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Thanatos 51-50
2008-08-28, 03:14 AM
I was wondering about the legality of the following within fourth ediion rules.
Keep in mind, I'm aware that there are many MUCH better builds than this - such as using taking feats that do magely things, like give you more spells to cast from, and make your magic do more damage.

Step One: Roll amazing stats (Because we're MAD!)
Step Two: Be a Wizard anyway.
Step 2.5 (Optional, but only helps): Be Human, anyway.
Step Three: Master the Staff of Defense.

All good up to here, I know.

FEAT SELECTION!
Feat one: Leather Armor Proficency.
Feats two through whatever: More armor proficencies. Skip Hide, all the way through fullplate.
Apparantly, in 4e, no matter how much armor you're wearing, you can still cast your spells 100% effectively.
Purchase other feats at your whmsy, then. Preferably ones that let you either increase accuracy at range, area of effect, or what-have you.

POWER SELECTION!
The watchword here is RANGE! after range, go for area.

PLAY TACTICS:
Sit in the back, underneath your nice, comfortable Fullplate and make holes in the deck with your magickal artillery shells of doom.

Discuss?
Is this legal?
(I know it probably isn't smart)

ghost_warlock
2008-08-28, 03:24 AM
They're talking about doing this sort w/ a warlock over at WotC:

Dwarven Infernal Crusader
Yeah, I've talked about an armoured Dwarflock a couple of times above, so I'll present an idea for that here too. He focuses on Lots of Temporary hitpoints. Even early on, he's a Defender, rather than a striker. But as he becomes part Paladin, and takes the Justicar Paragon Path, it only accents his role. This is, unlike the previous couple, quite a strict build, but unfortunately, it has to be since getting a Warlock Pally combo is pretty MAD. Chances are you're gonna want a Pact Blade in one hand, and a stronger melee weapon in the other. It also works with a Half-Elf, and I've provided an alternate Stat-Line for them (they can also pick up Bolstering Strike from the Pally straight away).

Race: Dwarf
Best Pact: Infernal
Stats wanted: 14 STR, 8 DEX, 18 CON (+2 Racial), 12 INT, 13 WIS (+2 Racial), 14 CHA

Alternate (Half Elf Blood Champion)
Race: Half-Elf
Best Pact: Infernal
Stats wanted: 14 STR, 8 DEX, 18 CON (+2 Racial), 14 INT, 12 WIS, 13 CHA (+2 Racial)

Your aim in both cases is to take Chainmail Proficiency immediately, Soldier of the Faith at 2nd, and possibly Novice Power Swap at 4th

Heroic
Feats wanted: Chainmail Proficiency, Soldier of the Faith, Novice Power Swap, Improved Initiative, Astral Fire, Scale Proficiency (eventually)
Level 1 Powers: Vampiric Embrace, Flames of Phlegethos/Armour of Agyths
Health Slurping and Firepower to begin with. You might consider Armour of Agyths here too. Its about the only build I would possibly think about having it, since chances are it might be useful if you're often in melee.
Level 2 Utility: Ethereal Stride
Level 3 Power: Fiery Bolt or Otherwind Stride
Boom or zip? Your choice. If you're following this exactly, you'll only have this for 1 level anyhow.
Level 4 Power: Take Novice power swap, Swapping your level 3 for the Paladins level 3 Righteous Smite (More Temporary Hitpoints!) Make either your WIS or CHA (whichever was at 13) into a 14 this level, then buff CON.
Level 5 Power: Avernian Eruption
Get your firepower upgrade here.
Level 6 Utility: Fey Switch
Again, I wouldn't normally recommend Fey Switch, but here it could be critically useful, since you're probably okay with being in melee. Dark one's own luck is still okay too.
Level 7 Power: Infernal Moon Curse
Level 9 Power: Iron Spike of Dis
Level 10 Utility: Shielding Shades

Paragon
Feats wanted: Fleet-Footed, Dwarven Durability, Scale Specialization, Durable
Take the Justicar Paragon. You're already a fairly mighty tank by this point, eh? Only, you can also spit fire and poison at people.
Level 13 Power: Coldfire Vortex replaces Infernal Moon Curse or Vampiric Embrace
Level 15 Power: Thirsting Maw replaces Flames of Phlegethos
Level 16 Utility: Eye of the Warlock
Level 17 Power: Retrain your Novice Power Swap this level to get Hand of the Gods in place your old Righteous Smite
Level 19 Power: Minions of Malbolge
There you go. You're a veritable font of hitpoints!

