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Epinephrine
2008-08-28, 10:37 AM
My druid is investing in Profession - Herbalist, Craft - Poisonmaking, Heal, Knowledge Nature, and Survival (as well as some othe craft skills, but these are germane to the issue at hand).

I pictured him hunting for herbs and such during the days, taking time after setting up camp to look for signs that rare plants/fungi grew in the area, and building a collection to help him treat diseases, poisonings, injuries, and to brew his own poisons and remedies. Of course, the rules are a) a bit vague about such things, and b) are hideously underpowered for crafting.

For the helping cure things, I can get a +2 bonus treating poisonings and such (synergy), and a +2 circumstance bonus if I happen to have the right herbs around for diseases etc, a pretty minor benefit considering the huge number of ranks I'm investing in profession and craft skills. Better than nothing, I suppose.

W.r.t. crafting, sure, one can craft things, at a rate of DC*skill check in silver per week. That's fine for him to repair arrows by the campfire, or if needed throw some bows together to hunt with if our gear is lost. A few weeks of work and one can make a masterwork item that one can use practically forever, which can even be enchanted (at the much more reasonable 1,000gp per day rate).

Poisons however, are frustrating - spending a month to create a masterwork weapon (DC 20, craft of +20, and take 10 to get 30, increase DC by 10 to speed making it - that's 90gp worth per week, or 360gp in 4 weeks - enough for most masterwork weapons) is reasonable, as you might see taking downtime that long at some point in your career, to get a decent weapon to use, enchant, and generally keep with you. That same time could produce 2 doses of something like medium spider venom (DC14, 1d4 Str/1d4 Str) or a single dose of a slightly better poison, say a DC 16, 1d6 Con/1d6 Con poison or something. Given that this is something that gets used once, and very well may not work, it's a rather time consuming and expensive exercise. It also costs 1/3rd the base price in materials, which can seem a bit odd when it's a natural venom/plant extract and one has insane Knowledge Nature and Survival.

Even harvesting posions from creatures seems gimped. If attacked by a large scorpion (for example), one can try to harvest some venom. Surely it has a good quantity of venom (it can, after all, sting multiple times in an encounter), yet a successful roll to extract poisons gives 1gp*the skill check; even with a +20 Survival and taking 20, this is only 40gp of venom, which works out to 1/5th of a dose. The poisonmaker lucky enough to slay a Purple Worm can get his hands on some nasty venom, but unfortunately even with maxed investment in survival, synergy bonuses and such is unlikely to get more than 50gp worth of poison, or 1/14th of a dose. How on earth can one buy this venom for 700gp when a character with a +30 Survival check would need to slay 14 Purple Worms to get enough venom to make a single dose? And that's not even a pricy poison - I pity the poor poisonmaker with only a +20 survival check, needing to kill 75 Wyverns to make a dose of Wyvern poison.

How would you address these issues if a player asked to be able to derive toxins/antidotes from slain foes, plants he finds, and was willing to spend the skill points to get maxed skills involved? Heck, I'm a druid and I'm willing to burn a 5th level spell to do so, communing with nature to ask about rare plants. The archivist can sit down and make 1,000gp worth of scrolls in a sitting, I could produce 1,000gp worth of Poison potion in a day if I instead took a potion brewing feat, saving myself tons of skill points and getting to make a ton more useful items as well - but that's a cop out - he's not a potion maker, and he's not interested in magical poisons but natural ones.

shadow_archmagi
2008-08-28, 10:44 AM
Wait wait wait you managed to find STATS FOR MAKING POISONS!?

Holy crap! I never even got that far! Where did you find these rules!

Eldritch_Ent
2008-08-28, 10:45 AM
I think there's an entire book on poisons called "Poisoncraft" or the like. very nice book. Some nice save-or-dies for wizards at least.

RagnaroksChosen
2008-08-28, 10:46 AM
1 you would need to modify the posions in the BOVD or CAdv to fit what ever your taking this from. as for the +2's ya synergy bonuses are meh..


