101 Ways to Improve the Pre-Trilogy

[thegurullamen]

Yes, the horrible movies have come and gone on their waves of awe turning to slow horror as humanity realized exactly what had happened to one of the most beloved movie series of all time, but that doesn't mean that we can't (or shouldn't) speculate on what might have been!

The following is a list of suggestions that, if taken, might have saved the pre-trilogy from the craptastic fate of having been written and otherwise creatively manhandled by George Lucas.

1) Byebye wooden acting Yes, we've all heard that this was supposed to be the way Jedis showed they were detached from emotion and all those nasty primal instincts. Wonderful. Couldn't this have been accomplished through I don't know, inter-relational dynamics and plain old acting? Also, why were the non-Jedis also woden?

2) Genocide of the Ewoks and all other cutesy creatures whose existence seems to imply that there never once existed a predatory creature on their planets. If a race exists solely as a way to draw kids into a movie, it should be deleted and its writer should be papercut to death with the pages of the script he or she ruined.

3) It's a galaxy, damnit, not a neighborhood. Anyone else fed up with the repetition of character that had no right to be in both series? C-3PO, R2, Jabba, BOBA FREAKING FETT and Chewbacca? Were there just no other exceptional people in the entire galaxy (defined as a collection of THOUSANDS of stars, a lot of which seem to support life) than these five? Also, as I've said before, THE REPUBLIC'S ARMY WAS NOT MADE OF CLONES OF BOBA'S FRICKING DADDY!!!!

4) "People don't talk like this, George." Quote attributed to Mark Hamill on the set of A New Hope. The man cannot write good dialogue.

So forums, what have you?

[Pronounceable]

Scrap the whole of crapilogy and half the stuff (asterisksesing teddy bears for example) from RotJ, and you have a very nice space opera.

The rot's spread too far. Amputation is the only cure for SW.

[TheEmerged]

I'll try to be serious. I disagree with a couple of your points (IMO, it's not Star Wars without R2 & C-3PO, but YMMV).

1> No Midiclorians. If you *must* have midiclorians, define them as creatures drawn to the force "like moths to flies", none of this crud about how they're the reason jedi can manipulate the force.

2> Hire an editor -- with the power to tell George "no". There were several moments in the series where it was clear George was going to do something regardless of how much sense it makes and that he was definitely in need of someone to tell him the Emporer needed a new robe (metaphorically speaking).

3> George Lucas is required to read this book (http://www.amazon.com/Story-Substance-Structure-Principles-Screenwriting/dp/0060391685/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1219897465&sr=1-1) before he's allowed within 20 yards of a screenplay. He must write a report detailing what he's learned from it about wasted screentime of at least 10 pages, properly footnoted, before he's allowed to work on one. Failing this, he should have to write "Neat Effects do not mean the screentime wasn't wasted" 500 times on a blackboard...

4> Qui-Gon's should have been depicted as a "broken down scholar" and diplomat more along the lines of Dr. Jones Sr (Sean Connery's character in "Last Crusade"). His dialog should have reflected this, perhaps suggesting that Yoda loaned out Obi-Wan to get a second opinion on whether Obi-Wan was ready for mastery.

5> The following dialog. AM = Anakin's Mom, QG = Qui-Gon. Takes place on the back porch when AM bolts out when QG starts talking about the pod race.

AM: "No, I already know what's going to happen. He's going to race, he's going to win. You will get your part and leave here."

QG: (sighs in relief) "Then his attunement to the Force comes from you and not..."

AM : (curtly, more stated than asked) "I'm a female slave, Jedi. What would I know about his father?"

QG: (trying to be diplomatic) "Which is why it's a relief. Tell me..."

AM: (turning, interrupting him firmly) "And you're going to take him from here, by whatever means necessary." (tears up) "And he must NEVER return. Give me your word on this, Jedi. Anakin NEVER returns here."

QG: (nods warily) "I won't profess to understand but... By whatever means necessary." (returns inside).

6> Eliminate the "fear of loss" being the reason for Anakin's fall. Yes, I know where that's coming from. That doesn't change the fact that this felt foreign and therefore forced to most of the audience.

[chiasaur11]

Yes, the horrible movies have come and gone on their waves of awe turning to slow horror as humanity realized exactly what had happened to one of the most beloved movie series of all time, but that doesn't mean that we can't (or shouldn't) speculate on what might have been!

The following is a list of suggestions that, if taken, might have saved the pre-trilogy from the craptastic fate of having been written and otherwise creatively manhandled by George Lucas.

1) Byebye wooden acting Yes, we've all heard that this was supposed to be the way Jedis showed they were detached from emotion and all those nasty primal instincts. Wonderful. Couldn't this have been accomplished through I don't know, inter-relational dynamics and plain old acting? Also, why were the non-Jedis also woden?

2) Genocide of the Ewoks and all other cutesy creatures whose existence seems to imply that there never once existed a predatory creature on their planets. If a race exists solely as a way to draw kids into a movie, it should be deleted and its writer should be papercut to death with the pages of the script he or she ruined.



The Ewoks had an excuse to survive. They bloody killed and ate everyone who got in their way who they weren't convinced were gods. Nasty buggers.

[thegurullamen]

The Ewoks had an excuse to survive. They bloody killed and ate everyone who got in their way who they weren't convinced were gods. Nasty buggers.

According to this logic, they never once worshiped an entity that got so annoyed by their existence that he got in touch with the captain of the Executioner and wasted the moon from orbit. A shield generator-sum-bunker works just as well on a plane of supercooled glass shards and dangerous canyons as it does in a forest. Moreso, in fact, because there's less cover for the survivors/rebels to hide behind.

All in all, it's just too much to ask for that no one ever just killed them all outright.

11) Jedi castration This is entirely Lucas' fault. Whoever created the Clone Wars cartoon showed us all the promise of a kickass Jedi and how much more of a badass an opponent would have to be to stand up to one, let alone handing four Jedis their asses at once. That RotS didn't have one scene to equal the awesomeness of
A) GG's four-on-one battle royale
B) GG's Coruscant Run
C) Random Jedi General's assault from a downed star destroyer onto an enemy battleship with jetpacks
D) Windu's surfing ninjaness over Coruscant
E) A single clone trooper with a rocket launcher/dual pistols/a back turret and the knowledge of how to use them
F) Windu's CHEST CRUSH attack
just shows how far the movies fell from the promise.

[SmartAlec]

You know, when I first watched the trailer for The Phantom Menace, and before I'd seen any spoilers, I assumed the story went something like:

- Qui-Gon (a 'retired' Jedi who'd left the Order for his personal beliefs, or something - I picked that idea up from his dusty serapo and lack of jedi robe, in some scenes) lives on Tatooine, and by chance comes across a young boy with enormous Force potential. He tells the Council.

- The Council are used to wacky stuff from old Qui-Gon, but they send an escort anyway; the young Obi-Wan, a newly-knighted Jedi, is sent on this 'milk run'. Unfortunately, they're tracked by a dark figure (Maul) with designs on taking the boy (because he's the Chosen One, I guess).

- The heroes escape, but end up being drawn into the Naboo conflict by answering a distress call or getting diverted there by the Council in mid-flight. The rest of the movie then proceeds more or less as normal, but with Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan trying to get along despite their character clashes. Qui-Gon eventually wins Obi-Wan around to his belief that the boy he found is The Chosen One.

- I'd also imagined the young Anakin as a somewhat more serious, less 'gee-whilikers!' kind of character; a kind of Galahad, if you will. It would have been nice if he'd been the character to convince Padme to return to Naboo and fight for her planet, possibly through some belief of his that sometimes, you have to take extravagant risks in the hope it'll work out if you want anything to get done (after all, for him, that sort of thing DOES work). Padme attributing Anakin as her inspiration to liberate Naboo would have been a good note for them to start on, maybe.

That would also have been the start of his 'slide' - if Anakin was a little more like the Qui-Gon in the movies, a character who held a belief that you had to 'do what you must' with an almost smugly sanctimonious, messianic air, then it would be easy to turn his messiah tendencies against him when things start to go wrong, by offering him scapegoats like the rest of the Jedi Order to fixate on. That's pretty close to the Anakin in the movies anyway, I know, but still.

Edit: One of my favourite moments when watching the New Trilogy was listening to Count Dooku patiently explain to Obi-Wan that he'd uncovered the existence of a Sith in the Senate. The idea that Sidious was manipulating the entire galaxy to fighting the one guy who knew he was around was a damn good twist, I thought.

Then it turned out Dooku was a bad guy anyway. I was disappointed.

Also, change his name so it's not 'Dooku'.

[bosssmiley]

Declare the entire prequel trilogy discontinuity (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DisContinuity), oh and replace the Ewoks in 'Jedi with Wookies (as they were originally supposed to be). Balance restored to the Force. Job done. :smallamused:

[kamikasei]

David Brin had an excellent essay about the problems with Star Wars, addressing various moral and political failings that are a side issue to this discussion. However, it included an awesome-sounding reinterpretation of how the whole thing fit together, hinging on the fact that R2D2 is left with memory intact - implying that he knew everything that was going on all through the original trilogy. I'll see if I can track down a link...

For myself: no midichlorians, less stupidity and passivity on the part of the Jedi Council and in the handling of Jedi philosophy, less CG-applied-with-a-hose, more badass Jedi, better dialogue. In terms of plot, oh, heck; the entire second movie with its hamfisted approach to "Anakin is sooo talented but everyone keeps putting him down!" was excruciating. Show him actually being a hero rather than an angst-ridden twit.

[doliest]

Yes, the horrible movies have come and gone on their waves of awe turning to slow horror as humanity realized exactly what had happened to one of the most beloved movie series of all time, but that doesn't mean that we can't (or shouldn't) speculate on what might have been!

The following is a list of suggestions that, if taken, might have saved the pre-trilogy from the craptastic fate of having been written and otherwise creatively manhandled by George Lucas.

1) Byebye wooden acting Yes, we've all heard that this was supposed to be the way Jedis showed they were detached from emotion and all those nasty primal instincts. Wonderful. Couldn't this have been accomplished through I don't know, inter-relational dynamics and plain old acting? Also, why were the non-Jedis also woden?

Blame that on trying to speak to CGI effects

2) Genocide of the Ewoks and all other cutesy creatures whose existence seems to imply that there never once existed a predatory creature on their planets. If a race exists solely as a way to draw kids into a movie, it should be deleted and its writer should be papercut to death with the pages of the script he or she ruined.

I LIKED ewoks, thank you very much

3) It's a galaxy, damnit, not a neighborhood. Anyone else fed up with the repetition of character that had no right to be in both series? C-3PO, R2, Jabba, BOBA FREAKING FETT and Chewbacca? Were there just no other exceptional people in the entire galaxy (defined as a collection of THOUSANDS of stars, a lot of which seem to support life) than these five? Also, as I've said before, THE REPUBLIC'S ARMY WAS NOT MADE OF CLONES OF BOBA'S FRICKING DADDY!!!!

Any complaints about boba fett are negated because he is awesome.

4) "People don't talk like this, George." Quote attributed to Mark Hamill on the set of A New Hope. The man cannot write good dialogue.

So forums, what have you?

Also, I liked Midoclorians....


Come to think of it, I liked the prequels better than the originals.

[Oslecamo]

For myself: no midichlorians, less stupidity and passivity on the part of the Jedi Council and in the handling of Jedi philosophy, less CG-applied-with-a-hose, more badass Jedi, better dialogue. In terms of plot, oh, heck; the entire second movie with its hamfisted approach to "Anakin is sooo talented but everyone keeps putting him down!" was excruciating. Show him actually being a hero rather than an angst-ridden twit.

Ok, first, why all the hate for midichlorians? It's stupid, yes, but not more stupid than warp travel or laser swords or the whole universe. There's sound in space for godYoda's sake. Why can't some microscopic creatures grant magic force powers?

The jedi council is passive because they're suposed to be the (real)guardians of peace, not an elite strike force to be dispatched whenever there's dirty work to be done. And they're stupid because they go around fighting with laser swords and no armor. The whole concept of jedi is stupid, so it's only natural people drawn into it end up becoming stupid, being brainwashed from children and all.

Leave the series alone anyway. The 3 original movies are enough. It's better to make a new history from scratch.

[Prophaniti]

Well, a lot of good points so far. I would agree with most of what's been said so far.

I do want to add one big one for me, though. Perhaps more important than fixing the wooden acting.

Fire Samuel Jackson. He does no justice to the role of Mace Windu. Hire
Laurence Fishburne instead. He at least knows how to act, and won't scoff at learning coreography for all the scenes of kick-assery that Windu is supposed to have.

[kamikasei]

@Doliest:

Blame that on trying to speak to CGI effects

No, the acting was wooden even when it was just two actors and no/minimal CG invovled.


Ok, first, why all the hate for midichlorians? It's stupid, yes, but not more stupid than warp travel or laser swords or the whole universe. There's sound in space for godYoda's sake. Why can't some microscopic creatures grant magic force powers?

It's not that the idea of microscopic symbionts which grant strange powers is inherently stupid. It's that it turned the Force from being a mysterious and mystical thing, akin to the Tao or enlightenment or similar, to an infection.

[Oslecamo]

It's not that the idea of microscopic symbionts which grant strange powers is inherently stupid. It's that it turned the Force from being a mysterious and mystical thing, akin to the Tao or enlightenment or similar, to an infection.

Well, think about it. What good have the jedis brought to the galaxy? The Siths are the supreme evil rulers, and even "good" jedis need constant self control rituals to don't go nuts and become super evil doers.

It is an infection on the galaxy.

Also, it's an sci-fi seting. There's suposed to be an explanation for everything, not just "the force did it".

[Whoracle]

Ok, first, why all the hate for midichlorians?