Source (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=1061005)

alfredbester
2008-08-28, 04:20 AM
I'd want to be a platemail wearing wizard just for the roleplaying hilarity. It sounds like an extremely fun character!

edit: Looks like you could have chainmail at 1st, scale at 2nd, and plate at 4th. Hah!

Thanatos 51-50
2008-08-28, 04:43 AM
Sixth if you're not a human.
Silly pink-fleshed bipeds.

Dhavaer
2008-08-28, 04:46 AM
It works better for a warlock; wizards usually have such high Intelligence that heavy armour is usually counterproductive.

ghost_warlock
2008-08-28, 04:51 AM
It works better for a warlock; wizards usually have such high Intelligence that heavy armour is usually counterproductive.

That, and the fact that most wizard spells allow them to stand as far away as 20 squares from anything threatening and still be just as effective. This is what the wizard did when we playtested Kobold Hall, anyway... Not much need to wear heavy armor if you're too far away to really be attacked.

Cramped dungeon hallways can...cramp...the style, but in a hallway you're golden.

Yakk
2008-08-28, 08:48 AM
The Crusader -- I don't get it. Temporary HP does not a defender make.

Temporary HP is a reason not to attack a target. Defenders try to be good targets to attack (they try to be slightly better targets than the alternative).

This involves making it an increasingly worse option to attack others, then making it worse to attack yourself after.

It is the Striker who wants the raw power to "just make it a bad idea to attack me", with temporary HP, riposte strike, etc.

Tsotha-lanti
2008-08-28, 08:59 AM
So why, exactly, would a character whose main stat is Int want to use heavy armor, which denies him Int to AC?

Hide is the heaviest armor you'd want to wear. Hide + maximized Int = AC pretty much on par with a paladin going all the way with full plate.

Eorran
2008-08-28, 09:15 AM
You can do MUCH better, but it requires a willing DM.
Step 1: get Tenser's Floating Disk at lvl 1.
Step 2: find an armorer. Get him to build a metal frame the same diameter as your Tenser's disk, about 4' high.
Step 3: Cover said frame in metal plates. (Put a hinged top plate on. Make sure you leave small slots for ventilation.) Put small viewports in.
Step 5. Daily, cast TFD. Strap metal frame to disk. Sit down on disk. Ride into battle in your mini-tank.
:smallamused:

As you gain levels, your Arcana check increases, and so does the weight limit. You can fancify your tank however you want.

ssjKammak
2008-08-28, 09:16 AM
Whats the point of plate if your sitting safely at the back of combat, AC only applies to close combat attacks (and even then not all of them). Plus heavy armour slows you down and as a wizard if your engaged in close combat you want to be able to move away quickly.

Lastly as pointed out wearing the heavy armor negates your int bonus to your reflex, if you are sitting at the back your reflex is going to be your most important defence.

Seems like a waste of feats to me,

anyway
Just an aussies 2 cents
Cheers

Tengu_temp
2008-08-28, 09:26 AM
AC only applies to close combat attacks (and even then not all of them).

Um, no. Ever heard of archery?



Lastly as pointed out wearing the heavy armor negates your int bonus to your reflex, if you are sitting at the back your reflex is going to be your most important defence.


Um, no. Again. Heavy armor negates your int bonus to AC, not reflex. The reason why Wizards shouldn't wear anything heavier than hide armor is because for such an int-focused class, light armor gives better AC than heavy armor.

Coincidentally, it's also the reason why Swordmages will have the best AC when they finally come out.

Tsotha-lanti
2008-08-28, 09:31 AM
Whats the point of plate if your sitting safely at the back of combat, AC only applies to close combat attacks (and even then not all of them).

What?

AC is the basic defence against ranged attacks, too. You need it plenty (especially in 4E combat, which is mobile above all else - quick or shifty enemies will get past your tank at you), but that's not a problem - a level 1 wizard will have AC 14-15 with no armor at all, +2 if they blow a feat on leather armor. By level 20, that's gone up to 30-32 (feyweave armor, no feat expenditure) or 33-35 (darkhide armor).

By comparison, a level 20 paladin in warplate armor will have AC 35-37 depending on their shield.

This is with absolutely no optimization (other than maxing Int for the wizard, obviously) or even looking at feats and other options for the wizard to boost that AC.

And heavy armor doesn't remove your Int (or Dex) bonus to Reflex, only to AC. PHB page 212: "When you wear heavy armor, you don't add an ability score modifier to your AC."

