Optimizing Embrace the Dark Chaos

[CASTLEMIKE]

An interesting way to Optimize Embracing the Dark Chaos: Multiclass after obtaining the benefits in one class. :smallsmile: to regain more feats. A race like an elf probably has a slight edge.


http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#...oficiencyLight


Armor Proficiency (Light) [General]
Benefit
When you wear a type of armor with which you are proficient, the armor check penalty for that armor applies only to Balance, Climb, Escape Artist, Hide, Jump, Move Silently, Sleight of Hand, and Tumble checks.

Normal
A character who is wearing armor with which she is not proficient applies its armor check penalty to attack rolls and to all skill checks that involve moving, including Ride.

Special
All characters except wizards, sorcerers, and monks automatically have Armor Proficiency (light) as a bonus feat. They need not select it.

Armor Proficiency (Medium) [General]
Prerequisite
Armor Proficiency (light).

Benefit
See Armor Proficiency (light).

Normal
See Armor Proficiency (light).

Special
Fighters, barbarians, paladins, clerics, druids, and bards automatically have Armor Proficiency (medium) as a bonus feat. They need not select it.


Armor Proficiency (Heavy) [General]
Prerequisites
Armor Proficiency (light), Armor Proficiency (medium).

Benefit
See Armor Proficiency (light).

Normal
See Armor Proficiency (light).

Special
Fighters, paladins, and clerics automatically have Armor Proficiency (heavy) as a bonus feat. They need not select it.

Shield Proficiency [General]
Benefit
You can use a shield and take only the standard penalties.

Normal
When you are using a shield with which you are not proficient, you take the shield’s armor check penalty on attack rolls and on all skill checks that involve moving, including Ride checks.

Special
Barbarians, bards, clerics, druids, fighters, paladins, and rangers automatically have Shield Proficiency as a bonus feat. They need not select it.

[Tokiko Mima]

It's a good idea, but everytime I try to use proficiencies other than the elven racial ones in a Dark Chaos Shuffle, I get shot down by someone telling me that it "clearly says it's a class feature, not a Feat" in the base class descriptions. Party Poopers! :smallfrown:

[CASTLEMIKE]

It's a good idea, but everytime I try to use proficiencies other than the elven racial ones in a Dark Chaos Shuffle, I get shot down by someone telling me that it "clearly says it's a class feature, not a Feat" in the base class descriptions. Party Poopers! :smallfrown:

I know which is why I did a little researching. The bolded text is from the D20 SRD Hypertext.

Things like Evasion are a Class Special of the Monk, Rogue and other classes with the exception of the Variant Classes it does not appear as a feat in the game.

The proficiency in All Martial Weapons can be considered a class special since it is the equivalent of multiple individual martial weapon feats in core.

Summon Familiar is a class special the closest feat I am aware of is Obtain Familiar or the Dragon extra familiar feat.

[Tsotha-lanti]

But the feats clearly say it's a bonus feat.

Either way, I wouldn't allow it for elven racial weapon proficiency bonus feats any more than I'd allow it for class-based proficiencies. It's obviously not the intention. (Although I have to admit that they blew it with defining class-based proficiencies.)

[Edea]

Wait, you'd allow Embrace/Shun the Dark Chaos -at all-? Amazing, I like that :D. Most DMs would probably look at those spells and say, 'yeah...**** that, and **** you for suggesting it; banning Fiendish Codex I from PC use.'

[CASTLEMIKE]

Could be fun for the PCs and the BBEGs. Nice for dipping purposes for duels and optimization builds that probably won't get to be played in all games.:smile:

[Ascension]

What's the flavor on Embrace/Shun anyway? It seems to me that something like this would drive you looney faster than staring Cthulhu in the face.

[Edea]

Well, it's 250 XP per Embrace or Shun, but I think most of us know how to get around that sort of thing, especially since you're already probably trafficking with demons to even gain knowledge of the spells in the first place.

[CASTLEMIKE]

What's the flavor on Embrace/Shun anyway? It seems to me that something like this would drive you looney faster than staring Cthulhu in the face.
Each feat adds a -2 to a specific skill check and become inherently Chaotic infused with raw chaos the creature somehow looks more fiendish.

Interesting spell and feat mechanically as most should be able to be reverse engineered for a Chaotic Good celestial heritage from a Celestial ancestor (or a CN Outsider (Embrace the Chaotic Grey of Limbo)).