In my case it's because of the ridiculous plot holes it spawned. Retroactively.
I mean, come on... Vader and The Emperor(tm) cleansed the galaxy of all jedi... they just killed them...
Why not go on, extract all the midichlorians from their blood, put them into a syringe or two, jam 'em in and BAM - instagod. If your power in the force directly depends on the amount of some infestation of your blood system (as opposed to, say, thingies that thrive on force sensibility, so they would only be used as an indicator of jedi power rather than the origin of it...), Vader and the emperor should have been mightyier than all the sith lords and jedi from the EU combined.

That's what bugs me. The idiocy this explanation spawned in the BBEGs actions.

[Drascin]

My main beef was with the handling of the dialogue and the... love story, let's call it, because I think that was what it was supposed to be. I didn't have many problems with ewoks or gungans (but then, this might be because in the Spanish dub they sound a tad better, and because I personally liked Boss Nass), but the dialogue, even if the dubbers tried to patch it a bit and make it sound a bit more natural, was just painful at times.


Also, it's an sci-fi seting. There's suposed to be an explanation for everything, not just "the force did it".

Star Wars is not hard scifi and never wanted to be. It's more "Fantasy in space" than anything else, where all technology works at the speed of plot. I don't hate the whole midichlorian stuff too much (felt a bit tasteless, but hardly saga-breaking), but I completely disagree in that there has to be an explanation for everything. Especially for something like the Force.

[Thufir]

Any complaints about boba fett are negated because he is awesome.

OK, why is it that people like Boba Fett SO MUCH?! He did NOTHING that was awesome in ANY of the movies. Jango, now, he stood up to Obi-Wan without having any force powers. That was awesome. Boba was never that good. And the clones weren't even an appreciable fraction of that good.

My main point would be: Do Anakin's fall a bit better. That is, make him fall for more reason than the fact that the plot demands it. As it is, Anakin is essentially good up until the death of Mace Windu, at which point it seems he pretty much goes "Oh well, since I've done this one bad thing just now, I suppose I have no choice but to become a child murdering enforcer of tyranny! Yay!"
Also, I would have thought at the end, his follow-up to "She was alive! I felt it!" would be less "Noooooo!" and more *Force chokes the Emperor*. Need some explanation for that.

[Oslecamo]

In my case it's because of the ridiculous plot holes it spawned. Retroactively.
I mean, come on... Vader and The Emperor(tm) cleansed the galaxy of all jedi... they just killed them...
Why not go on, extract all the midichlorians from their blood, put them into a syringe or two, jam 'em in and BAM - instagod. If your power in the force directly depends on the amount of some infestation of your blood system (as opposed to, say, thingies that thrive on force sensibility, so they would only be used as an indicator of jedi power rather than the origin of it...), Vader and the emperor should have been mightyier than all the sith lords and jedi from the EU combined.

That's what bugs me. The idiocy this explanation spawned in the BBEGs actions.

Who knows. Maybe no jedi was ever captured alive time enough to make midichlorians extraction. Maybe excess midichlorians can kill you. Maybe some other reason that isn't presented on the series.

The whole series is filled with plotholes anyway.
-Why do jedis use melee weapons in a world filled with uber ranged weapons?
-Why spend a stupid amount of resources building the death star when it can be destroyed with one shot and you can easily kill planets with meteor rains anyway?
-Why does every big army just charges head on against the enemy whitout any kind of tactics whatsoever?
-Why not just nuke the Ewooks planet from space untill they all are dead thus making sure to kill Yoda or at least unable to leave the planet? Sure a few sacfrificed clones is a small price to pay to kill the jedi leader.

Ect ect. The midichlorians thingy and it's implications it's just one of them.



Star Wars is not hard scifi and never wanted to be. It's more "Fantasy in space" than anything else, where all technology works at the speed of plot. I don't hate the whole midichlorian stuff too much (felt a bit tasteless, but hardly saga-breaking), but I completely disagree in that there has to be an explanation for everything. Especially for something like the Force.

Maybe the original series. The prequels are definetely much more sci fi and much less fantasy. We have politics, clone and droid armies, and the BBEG raises to the top by clever political manipulation and not by using the force.

[Eskil]

-Why spend a stupid amount of resources building the death star when it can be destroyed with one shot and you can easily kill planets with meteor rains anyway?
Because merely turning a rebellious planetsurface into slagg doesn't intimidate in the same way that disintegrating the planet does.
It's psychology, like Carthage and Hiroshima,both of which were rendered incapable of supporting human life, only the Deathstar takens it to the logical extreme.


Maybe the original series. The prequels are definetely much more sci fi and much less fantasy. We have politics, clone and droid armies, and the BBEG raises to the top by clever political manipulation and not by using the force.

:smallconfused: I fail to see how political intrigue is "less fantasy".
Case in forum-tradition-upholding point. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0414.html)

[Tengu_temp]

The whole series is filled with plotholes anyway.
-Why do jedis use melee weapons in a world filled with uber ranged weapons?
-Why spend a stupid amount of resources building the death star when it can be destroyed with one shot and you can easily kill planets with meteor rains anyway?
-Why does every big army just charges head on against the enemy whitout any kind of tactics whatsoever?


Rule of Cool (for a certain interpretation of Cool).

What? WH40K gives that answer to these questions too.

[Manga Shoggoth]

The problem with midichlorians (admittedly going from when I reluctantly saw the film on DVD - an experience I have taken care not to repeat):


Original Series: The force is a semi-mystical power field
Prequel: It's all down to midichlorians, folks. (aka the Scientific Explanation)
But: "She welcomes Jedi Master Qui-Gon Jinn into their home, and tells him that Anakin has no father; she simply became pregnant with him." (From Wikipedia): Forcing a messianic (ie, semi-mystical) explanation back into the story.


My reaction as soon as I saw that film was "What a lame attempt to portray a Virgin Birth".

And for your other points:

- Why do jedis use melee weapons in a world filled with uber ranged weapons?

TOS: Han Solo makes the very same point, and is answered by Obi-Wan. It is a traditional weapon, from an earlier age. They just happen to block the ranged weapons very well.

Besides, why not? Melee weapons are still used where ranged weapons are impractical.

-Why spend a stupid amount of resources building the death star when it can be destroyed with one shot and you can easily kill planets with meteor rains anyway?

Shock and Awe. Kill one very visible planet with the MOASS, and people will drop into line when they see it in their system.

(Of course, Vader was quite dismissive of the first Death Star, and the second one was a trap)

And, of course, Meteor rains are probably difficult to set up. It's not just dropping rocks - meteors have to move at a very high relative speed, and have to reach ground level.

-Why does every big army just charges head on against the enemy whitout any kind of tactics whatsoever?

That is a tactic. It happens to be a very old one - in fact, one of the oldest in the book. Charges are still used today (admittedly in much more limited conditions).

-Why not just nuke the Ewooks planet from space untill they all are dead thus making sure to kill Yoda or at least unable to leave the planet? Sure a few sacfrificed clones is a small price to pay to kill the jedi leader.

Much though I dislike the Ewoks (outside of their justifiable position in ROTJ*), that is simply not an efficient way of doing things. Such an action would have to be either:
(1) a general order - in which case there would be nuked planets wherever a Jedi was hiding, which is one hell of a resourse waste.
(2) Specifically ordered for Yoda. The commander in question would have to justify wrecking a planet, because it is a resource waste.

(Caveat: Not seen the film in question)


* In the original series the Ewoks were - to me, at least - a wonderful example of how high-tech can be defeated by low-tech. I would have preferred the ewoks to be a little less "cute", but in their defense point out that there are many cute, furry creatures that are extremely dangerous when provoked.

(To almost quote Pratchett: The trouble with a small, furry creature is that sometimes it's a mongoose - Underestimate your enemy at your peril.)

I know. I'm bored at work again...

[Toastkart]

Take out all the forced humor (ie Jar Jar and r2/c3po). The funny parts of the original trilogy were all in the dialogue or side scenes (the bullfrog thing outside Jabba's palace that slurps up the rat thing)

The midichlorians thing I agree with, it totally destroyed the idea of the Force as a spiritual enlightenment and rooted it firmly in biology. Alas, the reductionists have wormed their way into science fiction.

A little less cgi. Cgi isn't bad when used appropriately, but there are times when it's over the top. A special effect should be used in the telling of the story, it shouldn't be used just to show how cool something can be. The fights with Yoda and Count Dooku especially were over the top.

The romance subplot was weak and felt very wooden, but that's been said already.

Overall though, I didn't find anything wrong with the portrayal of the Jedi as a whole. The movies, to me at least, showed clearly that the Jedi's greatest failing is their adherence to the strictness of the Jedi Code, rules, and traditions.

[chiasaur11]

Well, a lot of good points so far. I would agree with most of what's been said so far.

I do want to add one big one for me, though. Perhaps more important than fixing the wooden acting.

Fire Samuel Jackson. He does no justice to the role of Mace Windu. Hire
Laurence Fishburne instead. He at least knows how to act, and won't scoff at learning coreography for all the scenes of kick-assery that Windu is supposed to have.

Someone is very, very wrong on an important issue.

Nothing against Fishburne, but...

[mangosta71]

I would say that I would like to throttle Jar-jar, but that would be too quick and not nearly painful enough.

Something that bugs me about Jedi all throughout the series - the Code teaches them to be empty, emotionless automatons devoid of any passion, but they spout "trust your feelings" constantly.

[Jibar]

Alright just because this bugs me.
The Force is still mystical.
They never explain where the Force comes from, what creates it, how it works, ANYTHING.
Midi-chlorians (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Midi-chlorian) are simply a reason why one person can use the Force and another can't.
If you believe that the Force chooses all those who can wield, then there is a very high chance that the Force causes the midi-chlorians to appear in such numbers in the first place.
Without midi-chlorians, the Force falls apart. When you accept that random people can use it, you then have to wonder why everyone can't. Especially when it is presented as being a matter of will at times. It's like asking why if all wizards have to do is read some words and then recite them to cast a spell, why can't everybody?
Midi-chlorians explain that. They explain Force Sensitivity. Nothing else.
Frankly, I find the whole hate behind it ridiculous. I don't think it's a good idea or a bad idea, no. Honestly, I think it makes quite a bit of sense. Because it explains how Jedi are selected. Explains why one person can be a Jedi and not.
I mean, think about it in terms of the plot. Anakin's high count? If he had enough to be Force Sensitive, but only had an average number, Qui-Gon would have dismissed him. He might have suggested someone was sent to free the boy, he might not. The Force however increased Anakin's midi-chlorian count to make damn well sure that Qui-Gon realised this boy was something special.
Most people hate midi-chlorians because they don't understand what they do. One of the things I would fix with the prequels is the explanation of it all. I would have spelt it out clearer that all they do is make you Force Sensitive. Nothing else.

:annoyed:

Now, as for the rest of it all: Yes, I'd get rid of Jar Jar. Yes, I would portray Anakin differently.
But, Episode 1 is the only one I'd really change. That needs work.
Episode 2 just needs to be scrapped completely and worked on from the ground up.
All Episode 3 needs is Grevious fixed, that's all.



Fire Samuel Jackson. He does no justice to the role of Mace Windu. Hire
Laurence Fishburne instead. He at least knows how to act, and won't scoff at learning coreography for all the scenes of kick-assery that Windu is supposed to have.

Alternatively: Give Windu more screen time. It's hard to justify Jackson not doing justice to Windu, considering Windu only became such a badass because Jackson was playing him.

[turkishproverb]

Ironically, I was actually half way through rewriting these films when My last computer crashed. I lost my transcripts of the origionals and my redo's so I have to start over. :smallannoyed:

[Tengu_temp]

All Episode 3 needs is Grevious fixed, that's all.


Actually, since one of my friends was very annoying in his fanboying over Grevious, I was really happy when he turned out to be such a wimp. Same deal with the Emperor's elite guard (you know, the red guys).

[Jibar]

Actually, since one of my friends was very annoying in his fanboying over Grevious, I was really happy when he turned out to be such a wimp. Same deal with the Emperor's elite guard (you know, the red guys).

Now see, I understand completely with his sucking in the third film. His droid body has been severely damaged, and when he fought Obi Wan he lacked all the components necessary to his success; fear, intimidation, surprise. Obi Wan neither feared him, nor was intimidated by him in the slightest and actually had the drop on Grevious. Grevious against a prepared Jedi, and a Jedi Master at that? He stood no chance.
Nah. I just reckon he should have been a little more acrobatic in the fight. That's my only real complaint with him there.

...I'm a big Star Wars fan. I'm the kinda fan who insists the prophecy was fulfilled 4000 years earlier by a certain Darth...

[Arlion]

well,in my opinion the prequel trilogy is really good

as for anakin downfall,well,i dont think the fear of loss was really the reason.I think thats an excuse he use to convince himself of doing it,he says to himself he do it for Padme,but really he do it for power.He always wanted power,but he didint want to aknowledge it,it was bad,on the other hand,doing it to save Padme,seemed a lot better for him.

And the force is still a mistical thing.And you cant transfuse midiclhorians into your blood to make yourself more powerfull,because that would surely replace the ones you alredy have

[turkishproverb]

Ironically, I still think his turn to the dark side ultimatelly brought balance two fold.

1: Eliminated most of the Jedi, leaving 2 effective ones fighting the good fight to balance out the two sith, with the others balancing all of the illegitimate dark force users the empire fielded.

Under this interpretation, bringing balance to the force could be a bad thing.

The other half

2: The jedi had become insular and denying of emotion in addition to attachment. The jedi's denying of emotions training, combined with his love of his mother and wife made him fall, his love for his son brought him back. Something the jedi would not have approved of at the end of their reign.

Thus, balance.

[mangosta71]

Well, if the servants of the light side are numerous while the servants of the dark side are few, an act that equalizes their numbers could easily be seen as balancing. After Anakin's fall and the eradication of the other Jedi, there were two on each side - Palpatine and Vader vs. Yoda and Obi-wan.