Thanatos 51-50
2008-08-28, 09:20 PM
I did note that this wasn't smart, but it seemed like a potentially fun thing to do.

NecroRebel
2008-08-29, 01:42 AM
Hmm... How balanced would a feat that gave you int or dex to AC in heavy armor be? I'd guess paragon tier, myself, and maybe require the matching specialization feat, but it seems to me that it would make armored mages more viable.

I'd be worried that it would be too attractive to tactical warlords, though, since they can already get heavy armor easily and would gain an easy +2-4 to their AC from it. Maybe make the attribute requirement too high to be practical for most paragon-level warlord builds, like in the 17-19 range, but then again that's much higher than other paragon-tier feats too.

Edea
2008-08-29, 01:44 AM
Hmm... How balanced would a feat that gave you int or dex to AC in heavy armor be?

BWAHAHA, that would wreck the maths something FIERCE. +9 to AC in epic tier at all times? Yes, please.

Artanis
2008-08-29, 02:20 AM
Hmm... How balanced would a feat that gave you int or dex to AC in heavy armor be?
My gut feeling is that the answer to this question is "broken beyond belief".

Dhavaer
2008-08-29, 02:28 AM
My gut feeling is that the answer to this question is "broken beyond belief".

Aye. That is an enormous boost to armour class.

Tsotha-lanti
2008-08-29, 03:45 AM
Hmm... How balanced would a feat that gave you int or dex to AC in heavy armor be? I'd guess paragon tier, myself, and maybe require the matching specialization feat, but it seems to me that it would make armored mages more viable.

Armored mages are no less or more viable - it's just a big feat expenditure. A mage in plate armor has the same AC as a paladin in plate armor, pretty much. The thing is, the mage can already get that AC, or better, with hide armor.

That feat would be so powerful, though, that almost every character would pick it. Most feats grant no more than +1 AC bonus unconditionally.

If the feat is so good you'd be stupid to pass up on it, it's too good. This would be such a case.

Starbuck_II
2008-08-29, 07:01 AM
Coincidentally, it's also the reason why Swordmages will have the best AC when they finally come out.

I thought was because when one hand is free, they get +3 to AC? So no matter the Wizard and Swordages Int, I'd wager Swordsage wins.

Mando Knight
2008-08-29, 10:32 AM
I thought was because when one hand is free, they get +3 to AC? So no matter the Wizard and Swordages Int, I'd wager Swordsage wins.

It's partly that, and also that the Swordmage starts out with Leather proficiency, and is almost as Int SAD as the Wizard (or is so in the WotC preview of the class). Thus, a first level Swordmage could easily have greater AC than a Paladin... at less than half the cost.

Coincidentally, I see that class as the perfect one for RL me if I were suddenly transported into a fantasy realm based on 4e D&D...

Thanatos 51-50
2008-08-29, 10:37 AM
This is interesting. Is there a WIZARDS article on Swordmage I could peruse somewhere?

ghost_warlock
2008-08-29, 11:44 AM
This is interesting. Is there a WIZARDS article on Swordmage I could peruse somewhere?

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/4ex/20080826a

It's an excerpt for the Forgotten Realms Player's Guide (due out in September, I believe).


Coincidentally, I see that class as the perfect one for RL me if I were suddenly transported into a fantasy realm based on 4e D&D...

Oh, I'd star-pact myself the second I got there...if I thought I had the stats to pull it off! :smallfrown:

Mando Knight
2008-08-29, 12:26 PM
Oh, I'd star-pact myself the second I got there...if I thought I had the stats to pull it off! :smallfrown:

I'd look into Paladin (lured in by the "Knight in Shining Armor" bit as well as the divine power source...), then realize I don't have the Strength or Charisma to be effective, and study arcane arts to become a Swordmage, since my Intelligence is my best attribute.

Oracle_Hunter
2008-08-29, 12:28 PM
Oh, I'd star-pact myself the second I got there...if I thought I had the stats to pull it off! :smallfrown:

Star Pact? I'd rather my soul not be devoured by Cthulhu, thank you very much :smalltongue:

I'd go Wizard in a heartbeat. Having Cantrips would be the best thing ever, in my book, and I probably have the INT to carry that off.

Um... I guess I'd have to specialize in... Staff? I don't have much faith in my DEX or WIS to be honest :smallbiggrin:

Re: OP
You can go Full Plate Wizard, but you'll need a 15 STR and 15 CON and have to take leather, hide, chain, scale, and then plate. Infernal Warlocks at least have the CON to start with. Plus, they don't have to take the Leather feat.