Embrace the Chaotic Light Level 8 Cleric, Exalted, Sorcerer/Wizard spell............

[Frosty]

Wait, you'd allow Embrace/Shun the Dark Chaos -at all-? Amazing, I like that :D. Most DMs would probably look at those spells and say, 'yeah...**** that, and **** you for suggesting it; banning Fiendish Codex I from PC use.'

The Codex is perfectly fine. Those specific spells I ban. Just like how I ban Superior Invisibility and Incantatrix. There's just some things which makes the game too *easy*

[CASTLEMIKE]

The Codex is perfectly fine. Those specific spells I ban. Just like how I ban Superior Invisibility and Incantatrix. There's just some things which makes the game too *easy*

Basically it is just a variant of the EPH Psychic Reformation applicable to feats catalyzing a latent blood line although it can be brokered from demon kind if latent potential lacking.

[Chronos]

Personally, I'd allow the spells, just with a slight houserule: If you use one of them to change a bonus feat, you have to change it to something else that would also have been a valid choice for that bonus feat slot.

So, for instance, you can shuffle the bonus feat you get from a Loremaster secret with no problem, since that one can be used for any feat you want. If there's an Abyssal Heritor feat that's on the fighter list, then you can change a fighter bonus feat into that feat. But the elven racial proficiencies don't give you a choice, so the only thing you can trade the elvish Martial Weapon Proficiency: Rapier for is Martial Weapon Proficiency: Rapier.

[RagnaroksChosen]

newb question what is "the dark chaos"
and if it has a link can you post it?

[Edea]

newb question what is "the dark chaos"
and if it has a link can you post it?

Embrace the Dark Chaos and Shun the Dark Chaos are level 8 spells from the Fiendish Codex I (not SRD, so no linkie). The Embrace version basically turns one of your feats into an Abyssal Heritor feat, and the Shun version allows you to exchange any one of your Abyssal Heritor feats for another feat you qualify for, -which does not have to be the one you lost to the Embrace version of the spell-. Hence the term 'Dark Chaos Shuffle.'

[CASTLEMIKE]

Personally, I'd allow the spells, just with a slight houserule: If you use one of them to change a bonus feat, you have to change it to something else that would also have been a valid choice for that bonus feat slot.

The subject immediately gains one Abyssal heritor feat for which it qualifies, chosen by you at the time of casting. If the subject does not qualify for the designated feat, the spell fails. This Abyssal heritor feat replaces one feat of the subject's choice that it already possesses. The replaced feat need not have been an Abyssal heritor feat. If the lost feat was a prerequisite for other feats or access to those feats or prestige class abilities until it once again meets all the prerequisites. Oncve the subject has the Abyssal heritor feat, only a miracle, shun the dark chaos, or wish spell can reverse the change.

Only 13 Abyssal Heritor Feats in Hordes of the Abyss.

Think of the possibilities in a regular game for a class like the Wizard starting off as a F-1 or Facototum - 1 for Shun the Dark Chaos to change those 4 feats to Meta feats to improve spellcasting.

Probably hard to find an NPC to cast the spells in most games. but L15+ PC could cast the spell.

L13 Ur-Priest can cast the spell.

Gestalt. A dip into a class like Fighter F-1 or Factotum -1 could provide 4 feats to change from the armor and shield proficiencies. Depending on the next class level all 4 or most of those feats would be granted to a PC who no longer had them.

[Sinfire Titan]

How quaint. SOmeone else has rediscovered the DCFS loop.

And yet every time it is mentioned, no one mentions the Infinite Feat Loop that goes hand-in-hand with this until I show up.

Elder Evils+DCFS=Infinite Feats.

Devote yourself to an Elder Evil. Gain 5 feats for free. Embrace them into AH feats instead of Vile feats. Multiple castings of Chaotic spells cause you to shift alignments from Chaotic Evil to Chaotic Neutral.

Game looks to eat your Vile feats granted by Elder Evil devotion. Seeing none, nothing happens to your feats. Shun the Dark Chaos. Get the feats you want.

Redeclare your devotion to an Elder Evil. Start back at the beginning.

By RAW it works. Major freaking loophole, but it is as RAW-legal as Pun-Pun (and almost as broken).

[Frosty]

And the Eldar Evil that you've devoted to 50 or so times? It comes and eats you.

[Sinfire Titan]

And the Eldar Evil that you've devoted to 50 or so times? It comes and eats you.