As for the other, the Jedi Code would have to be either radically altered or entirely thrown out the window. The first line of it denounces passion. All passion. The doctrine of the Jedi Council seems to teach that Jedi shouldn't even enjoy doing good things, or have strong feelings about doing what's right.

[TheThan]

None of what Jibar said is explicitly stated in the movie. They leave it totally blank. Anakin just asks “what are Midi-chlorians?” and he gets a very generic answer. Qui-Gon doesn’t explain just what causes them or anything of the sort. Which does make the force seem like some sort of infection or decease. It cheapens the whole mystical aspect of the force. In the original trilogy, Luke was the last of his kind in the galaxy, but after episode one he turned into the last carrier of a disease. Which is just not cool.


As for the death star, you guys don’t seem to realize it was not intentionally designed with that flaw. It was a mistake; none of the designers figured it could be used to blow up the station. The thing was basically a smokestack. The designers just missed it (no one is perfect). Besides it was heavily guarded by turbo lasers and protected from laser fire with ray shields. They obviously thought that was enough to protect it.

Shooting a proton torpedo down it was a really risky move anyway, sort of the last ditch effort you’d expect from a rag tag group of freedom fighters, threatened with extermination by impossible odds.

Not to mention the tactical errors of Grand Moff Tarkin . He should have immediately launched several waves of fighters to deal with the rebel bombing runs before they got anywhere near the station. He was even warned that there was a chance they could blow it up. He didn’t listen. The fault lies with the much vaunted Grand Moff Tarkin.


Now that I’m done with my tangent, I’ll get to what I think needed to be done.


Make the “love story” believable.
Make Anakin’s fall more believable
No Jar Jar, we have enough (better) comedy
Anakin did not build C3P0, in fact C3P0 should have been introduced at the end of episode III
Clone Jedi instead of cloned bounty hunters
No Janjo Fett, it ruins the mystique of Boba Fett
Change Count Dooku, make him a good guy that uncovers the truth, then gets killed by Darth Maul
More battles, a war is supposed to be rageing after all.
Give the actors a chance to you know… act.
Put some emphasis on the beginnings of the rebellion (personal taste here)

[Mr. Scaly]

I can honestly say without hyperbole that I have NO IDEA WHATSOEVER what problem that people seem to have with Jar Jar. Is it the way he talks or the fact that he's clumsy? Because, you know, every gungan talks with that accent...

And remember folks these were the earlier years of big budget mass CGI stuff. They were still experimenting with what they had.

As for changes I would have liked a bit more screen time from Christopher Lee to explain just how a respected Jedi Master falls to the Dark Side so quickly. Also to not kill him off so quickly in RotS. All the little stuff I liked, but I don't think that Dooku and Grievous got all the scenes that they deserved as big time villains. Alas, they were overshadowed by Emperor Ham. :smallwink:

[Jibar]

None of what Jibar said is explicitly stated in the movie.

That's one of the problems levelled at it.
If it was explained clearly, there wouldn't nearly be as much outcry.
But because of it, and because of the outcry, and author's reluctance to really touch midi-chlorians after all the hate meant they never got the explanation to deserve.
They are misunderstood.
They do not derserve the bitterness levelled at it.

[BRC]

Well, if the servants of the light side are numerous while the servants of the dark side are few, an act that equalizes their numbers could easily be seen as balancing. After Anakin's fall and the eradication of the other Jedi, there were two on each side - Palpatine and Vader vs. Yoda and Obi-wan.

As for the other, the Jedi Code would have to be either radically altered or entirely thrown out the window. The first line of it denounces passion. All passion. The doctrine of the Jedi Council seems to teach that Jedi shouldn't even enjoy doing good things, or have strong feelings about doing what's right.

This is my theory, Anakin DID bring balance to the force.

Using the movies only, at first the Sith were in hiding and the Jedi were in power, then after the war, there were only two sith (Vader and Palpatine) and only two Jedi (Obi-won and Yoda), when a third jedi appeared (Luke), Anakin kept the balance by killing another one (Obi-won). Then when a Jedi died (Yoda), it was unbalanced 2 sith to one jedi, so Vader killed palpatine, once again balancing it as one to one.

[doliest]

None of what Jibar said is explicitly stated in the movie. They leave it totally blank. Anakin just asks “what are Midi-chlorians?” and he gets a very generic answer. Qui-Gon doesn’t explain just what causes them or anything of the sort. Which does make the force seem like some sort of infection or decease. It cheapens the whole mystical aspect of the force. In the original trilogy, Luke was the last of his kind in the galaxy, but after episode one he turned into the last carrier of a disease. Which is just not cool.


As for the death star, you guys don’t seem to realize it was not intentionally designed with that flaw. It was a mistake; none of the designers figured it could be used to blow up the station. The thing was basically a smokestack. The designers just missed it (no one is perfect). Besides it was heavily guarded by turbo lasers and protected from laser fire with ray shields. They obviously thought that was enough to protect it.

Shooting a proton torpedo down it was a really risky move anyway, sort of the last ditch effort you’d expect from a rag tag group of freedom fighters, threatened with extermination by impossible odds.

Not to mention the tactical errors of Grand Moff Tarkin . He should have immediately launched several waves of fighters to deal with the rebel bombing runs before they got anywhere near the station. He was even warned that there was a chance they could blow it up. He didn’t listen. The fault lies with the much vaunted Grand Moff Tarkin.


Now that I’m done with my tangent, I’ll get to what I think needed to be done.


Make the “love story” believable.
Make Anakin’s fall more believable
No Jar Jar, we have enough (better) comedy
Anakin did not build C3P0, in fact C3P0 should have been introduced at the end of episode III
Clone Jedi instead of cloned bounty hunters
No Janjo Fett, it ruins the mystique of Boba Fett
Change Count Dooku, make him a good guy that uncovers the truth, then gets killed by Darth Maul
More battles, a war is supposed to be rageing after all.
Give the actors a chance to you know… act.
Put some emphasis on the beginnings of the rebellion (personal taste here)


Okay I see alot of problems here-
1.The force IS a disease, as it's carriers don't do any good, mostly just apathy or evil.
2.Jar-Jar is my second favorite character.
3.Jango was cool, he took on a jedi master without the force or even lightsabers.
4.More battles!? Don't you think the movies are long enough!?
5.I still don't understand why there was a rebellion, we're never shown the emperor doing anything particularly EVIL.

[SmartAlec]

The 'Word of God' says that it was the Sith and the Dark Side that was the unbalancing factor. It's easy to see the Force as a Taoist, yin-and-yang kind of arrangement, but I think Lucas went for a kind of buddhist approach to things.

It helps if you don't think of it as 'The Light Side, and the Dark Side', but instead think of it as 'The Force, and the Dark Side'. There's not even any mention of a Light Side in the movies, I think.


1.The force IS a disease, as it's carriers don't do any good, mostly just apathy or evil.

Dunno about apathy - the Jedi philosophy generally tries to do good, but it also strives towards an extremely long-term, contemplative frame of mind that can come off as being apathetic.

The Jedi Council are just naturally really wary when it comes to getting involved in a war - "We're keepers of the peace, not soldiers." It's only when a renegade Jedi is shown to be behind the Seperatist movement that they take to the field, because dealing with threats created by the Force is what they do.

[thegurullamen]

Okay I see alot of problems here-
1.The force IS a disease, as it's carriers don't do any good, mostly just apathy or evil.
2.Jar-Jar is my second favorite character.
3.Jango was cool, he took on a jedi master without the force or even lightsabers.
4.More battles!? Don't you think the movies are long enough!?
5.I still don't understand why there was a rebellion, we're never shown the emperor doing anything particularly EVIL.

I don't understand the "Force is a disease" POV. Sure, there are parallels, but the relationship between the Force and a Force-sensitive individual is never spelled out beyond "You has teh midi klorienz! Uz ken be Jed Aye." And anyway, the reason that's bad is because it reduces the Force to something biological when the original trilogy never once did anything of the sort and really, that's the concept we all fell in love with.

Jar-Jar falls under the Genocide of the Ewoks problem for me. Except worse. Unlike the Ewoks, he serves no purpose in the films except to point the two Jedi to a haven...sort of. He's not even integral there; they probably would have found the city of the Gungans themselves and even if they hadn't, who cares? They're Jedi. They'd hijack a STAP or one of the huge transports and get around the planet well enough. After that pointless scene, Jar Jar doesn't do a single important thing, except that dumb "Idiot in the Senate" scene which any other puppet of Palpatine's (he's got enough to go around) could have done.

As for Jango, the only reason he won that fight was because he was supposed to. Badass normal vs Jedi is a cool fight, so long as the Jedi is kept on the ropes (ala GG.) JF let Obi have so much time to do whatever, there's no reason that he and his son shouldn't have ended up on the bottom of that sea. He shouldn't have been in that movie.

The PT really did a horrible job of showing a lot of the politics behind the rise of the empire, even though it tried its hardest to focus on politics. Why does it matter that someone is dissolving the Republic to replace it with an Empire when it's been established that the Republic's falling apart at the edges anyway? So it's a Sith, whoop de freaking do. It's a highly motivated, intelligent and determined Sith; maybe he can make a go of something as insanely difficult as an intergalactic government.

[UncleWolf]

GET RID OF JAR-JAR!!!!

That would change the entire thing for the better

[SmartAlec]

Why does it matter that someone is dissolving the Republic to replace it with an Empire when it's been established that the Republic's falling apart at the edges anyway? So it's a Sith, whoop de freaking do. It's a highly motivated, intelligent and determined Sith; maybe he can make a go of something as insanely difficult as an intergalactic government.

I guess the assumption is that we've all seen the Original Trilogy, so we know what Palpatine's approach to galactic government (totalitarian regime that runs on propaganda and fear) is like.

[doliest]

I guess the assumption is that we've all seen the Original Trilogy, so we know what Palpatine's approach to galactic government (totalitarian regime that runs on propaganda and fear) is like.

That's my biggest gripe with the Original series, we don't see the empire doing anything evil or totalitarian! Even alderian was just Grand Moff Tokin, not the emporer or even vader, just a military general.

[Storm Bringer]

That is really the sticker, the last point about the empire not being that evil at the end of ep3. It really needed to do something to establish that it was the Evil Empire, not just the Empire.

I mean, during the orignal trillogy, it's willing to blow up whole planets to scare people. All it did during ep 3 was kill the jedi, who, let's face it, were plotting to overthrow the legitimate government, and formalise the handover of powers to the emperor (most of them ones he already had been given freely by the senate, who, lest we forget, appluded when he founded the New Order).

What it really needed was a good public massacre that it tried and failed to justify. A show of excessive force, Something to start the ball rolling on the rebellion.

I mean, we know that he's an evil tyrant that is going to enslave the galaxy, but the galaxy doesn't know that.

[SmartAlec]

That's my biggest gripe with the Original series, we don't see the empire doing anything evil or totalitarian! Even alderian was just Grand Moff Tokin, not the emporer or even vader, just a military general.

Disbanding the Senate? That's pretty totalitarian. I know we don't see it, but still.

Thing is, the movies focus on the Rebellion, and specific characters in the Rebellion. To really see the Empire at work, we'd have to go planetside, away from the action.

[thegurullamen]

I guess the assumption is that we've all seen the Original Trilogy, so we know what Palpatine's approach to galactic government (totalitarian regime that runs on propaganda and fear) is like.

I suppose, but that doesn't sit well with me for two reasons.

A) Because of the amount of "FREEDOM EAKWALS GOOD!!!" propaganda Lucas put in RotS. We were always supposed to assume the Empire was a bad, bad thing without ever showing us why. (This just got worse after Lucas thought that putting a lot of anti-Bushisms in RotS was going to be great.)

B) The Senate held together for a good eighteen years after the creation of the Empire. Think about that. Palpatine, acting as Emperor, let the Senate stand for eighteen years when he could have wiped it out and done away with any potential problems right then and there WHILE being cheered for it as it was (probably) "in the best interests" of the new Galactic Empire. By the way, the Republic-to-Empire transition speech was one of the worst thing's I'd ever seen on film. Everyone's cheering about the change like morons, even though nothing had changed really. Except for good ol' Padme who was ultimately angsty for no damned reason.

[Mando Knight]

...I'm a big Star Wars fan. I'm the kinda fan who insists the prophecy was fulfilled 4000 years earlier by a certain Darth...

Are you referring to "Mr. R" or "Ms. K?"

It is disappointing that Lucas didn't spend a little more time in RotS revealing why the not-Jedi should care about a Sith Lord being the Emperor of the Galaxy...

Once the Rebellion got going, there are plenty of atrocities that one can point to (including the destruction of Alderaan, probably the cause of the Heel Face Turn (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HeelFaceTurn) of a large number of Imperials... and also slavery of sapients, ravaging of planets, and limiting free speech...)

[mangosta71]

Personally, I just found all of the Gungans irritating, so Jar-jar receives most of the wrath that I throw at the species because he has the most screentime.

Why does everyone think that limiting free speech is so evil? A lot of the world's problems would go away if we shut the idiots up.

[Twin2]

I would have preferred a few more space battles. Space battles with no witty banter in between characters. I'd rather have tense moments considering how one wrong move gives a fiery fiery death.

[Mr. Scaly]

For me the fact that Palpatine slaughtered every Jedi he could get his hands on was a pretty big sign that the Empire wouldn't be run with a velvet hand. And no, they weren't plotting to overthrow him. They were going to remove a Sith from power not assume control of the government.

Edit: Though admittedly most of the real serious examples of evility come from EU.

[mangosta71]

Even if they don't take power themselves, it's still a coup.

[Mr. Scaly]

A coup entails replacing one government with another. The Jedi were removing the first government but they wouldn't get involved in setting up another.

