OOTS #588 - The Discussion Thread

[The Giant]

New comic is up.

[The Extinguisher]

Oh man, that is good.

Gotta love Shojo.

[Inhuman Bot]

Did *not* see that coming...
And good job, yet again!

[Yendor]

Just brilliant. And I'll bet everyone was thinking of Daigo with that title.

[Lira]

Heh heh. Great one, I love the look on Argent's face in the dentist chair, and how Hinjo looks so akward sitting on Durkon's head.

[Laurentio II]

Nice and funny but... what's the matter with aiming for ankles? Most of us killed at least a Storm Giant by chopping the feet's nails.

[kpenguin]

Just brilliant. And I'll bet everyone was thinking of Daigo with that title.

I know I did.

It probably refers to how "argent" is another word for "silver".

BTW, I think this might help explain why Hinjo's katana is lighter than the one he used against Miko and during the Battle for Azure City

[TheCountAlucard]

Did *not* see that coming...
And good job, yet again!

(sobs) I hate my PSP. I just noticed, "new comic is up." I click, and, "There is not enough memory."

[An Enemy Spy]

I want to eat at Shojo's tables!

[Inhuman Bot]

@alucard: whaaat?

[Sedgewood]

So Thor's Might can't be used to increase run speed, but can be used as a makeshift catapult. I'll have to keep that in mind for future reference.

[brilliantlight]

Six months sounds about right for being annoyed with :vaarsuvius:. He needs to med BAD!!!

[Kaytara]

A new strip, YES! ^^

The first few panels really made me go WHOA. So Vaarsuvius has Empower Spell and Quicken Spell now?

V's really acting crazy now. I have a feeling he just needs to defeat this devil by himself to prove it to himself that he's still the all-powerful wizard he believes himself to be... Interesting.

[Jade Falcon]

Hinyo is right, V changes from a likeable jerk to an annoying jerk

[Nevitan]

AHH! yes, coolest battle tactics in a long while, and a scene involving Shojo, Thank you so much Giant made my day!

[Edea]

This have anything to do with Belkar's death timer? "Six months," huh?

[memnarch]

Love Argent in the dentist chair. :smallbiggrin:

[drengnikrafe]

I find the second to last line funnier then the last, but I love the whole thing. Yay for Vaarsuvius!

[Zeebiedeebie]

:vaarsuvius: is my favorite. V's prophecy seems like it is going to come true at the end of this story arc. "By saying the four right words to the right being for all the wrong reasons."

[zadcap]

Why does everyone carry Silverd and Cold Iron weapons around? Anyone else remember Halley pulling out Cold Iron and Silver arrows to shoot the flying skank?

[Squirrel_Token]

I forsee V getting some very painful/embarrassing comeuppance in the next five comics. She's really asking for it.

[Narses]

I love how Thor's might is used as a launching pad :smallsmile:
Vaarsivius seems to be running low on diplomacy...

[NotNale]

I'm loving the return to action in this one.

Beginning to think that this is all coming to a head -- or at least this arc. I suspect, given the giant's past, that it's all going to intersect, and I'm fascinated to see how.

[DBear]

V is going to have the Heroic BSOD (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HeroicBSOD)soon, I think.

[snoopy13a]

Why does everyone carry Silverd and Cold Iron weapons around? Anyone else remember Halley pulling out Cold Iron and Silver arrows to shoot the flying skank?

Hinjo and Haley are just more prepared then some of the other characters. It is easier for Haley as she can carry a mess of arrows in her quiver and I suppose that Hinjo must be the Boy Scout type. However, note that Lien isn't carrying a silver weapon.

[Ramien]

Why does everyone carry Silverd and Cold Iron weapons around? Anyone else remember Halley pulling out Cold Iron and Silver arrows to shoot the flying skank?

They're adventurers who believe in being prepared. And so far, Haley and Hinjo have been the only ones who've had both weapon types - Lien doesn't have changeable spear heads, and Roy's only ever used his sword or a club.

[dogmac]

Sit on me head!

Got to love it!!!

And, V, you are my favourite character. STOP BEING SUCH A TWIT!!!!

[Kyeudo]

Why does everyone carry Silverd and Cold Iron weapons around? Anyone else remember Halley pulling out Cold Iron and Silver arrows to shoot the flying skank?

Bypassing damage reduction is a big deal for non casters.

[Kaytara]

Indeed, one of the whole points of this story arc seems to be teaching V some humility. Probably by literally beating some sense into him.
On the plus side, things have pretty much hit rock bottom now. V is objectively obsessed in such a way that is obviously detrimental to others and even his own teammate finally admitted as much. If only because this isn't the kind of condition a story usually drags out, we should be seeing some kind of come-around in the near future.

[Superglucose]

Why does everyone carry Silverd and Cold Iron weapons around? Anyone else remember Halley pulling out Cold Iron and Silver arrows to shoot the flying skank?

So far that's two people, Shinjo has a silver and cold-iron katana each, as well as a steel one (and considering Katanas are pretty much Masterwork bastard swords, that's... not unsurprising for a noble of his stature) and Haley... and what rogue doesn't carry some cold iron or silvered arrows in the mid-high levels?

Unsuccesfull rogues.

[KingMerv00]

Why does everyone carry Silverd and Cold Iron weapons around? Anyone else remember Halley pulling out Cold Iron and Silver arrows to shoot the flying skank?

It is pretty common practice in DnD 3.5. Gotta kill demons, devils, and lycanthropes after all.

Edit: Ninja'd repeatedly.

[dish]

Interesting tactics. It's nice to see Durkon still has his head screwed on. Also, I adore Argent. (Yes, his name does probably help.)

[Enlong]

V is going to have the Heroic BSOD (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HeroicBSOD)soon, I think.

I think V already did (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0504.html) (and no, I don't mean his Scryer error message, I mean his self-bashing rant about playing games with a stupid halfilng.)

[Shadic]

Oh man, I love Hinjo. Every time that he gets some spotlight, he reminds me why he's one of my favorite characters.

Also, Durkon was great in this as well.

And finally, the Katana mystery is explained!

[Blanth]

Zeebiedeebie
Re: OOTS #588 - The Discussion Thread
is my favorite. V's prophecy seems like it is going to come true at the end of this story arc. "By saying the four right words to the right being for all the wrong reasons."

Probably going to be something like "I need to rest." At this rate.


zadcap
Re: OOTS #588 - The Discussion Thread
Why does everyone carry Silverd and Cold Iron weapons around? Anyone else remember Halley pulling out Cold Iron and Silver arrows to shoot the flying skank?

Yes. But she had it coming. Skank. :-)

Also I was thinking of Miko and her pokéball the other day too. So, looks like most of the Azurites have them I guess?

[Wikkin]

A guest appearance by Shojo is always appreciated :)

[chiasaur11]

Ah, Shojo.
He wasn't as crazy as people thought, but the dude still knew how to have a good time.

Also, unlike many guessed, it looks like the big demon's going down to good, old fashioned, all-Azurian violence.

Yay for violence!

[Bitzeralisis]

Heh. Argent has silver fillings...

[dish]

Also I was thinking of Miko and her pokéball the other day too. So, looks like most of the Azurites have them I guess?

Thus far, every paladin we've seen summoning their animal has used one.

[WarriorTribble]

Wait, aren't there more efficient ways of dealing with tooth decay instead of fillings? I swear that old "coot" deliberately decayed Argents teeth and "forgot" to mention he could say... heal in his normal plane, or heal via any number of spells. Just to enhance his abilities with a way too complicated plan. Just cause he can, and as a mid level aristocrat it was probably child play anyways.

Incidentally, Argent in pain is very cute.

[krossbow]

gotta wonder how the demon's fairing at this point. Granted, i doubt a few paladin attacks and some empowered magic blasts (When we v learn that blaster mage tactics are generally inferior?) would daze something of that magnitude.

[Renegade Paladin]

Why does everyone carry Silverd and Cold Iron weapons around? Anyone else remember Halley pulling out Cold Iron and Silver arrows to shoot the flying skank?
Uh... Because monsters like this show up? :smallconfused:

[Jade_Tarem]

Honestly, when I read the title I was thinking that V was going to try to Truename the devil away.

[Winged One]

So far that's two people, Shinjo has a silver and cold-iron katana each, as well as a steel one (and considering Katanas are pretty much Masterwork bastard swords, that's... not unsurprising for a noble of his stature) and Haley... and what rogue doesn't carry some cold iron or silvered arrows in the mid-high levels?

Unsuccesfull rogues.

Actually, that would be dead rogues, if I remember right and they don't get Sneak Attack if they don't manage to deal at least one point of damage with their non-SA damage. And it seems pretty unsurprising to me that Hinjo has a whole golf bag of katanas.

[Lumenadducere]

Heh, always good to see Hinjo interacting with Shojo. Wonder how many other times the poor guy had to deal with things like this from his uncle.

[Owl]

The quickened magic missiles look like V is playing with one of those goofy paddle-ball toys.

I like it.

[TheCountAlucard]

A friend just allowed me to view the comic on his computer.

...Friggin' EPIC.

[Paragon Badger]

I was wondering about Hinjo's color-changing katana.... :smallbiggrin:

[Sampi]

That is one brave dentist/veterinarian. I hope he's got the anaesthetic down good.

[factotum]

Just loved the idea that silver-based fillings could be as harmful to devils as any normal silver weapon would be...wonder if he had a few cold iron fillings put in there as well, just in case? :smallsmile:

[xelliea]

so V is stupid sometimes i would be after having no sleep for that long
s/he still rules

[Mercenary Pen]

That is one brave dentist/veterinarian. I hope he's got the anaesthetic down good.

Nope, better than that... The dentist was already being sentenced to death. :smallwink: and more to the point, being sentenced to a death horrific enough that being mauled to death by Argent seemed fairly mild by comparison...


On a more serious note, I bet Durkon's got some buff for his warhammer that'll allow him to do damage to the big devil here, though I'll leave working out exactly what to the giant and/or the level geekery people... but now that Durkon's that size, a warhammer to the- um- pelvis, is too hard to resist...

[David Argall]

Tactically V is quite correct. She is hitting the fiend for much more damage than he and Hinjo could if she tried to carry Hinjo around [not to mention that the two of them together is a double target for the fiend, making it easier to hurt the party.

Those seeing some evidence of some sort of V breakdown are advised he was behaving virtually identically back in comic 10.

By game rules, Hinjo is incorrect. He can do just as much damage hitting the toes as the head.

Another game rule point would be that doggie automatically heals upon returning to the upper planes and so does not need to see the dentist.

Of course, in both cases, the rule of plot/funny trumps mere facts.

[Laurentio II]

Analysis on sleep deprivation on humans and elves.

Case 1:

:smallmad: I need you to fly me up to...

:smallsigh: Eh... ah... me... what?

Case 2:

:smallmad: I need you to fly me up to...

:vaarsuvius: I’m sorry, you seem to have mistaken me for some sort of aerial livery service.
It’s for the protection of your people that I’m engaging this titanic fiend, so it would behove you to stop attempting to direct my efforts elsewhere. (Empowered Lighting Bolt)
Since it is clear that only my arcane arts have any hope of thwarting this opponent, I’m the lone individual qualified to judge what is the most effective disposition of my ample magical talents. (Quickened Magic Missile)

And now, you know: for an elf, speaking is not a rational act. So, it's not dampened by sleep deprivation.

[Halvormerlinaky]

Did *not* see that coming...
And good job, yet again!

Oh, gods, the laughter, please make it stop. And the orthodontics memories! PLEASE! For the love of Zeus!

[warmachine]

My D&D warrior characters always have a alchemical silver sword, an cold iron sword, an adamantine and a main magical sword, usually flaming. Having every obscure alchemical metal is just sensible.

[Rad]

Great! I't always good to see Hinjo in action :smallbiggrin:

[Moonshadow]

Wow, V is really turning into a female hound.

Love the new use for Thor's Might though :smallbiggrin:

[Trixie]

Quickened MM? A waste of spell slot!

Ps. Where Hinjo carried a steel katana? So far, he only fought with CS and a silver one? :smallconfused:

[SoD]

Oh, that is brilliant. Took me ages to get it though...and how long has Rich had the new avatar for?

[Yerocha]

As someone who only started reading in the last year, let me just say this:

HOORAY FOR SHOJO!

[Tundar]

Sit on me head... (and tell me that you love me). Hahahaha great strip!!

[Neopolis]

Wooh Shojo cameo~

[bigbaddragon]

Honestly, when I read the title I was thinking that V was going to try to Truename the devil away.

Heh, me too. Anyway, I can't remember if there was any mention/picture of o'Chull having a pokeball which brings me to my next question: have we seen his special mount already (assuming he has one)?

[Laurentio II]

Heh, me too. Anyway, I can't remember if there was any mention/picture of o'Chull having a pokeball which brings me to my next question: have we seen his special mount already (assuming he has one)?
No. There is a thread where it's discussed the possible special mount of O-Chul. Almost everything, from worms to Terrasque. I personally put my money on Giant Hedgehog.

[SteveMB]

Oh, dear, V is certainly getting (more) arrogant and irrational....