No, that an Inevitable's job. The Elder Evil can do a damn thing (they are stuck after all...).

[CASTLEMIKE]

Elder Evils+DCFS=Infinite Feats.

Devote yourself to an Elder Evil. Gain 5 feats for free. Embrace them into AH feats instead of Vile feats. Multiple castings of Chaotic spells cause you to shift alignments from Chaotic Evil to Chaotic Neutral.

Game looks to eat your Vile feats granted by Elder Evil devotion. Seeing none, nothing happens to your feats. Shun the Dark Chaos. Get the feats you want.

Redeclare your devotion to an Elder Evil. Start back at the beginning.

By RAW it works. Major freaking loophole, but it is as RAW-legal as Pun-Pun (and almost as broken).

Good point regarding the Elder Evil devotion. I prefer a more quid pro quo game and shy away from that degree of opimization despite my signature.:smallwink: "Things" that involve a PC needing to translate player knowledge describing what he needs or desires from another planar entity before they grant them particularly when they involve chains like Pun Pun. Consider what the skill check for discovering the Pun Pun process should be in game.

It seems like we are all in agreement regarding the PC who redeclares a second time to an Elder Evil.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Good point regarding the Elder Evil devotion. I prefer a more quid pro quo game and shy away from that degree of opimization "Things" that involve a PC needing to translate player knowledge describing what he needs or desires from another planar entity before they grant them particularly when they involve chains like Pun Pun. Consider what the skill check for discovering the Pun Pun process should be in game. That's factored in. DC 25 Knowledge:Religion check for the free wishes, then probably another DC 25 or so(not having the Sarrukh's stats on me), to find out about Manipulate Form.

[CASTLEMIKE]

That's factored in. DC 25 Knowledge:Religion check for the free wishes, then probably another DC 25 or so(not having the Sarrukh's stats on me), to find out about Manipulate Form.

I disagree Pazuzu Lore skill checks are completely different than the skill checks to learn how to become Pun-Pun in game. Isn't Pun Pun more powerful than the Greatest Gods usually 60HD+ Outsiders?

[Sstoopidtallkid]

I disagree that is way to low a skill check. IMO it should involve quite a few different skill checks.

Isn't Pun Pun more powerful than the Greatest Gods usually 60HD+ Outsiders?Yes, but he gets that at level one. He uses a DC25 Know:Relig to figure out how to summon Pazuzu, then another Know check to figure out about Manipulate Form, and everything else is realizable from there.

[CASTLEMIKE]

Yes, but he gets that at level one. He uses a DC25 Know:Relig to figure out how to summon Pazuzu, then another Know check to figure out about Manipulate Form, and everything else is realizable from there.

Yes but that is Player knowledge versus PC knowledge regarding the Wishes from Pazuzu and Not the knowledge skill checks to discover how to become Pun-Pun in game. IMO playing Pun-Pun would only be fun to do it in a game to say you did it before retiring the PC since he can do anything you just won the game now it's time to start another game.

Paladin from wiki:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paladin_(Dungeons_%26_Dragons)

DC20 Knowledge Arcana or Religion
Pazuzu is the demon lord of the Lower Aerial Kingdoms, and is served by evil flying monsters and those who have been corrupted by his offers of aid.

DC25 Knowledge (Religion or Arcana)

Speaking Pazuzu's name three times in rapid succession allows the demon to contact the speaker. Often he offers the speaker aid.

Player knowledge that he often uses Wishes to aid Paladins and any LG Paladin who knows also knows he grants Wishes does it to corrupt the Paladin.

Sure have Fun Wish for a LG Candle of Invocation to put a Solar at your beck and call and get a Wish from him for a Holy Sword or a CG Candle of Invocation to get Three Wishes from a Noble Djinni. Something which probably amuses Pazuzu. Hopefully it will amuse your DM/GM A low level Paladin having a Solar in his service. It's a nice wild card with a DM/GM the first time it is used to advance the campaign plot in a pinch playing a Paladin in a pending TPK.

Frosty has a Nine Hells campaign starting up with a Paladin where things could easily go south. Demons and Devils are racial enemies so Pazuzu probably disposed to help the Paladin if called in a TPK situation.

[woodenbandman]

When something amusing like that happens, my response it "aww, how cute, that you're worshiping a core god."

No core gods in my campaigns.

[Tokiko Mima]

I've always wanted to post this! Thanks for the opportunity! :smallwink:

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