[SmartAlec]

Palpatine, acting as Emperor, let the Senate stand for eighteen years when he could have wiped it out and done away with any potential problems right then and there WHILE being cheered for it as it was (probably) "in the best interests" of the new Galactic Empire.

I dunno about that. To get rid of the Senate you would have to actually replace it with something. The Emperor did replace it with something - his system of Regional Governors and Moffs - but to be able to do that, he needed actual Governors, and not just any old Governor but folks who were firmly and totally shaped by his New Order philosophies, and totally convinced that the Empire was 'right'. To do that he needed to set the New Order up, he needed to indoctrinate, he needed to get a new political subculture based on Imperial power up and running.

It does make sense that the Empire's public evil begins with the Death Star. Before the destruction of Alderaan and the Battle of Yavin, the Rebellion is actually pretty small-scale, a loose gathering of Chandrilan and Corellian security forces, and put together by concerned senators who still maintain that Palpatine should have given up his emergency powers. After the Death Star, the Empire starts to feel it can get away with absolutely anything, and it begins a policy of state-supported terrorism. After the Battle of Yavin, worlds begin to openly revolt, which is pretty reasonable, really.

[mangosta71]

A coup entails replacing one government with another. The Jedi were removing the first government but they wouldn't get involved in setting up another.

Even so, another government will form. Well, I suppose the galaxy could crumble into anarchy instead...

[Mr. Scaly]

Even so, another government will form. Well, I suppose the galaxy could crumble into anarchy instead...

Blame the other government for taking the place of the previous one, not the guys who were acting to protect the galaxy.

[Dervag]

2) Genocide of the Ewoks and all other cutesy creatures whose existence seems to imply that there never once existed a predatory creature on their planets.I dunno. The Ewoks seem like a fairly plausible development of the monkey-equivalents on Endor. They're highly social, they live in the trees (away from BIG predators on the forest floor), and they're big on traps. It's plausible that a species like that could exist. The deliberate cuteness should go, especially if you're going to have them win battles. But the idea of diminutive tree dwelling aliens isn't inherently bad.


4) "People don't talk like this, George." Quote attributed to Mark Hamill on the set of A New Hope. The man cannot write good dialogue.Yes, and I think this covers a myriad of other problems. We need a better dialogue writer. Lucas got in some good lines, but the overall quality of the scripts was lacking.


4> Qui-Gon's should have been depicted as a "broken down scholar" and diplomat more along the lines of Dr. Jones Sr (Sean Connery's character in "Last Crusade"). His dialog should have reflected this, perhaps suggesting that Yoda loaned out Obi-Wan to get a second opinion on whether Obi-Wan was ready for mastery.I dunno. I think Qui-Gon could work as a serene fatherly master who's a bit of a maverick by pre-Clone Wars Jedi Council standards.


5> The following dialog. AM = Anakin's Mom, QG = Qui-Gon. Takes place on the back porch when AM bolts out when QG starts talking about the pod race.

AM: "No, I already know what's going to happen. He's going to race, he's going to win. You will get your part and leave here."

QG: (sighs in relief) "Then his attunement to the Force comes from you and not..."

AM : (curtly, more stated than asked) "I'm a female slave, Jedi. What would I know about his father?"

QG: (trying to be diplomatic) "Which is why it's a relief. Tell me..."

AM: (turning, interrupting him firmly) "And you're going to take him from here, by whatever means necessary." (tears up) "And he must NEVER return. Give me your word on this, Jedi. Anakin NEVER returns here."

QG: (nods warily) "I won't profess to understand but... By whatever means necessary." (returns inside).Oh my God. That is good. You should have written the movies, even if I don't agree with all your decisions. They would be effing awesome.


That RotS didn't have one scene to equal the awesomeness of
A) GG's four-on-one battle royale
B) GG's Coruscant Run
C) Random Jedi General's assault from a downed star destroyer onto an enemy battleship with jetpacks
D) Windu's surfing ninjaness over Coruscant
E) A single clone trooper with a rocket launcher/dual pistols/a back turret and the knowledge of how to use them
F) Windu's CHEST CRUSH attack
just shows how far the movies fell from the promise.Chalk it up to the lack of Tartatovsky (I'm not sure how to spell his name). That guy does really good fight scenes.


You know, when I first watched the trailer for The Phantom Menace, and before I'd seen any spoilers, I assumed the story went something like:...Yeah. That's pretty darn cool too.


In terms of plot, oh, heck; the entire second movie with its hamfisted approach to "Anakin is sooo talented but everyone keeps putting him down!" was excruciating. Show him actually being a hero rather than an angst-ridden twit.Well, I think a bit of twittery would not be misplaced. He's supposed to be a boy who was taken from his parents at around eight and raised in a monastic order in which he was singled out for his exceptional power but constantly lectured on the need for control. All of that is quite plausible and doesn't make for a well integrated personality.

But it was taken to truly stupid lengths in the movie, because it became annoying rather than plausible.


OK, why is it that people like Boba Fett SO MUCH?! He did NOTHING that was awesome in ANY of the movies. Jango, now, he stood up to Obi-Wan without having any force powers. That was awesome. Boba was never that good. And the clones weren't even an appreciable fraction of that good.People like Boba Fett because he looked cool and he was the only remotely effective non-Force adept villain in the series. But yeah, it would have been interesting if the clones were individually tough (elite commandoes instead of being sent into battle in big phalanxes).


My main point would be: Do Anakin's fall a bit better. That is, make him fall for more reason than the fact that the plot demands it. As it is, Anakin is essentially good up until the death of Mace Windu, at which point it seems he pretty much goes "Oh well, since I've done this one bad thing just now, I suppose I have no choice but to become a child murdering enforcer of tyranny! Yay!"In the novelization it's fleshed out a bit more. Palpatine has (deliberately) been a major father figure to him since he was taken from Tatooine, so he's horribly conflicted and confused. The Sith are bad, but Palpatine isn't bad, but Palpatine is the Sith Lord behind the war, but Palpatine wants Anakin to help him end the war, but but but...

It overwhelms his sense of judgement, and he ends up just subordinating himself to Palpatine's stronger will. That was at least sort of covered in the movie, but the movie didn't do a very good job of it I admit.


Blame the other government for taking the place of the previous one, not the guys who were acting to protect the galaxy.OK, but it's still a fact that the Jedi were planning extralegal action* to overthrow a popular elected leader**.

*The Jedi had no official power to arrest the Chancellor
**Yes, the populace and the Senate who elected him didn't have all the facts, and should never have elected him.

That doesn't mean the Jedi were in the wrong. But it likewise doesn't mean that Palpatine was automatically committing an evil act to try and neutralize the Jedi Order as an element in the Republic/Empire's politics.

Yes, we know that the Jedi are iconic champions of good and light against the tyranny of the Sith, but our perspective is colored by the original trilogy, which hasn't happened yet. Imagine if in real life, an order of monks with deadly martial arts powers decided to arrest an elected leader for (allegedly) being a powerful evil demon or something. Even if you knew that demons were real, it would still be an ambiguous act. After all, how are you supposed to know whether the monks are telling the truth, or just making up accusations to make an opponent look evil?

Massacring the Jedi, without giving them a chance to surrender, was obviously wrong, but most of the Republic would have no idea that happened. Killing the young Jedi-trainees was an act of grotesque evil, but again, not something the Republic as a whole was aware of.

So nothing Palpatine did was self-evidently oppressive evil from the point of view of an average citizen in his society. Which, come to it, was the point: Palpatine was very specifically trying to take over with public support. The Sith had already had lots of bad experiences with trying to conquer the galaxy by armed force.

[freerangetroll]

We all know Knights of the Old Republic is better then anything pre A New Hope.

[chiasaur11]

Yes, we know that the Jedi are iconic champions of good and light against the tyranny of the Sith, but our perspective is colored by the original trilogy, which hasn't happened yet. Imagine if in real life, an order of monks with deadly martial arts powers decided to arrest an elected leader for (allegedly) being a powerful evil demon or something. Even if you knew that demons were real, it would still be an ambiguous act. After all, how are you supposed to know whether the monks are telling the truth, or just making up accusations to make an opponent look evil?




If that happened, I would watch I good deal more C-Span, I tell you that right now.

[LordVader]

OK, why is it that people like Boba Fett SO MUCH?! He did NOTHING that was awesome in ANY of the movies. Jango, now, he stood up to Obi-Wan without having any force powers. That was awesome. Boba was never that good. And the clones weren't even an appreciable fraction of that good.


It's just because he's...cool! He's Boba Fett! :smalltongue:

[Tirian]

We all know Knights of the Old Republic is better then anything pre A New Hope.

Wait. Star Wars ... are you guys talking about those six movies loosely based off the characters in Timothy Zahn's Thrawn trilogy? I heard those were kind of okay, but nowhere near as good as the books.

[thegurullamen]

Wait. Star Wars ... are you guys talking about those six movies loosely based off the characters in Timothy Zahn's Thrawn trilogy? I heard those were kind of okay, but nowhere near as good as the books.

Maybe it's because it's late, but that made me lol.

Hmmm....maybe Thrawn had a father who did something in the PT?

[TheEmerged]

It's just because he's...cool! He's Boba Fett! :smalltongue:

Blame Kenner, the toy company. He was *majorly* hyped up as a result of the fact he was something you had to buy a lot of other toys in order to "earn", and the (deservedly infamous) Holiday Special was advertised as introducing him. Full disclosure, I "earned" three of him...

Thing is, unlike a lot of the other toys he didn't have a backstory, didn't really even have a story. So you invented your own. And for the average kid buying the toys, you came up with your own -- a (back)story that reflected your own tastes and fantasies. So for many of us, he became our favorite figure because he was what *we* wanted to be in the story -- a Gary Stu, if you will.

My personal theory is that reaction to this hype is why Lucas had him die such a mockable death in "Jedi".


Oh my God. That is good. You should have written the movies, even if I don't agree with all your decisions. They would be effing awesome.

Thanks. I credit that book I mentioned in my original post with improving my internal editor :smallbiggrin:

[Tirian]

OK, why is it that people like Boba Fett SO MUCH?! He did NOTHING that was awesome in ANY of the movies.

See, this is what was wrong with the pre-trilogy, and perhaps nearly every other action movie in the past ten years.

Think about the greatest villains from classical movie history. The Wicked Witch of the West, Norman Bates, the shark from Jaws, Maleficent, Mrs. Robinson from The Graduate, even Darth Vader. What they have in common is that they did NOTHING on screen to validate the fear that we were picking off of the musical cues and the rest of the cast. Nowadays, the villains do things, as if directors are under the idiotic impression that current-gen special effects are freakier than the sum of each of our individual nightmares.

Nowhere is this more clear than Boba Fett. This is pretty much a guy whose menace was that he walked across a set except that he did it wearing a ROCKET PACK with a GRAPPLE GUN attached to it. Holy crap! I saw that in the theater and spent the next three years dreaming about what he could do with it. And I can assure you that every one of those dreams was more cool than being instantly pwned by a blind man turning around with a pole in his hand.

[SmartAlec]

Star Wars always works best when it works on classic archetypes and simple, timeless mythology. And you don't get more timeless and classic (well, in America anyway) than the black-hat bounty hunter. Boba Fett was that - in space.


My personal theory is that reaction to this hype is why Lucas had him die such a mockable death in "Jedi".

The character was introduced in the Star Wars Christmas Special. By comparison, I think his 'death' in Jedi was pretty merciful.

[Sholos]

Blame Kenner, the toy company. He was *majorly* hyped up as a result of the fact he was something you had to buy a lot of other toys in order to "earn", and the (deservedly infamous) Holiday Special was advertised as introducing him. Full disclosure, I "earned" three of him...

Thing is, unlike a lot of the other toys he didn't have a backstory, didn't really even have a story. So you invented your own. And for the average kid buying the toys, you came up with your own -- a (back)story that reflected your own tastes and fantasies. So for many of us, he became our favorite figure because he was what *we* wanted to be in the story -- a Gary Stu, if you will.

I've always liked Boba Fett, yet could never really give a reason why. I wasn't involved in any crazes over him, jut liked him.


My personal theory is that reaction to this hype is why Lucas had him die such a mockable death in "Jedi".

He's not dead...

[Jibar]

I always preferred Jango.
Jango was shown on screen to have some pretty bad ass qualities, such as defeating Coleman Trebor with a single blaster and no effort at all. All of Boba's coolness happened in the EU.


Are you referring to "Mr. R" or "Ms. K?"


"Mr. R" of course.
"Ms. K" was not powerful enough to fulfill the prophecy and as she said herself, nobody listened to her anyway.

[Admiral_Kelly]

Star Wars fans are funny - they do not find the movies enjoyably, so they need to either:

a) Revision them in their minds.
b) Read up on the Expanded Universe novels (which, although take place in the same setting, hardly ever have anything to do with the movies).
c) Argue endlessly about their favorite aspects and try to justify them.

When you get down to it, what is so great about Star Wars?

[RabbitHoleLost]

Star Wars fans are funny - they do not find the movies enjoyably, so they need to either:

a) Revision them in their minds.
b) Read up on the Expanded Universe novels (which, although take place in the same setting, hardly ever have anything to do with the movies).
c) Argue endlessly about their favorite aspects and try to justify them.

When you get down to it, what is so great about Star Wars?

The original Trilogy is a classical coming-of-age story, full of mythological, religious, and philosophical metaphors.
Plus, there are cool glowy swords.
However, I do agree with your points.
We Star Wars fans really are an odd bunch =/

In anycase, any faults I've ever found with the pre-trilogy have been already stated; horrendous acting and a bunch of junk thrown in that really had no place.

[averagejoe]

Star Wars fans are funny - they do not find the movies enjoyably, so they need to either:

a) Revision them in their minds.
b) Read up on the Expanded Universe novels (which, although take place in the same setting, hardly ever have anything to do with the movies).
c) Argue endlessly about their favorite aspects and try to justify them.