[pendell]

Possible typo check: What is a 'livery service'? Does the Giant mean 'delivery service'?

Aside from that, loving the action. MUST HAVE MORE!

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Edhelras]

OMG I just LOVE that V is firing quickened magic missiles FROM HIS HIP!

[Holammer]

Well, that explained the colour of Hinjo's sword a few strips back. Just when you think Rich made some sorta mistake with the art :smallwink:

[hajo]

I'm eating at the wrong tables too, obviously :smallamused:

[Blaznak]

And that, boys and girls, is the story of how the Dwarf-a-pult was created...

[HOLEkevin]

Annoying and overpowered elven wizard: 250 gold

Short stack dwarf who has the right spell at the right time: 1500 gold

Giant wolf in a dentist's chair: priceless

[RebelRogue]

Actually, that would be dead rogues, if I remember right and they don't get Sneak Attack if they don't manage to deal at least one point of damage with their non-SA damage.
You remember wrong: there's no specification of such criteria in the Sneak Attack rules! Also for this reason, I don't consider it that critically important for at rogue to carry seventy+ types of special material weapons to get by. Nice, sure, but not make-or-break!

[Kesnit]

I love the look on Hinjo's face while he is sitting on Durkon's head. I kept going back and laughing.

Argent in the dentist chair is priceless, too. Poor puppy... :smalleek: :smallfrown:

[eggamagga]

I am so doing that to my animal companion! Give him teeth of silver, claws of cold iron! Nice!

You know, this whole time I thought the color changing sword was odd too, but I guess we just never think of not only the order of the stick people having a backup weapon (Haley had to borrow Elans rapier) but also, I've never heard of an NPC carrying a second weapon for this type of occation.

As for O'chuls mount, it's obvious. O'chul rides around on Chuck Norris's shoulders.

[Lissou]

Oh, that is brilliant. Took me ages to get it though...and how long has Rich had the new avatar for?

Since the server switch.

[Gamerlord]

That elf is starting to get on MY nerves to, i hope he is disabled for this battle at least!

[horngeek]

Just saw the strip, and I have to say-
THAT. WAS. AWESOME.

[SPoD]

Possible typo check: What is a 'livery service'? Does the Giant mean 'delivery service'?

Not a typo. A livery service is essentially a car-for-hire, such as a limousine.

Try Googling it to see what I mean, you'll get a few dozen adds for limo services.

[Valley]

Now we have a giant dwarf fighting a giant demon.

:durkon: ROOOARRR!

:roach: Run! Run!

Mmm...Japanese Monster Movies anyone?

[foxlegend]

Nice and funny but... what's the matter with aiming for ankles? Most of us killed at least a Storm Giant by chopping the feet's nails.

As a matter of fact, D&D combats can be described as a couple of dices knocking each oder. So the basic strategy to take out any giant creature is to have his toe stuck on a hole (maybe by making him kick a castle wall or something) and stab it till you deal enough damage. So it could have been used on the comic as a joke, but nevermind...
I just don´t understand why :durkon: didn´t fight (besides helping hijo make one complete attack).

[Zolem]

Just loved the idea that silver-based fillings could be as harmful to devils as any normal silver weapon would be...wonder if he had a few cold iron fillings put in there as well, just in case? :smallsmile:

N, silver and gold are used as fillings due to he fact that they do not tarnish or rust. Iron rusts which would lead to (fatal) lock jaw, so no dentist in America would ever use iron. Also, for those of you saying that a magic solution was probably better, you're right. But have you seen any dentestry spells? I thought not. They have too good a union. (No, seriously, dentists do have a great union that wields a lot of clout in the House.)

[M84]

Giant Dwarf acting as a springboard + Paladin King wielding a silver katana + Celestial Wolf mount with silver fangs + gigantic devil actually roaring in pain = WIN

The icing on the cake (so to speak) is that they probably did more damage to the beast than V has so far. If this arc isn't V's SoD, it is at least making him a Jerkass of Epic level (as opposed to his level of magic ability).

Yeah, while I'm enjoying this arc, I'm not inclined to take V's side on matters right now, and I doubt we are supposed to either.

Apropos of nothing, Argent is just lucky that Shojo wasn't having chocolate cake instead.

Great comic again!

[T-O-E]

Great comic, as always. The giant Durkon-apult was gold.


Oh, that is brilliant. Took me ages to get it though...and how long has Rich had the new avatar for?

A few weeks?

[Warren Dew]

Oh, dear, V is certainly getting (more) arrogant and irrational....

Seems to me it's Hinjo who is being obnoxious and arrogant. Vaarsuvius isn't his servant, after all.

[Laurentio II]

The icing on the cake (so to speak) is that they probably did more damage to the beast than V has so far.
I doubt. Empowered Lighting Bolt? Should be 18d6 (let's say 63 damage, 30 if saved). Five Magic Missiles are around 17 damages, so we are speaking of 50/80 damage points.

Shojo used a Charged, Full Attack with Smite Evil, paired with a large wolf bite. It's leagues away.

[Kaytara]

Tactically V is quite correct. She is hitting the fiend for much more damage than he and Hinjo could if she tried to carry Hinjo around [not to mention that the two of them together is a double target for the fiend, making it easier to hurt the party.


Seconded. I think V needing to defeat the devil by himself still plays a large role in his motivations, but yes.

Besides, what now? The Thor!Catapult is one-shot only.
Unless Hinjo is going to spend precious time climbing Durkon and jumping off of him to land more blows, V's spells are still a far better source of steady damage than a non-flying medium-sized paladin is.

Granted, Durkon is now buffed up... How long does the Thor's Might spell last? I'm assuming it's based of Lesser Visage of the Deity, but on all three occasions when the spell was previously used, it seemed to last a couple of rounds, just enough to land a few hits.

Maybe Durkon will distract the devil while V carries Hinjo up to its head to land a critical or something... Here's hoping V goes along with that. T_T

[Kilarny]

Crazy old man with the cat, yay! He is always welcome in a flashback.

[sohvan]

Sit on me head... (and tell me that you love me). Hahahaha great strip!!

I'm glad I'm not the only one who thought of this song (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FKeQpeDkoGc&feature=related) :smallsmile:

[DigoDragon]

That elf is starting to get on MY nerves to, i hope he is disabled for this battle at least!

Elan was sorta hoping for that earlier (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0585.html) as well. :smallsmile:

[Kilbia]

and Haley... and what rogue doesn't carry some cold iron or silvered arrows in the mid-high levels?

Unsuccesfull rogues.

Heck, during my RPGA days, I think I was level ONE still when I had a judge tell me "listen up, guys, buy at least a silver dagger and a cold iron dagger. They're cheap, which means the folks who write these mods will occasionally feel no remorse about dropping minor devils and demons into low-level mods". (I played in the Bandit Kingdoms, where demons really were part of local flavor - it wasn't like the mod writers were trying to be jerks.)

After that, I became an obsessive collector of arrows. Any time I found a way to get a new type of arrow, I did. Cybele was level 5 when she died, but in that time I'd already amassed silver, cold iron, blunt, serpentstongue and adamantine arrows.

[deworde]

Ladies and Gentlemen, in this time of trouble, with pregnant women forced into taking drugs to defeat Ninjas, and Demonic Entities and Half-Orcs in the Corridors of Power (admittedly in the shadows), let us all remember just how awesome Shojo was.
"Clearly you haven't been eating at the right tables." Heh.

[DeadmanXI]

I doubt. Empowered Lighting Bolt? Should be 18d6 (let's say 63 damage, 30 if saved). Five Magic Missiles are around 17 damages, so we are speaking of 50/80 damage points.

Shojo used a Charged, Full Attack with Smite Evil, paired with a large wolf bite. It's leagues away.

Well, Hinjo's attacking with, say, Str 14, at 11th level could easily equal out to 52 or so assuming his entire array of attacks all hit (1d10+3 three times averages about 26+11 from Smite Evil, +15 or so from Argent's bite assuming Argent uses Dire Wolf stats).

There's also the very real possibility of Spell Resistance, which might easily have completely negated V's attacks thus far, Pit Fiends, for example, have SR 32. If this thing's equivalently defended (and we've seen no evidence of V's attacks effecting it), V's attacks may well not have worked at all. It certainly hasn't screamed in pain at any of them.

So, Hinjo probably has dealt quite a bit more damage than V, but even if you give V the benefit of the doubt, he's not "leagues away" in the other direction.

[MReav]

The Bonus from Smite Evil should at least bypass the damage reduction (it's supernatural damage which overcomes DR)

[(name here)]

To everyone who says :vaarsuvius: did more damage by casting spells

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm

look at the fourth S.

[Selene]

Yay! Shojo! :smallbiggrin:

[docstrange]

When I read the title and saw that the battle against the devil was going on, I said, "OK- the title means, they would do even MORE damage if they knew its True Name!"

Then I read the punchline with the silver fillings, etc, and said to myself, "Duh, the friggin' wolf's name means Silver. How could Rich not have pointed THAT out?"

Hours later, I realized, he DID... and that once again I had outsmarted myself.

Oh, and, great comic.

[Bill]

To everyone who says :vaarsuvius: did more damage by casting spells

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm

look at the fourth S.

Yeah. If it's just a run-of-the-mill pit fiend it would have SR in the low thirties. You overcome SR by making a caster level check of d20 + caster level that exceeds the SR. It's SR could be a lot higher, too. Plus its saving rolls bonuses are all around 20 which means it will save on almost every spell (well, except MM).

Having fought critters like that in actual D&D games the best use of spells BY FAR is to buff up the fighters and let them have at it while trying to strip off the magical defenses of the critter. A buffed up fighter can easily dish out several hundred damage a round, even against something like that.

[Ramien]

Tactically V is quite correct. She is hitting the fiend for much more damage than he and Hinjo could if she tried to carry Hinjo around [not to mention that the two of them together is a double target for the fiend, making it easier to hurt the party.


I disagree. So far, all of V's attacks have elicited no response from the giant devil. Hinjo and Argent's attacks, on the other hand, got a very large pain response from Big Red. It's possible that it's spell resistance is higher than normal, and that, in fact, V's spells are some of the least damaging things that could be thrown at it.

On a side note, Is it just me, or did V's second speech bubble sound a lot like something Eugene would have said, if a bit more verbose?

[Solara]

I think I've about had it with V too, he has officially crossed the fine line between being an amusing jerk and an infuriating one...great for the story and I can't wait to see where this is leading, but it's actually a little sad going through the archives and seeing him back when he was still cool. :smallfrown:

Loved the whole comic and the last panel in particular though, Shojo still remains my favorite NPC of all time and I'm happy for any chance to see him again. :smallsmile:

[fractal]

Poor Hinjo. Referred to by such diverse names as Hinyo, Shinjo, and even Shojo in just 3 pages of comments.

Hinjo himself, on the other hand, seems conscientious about names - unlike Miko, he successfully addresses Vaarsuvius by name. The result isn't much better, though.

[Just Joseph]

Seems to me it's Hinjo who is being obnoxious and arrogant. Vaarsuvius isn't his servant, after all.

Um, teamwork? Cooperation? Despite talking being a free action in D&D terms, it's reasonable for talk between members of the same side in a battle to be terse and to the point. And heck, Hinjo didn't even phrase it as an order, but as a statement of need: "I need you to..." For his part, V didn't even let him finish the statement, which I would expect to continue "... so I can make effective use of my silvered weapon and smite evil". No, V just assumes he knows it all and is the only effective member of the party, despite the 6-month ongoing failure of his own efforts. He's not only arrogant and obnoxious, he's WRONG on a monumental scale.

It's neither obnoxious nor arrogant to assume your teammates will adjust their actions to better leverage the overall assets of your party. Hinjo's request was only a trifle more burdensome to V than "move over there so I can get a flank," and if V used a little imagination I bet he could figure out a way to accomplish some of his own goals while helping Hinjo at the same time.

Note Durkon's response in contrast to Vaarsuvius': Durkon didn't even ask for more explanation, he just assumed Hinjo's request was reasonable even if he didn't know what Hinjo had in mind. After a few sharp words from Durkon, Hinjo went along with Durkon's unusual command even though he didn't know where it was going, and *bam*, Hinjo was where he wanted to be, while Durkon was at the same time in a better position to deal out damage himself. Meanwhile V continues to go it alone, neither giving nor receiving any leverage from his nominal teammates.

Score:
Vaarsuvius: arrogant and obnoxious
Durkon: humble, cooperative and thereby more effectual
Hinjo: just trying to do his job.

[docstrange]

Can't help but contrast V's refusal to help Hinjo here with his prior excellent teamwork with Elan: giving him advice on how to make his illusions more effective.

[Belkar Rocks]

Awww, poor Argent. :smallfrown:

But otherwise: Bwa ha ha!

♫ Sit on my head, and tell me that you love me ...

Yes, I know it's not an exact quote, but I have to work with what I get!

[Marduk Prophet]

@Docstrange - I would think it only natural for Vaarsuvius to respond in such a way. Illusions are far nearer to his/her expertise than say, carrying some paladin to an unnecessary striking location with what he/she can only assume is a ineffectual weapon.