Another nice feature of the Infernals is the Temp HP. It acts as a little extra armor and, with Improved Dark One's Favor, you'll be getting LV + 3 HP every time you kill someone. If you kill people fast enough that those HP are redundant, then more power to you. Plus, with you being so close to the action, you get Prime Shot nearly every turn.

For extra fun, go Human (13 STR, 18 CON) to take Improved Dark One's curse & Hide. 2nd level gets you Chainmail, 4th gives you Light Shield (and +1 STR), 6th gives you Scalemail, 8th gives you Heavy Shield (and +1 STR) and 10th gives you Plate. At 11th you get Specialization (Plate) and your AC becomes 10 (base) + 11 (armor) + 5 (1/2 level) = 26, without magic. :smallbiggrin:

ghost_warlock
2008-08-29, 12:43 PM
Star Pact? I'd rather my soul not be devoured by Cthulhu, thank you very much :smalltongue:

Well, you see, it never really specifies exactly what the pact entails so far as what the character is giving up - it may not be a soul sacrifice at all but may just be to make sure I convert some cultists. For that matter, the way Far Realm creatures think, he may just want me to bring him a Big Mac and a Frappuccino; for all we know that may be the going rate on star pact powers! :smalltongue:

Otherwise, if something's going to devour my soul, I can't think of something I'd rather have devour it than Cthulhu. Except maybe Lovecraft himself, but I don't really think that was his M.O.

Furthermore, the only 4e deity I'd ever consider devoting myself to is the Raven Queen...and I'm not entirely sure I'd get all that much better of a deal from her anyway!


For extra fun, go Human (13 STR, 18 CON) to take Improved Dark One's curse & Hide. 2nd level gets you Chainmail, 4th gives you Light Shield (and +1 STR), 6th gives you Scalemail, 8th gives you Heavy Shield (and +1 STR) and 10th gives you Plate. At 11th you get Specialization (Plate) and your AC becomes 10 (base) + 11 (armor) + 5 (1/2 level) = 26, without magic.
Then, so long as you stay fairly mobile, you'll be getting another +2 from concealment courtesy of Shadow Walk - putting you at 28; not too shabby!

Oracle_Hunter
2008-08-29, 12:49 PM
Furthermore, the only 4e deity I'd ever consider devoting myself to is the Raven Queen...and I'm not entirely sure I'd get all that much better of a deal from her anyway!

I'd hold out for St. Cuthbert. I mean, who doesn't like getting in a little smiting, now and again. But like I said, I'm just not destined for the priesthood - not with this WIS :smalltongue:

Thanatos 51-50
2008-08-29, 12:53 PM
Furthermore, the only 4e deity I'd ever consider devoting myself to is the Raven Queen...and I'm not entirely sure I'd get all that much better of a deal from her anyway!

Shes a Death Goddess, not Evil! Geez! I'd definatly take up Paladan and worship her!
I'd even take the Raven Queen's Blessing feat!
Booyah!

For extra fun, I'll see if I can't be a dragonborn or half-elf...

Oracle_Hunter
2008-08-29, 01:01 PM
For extra fun, I'll see if I can't be a dragonborn or half-elf...

Screw that! If I get to pick a race, it's Eladrin all the way. Not only is it synergistic, but I get Teleportation pretty much on demand. How can you pick being big and scaly over that?

ghost_warlock
2008-08-29, 01:45 PM
Shes a Death Goddess, not Evil! Geez! I'd definatly take up Paladan and worship her!
I'd even take the Raven Queen's Blessing feat!
Booyah!

For extra fun, I'll see if I can't be a dragonborn or half-elf...

Strangely enough, the secondary character I'm playing alongside my main warlock in the KotS game tonight is a paladin of R.Q...tiefling, though. (Only 3 players...counting the DM!)

Oh, and she may not be evil, per se, but she's certainly not nice, either!

Since afterlives, other than what's described in the Epic Destinies, aren't really well described in 4e, for all we know the Raven Queen simply devours her devotees' souls after they pass on. It would prevent them from forming as ghosts or other sentient undead (since she hates undead, I could totally see this).

She's unaligned, which means that she can do some specific things we'd consider evil but she simply hasn't 'picked a side' so far as good/evil, doesn't care about the alignment of those who worship her, and her struggle against more definite evil, such as the Cult of Orcus, sort of balances out the evil things she does do.


Screw that! If I get to pick a race, it's Eladrin all the way. Not only is it synergistic, but I get Teleportation pretty much on demand. How can you pick being big and scaly over that?