The thing you got to remember about crafts is that the higher the DC the faster you make it. Also the Higher you ranks that fast you make it... and also theres a rule out there that if you add 10 to the dc you can make it faster.
I have a kobald trapsmith who has i think at 5-6th level (don't have char sheet with me) has like + 20 or some thing to it... eather way if i roll high enough i can pup out a simple trap in almost a day now.

RagnaroksChosen
2008-08-28, 10:47 AM
I think there's an entire book on poisons called "Poisoncraft" or the like. very nice book. Some nice save-or-dies for wizards at least.

complete adventurer sir... and or BOVD even though its 3.0

Destro_Yersul
2008-08-28, 10:47 AM
There are some in the Arms and Equipment guide, as well as a paragraph in the DMG, if I remember correctly.

Dr Bwaa
2008-08-28, 10:50 AM
screw the poisonmaking rules. I found them once, came to the same conclusions you've just outlined, and threw them away and have never looked back. I brew poisons at 1000gp/week, and if you find something with enough poison left in it for three doses, then by golly you can harvest (with good knowledge and survival) at least two of them. These are just my ad hoc rulings, but seriously--fourteen purple worms?

Hunter Noventa
2008-08-28, 10:59 AM
There are some additional poisons and poison rules in Complete Scoundrel if i recall.

But at the same time...poisons are quite possibly less effective than a Samurai, as far as PCs are concerned.

RagnaroksChosen
2008-08-28, 11:03 AM
There are some additional poisons and poison rules in Complete Scoundrel if i recall.

But at the same time...poisons are quite possibly less effective than a Samurai, as far as PCs are concerned.

how so... alot of them arn't to expensive and there just like one use magic items that ususaly do some sort of ability dmg

Hzurr
2008-08-28, 11:09 AM
Hmm... I definately think there should be some mechanic for getting poison off of a slain creature. What about this (off the top of my head) You need to make a craft:poisonmaking check on a creature with a poison, and beat a DC = 20 + CR level. For every 5 points you beat the DC by, you get an additional dose of the poison (max of half your level).

Just my 2cp.

On a side note, I did have a PC in a game who was an alchemist/poison master, and while we had to homebrew (hehe...brew) a lot of rules, he ended up being very effective (1 grease spell + 1 floor with several different kinds of contact poison on it = 3 paralyzed enemies in the first round of combat)

Hal
2008-08-28, 11:29 AM
how so... alot of them arn't to expensive and there just like one use magic items that ususaly do some sort of ability dmg

Because they are incredibly ineffective. Most have a very low save DC for their cost. By the time you can afford it, it's too easy for a foe to make the save. Then it's a consummable, so you don't want to blow 5000gp on a one-use poison when that could buy a sweet weapon or armor piece. And lastly, yes, the stronger poisons are really nice (high DC, high damage), but they run 10k gp or more. Unless you have a GM who's willing to hand them out like candy, you're wasting money if you invest in them.

Leon
2008-08-28, 11:33 AM
Modify the rules to a more sane and streamlined set

Destro_Yersul
2008-08-28, 11:56 AM
or include the ability to, you know, make the DC's reasonable.

Poisons are nifty, but too expensive to be worth it. Knock the price down and the DC's up and they'd be a choice that's actually worthwhile. That or allow people with access to the materials to craft them for free. Paying for the materials to make black lotus extract makes no sense when one is standing in a field of black lotus.

Telonius
2008-08-28, 12:16 PM
My druid is investing in Profession - Herbalist, Craft - Poisonmaking, Heal, Knowledge Nature, and Survival (as well as some othe craft skills, but these are germane to the issue at hand).

I pictured him hunting for herbs and such during the days, taking time after setting up camp to look for signs that rare plants/fungi grew in the area, and building a collection to help him treat diseases, poisonings, injuries, and to brew his own poisons and remedies. Of course, the rules are a) a bit vague about such things, and b) are hideously underpowered for crafting.

For the helping cure things, I can get a +2 bonus treating poisonings and such (synergy), and a +2 circumstance bonus if I happen to have the right herbs around for diseases etc, a pretty minor benefit considering the huge number of ranks I'm investing in profession and craft skills. Better than nothing, I suppose.