I'm personally on V's side with this one. Despite Hinjo pulling a rabbit out of his hat, V has the more reasonable mind (as strange as that may sound).

[dragonseth]

Poor Hinjo. Referred to by such diverse names as Hinyo, Shinjo, and even Shojo in just 3 pages of comments.

Hinjo himself, on the other hand, seems conscientious about names - unlike Miko, he successfully addresses Vaarsuvius by name. The result isn't much better, though.

The problem with your assessment is that Shojo was in this comic. In the last panel.:smallbiggrin:

[Eran of Arcadia]

Illusions are far nearer to his/her expertise than say, carrying some paladin to an unnecessary striking location with what he/she can only assume is a ineffectual weapon.

Why should ve* assume that? Ve must realize that ver companions aren't idiots, and that Hinjo is smart enough to know whether a weapon is effective or not. Unless it is ver policy to always assume people don't know what they are doing unless they can prove otherwise.

*Yes, I have been waiting months to use that, thanks for asking!

[fractal]

The problem with your assessment is that Shojo was in this comic. In the last panel.:smallbiggrin:
I am aware, but: "Shojo used a Charged, Full Attack with Smite Evil, paired with a large wolf bite. It's leagues away." doesn't seem like something that I would have expected from the mock-senile former ruler of Azure City.

[Querzis]

I doubt. Empowered Lighting Bolt? Should be 18d6 (let's say 63 damage, 30 if saved). Five Magic Missiles are around 17 damages, so we are speaking of 50/80 damage points.

Shojo used a Charged, Full Attack with Smite Evil, paired with a large wolf bite. It's leagues away.

Firstly, the paladin is Hinjo. Shojo is the wacky old dude with the cat. Secondly, spell resistance. Since Hinjo and his dog used Silver, he got past any damage reduction that thing might have but if you seriously think a devil that strong and big doesnt have a spell resistance we probably arent playing the same game. The devil screamed when Hinjo hit him but not when V used his spells so I really dont think V spell affected him at all in the first place!

A pit Fiend got 32 spell resistance. To damage something with a spell resistance of 32, V would need 19 or 20. That thing is bigger then a pit fiend. Do the maths.

[chibibar]

I read the first page but not the next three :)

Many players/adventurers like to be prepare. If you are of certain class, you always want to ensure you will maximize damage to most creature you are good at.

Cold Iron and silver weapon can be use as normal weapon, sure it cost a lot more and to have them enchanted but sometimes it is worth it.

When I play a character, I always make sure I have a sack of flour handy (usually 2 bags of 1 lb flour) you never know when you might need to find invisible person when you are not a caster.

[Marduk Prophet]

Why should ve* assume that? Ve must realize that ver companions aren't idiots, and that Hinjo is smart enough to know whether a weapon is effective or not. Unless it is ver policy to always assume people don't know what they are doing unless they can prove otherwise.

*Yes, I have been waiting months to use that, thanks for asking!

Are we talking about the same V, who can rant about "its" own arcane superiority until the end of days? Its not about judging whether V's comrades are reliable or not. Vaarsuvius is taking it upon his/herself to prove what s/he is always boasting about. Given the fact that previous attempts to locate lost friends have failed miserably, as well as the constant stress of sleep deprivation is taking its toll, I think its only logical to assume that V is feeling pretty inadequate right now and is trying to find a way of proving otherwise. We can all read the comic and analyze how one SHOULD act in the given situation, but with all that's happened, I think V is only doing what comes naturally.

[dragongirl13]

Ha ha, silver fillings! That's brilliant. Absolutely brilliant.

Strangely enough, I don't think a 20-lb tub of strawberry cake frosting counts as table scraps either... but giving Argent cavities paid off in the end, LOL.

[Dohmaker]

the whole point of V being a Jerk is to show that Roy is needed to get V to perform in teamwork with the others. Roy will make everything better. Just like the frog king!

[Lamech]

If that thing is as powerful as a pit fiend or more so, they should be running not staying around to fight. A pit fiend would be pretty smart as far as they know; 19+ in all mental stats, and a pit fiend can cast blasphemy at will. A normal pit fiend would have shot off a blasphemy as soon as it saw how weak the good guys were, and then slaughtered them. V is obviously assuming that the creature is not a pit fiend.

[katkin]

Seems to me it's Hinjo who is being obnoxious and arrogant. Vaarsuvius isn't his servant, after all.

I think Hinjo was just asking for help and V shot him down even before (s)he heard his request. That is just plain rude... c'mon V, you're better than that! Look at yourself girl (man?). Get some sleep... or some trancing. Also Shojo- YAY! I miss him.

[SAMAS]

Ha ha, silver fillings! That's brilliant. Absolutely brilliant.

Strangely enough, I don't think a 20-lb tub of strawberry cake frosting counts as table scraps either... but giving Argent cavities paid off in the end, LOL.

30 c.p. says he did it on purpose for just that reason.

[SteveMB]

I love how Mr. Scruffy is there just watching. My cats would freak at the sight of a big dog like that.

[Kaytara]

Grr, Marduk Prophet said it best. XD


the whole point of V being a Jerk is to show that Roy is needed to get V to perform in teamwork with the others. Roy will make everything better. Just like the frog king!

I dunno, I like to think that the point of this story arc is to make the flawed characters grow and get over themselves, so that they can stand on their feet without Roy. As someone pointed out, Haley has already learned to be a capable leader, making firm decisions on the run instead of wasting time angsting about them. Roy has gotten over his rather immature grudge with his dad. Elan has learned to take responsibility... sort of... and be half-way competent... on a good day.
Obviously, Belkar, Durkon and V remain. If Belkar survives the Mark, then I see him possibly learning to be more cunning, in the long-term interest sense, and control his impulses. Vaarsuvius, with some luck, will emerge from this storm somewhat humbler, having learned to trust his teammates' abilities and accepted that he has limitations. As for Durkon, I'm not really sure... He's probably the most normal of all of them, phobia of trees notwithstanding. Besides, he kind of got over his issues when he met Roy in Origins.

The conflicts will eventually resolve themselves, and the Order will be stronger for it. That way, when Roy is finally returned to them, they'll be far more competent than they were before.

[PhallicWarrior]

Dwarven Catapults!

Silver Dog Fillings!

Arrogant Elves!

Shojo!

Awesome!

[Trixie]

Um, as for the damage: Pit Fiends have DR 15 silver and good. As far as I know, neither bite nor katana strike have that as their damage type, so it is equally possible that Hinjo & his wolf did no damage, save for that of a smite.

I fail to see what more effective tactic V could have adopted other than blasting. She, unlike the so-called Batman-wizard had no time to prepare, she doesn't know all spells, and I'm quite convinced that Pit Fiends can easily save all hare-brained combos like "I cast sleep on him, then I coup de grace him", not that any are avaible on V's level, opponents of his CR are far too strong to fall to the "Batman" tactics anyway.

Having said that, quickened MM was idiotic waste of spell, really. Orb of Force is much better choice on this level, and it ignores SR.

[chiasaur11]

Um, as for the damage: Pit Fiends have DR 15 silver and good. As far as I know, neither bite nor katana strike have that as their damage type, so it is equally possible that Hinjo & his wolf did no damage, save for that of a smite.

I fail to see what more effective tactic V could have adopted other than blasting. She, unlike the so-called Batman-wizard had no time to prepare, she doesn't know all spells, and I'm quite convinced that Pit Fiends can easily save all hare-brained combos like "I cast sleep on him, then I coup de grace him", not that any are avaible on V's level, opponents of his CR are far too strong to fall to the "Batman" tactics anyway.

Having said that, quickened MM was idiotic waste of spell, really. Orb of Force is much better choice on this level, and it ignores SR.

The Katana and bite were both silver. That was a big part of the conclusion of the comic.

Were you paying attention?

[hamishspence]

Celestial creatures have Good subtype (with silver fillings, that's Argent sorted) Paladins have access to the Bless Weapon spell, giving damage Good subtype, that's Hinjo sorted.

[Ramien]

That and bless weapon is available to paladins somewhere between 4th and 6th level, depending on wisdom.

Add that to the fact that Hinjo's sword and Argent's bite are both seen leaving wound marks on the devil - assuming it's a pit fiend does not seem like a safe idea to me - and we must conclude that yes, Hinjo and his mount have both done some significant damage to the beast - Lien says as much in the second to last panel.

Drat- ninja'd on bless weapon.

[Texas Jedi]

Um, as for the damage: Pit Fiends have DR 15 silver and good. As far as I know, neither bite nor katana strike have that as their damage type, so it is equally possible that Hinjo & his wolf did no damage, save for that of a smite.


The whole point of this comic's punch line was the fact that Argent has silver fillings on his poor cavity stricken teeth. Heck it is even been mentioned in the thread that argent is the Latin word for silver. That is why it has the periodic symbol of Ag.

Hinjo himself mentions that he has a silver katana and a cold iron one just in case they run into anything for the lower planes.

[John Campbell]

And there are several magic weapon properties designed to inconvenience evil beings in various ways that have the side effect of making the weapon permanently good-aligned. And IME, paladins jump right on those effects - particularly holy, which is even core - as soon as they can afford to have their weapons enchanted.

[turkishproverb]

Man, I need to start eating at the right tables

[banjo1985]

Nice strip there, how have I missed the pokeballs up until now?

I'm not blind and I have at least two brain cells to rub together....I should be ashamed of myself :smalleek:

[David Argall]

That and bless weapon is available to paladins somewhere between 4th and 6th level, depending on wisdom.
We are assuming here that V would have seen it cast, a common assumption in game play, but a rather unrealistic one.


assuming it's a pit fiend does not seem like a safe idea to me
In fact we know it is not a book pit fiend. It lacks the intelligence among other things. So assuming it has significant SR is very much taking the wish for the deed here.
On the available evidence, it's SR is insignificent. Note here that V is acting like she thought the spells were working. Contrast with his behavior back in Azure City when she met an undead with strong SR. He did not continuously cast spells at a target she didn't expect to affect. Here he is continuing to cast spells. Conclusion: The spells are doing damage, and the yelp of pain is merely due to the unexpected damage. The absence of yelps does not mean there is no damage. Silence does not give consent. Those wishing to argue otherwise are reminded of many previous absences in this comic, including Roy from a comic, from which it was concluded that he was rushing back to the upper planes to find Miko.



A pit Fiend got 32 spell resistance. To damage something with a spell resistance of 32, V would need 19 or 20. That thing is bigger then a pit fiend. Do the maths.

The thing has also proved inferior to a pit fiend in several respects, so we can see the math is not that easy. Bigger does not necessarily mean better.
Indeed, we can see evidence of the reverse. The Pit Fiend is supposed to be THE big devil, before which all others bow. So this big lug should lose any fight with a real pit fiend. And since it has to be stronger, it would need balancing weaknesses elsewhere, such as in spell resistance.

[Morgan Wick]

Analysis on sleep deprivation on humans and elves.

Case 1:

:smallmad: I need you to fly me up to...

:smallsigh: Eh... ah... me... what?

Case 2:

:smallmad: I need you to fly me up to...

:vaarsuvius: I’m sorry, you seem to have mistaken me for some sort of aerial livery service.
It’s for the protection of your people that I’m engaging this titanic fiend, so it would behove you to stop attempting to direct my efforts elsewhere. (Empowered Lighting Bolt)
Since it is clear that only my arcane arts have any hope of thwarting this opponent, I’m the lone individual qualified to judge what is the most effective disposition of my ample magical talents. (Quickened Magic Missile)

And now, you know: for an elf, speaking is not a rational act. So, it's not dampened by sleep deprivation.

Too bad elves don't sleep. (Sorry if I've been... you know.)

[Finwe]

Too bad elves don't sleep. (Sorry if I've been... you know.)

They still have to do their trance/meditation/whatever they call it in your setting thing for four hours a day to avoid fatigue and to prepare spells.

[snoopy13a]

In fact we know it is not a book pit fiend. It lacks the intelligence among other things. So assuming it has significant SR is very much taking the wish for the deed here.


Just because he is a lousy card player doesn't necessarily mean that he is not intelligent. Perhaps he is just too lazy to develop good card playing skills such as calculating pot odds, probabilities of winning, etc.

[Marduk Prophet]

Just because he is a lousy card player doesn't necessarily mean that he is not intelligent. Perhaps he is just too lazy to develop good card playing skills such as calculating pot odds, probabilities of winning, etc.

"Qarr had 3 kings showing" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0585.html)and the creature still thought it was a bluff. Less about cards, more about intelligence I would say.

[SoC175]

Um, as for the damage: Pit Fiends have DR 15 silver and good. As far as I know, neither bite nor katana strike have that as their damage type, so it is equally possible that Hinjo & his wolf did no damage, save for that of a smite.
The wolf is a celestial creature and thus has the [Good] subtype making all of his natural weapons good for overcomming DR. Well, and the silver is in it's teeth.

And if Hinjo thought about bringing a silvered Katana he surely wouldn't have forgotten to have it's blessed (1st level spell for him) or even enchanted as a holy weapon

[SteveMB]

On the available evidence, it's SR is insignificent. Note here that V is acting like she thought the spells were working. Contrast with his behavior back in Azure City when she met an undead with strong SR. He did not continuously cast spells at a target she didn't expect to affect. Here he is continuing to cast spells.
Yes, but back then Vaarsuvius was not suffering from the effects (including impaired judgment) of months of trance-lack exhaustion.