An eladrin paladin? :smallconfused: Sure, you could do it, but it's not particularly optimal.

Thanatos 51-50
2008-08-29, 01:52 PM
Screw that! If I get to pick a race, it's Eladrin all the way. Not only is it synergistic, but I get Teleportation pretty much on demand. How can you pick being big and scaly over that?

Cold Breath Weapon.

Oracle_Hunter
2008-08-29, 01:58 PM
Cold Breath Weapon.

Cold breath weapon? At least Acid lets you hawk a loogie o' doom when you need it, and fire is... well, fire. Why cold?

Also: I suppose an Eladrin Paladin is not very synergistic, but it could still be neat. You'll be awesome with a Heavy Blade and nothing says "I'll save you!" like teleporting in front of the innocent you're going to save.

Eladrin Wizard though - how can you say no? :smallbiggrin:

ghost_warlock
2008-08-29, 02:03 PM
Cold breath weapon? At least Acid lets you hawk a loogie o' doom when you need it, and fire is... well, fire. Why cold?

Personally, I'd be so much happier if I could be a dragonborn with a Radiant breath weapon! Pew pew pew! :smalltongue:


Also: I suppose an Eladrin Paladin is not very synergistic, but it could still be neat. You'll be awesome with a Heavy Blade and nothing says "I'll save you!" like teleporting in front of the innocent you're going to save.

Eladrin Wizard though - how can you say no? :smallbiggrin:

Well, 1) human bonus at-will is nice, 2) homebrewing a +2 Int, +2 Wis race! :smallbiggrin:

Oracle_Hunter
2008-08-29, 02:13 PM
Well, 1) human bonus at-will is nice, 2) homebrewing a +2 Int, +2 Wis race! :smallbiggrin:

Gah, keep that FR cheese off me! They already made a STR/INT race which is bad enough.

And like I said - I'm taking Wizard just for the Cantrips. I can live without Cloud of Daggers, thank you very much :smallbiggrin:

So, while we're derailing this thread, have you made your first level power selections?

ghost_warlock
2008-08-29, 02:24 PM
So, while we're derailing this thread, have you made your first level power selections?

Well, for my main character I didn't so much select my powers as be told "you're a star-pact warlock, you get dire radiance and eldritch blast, fin."

For the non-artillery mage I built but won't be playing (human), I actually went with Ice ray of frost, Fire scorching burst, and Bolt thunderwave. The character is named Eckhart Frost and is based off a certain black mage wizard of mine from Final Fantasy Tactics... :smallbiggrin:

Oracle_Hunter
2008-08-29, 02:29 PM
Well, for my main character I didn't so much select my powers as be told "you're a star-pact warlock, you get dire radiance and eldritch blast, fin."

For the non-artillery mage I built but won't be playing (human), I actually went with Ice ray of frost, Fire scorching burst, and Bolt thunderwave. The character is named Eckhart Frost and is based off a certain black mage wizard of mine from Final Fantasy Tactics... :smallbiggrin:

Psh, no I meant for the "what if I were pulled into a 4e world" powers :smalltongue:

Jeez, stop being on topic all the time! :smallbiggrin:

ghost_warlock
2008-08-29, 02:50 PM
Psh, no I meant for the "what if I were pulled into a 4e world" powers :smalltongue:

Jeez, stop being on topic all the time! :smallbiggrin:

Oh. :smalleek:

Well, then, I'd (once again) have to go with dire radiance and eldritch blast...probably hellish rebuke, too, if I don't spontaneously transform into a half-elf or something. :smallfrown: My stats are probably closest to S9, Co16, D12, I14, W14, Ch10 under a 4e point buy. :smallsigh:

Oracle_Hunter
2008-08-29, 02:56 PM
Oh. :smalleek:

Well, then, I'd (once again) have to go with dire radiance and eldritch blast...probably hellish rebuke, too, if I don't spontaneously transform into a half-elf or something. :smallfrown: My stats are probably closest to S9, Co16, D12, I14, W14, Ch10 under a 4e point buy. :smallsigh:

Point buy? Nah, I expect to go in with whatever "stats" I have now, but I'll be able to pick class (and maybe race, if the DM is kindly :smalltongue:)

If I could point buy, I'd totally take Fighter or Warlord. Who doesn't want to kick ass and take names?

Hmm... Eladrin Tactical Warlord would be pretty sweet. Or, better yet, Eladrin Wizard-Warlord (my "MageLord" build :smallbiggrin:). I mean, Elves are just Better (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/OurElvesAreBetter), right?