W.r.t. crafting, sure, one can craft things, at a rate of DC*skill check in silver per week. That's fine for him to repair arrows by the campfire, or if needed throw some bows together to hunt with if our gear is lost. A few weeks of work and one can make a masterwork item that one can use practically forever, which can even be enchanted (at the much more reasonable 1,000gp per day rate).

Poisons however, are frustrating - spending a month to create a masterwork weapon (DC 20, craft of +20, and take 10 to get 30, increase DC by 10 to speed making it - that's 90gp worth per week, or 360gp in 4 weeks - enough for most masterwork weapons) is reasonable, as you might see taking downtime that long at some point in your career, to get a decent weapon to use, enchant, and generally keep with you. That same time could produce 2 doses of something like medium spider venom (DC14, 1d4 Str/1d4 Str) or a single dose of a slightly better poison, say a DC 16, 1d6 Con/1d6 Con poison or something. Given that this is something that gets used once, and very well may not work, it's a rather time consuming and expensive exercise. It also costs 1/3rd the base price in materials, which can seem a bit odd when it's a natural venom/plant extract and one has insane Knowledge Nature and Survival.

Even harvesting posions from creatures seems gimped. If attacked by a large scorpion (for example), one can try to harvest some venom. Surely it has a good quantity of venom (it can, after all, sting multiple times in an encounter), yet a successful roll to extract poisons gives 1gp*the skill check; even with a +20 Survival and taking 20, this is only 40gp of venom, which works out to 1/5th of a dose. The poisonmaker lucky enough to slay a Purple Worm can get his hands on some nasty venom, but unfortunately even with maxed investment in survival, synergy bonuses and such is unlikely to get more than 50gp worth of poison, or 1/14th of a dose. How on earth can one buy this venom for 700gp when a character with a +30 Survival check would need to slay 14 Purple Worms to get enough venom to make a single dose? And that's not even a pricy poison - I pity the poor poisonmaker with only a +20 survival check, needing to kill 75 Wyverns to make a dose of Wyvern poison.

How would you address these issues if a player asked to be able to derive toxins/antidotes from slain foes, plants he finds, and was willing to spend the skill points to get maxed skills involved? Heck, I'm a druid and I'm willing to burn a 5th level spell to do so, communing with nature to ask about rare plants. The archivist can sit down and make 1,000gp worth of scrolls in a sitting, I could produce 1,000gp worth of Poison potion in a day if I instead took a potion brewing feat, saving myself tons of skill points and getting to make a ton more useful items as well - but that's a cop out - he's not a potion maker, and he's not interested in magical poisons but natural ones.

This has never come up in any campaign I've run. But if the player really wanted to play it, here's how I'd do it. First, the character can get 1gp*the monster's HD*the skill check worth of poison. Crafting a poison takes the normal amount of time. But add a couple of homebrew feats.

Brew Poison
Prerequisites: Craft (Poison) 5 ranks.
Benefit: You may produce poisons at an increased rate. Brewing a poison takes one day for each 1,000 gp in the cost of the poison. The character must provide the raw materials for the poison, as well as 1/25 of the cost in XP.
Normal: You can craft poisons at the rate of 10 silver * Craft check per week. No XP is expended.

Expert Poisoner
Prerequisites: Brew Poison feat, Craft (Poison) 8 ranks
Benefits: The poisons you create using the Brew Poison feats become more potent. Upon making a poison using the Brew Poison feat, you can increase the DC of your poison by making a Craft (Poison) check.
Craft Check DC
9-15 +0
16-20 +1
21-25 +2
26-30 +4
31-35 +8
etc
You cannot take 10 or 20 on this craft check. The check does not apply to poisons created using the normal crafting rules.

Poison Harvester
Prerequisites: Survival 8 ranks
Benefit: You are an expert at retrieving poison from defeated creatures. You can now harvest 10gp*the creature's HD*survival check worth of poison from a creature with the Poison ability.
Normal: You can harvest 1gp*the creature's HD*survival check.

Supreme Poisoner
Prerequisites: Brew Poison, Expert Poisoner, Poison Harvester, Craft (Poison) 15 ranks
Benefit: It no longer costs XP to create a poison using the Brew Poison feat.