[maxon]

Yay! The wacky old dude with the cat.

[Salty]

Yay! The wacky old dude with the cat.

Yeah, it's nice to see him again, even if it's only one panel.

[see]

My D&D warrior characters always have a alchemical silver sword, an cold iron sword, an adamantine and a main magical sword, usually flaming. Having every obscure alchemical metal is just sensible.

My favored "good enough array" is a adamantine sword, a cold iron morningstar, a silver sword, and a bottle of silversheen. Level of enchantment highest on the adamantine and second on the morningstar, with the silver weapon only hauled out if I'm facing enough DR/silver opponents the silversheen would run out. Sure, that won't cover a couple corner cases (DR/adamantine and bludgeoning-or-piercing, DR/cold iron and slashing), but the goal here is just "good enough".

[ericgrau]

Sorry, only read 3 of the 5 thread pages. Am I the only one that noticed the comic poking fun at PCs who fight giant creatures by attacking their ankles?

I read another LotR spoof comic where Legolas describes all the cool things he plans to do to take down a mammoth (with movie clips following the thought process) when another PC says, "Haha, that doesn't do any more damage. Let's just keep attacking its ankles."

"You can't be very effective against a big monster's ankles" just got added to my list of house rules. :smallbiggrin:

[Corrupted One]

That poke'ball thing cracks me up every time I see it. And the wacky old dude with a cat is even more funny posthumously.

[(name here)]

I think it's reasonable to assume that the devil at least has spell resistance equal to it's CR + 12 because that seems the rule among SRD devils, so even if it's CR is equal to the party level, V has only a 40% shot at affecting it.

[Doug Lampert]

I disagree. So far, all of V's attacks have elicited no response from the giant devil. Hinjo and Argent's attacks, on the other hand, got a very large pain response from Big Red. It's possible that it's spell resistance is higher than normal, and that, in fact, V's spells are some of the least damaging things that could be thrown at it.

It doesn't have to be higher than average, average SR for a big bad is more than good enough to cripple V.

Let's do the math:

Normal SR is CR+11 or so. V claims the big bad is too much for the rest of them combined to be any help, implying an utterly overwhelming CR, say APL+8 or so, which gives a SR of 33.

Oddly a Pit Fiend (most common suggestion for a foe) has an SR 32. Actually LESS than what V should expect.

V is probably level 13 (14 if hir has leveled off screen). We have no evidence of Spell Penetration or Improved spell penetration, but let's assume both. Let's give V the benefit of the doubt and assume hirs level 14 with both feats, HIR STILL needs to roll a 14+ to penetrate, AKA a 35% chance per spell.

Most spells will fizzle completely.

Let's continue to give V every possible edge, V has an empowered lightning bolt with save DC 13 + Int Mod + any feat bonuses, spell focus and greater spell focus combine for +2, Int Mod is probably about +7 (evidence in the comic is for +4, but we're giving V every possible edge here).

Save DC is 24, a standard Pit Fiend has a reflex bonus of +19, and fails 20% of the time. (If the Pit Fiend is advanced as its size suggests then it only fails on a 1, but we'll assume straight out of the monster manual save value).

Empowered Lightning bolt does 10d6*1.5 (round down), save for half.
Magic Missile does 5d5+5.

V's AVERAGE damage against a bog standard pit fiend giving V 24+ Int and FOUR useful feats that we have no evidence of (+the two more feats shown in this comic) is LESS than 17 damage.

That's right, V spent two level five slots to average substantially less than Hinjo's bonus to damage for smite evil alone on a spirited charge.

Hinjo will average more damage than V if he attacks with a TOOTHPICK, it doesn't matter that his sword is silver, getting him into position to attack is MORE IMPORTANT than getting V to cast those spells.


I'm personally on V's side with this one. Despite Hinjo pulling a rabbit out of his hat, V has the more reasonable mind (as strange as that may sound).

Given Smite Evil Hinjo will do more damage even without a silver weapon.

[Um, as for the damage: Pit Fiends have DR 15 silver and good. As far as I know, neither bite nor katana strike have that as their damage type, so it is equally possible that Hinjo & his wolf did no damage, save for that of a smite.]

The mount is an outsider, it does good damage already. Paladin's of Hinjo's level have bless weapon.

Silver and good isn't a problem for Hinjo. SR is a problem for V.

And on a charge Hinjo can blow past more than 15 DR and STILL do more damage than V. V is being insane here.

People who think V would do more damage than Hinjo are being idiots. V's own assumptions about the nature of the foe tell Hir that the SR is more than hir can deal with.

DougL

[chibibar]

I want to eat at the right table too!!! :)

[disorder]

We are assuming here that V would have seen (Bless Weapon) cast, a common assumption in game play, but a rather unrealistic one.
How are we assuming that?

If you're addressing the "is-V-being-a-twit" argument, then the point isn't whether V knew exactly what Hinjo had in mind, but that she ought to assume that her colleagues have brains, and their requests are not moronic.

Durkon didn't know exactly what Hinjo planned either, but that didn't worry him, as long as Hinjo knew.

[delguidance]

I'm siding with V as well. A solution was found. Hinjo's a big boy and should find ways to get where he needs to go on his own. V's talent is his to use as he best sees fit.

Also, if Hinjo was a better leader he wouldn't have this problem with insubordination. If Hinjo was smarter he'd have a pretty good idea of how V has been approaching things and adjusted accordingly.

Attitude reflects leadership. Yeah I just quoted Remember the Titans. That's how bad at leading Hinjo is.

[NENAD]

Even if Vaarsuvius is up against irrelevantly low Spell Resistance, Hinjo and Argent's attacks exploit the enemy's weaknesses and definitely left a mark. They're definitely doing decent damage. As for V? We can't be sure, but I doubt he's left much a mark. I hope so, though, I want this thing to die.

[Aquillion]

Another thing to remember, though: V is a PC. Hinjo is not. Most PCs are just not going to react very well to being ordered around by lower-level NPCs in the heat of battle, so V's reaction isn't really all that strange in that respect.

[turkishproverb]

Another thing to remember, though: V is a PC. Hinjo is not. Most PCs are just not going to react very well to being ordered around by lower-level NPCs in the heat of battle, so V's reaction isn't really all that strange in that respect.

IT's consistant too. Remember when V refused to do what Miko said until Durkon told her it was a good idea?

[Sonar009]

Thus far, every paladin we've seen summoning their animal has used one.

So, what are the odds that the first blackgaurd we see uses a dusk ball or similar?

(Dusk Balls look like this: http://i.neoseeker.com/ca/pokemon_diamond_conceptart_blOGX_thumb.jpg )

[Linkavitch]

I want to eat at Shojo's tables!

I agree with this guy! 20-lb tubs of strawberry frosting is okay by me, if that's just the scraps! Great comic, Giant!(I knew Thor's Might would appear somewhere!) So, Hinjo had Argent's teeth filled with Silver, then? At first, I thought the dentist was Hinjo's uncle, (as if he was going to help H out be enhancing his teeth.) but then I saw Shojo standing there.

[Linkavitch]

Nice strip there, how have I missed the pokeballs up until now?

I'm not blind and I have at least two brain cells to rub together....I should be ashamed of myself :smalleek:

Yes, you should:smile:

[Xerrik]

This is a good one, in my opinion. I liked the way V refused Hinjo like that, but he does still need to stop being so overwhelmingly pompous. My favorite character, though(besides maybe Elan).

[David Argall]

Let's do the math:
No, there is no need to. We have yet to see evidence that there is SR at all.


Hinjo's bonus to damage for smite evil alone on a spirited charge.
Where are we getting this spirited charge? Or even charge at all?
Hinjo is simply tossed into the air. The fact he summons his mount during his flight does not make him charging. The mount too has no control over his path.
Here again we see that the arguement depends on assuming that V is wrong and Hinjo is right, which is what you are trying to prove.


Given Smite Evil Hinjo will do more damage even without a silver weapon.
Smite Evil gives Hinjo about +12 to damage, and we are looking at a critter with 2-300 hp. We won't throw that away, but if we assume the good guys have a chance at all here, it's not a big factor.


Paladin's of Hinjo's level have bless weapon.
Again, we assume that Hinjo casts this some time when we don't see him, but at the same time, we assume that V is continuing to cast ineffective spells. You are just not arguing on a level playing field.

Silver and good isn't a problem for Hinjo. SR is a problem for V.


And on a charge Hinjo can blow past more than 15 DR and STILL do more damage than V.
So now we are assuming Hinjo is a charge monkey, again without evidence.



Quote:
Originally Posted by David Argall
We are assuming here that V would have seen (Bless Weapon) cast, a common assumption in game play, but a rather unrealistic one.

How are we assuming that?
If we don't assume it, we have a major chance that Hinjo will be useless in combat, and V's listening to him a waste of time.


If you're addressing the "is-V-being-a-twit" argument, then the point isn't whether V knew exactly what Hinjo had in mind, but that she ought to assume that her colleagues have brains, and their requests are not moronic.

That does not mean their requests are sensible. And on the face of it, this request is not. V deems herself the most effective member of the team, and apparently with good reason. To take himself out of action so somebody else can be moved around is not exactly a no-brainer.



"You can't be very effective against a big monster's ankles" just got added to my list of house rules.
Why? It's actually a quite effective method. Elephant hunters used to use it. Cut one Achillies tendon and the elephant can't move. Cut one on this devil and it falls down.

[brilliantlight]

N, silver and gold are used as fillings due to he fact that they do not tarnish or rust. Iron rusts which would lead to (fatal) lock jaw, so no dentist in America would ever use iron.

I never knew before why they did that.

[brilliantlight]

Elan was sorta hoping for that earlier (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0585.html) as well. :smallsmile:


Yeah, for once Elan is right. :smalleek:

[teratorn]

Heck it is even been mentioned in the thread that argent is the Latin word for silver.

No, latin for silver is argentum. Argent is an English word that does indeed come from latin (via French like most of the English words). It means something of silver or silver-coloured.

[Ceric]

Hinjo sitting on Durkon's head made me laugh.
Horray, Lord Shojo returned!
Also, is the dentist standing on Argent? :smallconfused:

[Snipers_Promise]

Good to see Shojo again, even if just for a moment.

[Qrod]

I like V's whole "mad-scientist" attitude when it began, but I do agree that by this comic it's feeling somewhat worn.


I'm confident that everything will pay off in due time. This isn't a sitcom, after all.

But still, what if things never returned to normal? That scares me.

[Occasional Sage]

Um, as for the damage: Pit Fiends have DR 15 silver and good. As far as I know, neither bite nor katana strike have that as their damage type, so it is equally possible that Hinjo & his wolf did no damage, save for that of a smite.


I haven't seen it pointed out yet, so: did you notice the chunk Argent tore out? Part of the big thing is in A's teeth in panel 10.

[see]

No, there is no need to. We have yet to see evidence that there is SR at all.

Except for the fact that it's a devil. The only Wizards-published devils that don't have SR are lemures, imps, and gulthirs, the most pathetic devils there are. Granted, it's not proof, since this could be a total DM creation, but it certainly is evidence.

[Warren Dew]

Um, teamwork? Cooperation? Despite talking being a free action in D&D terms, it's reasonable for talk between members of the same side in a battle to be terse and to the point.

It would have been two syllables terser to say "Vaarsuvius, would you ..." rather than "Vaarsuvius, I need you to ...". I think it's pretty clear that Hinjo thinks he's giving an order, not making a request, and I think it's very clear that Vaarsuvius is taking it that way.

The situation is very much the same as with Miko in strip #215, where Vaarsuvius initially refuses to take an order from Miko - "nor do I take orders from those intellectually inferior to myself". The only difference is that in the earlier case, the plan was clear enough that Durkon was able to convince Vaarsuvius that the order made sense, plus Vaarsuvius didn't have anything better to do with that round's actions anyway. In this case, Hinjo's order makes no obvious sense, and Vaarsuvius is quite justified in continuing to cast offensive spells instead.


Can't help but contrast V's refusal to help Hinjo here with his prior excellent teamwork with Elan: giving him advice on how to make his illusions more effective.

That was after Vaarsuvius was out of spells, not to mention it was Vaarsuvius giving the advice in that situation, not taking the orders.


Are we talking about the same V, who can rant about "its" own arcane superiority until the end of days?

Exactly. In fact, it seems that all high level magicians in the Ootsiverse believe that they are the only ones who can do any significant amount of damage, with the "meat shields" lacking in any real offensive capability. Given the number crunching done by others in this thread, it seems that the magicians are even mostly justified in this belief, though not quite as completely justified as folks like Xykon, Eugene, and Vaarsuvius assume.

[Manoftyr]

I really don't see why everyone has been mad at V, he's been acting nothing but selflessly imho, he's been desperately trying to find Haley forever now and refuses to sleep or take even the smallest break from his efforts and has made it clear before that the reason he is doing it is out of some feeling of responsibility as well as a large degree of loyalty to her...that's commendable in my book.

