 20 HD. (Using Deathbound domain power, it would be 30 HD!)

Since he can control all the undead created from any one casting, he can control them all.

OK, you're saying, Yahzi, your DM is never gonna let your 1st level character buy a 375 gp scroll (and 750 gp of onyx). But who cares? When my character gets to be 6th level and has Leadership and Write Scroll as his feats, then he'll write scrolls for his followers.

I calculated I could get up to 20 1st level followers at level 6. That means 20 x 30 = 600 skeletons! And since all my dudes will have Corpsecrafter, all those skellies will be +4 STR, +2 DEX, and +4 HP (at 1d12 hit die). Which makes each one of them basically equal to a 1st level Fighter.

Or... alternatively... my 6th level cleric kills some 10 HD creatures, and each of my followers can animate 3 of them. An army of 60 megaraptors!

This is gonna be fun. :D

Heck... there isn't even a reason to take the Evil domain anymore, since by the time I can cast Animate Dead myself (5th level), I don't actually care about a +1 to level.

[Prometheus]

You'd be surprised at how much ordinary citizens and local governments object to raising an army of undead...

In other words, it is a bad idea by RAW, in that your DM will slap your face RAW.

[CASTLEMIKE]

You can do it in FRCS some regions like Waterdeep (FRCS page 32) let you start with +300 GP. PGtF has feats like Mercantile Background +300 GP.

http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Mercantile_Background_(FR),PG

IMO most DMs in a Waterdeep based campaign would probably let a member of a Noble house use the Aristocrat NPC starting gold.

[Yahzi]

You'd be surprised at how much ordinary citizens and local governments object to raising an army of undead....
That's what Diplomacy is for... in this world, the whole planet is invaded nightly by demons. So anything that can fight them, without costing human lives, is a good thing. I'm going to rent my undead army to the King as a police force. :smallbiggrin:


So, at 6th level, with a CHR of 16, I get:

Create my own army:
6th level + 1 CL (Evil) * 2 HD (Descrate) * 3 HD (Deathbound) = 42 skeletons.
Create another 6, release them, and Command them, for a total of 48.

Take Leadership.
20 1st lvl followers. Each uses a scroll (at CL 5, to minimize screw-ups) and Deathbound to create 5 * 2 * 3 = 30 HD. They can also make Command checks until they get lucky (we'll have other skellies hold down the uncontrolled ones until the Rebuke lands) and control 1 additional skeleton.
2 2nd level followers, same as above, but commands 2 additional.
1 3rd level follower, heck... same as above, but commands 3 additional.
1 5th level cohort, who gets 5 + 1 * 2 * 3 or 36, plus 5 additional.

Final price:
23 scrolls (at least): 8,625 gp
806 chunks of onyx: 20,150 gp

Grand total: 806 skeletons! Plus 24 fanatical priest followers to look after them, heal them, and shine their boots.

Now that's an undead army!

[only1doug]

<snip>
Grand total: 806 skeletons! Plus 24 fanatical priest followers to look after them, heal them, and shine their boots.

Now that's an undead army!

806 isn't a whole army but its a respectable number. Its enough to be a target for the GM, who just needs to supply his own necromancers and a few rogues to kill the priests controlling them, then your army will be used against you.