EDIT: And off I go to the homebrew section with these. :smallcool:

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2008-08-28, 12:32 PM
From what I remember, most Druids with Craft: Poisonmaking would simply cast Summon Nature's Ally and milk whatever poison they needed from the critter before it vanishes. If a summoned creature injects poison into an opponent, they'll still take secondary damage even if the summon has ended, therefore any poison extracted will remain after it has returned from whence it came. Another option is to Wild Shape into a creature and deposit your own poison into a container before switching back and using the craft skill. That trick can even be safely used before the druid gains poison immunity since all creatures are automatically immune to any poisons secreted from their own body. So forget about going out and finding herbs, or going out and tracking down a monster, your class features give you all the resources you'll need to make any useful poisons on the list. I'd strongly suggest getting the higher-end poisons from the BoVD list allowed too, since none of the DMG poisons are even a threat to mid- to high-level characters and monsters.

Person_Man
2008-08-28, 12:51 PM
Various supplements have various (sometimes contradictory) rules on this. My group has established a very simple rule - your Take 10 Craft (Poisonmaking) check must be equal to the Save DC of what you want to make. You can then make that poison for 50% of listed cost. The amount of time is handled at DM discretion, but its assumed that you can make simple/cheap poisons in a few hours, and that complex poisons might take a day or two of solid work. (This makes the Skill useful - if you had to wait weeks, it would only be used between campaigns). If you kill an enemy that has a poisonous attack, you can make a Knowledge (whatever Skill is appropriate) or Craft (Poisonmaking) check, and the better your check is the more doses of poison you can extract.

Simple. Functional. Balanced.

Treguard
2008-08-28, 01:10 PM
What annoys me about poisons is that so few classes get the poison use ability. Only blackguards and assassins from core can use them without accidentally poisoning themselves. I mean, you'd think an alchemist dabbling as a poison maker could get this as a feat but nope, it's a class ability. :smallsigh:

Lemur
2008-08-28, 01:35 PM
What book are you getting poisonmaking rules from? The books I've seen (CA, BoVD, even Song and Silence, if memory serves) don't quite do it the way you describe in the first post.

Key differences include that progress on poison crafting is done in GP instead of SP (that is, your check result times the DC equals the amount poison in gold pieces instead of silver pieces like other crafts), and that raw material costs are 1/6 the base price if you have the key ingredient readily available (i.e. you've already harvested the plant or organ in question), or 3/4 the base price if you don't have the main component on hand.

nhbdy
2008-08-28, 01:43 PM
This has never come up in any campaign I've run. But if the player really wanted to play it, here's how I'd do it. First, the character can get 1gp*the monster's HD*the skill check worth of poison. Crafting a poison takes the normal amount of time. But add a couple of homebrew feats.

Brew Poison
Prerequisites: Craft (Poison) 5 ranks.
Benefit: You may produce poisons at an increased rate. Brewing a poison takes one day for each 1,000 gp in the cost of the poison. The character must provide the raw materials for the poison, as well as 1/25 of the cost in XP.
Normal: You can craft poisons at the rate of 10 silver * Craft check per week. No XP is expended.

Expert Poisoner
Prerequisites: Brew Poison feat, Craft (Poison) 8 ranks
Benefits: The poisons you create using the Brew Poison feats become more potent. Upon making a poison using the Brew Poison feat, you can increase the DC of your poison by making a Craft (Poison) check.
Craft Check DC
9-15 +0
16-20 +1
21-25 +2
26-30 +4
31-35 +8
etc
You cannot take 10 or 20 on this craft check. The check does not apply to poisons created using the normal crafting rules.

Poison Harvester
Prerequisites: Survival 8 ranks
Benefit: You are an expert at retrieving poison from defeated creatures. You can now harvest 10gp*the creature's HD*survival check worth of poison from a creature with the Poison ability.
Normal: You can harvest 1gp*the creature's HD*survival check.

Supreme Poisoner
Prerequisites: Brew Poison, Expert Poisoner, Poison Harvester, Craft (Poison) 15 ranks
Benefit: It no longer costs XP to create a poison using the Brew Poison feat.