Also, :shrugs: I just don't like Hinjo so I probably wouldn't of flew him up either...but then again I have a more or less generic loathing of the Paladins in this comic, period, save O-Chul, that and the way Hinjo was all so willing to put the letter of the law before his loyalty to his kingdom and liege, who was also his uncle, and have him arrested despite the kind of chaos that would cause and without considering what Shojo's actual goals were...leaves a rather bad taste in my mouth, I think he's a twit.

Also V said the reason he was fighting the creature was to protect Shojo's people which seemed to me to be a rather blunt and undiplomatic way of saying "I'll hold the thing off, everyone run back to the ship!" again...extremely heroic and selfless on V's part.

Personally, I'm kinda thinking along the lines that everyone on that boat is behaving like an idiot 'save' V who seems to be the only one trying to actively reunite the OotS and finally get us off this damned side-plot.


-Edit, scratch that, I probably 'would' have flown Hinjo up, if only because A. he could work as a suitable distraction and B. he might get himself killed =p

[Kompera]

I forsee V getting some very painful/embarrassing comeuppance in the next five comics. She's really asking for it.

Awww... Despite his/her (damn, I'm done with that as of my first usage. I'm using the generic male pronoun from now on, which does not imply that I think V is male) behavior of late, I've been feeling sorry for V.

It appears to me that his more callous behavior of late has been brought on by stress and overwork. V has been so desperate to rejoin his missing friends, which shows a huge amount of loyalty and dispels any "V thinks casters are superior" theories (why would a Wizard spend so much time looking for a Rogue, if he thought that Rogues were useless because they don't have magic?), that he has worked himself into such a poor state that his robes are dirty, his face is lined, and he has lost a lot of brain-mouth barrier. Yeah, V is a Magic supremacist. Why would he not be? He can do anything any of the rest of the order can do, and that's with a "build" which would be considered very non-optimized by charop standards. Adding to his stress is the fact that, despite all his hard work and his awesome magical abilities, he has failed to find a magical solution around the problem of finding his lost companions.

He may also be in love with Haley (whether "he" is male or female), because he absolutely refuses to believe that she might be dead.

Just my rambling thoughts. Back to your regularly scheduled programming.

[Ptorquemada]

Yay for Durkon and cleverness!

I was once playing in a party where the GM had this truly monstrous iron golem thing with a gazillion hit dice and the only way to defeat it was to sprinkle some kind of fairy dust up its nose (I'm being slightly facetious, but that was the gist of it). The first time we ran into it we already had the magic powder, but the GM figured there was no reasonable way for us to get anywhere near the thing's face (we'd been specifically told by the folks that gave us the powder that we couldn't use any kind of missle-based delivery system because it was too likely to miss -- in which case we would be hosed since the powder was extremely rare and they couldn't get more any time soon). In other words, he'd put this little encounter in for the sole purpose of getting us to soil ourselves and run away.

Except that the party figured out a way to chain a bunch of abilities and miscellaneous magic gizmos to put one of the characters at nose height for just long enough (can't remember the details, though I think teleport and a ring of feather falling factored into it).

He was Not Pleased, since this totally ruined the rest of the script. He ended up inventing some kind of anti-magic field to prevent the spells from functioning and keep his railroad plot rolling down the chosen track, but he never did get the "PCs running in abject terror" effect he was looking for.

[MyrddinDerwydd]

Hmm, I'm impressed by how versatile Durkon has been with how he uses Thor's Might. It's been used for a lot of different things all through the comic, and even if it's a little redundant, it seems to be a rather important bit of clericing in the grand scheme of things. :) Team Cleric-Paladin FTW!

[Ptorquemada]

N, silver and gold are used as fillings due to he fact that they do not tarnish or rust. Iron rusts which would lead to (fatal) lock jaw, so no dentist in America would ever use iron.

Despite what your mother may have told you, rust itself has almost nothing to do with lockjaw; it's perfectly possible to contract tetanus from a shiny new nail, a sharp rock, a shard of glass, a stainless steel eyeball fork, or anything else that can punture the skin and let the tetanus bacteria in.

That said, the disadvantages of a filling material that deteriorates in a moist, oxygenated environment should be fairly obvious, unless the dentist is really, really trying to drum up repeat business (probably the same 1 out of 5 dentists surveyed that recommend sugar flavored gum with extra sugar and corn syrup sauce to their patients who chew gum).

[Nevitan]

Despite what your mother may have told you, rust itself has almost nothing to do with lockjaw; it's perfectly possible to contract tetanus from a shiny new nail, a sharp rock, a shard of glass, a stainless steel eyeball fork, or anything else that can punture the skin and let the tetanus bacteria in.

That said, the disadvantages of a filling material that deteriorates in a moist, oxygenated environment should be fairly obvious, unless the dentist is really, really trying to drum up repeat business (probably the same 1 out of 5 dentists surveyed that recommend sugar flavored gum with extra sugar and corn syrup sauce to their patients who chew gum).

even if your right, thats a pretty rude way of putting it don't you think?:smallconfused:

[Marduk Prophet]

He may also be in love with Haley (whether "he" is male or female), because he absolutely refuses to believe that she might be dead.

Just my rambling thoughts. Back to your regularly scheduled programming.

Interesting theory there, but I ultimately disagree with it. Either V is an effeminate male who enjoys spending time with Haley because he can relate to her somehow, or V is female. It has already been established that Vaarsuvius is married and V simply doesn't seem remotely the type to even harbor thoughts of establishing such a relationship with another, much less with one who would die long before 'him'.

I do like the idea, though. :smallsmile:

It seems every other point has been beaten to death by the DnDers and the comic afficionados, as well as the tropers. Let's just hope we don't destroy the fun of this comic before the next one arrives. :smallbiggrin:

[Arkenputtyknife]

No, latin for silver is argentum. Argent is an English word that does indeed come from latin (via French like most of the English words). It means something of silver or silver-coloured.

In heraldry, it usually comes out as white, since white is easier to paint than silver. White is not a standard tincture in heraldry and is usually reserved as a representation of 'argent'. Same goes for 'Or' (gold) and yellow. This has caused arguments with those not in the know.

Many years back, when I was involved in a small battle reenactment society, I chose a coat of arms belonging to one of the more obscure historic participants in the battle we were recreating. The heraldic description (full version now forgotten) included "argent three lions passant". Having to explain to the know-nothings why the lions were white when "everyone knows that argent means silver" soon became tiresome. The heraldry experts gave it a thumbs up.

Changing the subject, pure silver most certainly does tarnish—which is why "silver" fillings are only about 25% silver, the greater part of the rest being mercury. Wonder what difference that would make to the potency of Argent's teeth?

[Kompera]

We are assuming here that V would have seen it [bless weapon] cast, a common assumption in game play, but a rather unrealistic one.
Unrealistic to assume it had been cast, or unrealistic to assume that V had seen it cast?

If the former, I'll refer you to "Look, they're already down there buffing themselves with fancy enchantments and abjurations and whatnot." (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0585.html)
If the Imp can see them buffing, while flying high above the (soon to be) battle field and conversing with his poker buddy, surely V can see it while standing much closer to Hinjo and having the highest Spot check in the OotS.

If the latter, please refer to the aforementioned high Spot check.

[Kompera]

Interesting theory there, but I ultimately disagree with it. Either V is an effeminate male who enjoys spending time with Haley because he can relate to her somehow, or V is female. It has already been established that Vaarsuvius is married and V simply doesn't seem remotely the type to even harbor thoughts of establishing such a relationship with another, much less with one who would die long before 'him'.
Hmmm, one theory shattered. Ok, I submit 'loves' in place of 'in love with'. :)
Don't Elves give their loyalty slowly, but once given it is given for good? So perhaps in his long journeys with TOotS V has grown to love his companions (yes, even Belkar, whom V had a running prank exchange with, and don't forget the kiss (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0316.html)), and this is why he refuses to rest, er, trance, until he has managed to reunite himself and the portion of the Order he is with, with the remaining portion which is lost to him at present.

But I don't think V is an effeminate male, even if he is male. He's just an Elf, and they look "pretty" to Humans regardless of gender (beardless, slight build, long hair, etc. And the females share all of those traits, and don't tend towards buxom unless the Giant's surname is Jackson :smallbiggrin: So there's not much to distinguish Elf genders unless the Elf in particular makes it clear.), and V hasn't shown much femininity aside from an uncertain gender based on appearance.

[Caleniel]

even if your right, thats a pretty rude way of putting it don't you think?:smallconfused:

Rude it might have been, but at least he is right.

Tetanus is caused by a bacterium, Clostridium tetani, commonly found in soil. Maybe the lockjaw-from-rust misunderstanding has to do with iron corroding in soil.

But I bet ingesting that much oxidised iron can't be good for you. It wouldn't constitute a real poisoning I think, since iron isn't poisonous as such, but possibly diarrhea. And I don't know how the conversation brought me to this point, but I'm definitely leaving it now. :-)

[Laurentio II]

Well, Hinjo's attacking with, say, Str 14, at 11th level could easily equal out to 52 or so assuming his entire array of attacks all hit (1d10+3 three times averages about 26+11 from Smite Evil, +15 or so from Argent's bite assuming Argent uses Dire Wolf stats).
One attack. For what we can see, there has been only a single attack (could been a Charge), and it's consistent with the fact that he is just passing near the monster. As a DM, I won't allow a PC to deliver a full attack in such a fast situation.

Anyway, I've to take in consideration the SR. It's possible that Hinjo has an good constant damage, while Vaarsavius has a potential but not reliable higher damage rate.

About the fact that the devil is not screaming when blasted by Vaarsavius, mind that he it's mouth is over ten meters higher, and lighting are involved. You don't scream when electrocuted. I can tell by experience.

[Kingrat]

now this is more like it. action is much better in moving the plot around unlike the last few posts....

keep it up!

[Soulus101]

gah! this is tense...

[Zolem]

I doubt. Empowered Lighting Bolt? Should be 18d6 (let's say 63 damage, 30 if saved). Five Magic Missiles are around 17 damages, so we are speaking of 50/80 damage points.

Shojo used a Charged, Full Attack with Smite Evil, paired with a large wolf bite. It's leagues away.

You forgot two things.
1) Devils have resistance 20 to lightning, making the first attack 10/43
2) Spell resistance, which is easier to overcome with higher level spells, but EACH INDIVIDUAL Magic Missle has to overcome the spell resistance, so maybe 3 or 4 hit, all 5 would just be too lucky.

As such I'd put the real damage at about 18/41.

[M84]

Hey again.

While I've already made my opinion concerning V in this arc (I liked him before since I'm partial to mage types in most games, D&D based or otherwise), I confess I'm a little torn about how I want this matter to conclude.

I see a few ways this scenario could end:

1) V remains haughty yet continues to do no damage whatsoever to the devil, and V's refusal to use teamwork will make things worse. Eventually, the matter is resolved no thanks to V and V goes through a Break the Haughty scene. And V then gets some much needed rest and gets better.

2) Something really bad happens (like NPC death) during the battle due to V's refusal to cooperate. This causes V to go into a Heroic BSOD later and leads to some serious soul searching. And V then gets some much needed rest and gets better.

3) V manages to turn the tides against the devil, fueling V's arrogance to dangerous levels, to the point where V is even more of an Insufferable Genius than usual. V's magical badassery is vindicated, but the ego remains unchecked. And V then doesn't get some much needed rest and gets worse.


It's odd that the scenario where V really IS that good might actually make V worse in the long run.

I'm looking forward to being proven utterly wrong by Rich in the next few strips...unless he decides to switch back to Haley.

[Mercenary Pen]

If Elan was really on the ball, he'd probably just start chucking any silver coinage he has at the devil- just to annoy it...

[Tundar]

No, latin for silver is argentum. Argent is an English word that does indeed come from latin (via French like most of the English words). It means something of silver or silver-coloured.
Thank you, that suddenly makes this comic make more sense. I thought it was something about knowing the true name of the devil/demon/whatever they are fighting.

[Selene]

We have yet to see evidence that there is SR at all.

We also have yet to see evidence that V has done any damage at all. After all, his tactics tend toward "well, I just need to try another spell."

[Myrdhale]

No, latin for silver is argentum. Argent is an English word that does indeed come from latin (via French like most of the English words). It means something of silver or silver-coloured.

Actually, Argent is the french word for silver. Derived from the Latin Argentum, of course, but The English word is taken from the French.

Just thought I'd add that :smallbiggrin: (J'aime le Français)

Edit: d'oh, I guess I mentally skipped the part in Brackets. Sorry!

[Flickerdart]

If Elan was really on the ball, he'd probably just start chucking any silver coinage he has at the devil- just to annoy it...
That's an awesome strategy. I'll need to keep it in mind, just in case.

[Arkenputtyknife]

Rude it might have been, but at least he is right.

Tetanus is caused by a bacterium, Clostridium tetani, commonly found in soil. Maybe the lockjaw-from-rust misunderstanding has to do with iron corroding in soil.