When you get down to it, what is so great about Star Wars?

Star Wars Fans Hate Star Wars. (http://www.jivemagazine.com/column.php?pid=3381)

Actually I did, and do, enjoy Empire, and, to a lesser extent, A New Hope, and even enjoyed the bits in Episode I where jedi were fighting. I try to pretend the EU doesn't exist; it is largely much worse than the prequel trilogies could hope to be. What's so great about Star Wars? The mystique, the legend, and all that stuff that makes DnDers want to play the same basic campaign over and over, just with different bells and whistles. It's very good at wrapping you up in this world and believing the myth, if only for a little while. It's almost a little embarrassing to admit, but I still have to suppress the desire to cheer when Luke turns off his targeting computer in A New Hope.

[The_Snark]

When you get down to it, what is so great about Star Wars?

It's a good framework for the three activities you outlined, of course. :smallsmile:

But more seriously (not that the above answer isn't true), because the original three tell an entertaining story, and because there's a certain charm to them. The stories wink at you and say, "Here's the classic Western saloon scene but full of aliens", and they put a mining city on a gas giant because it looks nice and figure they'll justify it later, and the scrolling intro likes to CAPITALIZE the IMPORTANT WORDS, and the Villain is over six feet tall and wears heavy black armor even in the shower and has the deepest voice known to man and wears a cape and even breathes ominously. It places style over things like consistency and logic. Then people fell in love with it, and wanted to talk about it, and since it's hard to talk about just style for very long they started to try and patch up the other parts, and it ends up a little different for everyone who tries.

Well. That was more than I intended to write, and hopefully it's at least a little coherent. As a postscript and brief nod to the actual thread topic, I feel like a large part of the problem with the prequels was that the story was a tragedy from the beginning. The original movies were fun. Pulling off a fun tragedy is possible (Empire Strikes Back is one, in a way), but it's hard.

[kamikasei]

Why does everyone think that limiting free speech is so evil? A lot of the world's problems would go away if we shut the idiots up.

Without getting into actual political discussion (I hope), the core of the idea is that if speech is not free, it's restricted. If it's restricted, it's restricted by someone. Thus, some person or group is deciding what is and is not okay to say. And if you give that power to a government, then a bad government will use it to insulate itself from criticism, and it will be harder to effect change and right injustices.


Are you referring to "Mr. R" or "Ms. K?"

I have a sudden desire to see a movie or series featuring Star Wars characters as Reservoir Dogs-style pseudonymous agents in dark suits. Hmmm, how many could you fit in without overlap?

[BRC]

It's a good framework for the three activities you outlined, of course. :smallsmile:

But more seriously (not that the above answer isn't true), because the original three tell an entertaining story, and because there's a certain charm to them. The stories wink at you and say, "Here's the classic Western saloon scene but full of aliens", and they put a mining city on a gas giant because it looks nice and figure they'll justify it later, and the scrolling intro likes to CAPITALIZE the IMPORTANT WORDS, and the Villain is over six feet tall and wears heavy black armor even in the shower and has the deepest voice known to man and wears a cape and even breathes ominously. It places style over things like consistency and logic. Then people fell in love with it, and wanted to talk about it, and since it's hard to talk about just style for very long they started to try and patch up the other parts, and it ends up a little different for everyone who tries.

Well. That was more than I intended to write, and hopefully it's at least a little coherent. As a postscript and brief nod to the actual thread topic, I feel like a large part of the problem with the prequels was that the story was a tragedy from the beginning. The original movies were fun. Pulling off a fun tragedy is possible (Empire Strikes Back is one, in a way), but it's hard.
And then the Prequals were mostly gameplay footage from Hack-n-slash video games with a few live action actors pasted in.

[Tirian]

My personal theory is that reaction to this hype is why Lucas had him die such a mockable death in "Jedi".

It's the other way around. Lucas wrote a slapstick death for Fett because tee hee wouldn't that be funny, and then later regretted the flippancy and allowed EU writers to stick him back in canon when he learned of the depth of fan sentiment.

[Telonius]

Replace Jar-Jar Binks with a Monkey. Because everything's better with monkeys (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/EverythingsBetterWithMonkeys).

[factotum]

101 ways to improve the Star Wars prequels? How about killing Jar Jar in 101 different and interestingly painful ways? :smallbiggrin:

[Muz]

A) Because of the amount of "FREEDOM EAKWALS GOOD!!!" propaganda Lucas put in RotS. We were always supposed to assume the Empire was a bad, bad thing without ever showing us why. (This just got worse after Lucas thought that putting a lot of anti-Bushisms in RotS was going to be great.)

Actually the rise of the Empire was based on historical instances of a democracy turning willingly into a dictatorship, such as the Roman emperors (especially relating to the Senate) and the rise of Hitler's Nazi party in Germany. Such events had already happened when George had the generalized backstory to the SW universe (again, see the Senate) in the late 70s/early 80s.

Now if you find parallels to the Bush Administration, that's your own judgement (and perhaps you should ask yourself why that is).

Getting back to only discussing the Star Wars universe only, however, as to the Empire not being evil at the end of ROTS, perhaps the Empire itself hadn't done much evil yet, but then it was only a few weeks old. Palpatine, however, pretty much orchestrated a galaxy-wide war that likely resulted in billions (if not trillions) of deaths just to get himself into a position of ultimate power. (Not to mention attempting the whole cultural genocide of the Jedi.) So he's DEFINITELY evil, and one can assume that a galaxy ruled by him won't exactly be the happiest place to be. Sort of a "this can't be good" kind of feeling rather than an outright "the Empire's evil!" thing. Me done talking now. :smallsmile:

[chiasaur11]

Replace Jar-Jar Binks with a Monkey. Because everything's better with monkeys (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/EverythingsBetterWithMonkeys).


I was thinking giant green star wars rabbit.

AKA Jaxxon

See link (http://bullyscomics.blogspot.com/search/label/giant%20green%20star%20wars%20rabbit).

[thegurullamen]

Now if you find parallels to the Bush Administration, that's your own judgement (and perhaps you should ask yourself why that is).

Getting back to only discussing the Star Wars universe only, however, as to the Empire not being evil at the end of ROTS, perhaps the Empire itself hadn't done much evil yet, but then it was only a few weeks old. Palpatine, however, pretty much orchestrated a galaxy-wide war that likely resulted in billions (if not trillions) of deaths just to get himself into a position of ultimate power. (Not to mention attempting the whole cultural genocide of the Jedi.) So he's DEFINITELY evil, and one can assume that a galaxy ruled by him won't exactly be the happiest place to be. Sort of a "this can't be good" kind of feeling rather than an outright "the Empire's evil!" thing. Me done talking now. :smallsmile:

Too bad political points are not allowed on these boards. Ah well; I agree to disagree, good sir.

I have to admit, you've almost got me here in your second paragraph. But, as others have pointed out, the extermination of the Jedi can be defended from a few standpoints, especially the "they're bringing down our gubment!" one. (It's obviously wrong as the later movies show, but we're trying to establish the evilness of Pally within the PT.) As for the whole Xanatos Gambit resulting in genocide, galactic war and widespread chaos and destruction...yeah, that's where my argument snags a mite. The best I can do is to fall back on the old Republic's-crumbling-maybe-this-will-make-it-stronger/survive argument. I mean, it got so bad at the beginning of the first movie that even Democracy Cheerleader Padme almost renounced the government entirely. Maybe Pally was trying to strengthen the galactic political structure by imperializing it like he did and the evil is a result of the old 18-years-of-power=insanity/need-mah-shoop-da-whoop-Deth-Starz!! thing.

[alexeduardo]

And then the Prequals were mostly gameplay footage from Hack-n-slash video games with a few live action actors pasted in.

True.

I, personally, would replace both gungans and ewoks with some sort of Native North Americans. Think about it, Apaches
IN SPACE!!

Also, a lil' bit of more real battles in RoTS and AoTC would be better. Not only a helluva lot of CGI stick figures shooting each other on the background, but something more thought out and realistic. Think SW: Republic Commando's first level.

[SmartAlec]

Maybe Pally was trying to strengthen the galactic political structure by imperializing it like he did.

Yes, that's likely what he believed. Because that's Sith doctrine to a tee. Weak government? Weak anything, for that matter? Shoot it in the head. Put one person in charge, doesn't matter what it takes. You can't get more Sith than that.

[Dervag]

Nowhere is this more clear than Boba Fett. This is pretty much a guy whose menace was that he walked across a set except that he did it wearing a ROCKET PACK with a GRAPPLE GUN attached to it. Holy crap! I saw that in the theater and spent the next three years dreaming about what he could do with it. And I can assure you that every one of those dreams was more cool than being instantly pwned by a blind man turning around with a pole in his hand.Although in real life, people do die in dumb ways like that a lot. It doesn't have a good place in movies, though.


Star Wars fans are funny - they do not find the movies enjoyably, so they need to either:

a) Revision them in their minds.
b) Read up on the Expanded Universe novels (which, although take place in the same setting, hardly ever have anything to do with the movies).
c) Argue endlessly about their favorite aspects and try to justify them.

When you get down to it, what is so great about Star Wars?When your tastes are still young, it's a lot of fun. Simple, archetypal story. Lots of cool food for thought- like thinking about what Boba Fett might be able to do with his jetpack and grapple gun, or what a Jedi might be able to do with telekinesis.

Then you get bored with the basics and want something a bit more refined, or more complex. You want better acting, or characters who accomplish more awesome feats on screen (because modern audiences have gotten used to that).

At that point, the movies lose their charm. But you still like all the ideas Star Wars gives you. You still think there's a lot of interesting stories to be told about Jedi knights or smugglers who can cross the galaxy in days or the rise of the Galactic Empire. And that's where the Expanded Universe and and the attempts to revise and redepict the universe of the movies come in. The EU authors cash in on the fact that a lot of people think there are way more stories to tell about the Star Wars universe than George Lucas has the time or the ability to tell.


Yes, that's likely what he believed. Because that's Sith doctrine to a tee. Weak government? Weak anything, for that matter? Shoot it in the head. Put one person in charge, doesn't matter what it takes. You can't get more Sith than that."Palpatine, speaking for Boskone."

Cookie for the reference. And if you know the reference, you'll know that Sith ideology in futuristic settings predates Lucas's work. For that matter, it predates Lucas, the person.

[mangosta71]

Maybe I'm remembering things wrong, but I thought that the conversion from the Republic to the Empire was peaceful. The war ended after the change, did it not? Thus it could be argued that it saved countless lives, which is generally seen as a good act.

[Corrupted One]

In my case it's because of the ridiculous plot holes it spawned. Retroactively.
I mean, come on... Vader and The Emperor(tm) cleansed the galaxy of all jedi... they just killed them...
Why not go on, extract all the midichlorians from their blood, put them into a syringe or two, jam 'em in and BAM - instagod. If your power in the force directly depends on the amount of some infestation of your blood system (as opposed to, say, thingies that thrive on force sensibility, so they would only be used as an indicator of jedi power rather than the origin of it...), Vader and the emperor should have been mightyier than all the sith lords and jedi from the EU combined.

That's what bugs me. The idiocy this explanation spawned in the BBEGs actions.



I always thought midichlorians were unique to each person. Like a blood type but instead of some people having the same everyone's is unique. That would explain alot.

[alexeduardo]

Maybe I'm remembering things wrong, but I thought that the conversion from the Republic to the Empire was peaceful. The war ended after the change, did it not? Thus it could be argued that it saved countless lives, which is generally seen as a good act.

Yeah, but you could also argue Hitler anded all the corruption by taking out all non-obedient politicians

[Mr. Scaly]

Maybe I'm remembering things wrong, but I thought that the conversion from the Republic to the Empire was peaceful. The war ended after the change, did it not? Thus it could be argued that it saved countless lives, which is generally seen as a good act.

The war ended after the conversion to Empire because Palpatine didn't need the Seperatists anymore. There only was a war in the first place because it suited his ambitions.

thegurullamen: actually Thrawn WAS active during the prequel trilogy. I highly recommend Zahn's 'Outbound Flight' for details.

alexeduardo: Gungans were Apaches. They took on a high tech droid army armed to the teeth, riding on the Naboo equivalent of horses. There was no Geronimo equivalent though.

[alexeduardo]

alexeduardo: Gungans were Apaches. They took on a high tech droid army armed to the teeth, riding on the Naboo equivalent of horses. There was no Geronimo equivalent though.

yes, but duck-kangaroo apaches at that. I mean, if humans are supposed to be "the most widespread race in the galaxy", why is it so unplausible to suppose that there might be primitives somewhere over the rainbow?

I guess what I'm trying to say is that tanned men with warpaint all over their faces would have been far better than either a teddy bear or a little girl's DnD character

[Mr. Scaly]

yes, but duck-kangaroo apaches at that. I mean, if humans are supposed to be "the most widespread race in the galaxy", why is it so unplausible to suppose that there might be primitives somewhere over the rainbow?

I guess what I'm trying to say is that tanned men with warpaint all over their faces would have been far better than either a teddy bear or a little girl's DnD character

Well, conceivably if humans are the most wide spread race in the galaxy they must have all come from somewhere. It's not likely that humans would evolve on more than one planet...humanoids obviously, but humans down tot he exact DNA? No way. So logically they would have had their technology up to a certain point by the time they spread out, at least advanced enough to support space flight and probably long range communications too, to keep in touch with each other. Apache-level technology would have been lost to humans long ago, though now that you mention it it would have been pretty cool.

[Texas_Ben]

So logically they would have had their technology up to a certain point by the time they spread out, at least advanced enough to support space flight and probably long range communications too, to keep in touch with each other.