The "rust causes tetanus" idea may have come about because a common way of getting it is to step on a nail that's been left lying around. Such nails will usually be rusty. Rust is easy to see but tetanus bacteria aren't, so…


But I bet ingesting that much oxidised iron can't be good for you. It wouldn't constitute a real poisoning I think, since iron isn't poisonous as such, but possibly diarrhea.

Actually, it's very poisonous in excess. The effects of iron poisoning are similar to what Belkar is currently going through, and it can be fatal if untreated. It's rare in adults but can happen easily in children if they get their hands on a bottle of multivitamins/mineral supplements. Which, considering how important it is in small quantities, is quite ironic. :smallyuk:

Symptoms (http://www.emedicinehealth.com/iron_poisoning/page3_em.htm)


And I don't know how the conversation brought me to this point, but I'm definitely leaving it now. :-)

Wuss. :smallbiggrin:

[Doug Lampert]

I doubt. Empowered Lighting Bolt? Should be 18d6 (let's say 63 damage, 30 if saved). Five Magic Missiles are around 17 damages, so we are speaking of 50/80 damage points.

Shojo used a Charged, Full Attack with Smite Evil, paired with a large wolf bite. It's leagues away.


You forgot two things.
1) Devils have resistance 20 to lightning, making the first attack 10/43
2) Spell resistance, which is easier to overcome with higher level spells, but EACH INDIVIDUAL Magic Missle has to overcome the spell resistance, so maybe 3 or 4 hit, all 5 would just be too lucky.

As such I'd put the real damage at about 18/41.

Nope, the Magic Missiles are a single spell, you roll once per foe.

But, it's 10d6*1.5 damage, 18d6 is nonsense. And the Devil saves on any reasonable roll.

If V penetrates SR the lightning bolt does an average of 52.25 before the save. Then the Devil almost certainly saves and then takes off the resistance leaving maybe 8 or so points of damage from V's big attack.

DougL

[the_tick_rules]

The NPC's are sure coming up in the world.

[Eric]

No, there is no need to. We have yet to see evidence that there is SR at all.


We have yet to see any evidence V's attacks have done anything at all to the Demon.

One explanation is that he's not damaging it. And one explanation why is SR (no saves vs magic missile, so saving rolls being high isn't enough).

This seems to be to constitute both evidence and causation.

PS "man" used to be the neuter gender, wo and mer were (IIRC spelling) were the gender differentiations. And if feminists don't like "man" being used in "chairman" etc, I would ask: Since human is longer than man are men less than human? Since woman has the word "man" and two more letters, are women more than men? No? Then don't sweat "chairman". Yes? Well I find that offensive.

[brilliantlight]

Um, teamwork? Cooperation? Despite talking being a free action in D&D terms, it's reasonable for talk between members of the same side in a battle to be terse and to the point. And heck, Hinjo didn't even phrase it as an order, but as a statement of need: "I need you to..." For his part, V didn't even let him finish the statement, which I would expect to continue "... so I can make effective use of my silvered weapon and smite evil". No, V just assumes he knows it all and is the only effective member of the party, despite the 6-month ongoing failure of his own efforts. He's not only arrogant and obnoxious, he's WRONG on a monumental scale.

It's neither obnoxious nor arrogant to assume your teammates will adjust their actions to better leverage the overall assets of your party. Hinjo's request was only a trifle more burdensome to V than "move over there so I can get a flank," and if V used a little imagination I bet he could figure out a way to accomplish some of his own goals while helping Hinjo at the same time.

Note Durkon's response in contrast to Vaarsuvius': Durkon didn't even ask for more explanation, he just assumed Hinjo's request was reasonable even if he didn't know what Hinjo had in mind. After a few sharp words from Durkon, Hinjo went along with Durkon's unusual command even though he didn't know where it was going, and *bam*, Hinjo was where he wanted to be, while Durkon was at the same time in a better position to deal out damage himself. Meanwhile V continues to go it alone, neither giving nor receiving any leverage from his nominal teammates.

Score:
Vaarsuvius: arrogant and obnoxious
Durkon: humble, cooperative and thereby more effectual
Hinjo: just trying to do his job.


Agreed, V is too obsessed in trying to do everything herself instead of doing things in the best way possible. He acts if the others are worthless and they are not.

[brilliantlight]

I am aware, but: "Shojo used a Charged, Full Attack with Smite Evil, paired with a large wolf bite. It's leagues away." doesn't seem like something that I would have expected from the mock-senile former ruler of Azure City.

That could have been from before the assassination attempt that caused him to pretend he was senile.

[teratorn]

In heraldry, it usually comes out as white, since white is easier to paint than silver. White is not a standard tincture in heraldry and is usually reserved as a representation of 'argent'. Same goes for 'Or' (gold) and yellow. This has caused arguments with those not in the know.

Incredible, you're the third person (at least) in the forums who makes that remark about argent and heraldry. Didn't know it was something so popular.

[John Campbell]

You forgot two things.
1) Devils have resistance 20 to lightning, making the first attack 10/43
2) Spell resistance, which is easier to overcome with higher level spells, but EACH INDIVIDUAL Magic Missle has to overcome the spell resistance, so maybe 3 or 4 hit, all 5 would just be too lucky.
Um. All of these statements are wrong.

Standard devils have no electricity resistance. (The Giant's seem to be at least partially homebrew, so it's possible that they do, but I don't recall any evidence of it.) The standard devil resistances are immunity to fire and poison, resistance 10 to acid and cold. Nothing against electricity or... SONIC!

Spell level doesn't affect SR checks at all; it's a straight-up caster level check (plus any Spell Penetration or whatnot that might apply... spell level is not a factor, though).

You check spell resistance once per spell, not once per effect, so the magic missiles will be all or nothing.

[brilliantlight]

Whatever it is it is not a pit fiend. Their average intelligence is 26 so the dumbest one possible is a 19 intelligence one (3+16 = 19). It is possibly a horned devil with extra hit dice. With an average intelligence of 14 it could have an intelligence as low as 7.

[neoseph7]

I doubt. Empowered Lighting Bolt? Should be 18d6 (let's say 63 damage, 30 if saved).

Empowered spells deal 1.5 X the roll result. so 1.5 X (15d6). Further, the average is not the same.

1.5 X Avg(15d6)= 1.5 X 52.5= 78.75
Avg(18d6)= 63

Just wanted to throw that out.:smalltongue:

[David Argall]

We have yet to see any evidence V's attacks have done anything at all to the Demon.

One explanation is that he's not damaging it. And one explanation why is SR (no saves vs magic missile, so saving rolls being high isn't enough).

This seems to be to constitute both evidence and causation.
This seems to constitute circular reasoning. It would be explanation of why V is not damaging the Devil [not demon]. It is not proof that V is not damaging the devil.

But V is continuing to cast spells at the devil. To say V is doing so despite being able to see the spells are ineffective simply contradicts all the evidence we have to date. Note in particular here that V has met spell resistance back in Azure City and did not react by mindlessly continuing to cast spells. We have a clear assumption that V can see the spells and their results, and that they are doing damage.

We might add that Hinjo makes no comment about V's efforts being futile. We are of course using a weak point here, but Hinjo should be able to see the spell effects too, and so addressing V with "Your spells aren't working. Fly me onto it and I can do some real damage." becomes a superior alternative. Equally, his irritation with V fits better if he thinks V is behaving in a sane, if mistaken manner.



For what we can see, there has been only a single attack (could been a Charge), and it's consistent with the fact that he is just passing near the monster. As a DM, I won't allow a PC to deliver a full attack in such a fast situation.
We might add here that unless Hinjo has the right feat, and the DM rules it would actually apply here [doubtful], the devil gets an AoO on Hinjo. Of course, he could have rolled a one, but again we find that those saying V is acting stupidly are trying to have things both ways.



Quote:
Originally Posted by David Argall
We are assuming here that V would have seen it [bless weapon] cast, a common assumption in game play, but a rather unrealistic one.

Unrealistic to assume it had been cast, or unrealistic to assume that V had seen it cast?

If the former, I'll refer you to "Look, they're already down there buffing themselves with fancy enchantments and abjurations and whatnot."
If the Imp can see them buffing, while flying high above the (soon to be) battle field and conversing with his poker buddy, surely V can see it while standing much closer to Hinjo and having the highest Spot check in the OotS.
V would be busy with his/her own buffing. And we have no need to think the imp saw a thing. Assuming the enemy is buffing is pretty automatic, as is telling your tool to rush into combat because they are.


If the latter, please refer to the aforementioned high Spot check.
Please refer to the standard OOTS rule that PCs always miss spot checks unless the plot requires them to make them.

However the basic point here is that if we assume V did spot Hinjo buffing and determined it to be Bless, we also would assume V can spot that his/her spells are having no effect. So this line of argument leads to the conclusion that the spells are damaging the creature.



it's a devil. The only Wizards-published devils that don't have SR are lemures, imps, and gulthirs, the most pathetic devils there are. Granted, it's not proof, since this could be a total DM creation, but it certainly is evidence.
It seems conclusive proof that devils with zero SR exist. So we can't assume this one has SR. Moreover, it needs SR 15 or so before V needs to even roll.

[ericgrau]

Empowered spells deal 1.5 X the roll result. so 1.5 X (15d6). Further, the average is not the same.

1.5 X Avg(15d6)= 1.5 X 52.5= 78.75
Avg(18d6)= 63

Just wanted to throw that out.:smalltongue:

Devils do not have electricity resistance, as mentioned. Lightning bolt caps at 10d6, meaning V's average damage is actual 52.5 (3.5 x 10 x 1.5)., or 26.25 on a save. The average damage of the magic missiles is 17.5. 70 total if both hit, 42.75 total on a successful save.

For devils SR = 12 + CR across the board
If this were a CR appropriate challenge then V would have to roll a 12 (45%) to break its spell resistance. But more likely it is a couple levels higher. The party is only 2 PCs and 1 NPC, so it can't be that much higher. So I'd peg V's chance of breaking its SR at around 35-40%.

V's spell save DC is 13+int mod+feats, probably around 18-20 (empower spell does not raise a spell's save DC). Devils tend to have a reflex save a little higher than their CR, maybe 2-3 higher. So his chance of making the save is very high, at least 75%.

yawn, skip to the answer here
So V averages at most (75% * 26.25 + 25% * 52.5 + 17.5) *40% = 20.1 damage or at least (90% * 26.25 + 10% * 52.5 + 17.5) * 30% =13.9 damage.

A smite with a katana (bastard sword) averages 5.5+(1.5 x str mod) + (paladin level) + (magic weapon, probably zero) damage. Maybe around 20 if he's about 10th level. More if he's higher level and/or has a magic weapon and/or some paladin self buffs. Plus Argent's attack. Devils have decent AC so maybe only 1/4-1/2 hit (though he could have buffs, str, cha and MW weapon bonuses), but we could also assume that he got a full attack. Or if we say he and argent are just lucky this round he may average half that.

yawn, skip to the answer here
Hinjo averages at least 20 damage, and Argent adds some, but likewise less than half might hit. A full attack or pally buffs might help though.

Boo ya! Math ftw.

[Arkenputtyknife]

Incredible, you're the third person (at least) in the forums who makes that remark about argent and heraldry. Didn't know it was something so popular.

Third at least? I must have missed the others.

In any case, it's not really surprising that it would be popular among many D&D fans. It's a small step from role-playing in a more-or-less medieval setting to wanting to learn more about the real-world setting that spawned it. And, of course, there's the matter of painting miniatures.

[Yoritomo Himeko]

Um, is V really in any condition to fly a heavily armored paladin around? I can't blame him/her for not wanting to do it.

This was an ok strip.

[teratorn]

Third at least? I must have missed the others.

Other thread, Chronos and Trazoi if I remember correctly.

[factotum]

But V is continuing to cast spells at the devil. To say V is doing so despite being able to see the spells are ineffective simply contradicts all the evidence we have to date. Note in particular here that V has met spell resistance back in Azure City and did not react by mindlessly continuing to cast spells. We have a clear assumption that V can see the spells and their results, and that they are doing damage.


As already pointed out, what V did back in Azure City and what V does now are not necessarily related, because he hadn't driven himself half mad by not trancing for months when he was in Azure City. I don't think the V from Azure City would have been stupid enough to try engaging a creature that size within easy punching distance, but he clearly did that in #585.

[Warren Dew]

So V averages at most ... 13.9 damage.

A smite with a katana ... around 20 ... 1/4-1/2 hit ... Hinjo averages at least 20 damage, and Argent adds some

It's 20 only if he hits, right? So if he hits 1/4 to 1/2 the time, wouldn't that be an average of about 5-10, plus some from Argent, to compare to Vaarsuvius' 13.9?

I think it's a mistake to focus on Hinjo's damage, though. From the comic, Argent is tearing a much bigger gash than Hinjo is, big enough to imply that Argent is doing several times as much damage. Since Hinjo is familiar with what Argent can do, that's probably why he was so anxious to try this trick.

Of course, Vaarsuvius is probably not at all familiar with what Argent can do, plus Argent wasn't even deployed when Hinjo addressed Vaarsuvius, so there's no reason for Vaarsuvius to take Argent's damage into account.

[Kish]

That could have been from before the assassination attempt that caused him to pretend he was senile.
He was never a paladin, though, so no Smite Evil.

[Occasional Sage]

Other thread, Chronos and Trazoi if I remember correctly.

And, I suspect, many more (like myself) who didn't bother to say it because we'd just be repeating other people.

[Prowl]

As already pointed out, what V did back in Azure City and what V does now are not necessarily related, because he hadn't driven himself half mad by not trancing for months when he was in Azure City. I don't think the V from Azure City would have been stupid enough to try engaging a creature that size within easy punching distance, but he clearly did that in #585.

The only reason V was a 'team player' in Azure City was that he had run out of spells to cast. Coaching Elan was the closest he could come to actually casting a spell himself. V doing what V thinks is best rather than what someone else thinks is best is a consistent personality trait.

[Vest Man!]

I love the use of puns and play on words.

[brilliantlight]

He was never a paladin, though, so no Smite Evil.

True, but I read it that he was referring to the fact he was thinking coherently not about the attack itself.

[CompassRosie]

Fantastic. Go go Hinjo! He deserves some kind of heroic theme music. And look how polite he is when he thinks Durkon is coming on to him - "I don't think this is really the time or place..." What a sweetie!

I love V and I'm really worried now. Something is going to go wrong. Please, please don't let somebody nice like Lien get killed because V is too obsessed to let himself trance.

[Vest Man!]

Fantastic. Go go Hinjo! He deserves some kind of heroic theme music. And look how polite he is when he thinks Durkon is coming on to him - "I don't think this is really the time or place..." What a sweetie!

I love V and I'm really worried now. Something is going to go wrong. Please, please don't let somebody nice like Lien get killed because V is too obsessed to let himself trance.

And unfortunately now isn't the best time for trancing.

[Halvormerlinaky]

Actually, that would be dead rogues, if I remember right and they don't get Sneak Attack if they don't manage to deal at least one point of damage with their non-SA damage. And it seems pretty unsurprising to me that Hinjo has a whole golf bag of katanas.

That's gotta come into the comic at some point. "Hmm, I think I'll take the 7-Iro... I mean the mithral katana, please."

[Halvormerlinaky]

I disagree. So far, all of V's attacks have elicited no response from the giant devil. Hinjo and Argent's attacks, on the other hand, got a very large pain response from Big Red. It's possible that it's spell resistance is higher than normal, and that, in fact, V's spells are some of the least damaging things that could be thrown at it.

On a side note, Is it just me, or did V's second speech bubble sound a lot like something Eugene would have said, if a bit more verbose?

I disagree with your disagreement. Logically, V is the better damage-dealer.

Unfortunately, this is the sort of situation wherein logic tends to take a holiday.

Thus, just because you can, potentially, do more damage, it doesn't mean that you will. It's a tortoise and hare sort of moment. Either go with the one who could do massive damage, or the one who always will do a bit.

Hey, I guess I really do agree with you.

[Red XIV]

On the available evidence, it's SR is insignificent. Note here that V is acting like she thought the spells were working. Contrast with his behavior back in Azure City when she met an undead with strong SR. He did not continuously cast spells at a target she didn't expect to affect. Here he is continuing to cast spells.
There's one major problem with this assessment: you're acting as if V is just as sane now as he was in the battle for Azure City. We've had many strips illustrating that this is far from the case. V's mental state is constantly deteriorating from prolonged lack of trance and repeated failure in his efforts to locate the other half of the Order. To assume that he would react to a situation in the same way now that he would have then just doesn't make sense.

[Eric]

This seems to constitute circular reasoning. It would be explanation of why V is not damaging the Devil [not demon]. It is not proof that V is not damaging the devil.



Says the man who seems to have practically invented circular reasoning...

Your original statement was "we have no evidence he's not hurting the demon". Well, when the demon is hurt with a charge attack, he goes "RAAAAARRRRGGHHH". When he's hurt by piddly little attacks that DR removes, he says nothing. When he gets hit by an empowered 1.5*(10d6) and magic missiles (5d4+5) he says nothing.

Either these attacks did so little damage they were less than a single attack, or they were resisted.

In D&D there are three ways to resist spell damage:

Saving roll (only halves damage from lightning, nothing to Magic Missile)
Damage resistance (won't work with Magic Missile)
Spell resistance (No damage at all if managed)

Given that it's still an average of 44 damage from those two spells if saved against and there's no evidence of damage resistance for lightning, this doesn't seem likely to be too little to avoid a "RAAAAARRRGGGHHH" and if it is, then Hinjo's attack must have done more than about 50 damage, which requires a save or be reduced to -1HP.

Likely?

No.

Add to that your original post was nothing more than "I see no ships", your accusation that the lack of evidence for damage being DONE is "circular reasoning" is double assinine.

[Eric]

It's 20 only if he hits, right? So if he hits 1/4 to 1/2 the time, wouldn't that be an average of about 5-10, plus some from Argent, to compare to Vaarsuvius' 13.9?

Melee attacks either hit or don't. BAB for a 9th level warrior is +9. Gigantic is (IIRC) +8. Specialisation +2, strength +4 (Fighter type, but +2 if he's pumped Cha) and I would call this flat footed or at least +4 because it's a suprise (he'd have been stunned to see a paladin sit on dwarf's head, never mind that dwarf turning into a dwarfapult).

Total bonus +27.

AC is probably somewhere around 20, 25 tops.

So he'd have to roll -2 on a d20 to hit. So 20 average. Multiple hits (+27, +22, I think if he's got +9BAB).

40 hp/r.

Against groups a mage is a great damage dealer. Against a single "boss" foe, fighters are far better off. And they never run out of "sword", wheras mages do run out of spells.

Mages *used* to be weak and then the powerhouse. However, that future powerhouse was the entire REASON why someone wanted to play mage, even if they had one magic missile then nothing apart from "mule" to do. It was the reason for a mage to be wanted in a party.

But that's all "occult" and so the Cleric was upped "to show them we're not satanists" and the mage nerfed later on because of spell resistance and easy saves. And so the fighter is better later on and the Cleric even better (buffs making them better than a fighter but giving spells when combat isn't needed).

[Eric]

And unfortunately now isn't the best time for trancing.

<voice="leo sayer"> You make me feel like trancing </voice>

[Kaytara]

V doing what V thinks is best rather than what someone else thinks is best is a consistent personality trait.

Considering that V has an Intelligence score that is somewhere in the early 20's, that kind of behaviour is probably justified. V is smarter by a wide margin than his compatriots, so logically his own conclusions and assessments of the situation are more reliable. Moreover, having travelled with the Order, V might feel that he is surrounded by idiots all the time, with a few occasional exceptions. The reason V accepts Roy as a leader in the first place is because he knows Roy is intelligent and thus won't completely screw things up. Which hasn't stopped Roy on a few occasions. So it might be natural to extend that scepticism of the team's judgement abilities to Hinjo.

So yeah, I think that as the Smart Guy, Vaarsuvius is technically justified in thinking his own judgement to be superior to others. What he fails to grasp, however, is that intelligence isn't the only stat that matters, that it might sometimes be about wisdom rather than intellect, and sometimes about pieces of information he just doesn't know.


There's one major problem with this assessment: you're acting as if V is just as sane now as he was in the battle for Azure City. We've had many strips illustrating that this is far from the case. V's mental state is constantly deteriorating from prolonged lack of trance and repeated failure in his efforts to locate the other half of the Order. To assume that he would react to a situation in the same way now that he would have then just doesn't make sense.

I've seen this argument mentioned several times in this thread. But what solid proof do we have that the lack of trancing is actually affecting V's mental faculties? Vaarsuvius is as cold, clear-thinking and analytical as ever, if not more, and is still very adept at casting spells. The only thing I would consider plausible is that he is taking a WIS penalty, rather than an INT penalty, but there is still no reason to contribute that to a lack of trancing. V's desperation to prove himself right is IMO exactly how a human character with the same megalomanic personality would act, due to sheer frustration and a feeling of inadequateness after six months' worth of failures. Sleep or rest probably isn't a factor here.

So yeah, I guess a wisdom penalty IS likely here, I just think that trancing wouldn't solve the problem. Nothing short of V regaining faith in his own abilities would solve the problem.

[Selene]

PS "man" used to be the neuter gender, wo and mer were (IIRC spelling) were the gender differentiations. And if feminists don't like "man" being used in "chairman" etc, I would ask: Since human is longer than man are men less than human? Since woman has the word "man" and two more letters, are women more than men? No? Then don't sweat "chairman". Yes? Well I find that offensive.

Was that actually as random as it sounded like it was? Or did I miss something?


But V is continuing to cast spells at the devil. To say V is doing so despite being able to see the spells are ineffective simply contradicts all the evidence we have to date.

Like how he keeps casting locating spells to find Haley, even though they're clearly not working? And then he starts inventing all new locating spells, even though it's pissing everyone else off, and affecting his health, and it's still not working?


Equally, his irritation with V fits better if he thinks V is behaving in a sane, if mistaken manner.

Think of this from Hinjo's POV. You ask someone for help. He doesn't even let you finish your request before slamming you down saying "I am the only person capable of understanding the situation, so shut up and leave me alone." That sounds pretty annoying to me. If he's right, he's arrogant. If he's wrong, he's an ass.

[Zolem]

Um, as for the damage: Pit Fiends have DR 15 silver and good. As far as I know, neither bite nor katana strike have that as their damage type, so it is equally possible that Hinjo & his wolf did no damage, save for that of a smite.

I fail to see what more effective tactic V could have adopted other than blasting. She, unlike the so-called Batman-wizard had no time to prepare, she doesn't know all spells, and I'm quite convinced that Pit Fiends can easily save all hare-brained combos like "I cast sleep on him, then I coup de grace him", not that any are avaible on V's level, opponents of his CR are far too strong to fall to the "Batman" tactics anyway.

Having said that, quickened MM was idiotic waste of spell, really. Orb of Force is much better choice on this level, and it ignores SR.

ACtually, Paladin moutns are good aligned and type, so they automaticaly do good damage. Also, you don't think the head-paladin wouldn't spend a bit of money to enchant his sword with holy?


Why? It's actually a quite effective method. Elephant hunters used to use it. Cut one Achillies tendon and the elephant can't move. Cut one on this devil and it falls down.

And let's not forget that there are some major arteries down there.


No, latin for silver is argentum. Argent is an English word that does indeed come from latin (via French like most of the English words). It means something of silver or silver-coloured.

Mainly used in Heraldry, which did origionate in France. I knew his name was silver, but I didn't get the title untill the last panle.


If Elan was really on the ball, he'd probably just start chucking any silver coinage he has at the devil- just to annoy it...

I've actually though about tryign to make a 'Throw Gil' type homebrew attack, so useing silver coins to get around damage reduction is great!

[Eric]

Was that actually as random as it sounded like it was? Or did I miss something.

No and yes.

:smallsmile:

Someone earlier on decided to forgo "his/her" or "hir" or "it" and just use the male pronoun as the generic. I was showing my agreement to that idea. Calling someone "him" or using "he" doesn't necessarily denote any decision on gender.

Hope that clears it up for you.

[SporeGames]

V is going to have the Heroic BSOD (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HeroicBSOD)soon, I think.


This forum probably single handedly boosted their visitor number by 50%.

And to stay on topic I HATE VBULLITIN.

And to really stay on topic I think Rick’s given more hints to V being a girl than a boy

And to really stay on topic... crap I forgot what I was going to say.

[Warren Dew]

And then he starts inventing all new locating spells, even though it's pissing everyone else off, and affecting his health, and it's still not working?

Elan seems pretty happy (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0508.html) that Vaarsuvius is searching for Haley. He only gets annoyed when it interferes with rescuing his hand puppet (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0554.html), and he's the only one who thinks his hand puppet is more important than finding Haley.

Don't forget that Vaarsuvius is the only one in this half of the group actually following a plan (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0505.html) for eventually finding Girard's gate and saving the world. Granted the plan doesn't seem to be working, but no one else has offered a better plan.


Think of this from Hinjo's POV. You ask someone for help. He doesn't even let you finish your request before slamming you down saying "I am the only person capable of understanding the situation, so shut up and leave me alone." That sounds pretty annoying to me.

If he had actually made a polite request - "could you" instead of "I need you to" - he might be justified in being annoyed. As it is, he's only annoyed because Vaarsuvius refused to follow his annoying order. When I look at it from Hinjo's point of view, it looks to me like he's got only himself to blame for not learning to be more polite and reasonable.

As for the interrupting, that's neither here nor there. Interrupting can save time if the interrupter has already figured out what the interruptee has to say, which can be important in combat situations. On the other hand, Vaarsuvius then continues with a two panel essay, so saving time may not be the issue here.

[Danukian]

"You can't be very effective against a big monster's ankles" just got added to my list of house rules. :smallbiggrin:

Besides the Achilles Tendon and Artery problems, there is the simple structure problems - if you take damage equal to 25% of your total HP to the torso, you should be seriously hurt but nothing a few "Cure" spells shouldn't fix. If you take 25% total HP worth of damage to an ankle, you foot should no longer be attached - and that should serious reduce the devil's effectiveness.