Not necessarily. Say, for example, that it is the early days of interstellar travel, and a survey/exploration ship crashes or is otherwise stranded. This knocks out their long-range communication abilities and they are left to fend for themselves for a few hundred (or even a few thousand?) years until they are 'rediscovered'.
By that time they have had time to develop their own distinct culture- one which may well have remained quite primitive, depending on how hospitable conditions on the planet were.

Just saying, human primitives in the SW universe, while unlikely, is not impossible.

[Raistlin1040]

To be honest, I never had a problem with the prequal trilogy.

I think it's because my dad, Star Wars fan for life, wanted to hide me from these kinds of thoughts. He made me watch the films in chronological order. So, Phantom Menace was first, Attack of the Clones was second, ect. This meant that I grew familiar with the original characters (Anakin, Obi-Wan, Yoda, the Droids, ect.) and, being that I was like 6 when Phantom Menace came out, had no concept of "bad acting". I still don't see actors as bad usually, unless they're Keanu Reeves bad. And I admit, rewatching Clones and Revenge, Hayden Christianson can't act. Still, the story was fun for me, and I enjoyed it.

By the time I got around to watching A New Hope and The Empire Strikes Back, I was a Star Wars fan, and I didn't see them as any better or worse than the prequels. I complained about the bad special effects (I was movie-spoiled. Sue me.), but the plot was better.

Personally, I like all 6 movies. I think they're all pretty good. I don't see any of them as infallible, or perfect, or even just "really really really good".

So here's my take on the whole rabid Star Wars fans ripping on their own 'favorite' movies. I think that we like the story. It's good. Peasant without a good life is saved by heroes, becomes insanely powerful and good, falls from grace, becomes the most evil scum in the universe, only to be beaten by his son, following in his footsteps. That's a good plot. Anakin/Vader is a brilliant character. Han is a badass. Luke is pretty cool. That's a good story.

But there's always some level of "well it's good but...wouldn't it be better if [blank] was [character]? Or like if [movie] had [blank] in it?" In movies, and in Star Wars it got to the point where it becomes outright slamming "Oh, he can't act worth crap, he ruined the whole movie. And those damn Gungans. What the hell? Oh, and those two stupid lines of dialogue in the 7th scene, what was up with those? They sounded so fake!"

I mean seriously guys, you don't have to love the movie. You can hate it. That's fine. I know people who have perfectly good tastes, who just don't like Star Wars. But don't say you love it, and then turn around and give essays on how it could have been better. It is what it is, a good series.

[SmartAlec]

"Palpatine, speaking for Boskone."

Cookie for the reference. And if you know the reference, you'll know that Sith ideology in futuristic settings predates Lucas's work. For that matter, it predates Lucas, the person.

I'm aware of Star Wars's clear debts to the Lensman series. I think the point that I was trying to make is that although Palpatine likely truly does believe the Republic needs to be put out of its' misery, I don't think you can claim that motivation is even slightly benign.

[Mr. Scaly]

Not necessarily. Say, for example, that it is the early days of interstellar travel, and a survey/exploration ship crashes or is otherwise stranded. This knocks out their long-range communication abilities and they are left to fend for themselves for a few hundred (or even a few thousand?) years until they are 'rediscovered'.
By that time they have had time to develop their own distinct culture- one which may well have remained quite primitive, depending on how hospitable conditions on the planet were.

Just saying, human primitives in the SW universe, while unlikely, is not impossible.

Okay, put that way that does make a bit of sense. I have trouble imagining that a survey ship would have enough of a population to start a whole new society, even over time but I guess it's possible.

[SmartAlec]

Replacing the Gungans with primitive humans would still be a little odd; in a galaxy where acceptance of all manner of other species is commonplace, the people of Naboo would look like complete scumbags in feuding with and staying apart from a primitive tribe of their own species.

[thegurullamen]

I'm aware of Star Wars's clear debts to the Lensman series. I think the point that I was trying to make is that although Palpatine likely truly does believe the Republic needs to be put out of its' misery, I don't think you can claim that motivation is even slightly benign.

It's not an argument that Pally was benign so much as not-so-malevolent, which was sort of the entirety of his character. For once the D&D alignment system proves useful: he obviously wasn't Good, but he could have been Lawful Neutral.


Yes, that's likely what he believed. Because that's Sith doctrine to a tee. Weak government? Weak anything, for that matter? Shoot it in the head. Put one person in charge, doesn't matter what it takes. You can't get more Sith than that.

Rofl. Not sure why, but it elicited a laugh from me.


The war ended after the conversion to Empire because Palpatine didn't need the Seperatists anymore. There only was a war in the first place because it suited his ambitions.

thegurullamen: actually Thrawn WAS active during the prequel trilogy. I highly recommend Zahn's 'Outbound Flight' for details.

A) Crap. I never should have started this discussion. I haven't read a SW novel in a decade. A freaking decade. I was happy about this fact. Now, all of a sudden, I realize how stupid I was when I read the Thrawn trilogy and now I have to go back and marvel at the Xanatosery that is Thrawn's brain. F***, f***, f***, f***!!!!!!!!
B) The war continued for a little while after the establishment of the empire. It's hard to stop a war, even if you're the leader. Small pockets of soldiers will always stay loyal to whatever mission they were on out of hatred towards the enemy. (Actually, this probably isn't true. Except this is a movie series based in a galactic political network. It's not hard to believe that this would happen. Hell, it's hard to believe this wouldn't happen to a full half of the enlisted enemy troops. God bless over-the-top sci-fi military conflicts.)
C) Hell, another front opened up soon afterward: the Clone Rebellion. It's the reason why the Empire turned towards trained citizens over clones in the eighteen year gap between trilogies.


I mean, it got so bad at the beginning of the first movie that even Democracy Cheerleader Padme almost renounced the government entirely. Maybe Pally was trying to strengthen the galactic political structure by imperializing it like he did and the evil is a result of the old 18-years-of-power=insanity/need-mah-shoop-da-whoop-Deth-Starz!! thing.

This made me laugh, too.

...that's right! I quoted myself in a non-referential way and then complimented myself! Take that, internet forum (and regular) etiquette!! (Evil laugh!)

[TheElfLord]

For me the fact that Palpatine slaughtered every Jedi he could get his hands on was a pretty big sign that the Empire wouldn't be run with a velvet hand. And no, they weren't plotting to overthrow him. They were going to remove a Sith from power not assume control of the government.

Edit: Though admittedly most of the real serious examples of evility come from EU.

I'm afraid I can't agree with your argument that the Jedi were not planing to overthrow the Chancellor


Ki-Adi-Mundi: If he does not give up his emergency powers after the destruction of Grievous, he must be removed from office.
Mace Windu: The Jedi Council will have to take control of the Senate to ensure a peaceful transition. Yoda: Hmm. To a dark place this line of thought will take us. Great care we must take.

The Jedi were planning to remove the legitimately elected leader of the Republic and were prepared to step even (even if only temporarily) to control the Senate. Anakin confronts Mace in the middle of an attempted coup against Palpatine, and oddly enough, Palpatine is telling the truth when he says, "the Jedi are taking over."

The thing that really gets me about this is that the Jedi are staging a coup for what amounts to religious intolerance. It is never stated that it is illegal for a Sith to be the supreme Chancellor but I presume that since everyone thought the Sith were extinct no one thought to make it a law. The Jedi attacked Palpatine because he belongs to a different religion/philosophy.

Not only did the Jedi plan a coup, but Yoda at least realized that they weren't standing on sold moral ground by doing so. He had reservations about the action.

[Setra]

I'm afraid I can't agree with your argument that the Jedi were not planing to overthrow the Chancellor
And the fact he had children killed is also justified by this?

[TheElfLord]

B) The war continued for a little while after the establishment of the empire. It's hard to stop a war, even if you're the leader. Small pockets of soldiers will always stay loyal to whatever mission they were on out of hatred towards the enemy. (Actually, this probably isn't true. Except this is a movie series based in a galactic political network. It's not hard to believe that this would happen. Hell, it's hard to believe this wouldn't happen to a full half of the enlisted enemy troops. God bless over-the-top sci-fi military conflicts.)

It's a lot easier to stop a war when one side's troops are robots that you can shut off.

[thegurullamen]

And the fact he had children killed is also justified by this?

................sort of. Not in any legal, ethical or moral way, but from a political standpoint, it was necessary. These were kids raised by the enemy, which in itself isn't a bad thing. That they were raised in arts that would make them unto individual armies and that said training was in a form of the art that would forever set them in opposition to the elected leader of the Republipire is what made them enemies to the "public good". If political stability was to be maintained, the Jedi had to die and that means all of them. Hell, that the Emperor didn't get Obi and Luke in the end ultimately led to his downfall and the god-knows-how-many-years political struggle between the Imperial remnant and the New Republic which killed god-knows-how-many people.


It's a lot easier to stop a war when one side's troops are robots that you can shut off.

Well, yeah, but he didn't have direct control over that lever/switch. His lieutenants did and they could easily have carried on if they needed/wanted to. Besides, how frightening is it that at any given time, someone could reactivate the bastards and have a sudden army at their disposal without any raising/training time?

[TheElfLord]

And the fact he had children killed is also justified by this?

I'm not sure what you are getting at since your sentence makes no sense. If you are trying to say that it was okay for the Jedi to attempt a coup since Palpatine ordered the killing of Jedi children, that action takes place after the attempted coup and so has no bearing on the Jedi's actions.

And regardless of whether they were justified in trying to seize control of the government, they were tying to take over the government, which Mr. Scaly denied.

If you are asking if the Jedi's coup justified Palpatine ordering the death of the Jedi children, I would say no, but as I pointed out, it has little relevance to the argument I was refuting

[turkishproverb]

I'm afraid I can't agree with your argument that the Jedi were not planing to overthrow the Chancellor.

was that in the book? I don't remember it from the movie..

[thegurullamen]

was that in the book? I don't remember it from the movie.

No, it's definitely in the movie.

[turkishproverb]

No, it's definitely in the movie.

Ah. didn't think so. Guess i was wrong.

Overriding the senate is the real issue there, in either event.

As to taking out palpatine itself being illegal, The Jedi's actual charter is pretty vague from what we're given. it is possible they were legally allowed to arrest him for his crimes involving the war (such as running both sides. Heck, there might even be anti-sith laws) and take him into custody. We're just not given the info to be entirely sure.


EDIT: Heck, it IS even possible that they would be legally allowed to do so in such an event (IE: Interim command until new chancellor chosen) and it was just that Yoda thought the Jedi shouldn't have that much power over the senate.

[Texas_Ben]

The thing that really gets me about this is that the Jedi are staging a coup for what amounts to religious intolerance. It is never stated that it is illegal for a Sith to be the supreme Chancellor but I presume that since everyone thought the Sith were extinct no one thought to make it a law. The Jedi attacked Palpatine because he belongs to a different religion/philosophy.


"Religious intolerance"... "Different religion/philosophy"...
...?
You can frame it that way if you like, but it's not like the poor sith were being oppressed by the bigoted Jedi council. We're talking about a group that has a long and illustrious history of being magnificent bastards and generally being perfectly willing to take a piss on the rest of the universe if it benefits them. The Jedi are supposed to maintain stability and order--Palpatine was a threat to stability and order.

I mean making an appeal to political correctness is kind of ridiculous when 5 minutes later he's in their base killin' their dudes. For, as you pointed out, no better reason than "religious intolerance".

[Mr. Scaly]

I'm afraid I can't agree with your argument that the Jedi were not planing to overthrow the Chancellor



The Jedi were planning to remove the legitimately elected leader of the Republic and were prepared to step even (even if only temporarily) to control the Senate. Anakin confronts Mace in the middle of an attempted coup against Palpatine, and oddly enough, Palpatine is telling the truth when he says, "the Jedi are taking over."

The thing that really gets me about this is that the Jedi are staging a coup for what amounts to religious intolerance. It is never stated that it is illegal for a Sith to be the supreme Chancellor but I presume that since everyone thought the Sith were extinct no one thought to make it a law. The Jedi attacked Palpatine because he belongs to a different religion/philosophy.

Not only did the Jedi plan a coup, but Yoda at least realized that they weren't standing on sold moral ground by doing so. He had reservations about the action.

From the wording of the conversation it sounds like a bunch of talk to me. Window and Ki Adi Mundi were serious I have no doubt, but in all the movies there was no evidence of them actually planning it through. And I know for a fact that the Jedi Code specifically forbids Jedi from ruling. Hence Yoda's comment about taking great care. So they literally 'couldn't' take over the Republic, not even as an interim council or whatever.



A) Crap. I never should have started this discussion. I haven't read a SW novel in a decade. A freaking decade. I was happy about this fact. Now, all of a sudden, I realize how stupid I was when I read the Thrawn trilogy and now I have to go back and marvel at the Xanatosery that is Thrawn's brain. F***, f***, f***, f***!!!!!!!!

Come now, don't you want to join the Dark Side?

[turkishproverb]

From the wording of the conversation it sounds like a bunch of talk to me. Window and Ki Adi Mundi were serious I have no doubt, but in all the movies there was no evidence of them actually planning it through. And I know for a fact that the Jedi Code specifically forbids Jedi from ruling. Hence Yoda's comment about taking great care. So they literally 'couldn't' take over the Republic, not even as an interim council or whatever.

Is that bit of Jedi code from the movies or EU? just curious. Course, frankly my theory for how anikin brought balance to the force still has a little to do with the fact the code had become so darned severe it was almost asking the jedi to have problems.

to quote wookiepedia:


The refined version established by Odan-Urr is perhaps the best known:

There is no emotion, there is peace.
There is no ignorance, there is knowledge.
There is no passion, there is serenity.
(There is no chaos, there is harmony.)(*)
There is no death, there is the Force.
—The Jedi Code (Based on the meditations of Odan-Urr)

(*)The fourth line "There is no chaos, there is harmony," is removed in some Jedi texts

This is in fact a corrupted version of the jedi text, leading to the problems the jedi had. The original text read


One of the key portions of the Code was a four-line mantra. Several versions of the mantra exist, though the older version was:

Emotion, yet peace.
Ignorance, yet knowledge.
Passion, yet serenity.
Chaos, yet harmony.
Death, yet the Force.

something that suggests all things are needed. Chaos (IE FREEDOM) is a part of Harmony, ignorance leads to knowledge, as one must not strive for knowledge too hard if one wishes to acquire it (a buddhist concept as well) Emotion is not in and of itself non conductive to peace, and passion and serenity were able to coexist.

Note this is not the same thing as saying the dark side and sith are necessary, as it notably avoid Darkness, yet light or anything similar.


Other tenants were added to the jedi code past the horrific corruptions of Odan Urr, causing more specific rules to be set in place, often drastically unnecessary or not truly part of the code.



And it is still possible that REPUBLIC LAW allowed the jedi to rule, even if the (current, horribly corrupted) JEDI CODE did not.

[Dervag]

Maybe I'm remembering things wrong, but I thought that the conversion from the Republic to the Empire was peaceful. The war ended after the change, did it not? Thus it could be argued that it saved countless lives, which is generally seen as a good act.The public would think so. Of course, the war ended because Palpatine wanted it to end, just as it began and continued because he wanted it to begin and continue.

The Empire deserves no credit for the good outcome. It only happened because Palpatine decided to stop committing a horrible evil now that it was politically and strategically convenient to do so.


I'm aware of Star Wars's clear debts to the Lensman series. I think the point that I was trying to make is that although Palpatine likely truly does believe the Republic needs to be put out of its' misery, I don't think you can claim that motivation is even slightly benign.I agree with you. I was just trying to characterize it. Sorry. Didn't mean to offend.


................sort of. Not in any legal, ethical or moral way, but from a political standpoint, it was necessary. These were kids raised by the enemy, which in itself isn't a bad thing. That they were raised in arts that would make them unto individual armies and that said training was in a form of the art that would forever set them in opposition to the elected leader of the Republipire is what made them enemies to the "public good".Not really. The very young Jedi trainees weren't likely to become threats to the Republipire without the masters to train and organize them. Frankly, most of them would end up falling to the Dark Side anyway; that seems to be the fate of lone Force adepts.


Well, yeah, but he didn't have direct control over that lever/switch. His lieutenants did and they could easily have carried on if they needed/wanted to. Besides, how frightening is it that at any given time, someone could reactivate the bastards and have a sudden army at their disposal without any raising/training time?Which is why you start feeding CIS battledroids into blast furnaces the moment the shutdown occurs.

The most popular program ever, I imagine. It'd be propaganda gold.

"Today, Emperor Palpatine cut the ribbon on Coruscant General Hospital, a giant medical facility made from melted down Separatist droid fighters..."

[thegurullamen]

"Today, Emperor Palpatine cut the ribbon on Coruscant General Hospital, a giant medical facility made from melted down Separatist droid fighters..."

I can imagine some old, run down clone trooper walking up to that building, kicking a random door and saying, "You took my youth from me, you metal bastards!"

[SmartAlec]

I agree with you. I was just trying to characterize it. Sorry. Didn't mean to offend.

No offence at all. :smallcool: Darn this Internet poker face.

[Mr. Scaly]

Is that bit of Jedi code from the movies or EU? just curious. Course, frankly my theory for how anikin brought balance to the force still has a little to do with the fact the code had become so darned severe it was almost asking the jedi to have problems.

to quote wookiepedia:



This is in fact a corrupted version of the jedi text, leading to the problems the jedi had. The original text read



something that suggests all things are needed. Chaos (IE FREEDOM) is a part of Harmony, ignorance leads to knowledge, as one must not strive for knowledge too hard if one wishes to acquire it (a buddhist concept as well) Emotion is not in and of itself non conductive to peace, and passion and serenity were able to coexist.

Note this is not the same thing as saying the dark side and sith are necessary, as it notably avoid Darkness, yet light or anything similar.


Other tenants were added to the jedi code past the horrific corruptions of Odan Urr, causing more specific rules to be set in place, often drastically unnecessary or not truly part of the code.



And it is still possible that REPUBLIC LAW allowed the jedi to rule, even if the (current, horribly corrupted) JEDI CODE did not.

From the EU though they might have mentioned it it one of the films. I don't recall exactly, but Obi wan and C'baoth had arguments about it.

Old and corrupted the code may have been, but C'baoth was a perfect example of why Jedi shouldn't rule...power corrupts and leads to the Dark Side among other things. His argument was that since Jedi can touch the Force they're the ONLY ones qualified to lead people.

It's always been an important part of the EU that Jedi serve others, not the other way around.


As for the Balance part, George once said:

"Anakin Skywalker, a young boy who is destined to be a significant player in bringing balance back to the Force and to the Republic. [...]

Which brings us up to the films 4, 5, and 6, in which Anakin's offspring redeem him and allow him to fulfill the prophecy where he brings Balance to the Force by doing away with the Sith and getting rid of evil in the universe."

While Anakin may have brought literal balance to the Force, it's not what George had in mind...else why would Luke have to redeem his father's efforts by getting rid of evil?

I've always seen the Jedi code as being a comprehensive volume of codes and ethics that the Jedi needed to follow, inspired by the mantra. There are miscellaneous tenets not included, like A Jedi Master will not have more than one apprentice, or A Jedi will not kill an unarmed opponent.

[TheElfLord]

From the wording of the conversation it sounds like a bunch of talk to me. Window and Ki Adi Mundi were serious I have no doubt, but in all the movies there was no evidence of them actually planning it through. And I know for a fact that the Jedi Code specifically forbids Jedi from ruling. Hence Yoda's comment about taking great care. So they literally 'couldn't' take over the Republic, not even as an interim council or whatever.


Well they did attempt their coup attempt, and had started that attempt even before Anakin brough the news that Palpatine was a Sith (Mace tells him what they are going to do before Anakin gets a chance to tell his news). While I don't know how much planning the Jedi did, they actually did try a coup and failed.

[alexeduardo]

Not necessarily. Say, for example, that it is the early days of interstellar travel, and a survey/exploration ship crashes or is otherwise stranded. This knocks out their long-range communication abilities and they are left to fend for themselves for a few hundred (or even a few thousand?) years until they are 'rediscovered'.
By that time they have had time to develop their own distinct culture- one which may well have remained quite primitive, depending on how hospitable conditions on the planet were.

Just saying, human primitives in the SW universe, while unlikely, is not impossible.

sorry if this was already rebuffed long ago.

but I agree 100% with this dude right here. I mean, think of the wasted posibilities

[turkishproverb]

From the EU though they might have mentioned it it one of the films. I don't recall exactly, but Obi wan and C'baoth had arguments about it.

Old and corrupted the code may have been, but C'baoth was a perfect example of why Jedi shouldn't rule...power corrupts and leads to the Dark Side among other things. His argument was that since Jedi can touch the Force they're the ONLY ones qualified to lead people.

It's always been an important part of the EU that Jedi serve others, not the other way around.


As for the Balance part, George once said:

"Anakin Skywalker, a young boy who is destined to be a significant player in bringing balance back to the Force and to the Republic. [...]

Which brings us up to the films 4, 5, and 6, in which Anakin's offspring redeem him and allow him to fulfill the prophecy where he brings Balance to the Force by doing away with the Sith and getting rid of evil in the universe."

While Anakin may have brought literal balance to the Force, it's not what George had in mind...else why would Luke have to redeem his father's efforts by getting rid of evil?

I've always seen the Jedi code as being a comprehensive volume of codes and ethics that the Jedi needed to follow, inspired by the mantra. There are miscellaneous tenets not included, like A Jedi Master will not have more than one apprentice, or A Jedi will not kill an unarmed opponent.

Which C'baoth? Jorus or Joruus? :smallwink:

I never said the Jedi should rule, just that the true code didn't say all the things that you think it did. Frankly, I think Yoda's comment had alot to do with the fact a jedi ruling was a bad idea.


AS to your bringing up the "WORD OF GOD" I have to admit it's a little hard to argue with on principle, although the "getting rid of the evil in the universe" line is rather gigglable when you consider just how many of the evils you've seen weren't killed off (all the non fett bounty hunters for example)

TO say nothing of the fact that George's word of god changes alot from day to day (origionally one of vader's arms was still organtic, for example)...


Then again, once you open it up to the EU, I'd argue word of god becomes less significant, as god was involved significantly less in creation of parts of the universe.

As to what the Jedi code is, again I think that's a matter of opinion.

For me, at its core, the original tenants, before the horrific modifications of that one misguided fool, make up the Jedi code. Anything afterward is just commentary and interpretations on how to execute it.


EDIT: And just for the record, a proper ruler SHOULD serve his people, not the other way around.


Well they did attempt their coup attempt, and had started that attempt even before Anakin brough the news that Palpatine was a Sith (Mace tells him what they are going to do before Anakin gets a chance to tell his news). While I don't know how much planning the Jedi did, they actually did try a coup and failed.

Can't be too sure. It IS possible that they were going to question him or try to "convince" him to leave power, or even that there was a law on the books. Hard to say, and I am streaking it a bit I admit. But when they did try to arrest him it was probbaly legit as he was the leader of the other side in a war which was still *technically* going on.


sorry if this was already rebuffed long ago.

but I agree 100% with this dude right here. I mean, think of the wasted posibilities

Erm, so where should they draw the line? Way have Chewbacca be an alien then? Or Ackbar?

I get what your saying, I just think its a bit of a weak argument.

[SmartAlec]

While Anakin may have brought literal balance to the Force, it's not what George had in mind...else why would Luke have to redeem his father's efforts by getting rid of evil?

I may have misread this, but I had the impression that it was Anakin doing away with the evil, not Luke. Luke helped his father return to the right frame of mind to do it, but Anakin didn't fulfil the prophecy until he killed the Emperor, killing himself in the process.

[TheElfLord]

Can't be too sure. It IS possible that they were going to question him or try to "convince" him to leave power, or even that there was a law on the books. Hard to say, and I am streaking it a bit I admit. But when they did try to arrest him it was probbaly legit as he was the leader of the other side in a war which was still *technically* going on.


I suppose it is possible they weren't prepared for a violent action before Anakin's news, but...


Anakin Skywalker: Master Windu, I must talk to you.
Mace Windu: Not now Skywalker. We have just received word that Obi-Wan has destroyed General Grievous. We're on our way to make sure the Chancellor returns emergency powers back to the Senate.

That's the relevant line from the movie. Taken in context with the conversation I quoted earlier about taking over the Senate it seems to me like Windu was prepared to take violent action before he knew Palpatine was a Sith Lord.

Now I'm going to go out on a bit of a limb here with my next bit, but I think knowing Palpatine was controlling the Separatists is confusing audience information with Character information. From just the 3 movies, what evidence do the Jedi have that Sidious is in charge? (This is also an honest question, there may be some obvious reason I can't recall at the moment) They know Dooku and Grevious are the leaders of the Separatists, and suspect from ancient history that there is another Sith Lord out there, but they don't have a direct connection between Palpatine and the Separatists. Given the Sith reputation for treachery (Sidious, Malik, and Vader all betrayed their masters just to start the list) it would to me at least be plausible that the Seperatist movement was just Dooku's plot against his former master.

It is only when audience information about who Palpatine is and what he will become is added in that the Jedi coup attempt gains legitimacy and audience support.

All in all it is a brilliant stroke of manipulation. Palpatine manipulates the Jedi into striking first, thus legitimatizing his purge of them. If the Jedi had not rushed into action outside of normal procedures the establishment of the Empire would have been much harder. Heck, even if they would have told all their members throughout the galaxy what they were doing the order would have had a better chance of survival.


On a completely different note, I would give the Jedi's opponents in the Clone Wars a much less sympathetic cause. It's hard support the Jedi when they are fighting against a people whose position is, "The Republic is collapsing and we don't want to be a part of it anymore" While it doesn't make the Jedi seem like bad guys, they certainly don't look like good guys. You would think true champions of peace and order would be brokering a deal where dissenting systems could peacefully succeed instead of destroying countless lives keeping them where they don't want to be.

[turkishproverb]

I suppose it is possible they weren't prepared for a violent action before Anakin's news, but...

Yea, I'm just saying his "Make sure" could have meant alot of things, even that they were going to appeal to the senate or some such. Although I admit...


That's the relevant line from the movie. Taken in context with the conversation I quoted earlier about taking over the Senate it seems to me like Windu was prepared to take violent action before he knew Palpatine was a Sith Lord.

This does cause a problem when combined with the previous line.

Now I'm going to go out on a bit of a limb here with my next bit, but I think knowing Palpatine was controlling the Separatists is confusing audience information with Character information. From just the 3 movies, what evidence do the Jedi have that Sidious is in charge? (This is also an honest question, there may be some obvious reason I can't recall at the moment) They know Dooku and Grevious are the leaders of the Separatists, and suspect from ancient history that there is another Sith Lord out there, but they don't have a direct connection between Palpatine and the Separatists. Given the Sith reputation for treachery (Sidious, Malik, and Vader all betrayed their masters just to start the list) it would to me at least be plausible that the Seperatist movement was just Dooku's plot against his former master.

It is only when audience information about who Palpatine is and what he will become is added in that the Jedi coup attempt gains legitimacy and audience support.

My brain hurts. I mean once they DID go do it, after hearing from skywalker, what they did as far as taking Palpatine out of power would have been legal as an arrest (had it succeeded) and not the described vigilantiism


All in all it is a brilliant stroke of manipulation. Palpatine manipulates the Jedi into striking first, thus legitimatizing his purge of them. If the Jedi had not rushed into action outside of normal procedures the establishment of the Empire would have been much harder. Heck, even if they would have told all their members throughout the galaxy what they were doing the order would have had a better chance of survival.

oh I agree, except that I think they did have a legitimate cause, legally (if republic law has ANYTHING remotely resembling fraud or treason laws) for arresting him and taking him out of power by the time they did it (as opposed to before they did it and were simply considering it our even outright going to do it)

Palpy just used the claim they didn't have a reason afterward.