[Zolem]

Besides the Achilles Tendon and Artery problems, there is the simple structure problems - if you take damage equal to 25% of your total HP to the torso, you should be seriously hurt but nothing a few "Cure" spells shouldn't fix. If you take 25% total HP worth of damage to an ankle, you foot should no longer be attached - and that should serious reduce the devil's effectiveness.

As an aside, in the HERO system if you use the optional hit location table, there is an optional rule to use with the optional rule, that any limb only has 1/3 the BODY (HP) of the creatures total, and if all is lost in that limb, it is severed off. They then bleed 1 BODY per Phase, or per Turn if they suceeded in a CON roll +2 dificulty.

[Kaytara]

On the other hand, Vaarsuvius then continues with a two panel essay, so saving time may not be the issue here.

Yeah, but a two panel essay that he dishes out while casting. He doesn't let his talk get in the way of his actions the way it's sometimes happened in the past.

I agree with the rest of your post but I think your explanation for Hinjo's 'annoying' order was a stretch. "I need you to..." isn't really significantly more annoying than "Could you..." From an objective perspective. However, maybe V would have felt more inclined to listen if the command had been phrased in non-authorative manner that would have been trying to appeal to his goodwill rather than assuming that he would obediently cooperate.. I doubt that would have changed his answer, though.

As to the whole debate on whether or not V has been able to do any damage, I think it's worth pointing out that another failure of his magic would fit in nicely with the previous line of failures, thus leading to even further frustration and disillusionment, and further recklessness when it comes to regaining the effectiveness of his magic.
Therefore, it's likely that V isn't able to hurt the devil much, for story reasons - IF V's disillusionment is indeed where the arc is meant to be going, which is a different debate all in itself.

[Vest Man!]

<voice="leo sayer"> You make me feel like trancing </voice>

I could have tranced all night
I could have tranced all night
And still have begged for more.
I could have viewed my dreamings
And done a thousand things I've never done before.
I'll never know What made it so appealing;
Why all at once My spells took flight. I only know when I
Began to trance my eyes I could have tranced,
tranced, tranced all night!

[Kompera]

V would be busy with his/her own buffing. And we have no need to think the imp saw a thing.
Right, no need at all. Absolutely none. Zero, zip, nadda. Oh, except for one tiny thing. The Imp specifically said ""Look, they're already down there buffing themselves".

And since when does V casting a buff spell require that his eyes be closed?

You criticized the logic of another poster. I suggest that you refresh your own understanding of logic.

[Tobimaro]

I'm thinking that the lack of trance is affecting V's judgment. But then again it could be the "I'm a PC, You're just an NPC" thing that gets in the way of making Hinjo more effective in this fight. :smallfrown:

[John Campbell]

As for the interrupting, that's neither here nor there. Interrupting can save time if the interrupter has already figured out what the interruptee has to say, which can be important in combat situations. On the other hand, Vaarsuvius then continues with a two panel essay, so saving time may not be the issue here.

Talking is a Free Action.

[DBear]

Considering that V has an Intelligence score that is somewhere in the early 20's, that kind of behaviour is probably justified.


V himself says that he has 18 intelligence back in issue 31.

p.s. At first I thought V was female, but after looking at issue 186 after V was restored after being polymorphed, I'm switching to "V is male". IMO, it's just the robe and headband that make him look androgyn.

[Selene]

No and yes.

:smallsmile:

Someone earlier on decided to forgo "his/her" or "hir" or "it" and just use the male pronoun as the generic. I was showing my agreement to that idea. Calling someone "him" or using "he" doesn't necessarily denote any decision on gender.

Hope that clears it up for you.

Ah, ok. I think it does. Thanks. I am among those convinced that V is male anyway, so I just always call him "him."


If he had actually made a polite request - "could you" instead of "I need you to" - he might be justified in being annoyed.

Very well. Next time I will suggest to Hinjo that he try "I would be ever so indebted to you, Lord Vaarsuvius, if you would consent to..." Then we can play the Imperial March while V approaches to grant said request. /nod

[Ionizer]

Seconded. I think V needing to defeat the devil by himself still plays a large role in his motivations, but yes.

Besides, what now? The Thor!Catapult is one-shot only.
Unless Hinjo is going to spend precious time climbing Durkon and jumping off of him to land more blows, V's spells are still a far better source of steady damage than a non-flying medium-sized paladin is.

Granted, Durkon is now buffed up... How long does the Thor's Might spell last? I'm assuming it's based of Lesser Visage of the Deity, but on all three occasions when the spell was previously used, it seemed to last a couple of rounds, just enough to land a few hits.

Maybe Durkon will distract the devil while V carries Hinjo up to its head to land a critical or something... Here's hoping V goes along with that. T_T

Thor's Might is actually Righteous Might (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/righteousMight.htm). Most clerics will go out of their way to rename their spells after their deity. Take Kord's Strength over Bull's Strength, St Cuthbert's Crushing Hand instead of Bigby's, Boccob's Disjunction instead of Mordenkaiden's (or Mage's if using the SRD), or Pelor's Searing Light instead of well... Searing Light. It's all about the fluff, my friend.

[Kaytara]

Thor's Might is actually Righteous Might (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/righteousMight.htm). Most clerics will go out of their way to rename their spells after their deity.

I stand corrected.


V himself says that he has 18 intelligence back in issue 31.

True, but Vaarsuvius has gained about 6-7 levels since then. What would he have spent stat points on if not INT? Besides, he is likely to be wearing some kind of item that increases it. Therefore, a >20 assumption is not unreasonable.


Talking is a Free Action.
V's verboseness has shown to be an exception of that rule in the past. XD The incident with the dragon is the most obvious example. :D ("That's just two rounds!!!" "Actually, now only one. I was particularly verbose just there.")

[factotum]

Thor's Might is actually Righteous Might (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/righteousMight.htm).

I'm not convinced it is. Righteous Might causes the caster to double in size, while Durkon seems to increase by quite a bit more than that when he casts Thor's Might--so either it's a different spell, or an empowered version of the same spell granted specifically by Thor to his clerics.

[Lee]

Haha

Love Shojo :smallbiggrin:

[Ionizer]

I'm not convinced it is. Righteous Might causes the caster to double in size, while Durkon seems to increase by quite a bit more than that when he casts Thor's Might--so either it's a different spell, or an empowered version of the same spell granted specifically by Thor to his clerics.

Well, that's obviously Artistic License on the part of The Giant. What's funnier: a Dwarf growing just a bit taller than a human, or a Dwarf growing to immense proportions and pounding baddies?

[Kompera]

V's verboseness has shown to be an exception of that rule in the past. XD The incident with the dragon is the most obvious example. :D ("That's just two rounds!!!" "Actually, now only one. I was particularly verbose just there.")Not truly an exception in the case of 588 though, it's within the rules for Free Actions: "Speaking more than few sentences is generally beyond the limit of a free action." His soliloquy in 588 is actually only two sentences long if you only count panel 2 (the panel with the spell casting), 3 sentences if you count panels 1 and 2.

[AlexanderRM]

Besides, what now? The Thor!Catapult is one-shot only.

Yeah, I was also wondering about that...


Granted, Durkon is now buffed up... How long does the Thor's Might spell last? I'm assuming it's based of Lesser Visage of the Deity, but on all three occasions when the spell was previously used, it seemed to last a couple of rounds, just enough to land a few hits.

On that note, I wonder what Durkons' size is relative to the Devil now? What part is that that got attacked using the dwarf-a-pult? Whatever it is, it looks like Durkon is quite a bit smaller than it is...

[TehSheen]

Oh wow, I really thought the comic had Daigo there. I got really fooled! Ah, I never thought I would see Shojo in this one.

[AlexanderRM]

The Bonus from Smite Evil should at least bypass the damage reduction (it's supernatural damage which overcomes DR)
Did you even READ the strip? The attack already bypasses the damage reduction, due to being from a silver weapon. Even if the Devil has damage reduction that needs silver AND good, it's still no problem, because smite evil probably makes it count as a good attack... and if not, align weapon is, what, a first-level spell? Bless weapon? It's pretty obvious that both attacks got past the DR in any case.



No. There is a thread where it's discussed the possible special mount of O-Chul. Almost everything, from worms to Terrasque. I personally put my money on Giant Hedgehog.
On that note, why can't he use his mount to help himself in any way?
Note to self: Make sure to put multiple bags of holding on mount, containing anything that I might want if captured by the hobgoblin forces and stripped of all my equipment.

[hamishspence]

Most high level devils need good and silver damage to bypass DR, but yes, align weapon does the job.

Smite evil does not. (doesn't say Makes Weapon Good aligned)

There are no feats I know of that do that. Evil guys do get Vile feats that can make all strikes count as Evil, or Chaotic and Evil, or Lawful and Evil, depending on the feat (Champions of Ruin)

So, for Hinjo to overcome DR, he must have a holy weapon, or the Holy Sword spell activated (paladins get this, not align weapon)

[Danukian]

As an aside, in the HERO system if you use the optional hit location table, there is an optional rule to use with the optional rule, that any limb only has 1/3 the BODY (HP) of the creatures total, and if all is lost in that limb, it is severed off. They then bleed 1 BODY per Phase, or per Turn if they suceeded in a CON roll +2 dificulty.

Most good RPGs have a similar system for dealing with injuries (HERO, SNSF and GURPS especially), and many non-official D20 books offer various ideas - core D&D and Palladium are the worst for stuff like this - where an average 2+ level fighter can take a few whacks from a Great Sword to any part of his/her body without serious injury. I'd go on, but I think I'm already pretty far from the topic - this is more of a Geekery post...

[Danukian]

Smite evil does not. (doesn't say Makes Weapon Good aligned)



I have always had a problem with that - since the attack ONLY works on Evil creatures, is should be Good aligned, but as the rules are written, it is not:smallconfused:

[hamishspence]

A first level ability that can override Damage Reduction. Perhaps to the best idea, for balance purposes at least.

[Danukian]

So can a few Cantrips and Basic equipment :smallconfused:

[Laurentio II]

Given that it's still an average of 44 damage from those two spells if saved against and there's no evidence of damage resistance for lightning, this doesn't seem likely to be too little to avoid a "RAAAAARRRGGGHHH"
There are a lot of reason not to hear (read...) the devil scream. None conclusive, anyway, I'm the first to admit.

Vaarsavius is to far from the devil head for the scream to be heard;
Vaarsavius is aiming for the leg, that is far less sensible that the chest;
Electrical attack tend to shock much more that to inflict pain (personal experience);
the Devil was weakened by Vaarsavius' attacks, and so more susceptible to pain after;
the author simply wanted to give to the most beloved Paladin after O-Chul an crowning moment, and having the devil scream all the time would lesser his action.


But again, nothing is conclusive, as my personal experience in devil subjugation with magic and iron blades is quite disappointing in real life. I'll try to improve.

[hamishspence]

cantrips, maybe (d3 damage is not that worrying) But what basic equipment allows you to do damage like a paladin could (weapon, Str, maybe power attack) and overcome DR?

[Laurentio II]

cantrips, maybe (d3 damage is not that worrying) But what basic equipment allows you to do damage like a paladin could (weapon, Str, maybe power attack) and overcome DR?
He is saying that having all the right equipment always prevail on DR. Silver, Cold iron, wood, blessed weapon, torched oil, etc etc. The right stuff for the right monster.

[hamishspence]

Not that basic (cold iron isn't cheap, nor is silver, adamantine is definitely not cheap)

And overcoming alignment-based DR is usually at least a little trickier. Depending on your views, weapons that easily overcome DR of all alignment are really good.

[Danukian]

cantrips, maybe (d3 damage is not that worrying) But what basic equipment allows you to do damage like a paladin could (weapon, Str, maybe power attack) and overcome DR?



He is saying that having all the right equipment always prevail on DR. Silver, Cold iron, wood, blessed weapon, torched oil, etc etc. The right stuff for the right monster.

Yep - A Silvered Dagger will over come a DR/Silver for 10gp, a Torch will overcome Regeneration/Fire and deal Double Damage to any creature with the COLD subtype (as well as double as a Stake for a Vampire) for 1 CP - now, if you want to get into Special/Superior Items, Acid Flasks, Thunderstones, and Holywater combined are cheaper than a Falchion, so there is no reason a 1st level party coudn't have a few among the group.

[hamishspence]

Some creatures have Regeneration/fire, but not DR/Fire.

When it comes to aligned outsiders though, especially medium to high level ones, it nearly always requires some form of magic to overcome their DR when attacking them with melee weapons.

[Yoritomo Himeko]

the author simply wanted to give to the most beloved Paladin after O-Chul an crowning moment, and having the devil scream all the time would lesser his action.


Where was the Bandanaladin in this strip? I obviously missed him. :smalltongue:

[Danukian]

Not that basic (cold iron isn't cheap, nor is silver, adamantine is definitely not cheap)

Silver Dagger = 10gp
Silver Arrow = 1gp
Silver Great Sword = 250gp
Taking on Infernal Hordes: Priceless.

[hamishspence]

Yes, and getting stamped on by CR 5 creatures with DR10/good, like Narguzons, maybe...not so priceless.