On a completely different note, I would give the Jedi's opponents in the Clone Wars a much less sympathetic cause. It's hard support the Jedi when they are fighting against a people whose position is, "The Republic is collapsing and we don't want to be a part of it anymore" While it doesn't make the Jedi seem like bad guys, they certainly don't look like good guys. You would think true champions of peace and order would be brokering a deal where dissenting systems could peacefully succeed instead of destroying countless lives keeping them where they don't want to be.

Actually, I find it funny the palpatine controlled seperatist movement actually:

A: HAD many non clone/droid troops volunteer for service
B: Slogan "One Being One VOTE"

If they were actually legitimate it would have been hard to argue about. Thing is the jedi had reason to suspect things from early on, given the presence of Dooku.

[TheElfLord]

My brain hurts. I mean once they DID go do it, after hearing from skywalker, what they did as far as taking Palpatine out of power would have been legal as an arrest (had it succeeded) and not the described vigilantiism


oh I agree, except that I think they did have a legitimate cause, legally (if republic law has ANYTHING remotely resembling fraud or treason laws) for arresting him and taking him out of power by the time they did it (as opposed to before they did it and were simply considering it our even outright going to do it)

I guess it comes down to if the Jedi have a legal abilty to arrest teh Chancellor in the event that he commits a crime. Some countries, I believe Turkey is an example, gives the military the leagal abilty to overthrow the government if they step outside certain bounds. Other countries don't. The Jedi also seem to occupy this weird independent but still in the military role that further compounds things.

In the end we are not told that the Jedi have the right to arrest the Chancellor, but we are not told they don't have the right. It's really up to the individual viewers to decide if the Jedi are acting within their authority or if they are stepping out of it.





If they were actually legitimate it would have been hard to argue about. Thing is the jedi had reason to suspect things from early on, given the presence of Dooku.

I'm not sure this was the case. For once IMDB has failed me for finding the exact quote, but early in Attack of the Clones Anakin mentions Dooku and Obi-Wan dismisses the former Jedi as just a politician. None of the Jedi are even investigating Dooku's activities. Obi-Wan is tracing the hit on Padma and inadvertently discovers Dooku's involvement almost at the end of the movie. The Jedi never thought Dooku would betray them and were not suspecious of him at all. They didn't suspect him of being a Sith until after the battle on Geonosis.

[turkishproverb]

I guess it comes down to if the Jedi have a legal abilty to arrest teh Chancellor in the event that he commits a crime. Some countries, I believe Turkey is an example, gives the military the leagal abilty to overthrow the government if they step outside certain bounds. Other countries don't. The Jedi also seem to occupy this weird independent but still in the military role that further compounds things.

In the end we are not told that the Jedi have the right to arrest the Chancellor, but we are not told they don't have the right. It's really up to the individual viewers to decide if the Jedi are acting within their authority or if they are stepping out of it.

Remember "As you know, our blockade is perfectly legal?" That suggests jedi have police powers. IN which case, unless the chancellor is IMMUNE TO REPUBLIC LAW chances are he could be arrested for Fraud and Treason.

I wasn't talking about what they would do to handle the transition in this case, I JUST meant the arrest itself.


I'm not sure this was the case. For once IMDB has failed me for finding the exact quote, but early in Attack of the Clones Anakin mentions Dooku and Obi-Wan dismisses the former Jedi as just a politician. None of the Jedi are even investigating Dooku's activities. Obi-Wan is tracing the hit on Padma and inadvertently discovers Dooku's involvement almost at the end of the movie. The Jedi never thought Dooku would betray them and were not suspecious of him at all. They didn't suspect him of being a Sith until after the battle on Geonosis.

Yea, but they weren't nearly as heavily involved in the war before Dooku. Besides that, I was under the impression that they knew the Trade Federation was leaning towards the new separatist movement and as such suspected sith involvement.


EDIT: Huh, looks like Darth's and Droids (http://www.darthsanddroids.net/episodes/0146.html) Agrees with one of my two interlocking theories

[Mr. Scaly]

Which C'baoth? Jorus or Joruus? :smallwink:

I never said the Jedi should rule, just that the true code didn't say all the things that you think it did. Frankly, I think Yoda's comment had alot to do with the fact a jedi ruling was a bad idea.


AS to your bringing up the "WORD OF GOD" I have to admit it's a little hard to argue with on principle, although the "getting rid of the evil in the universe" line is rather gigglable when you consider just how many of the evils you've seen weren't killed off (all the non fett bounty hunters for example)

TO say nothing of the fact that George's word of god changes alot from day to day (origionally one of vader's arms was still organtic, for example)...


Then again, once you open it up to the EU, I'd argue word of god becomes less significant, as god was involved significantly less in creation of parts of the universe.

As to what the Jedi code is, again I think that's a matter of opinion.

For me, at its core, the original tenants, before the horrific modifications of that one misguided fool, make up the Jedi code. Anything afterward is just commentary and interpretations on how to execute it.


EDIT: And just for the record, a proper ruler SHOULD serve his people, not the other way around.


Both actually...though one was insane they used exactly the same arguments. :smallbiggrin:

I didn't say you said they should rule...did I? I brought up the point as an argument against the Jedi planning to overthrow the chancellor.

Personally I've never thought of the bounty hunters as inherently evil, but I see your point. However one could see the quest to eliminate evil is akin to a personal struggle to better yourself and serve the people of the galaxy. Which...admittedly kind of takes a lot of the mystique out of the phrase Chosen One... >_>

In most series I'd agree about Word of God. But from what I understand Lucas has to personally agree to anything the authors would want to do.

You'll get no argument from me on the last parts at all.

[turkishproverb]

Both actually...though one was insane they used exactly the same arguments. :smallbiggrin:

:smalltongue:

Priceless


I didn't say you said they should rule...did I? I brought up the point as an argument against the Jedi planning to overthrow the chancellor.

No, you didn't, I jsut thought you might have misinterpreted what I said.


Personally I've never thought of the bounty hunters as inherently evil, but I see your point. However one could see the quest to eliminate evil is akin to a personal struggle to better yourself and serve the people of the galaxy. Which...admittedly kind of takes a lot of the mystique out of the phrase Chosen One... >_>

1 Word: Bossk. :smallcool:

But yea, I'm just saying that it's a comparison that even JUST with the movies doesn't work.


In most series I'd agree about Word of God. But from what I understand Lucas has to personally agree to anything the authors would want to do.


Yea, Lucasfilm say he does (I'm not so sure, given what HE says about the books etc) which muddles things even more.

[Storm Bringer]

The Jedi also seem to occupy this weird independent but still in the military role that further compounds things.

as far as my knoweldge goes, it's appears that the republic at the time of the prequel did not have standing armed forces (hence the importance of the clone army in Ep II, a ready made and fully equipped force that was available just when one was needed) The Jedi (who, in the EU, were amoung the founders of the republic, which would explain their odd legal position) act as diplomats/troubleshooters for the republic, possibly using the private armies that existed (such as the droid armies of the trade federation) if they needed some mucsle. The appear to have some form of police powers, as evidenced by their role in Ep II, where they investigate a high-level assassination atemmpt, and arrest a suspect in the middle of a crowed bar with no challenge to their authority to do so. Mace Windu explictly defines the Jedi as "Keepers of the Peace, not soldiers".

In my mind, they are best seen as a quasi-governmental body. part of 'the establshment' and part of the apperatus of government, but not actaully part of the Republics government.



View Post
I guess it comes down to if the Jedi have a legal abilty to arrest teh Chancellor in the event that he commits a crime. Some countries, I believe Turkey is an example, gives the military the leagal abilty to overthrow the government if they step outside certain bounds. Other countries don't.

inrestingly, the army of turkey not only has this power to remove the government, but has actaully exercised it.

twice.

and then, even more intrestingly, handed power back to a democratically elected government. which goes to show that the turkish have smart generals.

but, back to the point, I think that when Mace Windu walked in the door of Palps office, he was probably intending to overstep any legal powers he might have had.

considering he would have summarily executed palpatine if anakin hadn't intervened, specifically because he knew that he couldn't get Palpatine convicted using due process, it's kinda moot point wether he had the legal power to arrest him.

[alexeduardo]

Erm, so where should they draw the line? Way have Chewbacca be an alien then? Or Ackbar?

I get what your saying, I just think its a bit of a weak argument.

Well, I think Ackbar should've been anything but a fish.

But this thread is about how to fix the prequels, and putting apaches in Naboo is how I'd fix it

[mangosta71]

considering he would have summarily executed palpatine if anakin hadn't intervened, specifically because he knew that he couldn't get Palpatine convicted using due process, it's kinda moot point wether he had the legal power to arrest him.

Regardless of any authority the Jedi Council may have had, execution is expressly forbidden by the Jedi code (see Anakin's response to Palpatine's urging to kill Dooku at the beginning of Ep3).

[turkishproverb]

Regardless of any authority the Jedi Council may have had, execution is expressly forbidden by the Jedi code (see Anakin's response to Palpatine's urging to kill Dooku at the beginning of Ep3).

NOT according to the unaltered Jedi code. Merely a severely corrupted version of it. See my previous posts.


As to the execution, he DID only try to do that AFTER Palpatine demonstrated his force capabilities, which may have implied he simply thought no one could HOLD him.


Well, I think Ackbar should've been anything but a fish.

But this thread is about how to fix the prequels, and putting apaches in Naboo is how I'd fix it


Now I wish Ackbar's people had been on Naboo. :smalltongue:

[Mr. Scaly]

:smalltongue:

Priceless

Heh. And that's why the Jedi council is supposed to appoint masters...as a screening process for lunatics.


No, you didn't, I jsut thought you might have misinterpreted what I said.

Ah, well okay then.


1 Word: Bossk. :smallcool:

But yea, I'm just saying that it's a comparison that even JUST with the movies doesn't work.

Maybe what it means is that with an organised Sith order lurking behind the scenes there could never be a real balance in the Force since the Jedi wanted to let it guide them in its actions while the Sith intended to control it to their own purposes. If that's the case Anakin did end up being the one who brought balance to the Force by eventually destroying the organised Sith (himself and Palpatine) but Luke also did it by redeeming his father?



Yea, Lucasfilm say he does (I'm not so sure, given what HE says about the books etc) which muddles things even more.

It could be worse. The EU could be made entirely of fanfiction instead of recognised authors.


On a side note, speaking of Ackbar I think that the Mon Cal homeworld would have made a more interesting place to blockade. Of course Padme would have been replaced by a Mon Calamari female but Jar Jar would be a quarren.

[turkishproverb]

Heh. And that's why the Jedi council is supposed to appoint masters...as a screening process for lunatics.

He really explains why they wouldn't give the position to Any, doesn't he?


Ah, well okay then.

glad we're understanding eachother


Maybe what it means is that with an organised Sith order lurking behind the scenes there could never be a real balance in the Force since the Jedi wanted to let it guide them in its actions while the Sith intended to control it to their own purposes. If that's the case Anakin did end up being the one who brought balance to the Force by eventually destroying the organised Sith (himself and Palpatine) but Luke also did it by redeeming his father?

Head hurts. Maybe I should jsut post my own thread with me theory at this point. I See where your coming from but I still think that A: Darths and droids got it half Right (even if years after me), and B: Aniken's betrayal ultimatelly led to the removal of the corrupted version of the jedi code (granted in favor of something totally different, that is only if you go that far into the EU, which just gets worse and worse the longer you go on until legacy of the force...)


It could be worse. The EU could be made entirely of fanfiction instead of recognised authors.

You know, all of Peter Davids star trek work was because he did so much Star Trek Fan fiction


On a side note, speaking of Ackbar I think that the Mon Cal homeworld would have made a more interesting place to blockade. Of course Padme would have been replaced by a Mon Calamari female but Jar Jar would be a quarren.

It's a TRAP!

Somehow, I don't think george would be worried about contradicting where each species come from. Although I agree it would have been a better setting. It's not like you couldn't wedge a human female in there somewhere.

[MammonAzrael]

1st, thanks for the thread, it's been quite the entertaining read thus far.

Disclaimer: I've have read almost nothing of the EU, though now I really want to.

My personal opinion on the prophecy and re-balancing the Force: Anakin did bring balance to the Force. And part of that was his fall to the Dark side and annihilation of the Jedi order. As stated, the Rebublic had known of 1000 years of peace, with no none Sith acting up, so the Jedi could continue to grow and prosper (and their moral code bloat and corrupt into something else). Balance this is not. For true balance to be restored, the Jedi had to go. They were no longer a middle of the road, balanced order, but guided by strict rules that eschewed balance quite harshly. But the Sith were the opposite extreme, and had to be dealt with as well. By eliminating both major factions/religions based on the force (both of which were very extreme, and not balanced in the slightest), Anakin returned the Force to balance, a middle ground.

(Of course, the Jedi would never have imagined they were part of the problem, and thus misinterpreted the prophecy...though Yoda may have had an inkling of it

OBI-WAN: With all due respect, Master, is he not the Chosen One? Is he not to destroy the Sith and bring balance to the Force?

MACE: So the prophecy says.

YODA: A prophecy . . . that misread could have been.

Seen in another way, it could be a metaphor saying that all organized religion had to go, and bring it back to a more decentralized, personal belief system.

Apologies if it's not clear or you've questions, I'm not a world class master wordsmith. :smallsmile:

Oh, and on topic I agree with improving the love story, Obi-wan forgetting about Luke having a sister, and Jar-Jar. Also, i remember reading that R2-D2 conspiracy theory (http://www.morningstar.nildram.co.uk/A_New_Sith.html), and it was great.