EDIT: And off I go to the homebrew section with these. :smallcool:

Bravo! some of the best homebrewing i've seen in a long time!

Epinephrine
2008-08-28, 01:46 PM
Telonius - the Brew Poison feat is interesting. I might even consider that if I could get the materials cheaply via foraging etc; the XP makes it have an actual effect on the creator. The issue of poison cost is still a problem, I think many poisons are overpriced.

Biffoniacus_Furiou - I am a non-wildshaping druid. I could certainly charm animals though to milk them, and could commune with nature to find such animals, or to search effectively for deadly plant ingredients. Summoned animals is iffy - I think we'd stick with it not working for that, or it'd be far too easy to simply summon things and harvest parts. However, I can get some pretty nasty vermin venoms most likely via the Giant Vermin spell. Of course, the higer DC poisons are a ways off, but it'd be a decent source of venoms. The DM rightfully is concerned with the creation of free goods that can result from summoning/charming etc, and it's not fair to others if I can essentially apply poison all the time for free (even if it's rational).

Lemur - I have the Complete Adventurer, and a crystalkeep reference to Dragon Magazine #349, which detailed harvesting and so on. I don't have the dragon magazine itself, but the skills reference refers to it.

Person Man - I like the GM discretion, and it makes sense that poisonmaking should be pretty quick, I can't see it taking a month to get venom out of a snake, or to crush up some seeds in alcohol. One issue we've had is the huge range in prices for venoms, you can find venoms at the same price with very different effects, and venoms with the same effects and wildly different prices. It's hard to come up with a more standardised list - it really should follow some sort of pattern.

e.g. 300 gp Con damage toxins
Weaver rat venom Inj 11 1d3 Con 1d3 Con 300gp
Mangonnel saliva Con/Inj 13 1d4 Con Paralysis 300gp
Razor thorn poison Inj 13 1d3 Con 2d3 Con 300gp
Giant bee poison Inj 13 1d6 Con 1d6 Con 300gp
Stone fish poison Inj 15 1d8 Con 1d4 Con 300gp
Botulin poison Ing 16 1d6 Con 1d6 Con 300gp
Dark reaver powder Ing 18 2d6 Con 1d6 Con/Str 300gp
Golden embrace Con 22 1 Con 1 Con 300gp

Clearly I'd be better off making Stone fish venom rather than Weaver rat venom.

I tried going over the list of toxins I could collect from various sources, and it simply doesn't fit any pattern very nicely. There's a general trend of being about 100gp per DC over 10, once you get into the higher DC poisons, but it isnm't stable at all, and the type of effect (ability damage, other) and quantity of damage don't have any real relationship to the costs.

Here's my compiled list (was tab delimited, but that gets killed by posting it) if anyone wants to look for patterns.


Arsenic Ing 13 1 Con 1d8 Con 120
Bagskin poison Inh 15 1 Cha* 1d6 Cha* 1500
Blue whinnis Inj 14 1 Con KO 120
Bone moss acid Con/Inh 13 1 Con/2d6hp 1d4 Con/2d6hp 350
Burnt othur fumes Inh 18 1 Con* 3d6 Con 2,100
Centipede (Tiny) Inj 10 1 Dex 1 Dex 100
Demon’s blood Inj 22 1 Level* 1 Level* 4250
Demon’s blood Ing 23 1 Level* 1 Level* 5000
Golden embrace Con 22 1 Con 1 Con 300
Greenblood oil Inj 13 1 Con 1d2 Con 100
Hydra snake (type II) Inj 21 1 Con* 2d6/1* Con/Cha 2,100
Jikininki venom Inj 15 1 Con 1d6 Con 500
Lockling poison Inj 18 1 Str* 2d6 Str 800
Malyss root paste Con 16 1 Dex 2d4 Dex 500
Sandmasker poison Inj 16 1 Con/round None 600
Scorpion (Tiny) Inj 12 1 Con 1 Con 100
Shadow essence Inj 17 1 Str* 2d6 Str 700
Striped toadstool Ing 11 1 Wis 2d6/1d4 Wis/Int 180
Ungol dust Inh 15 1 Charisma 1/1d6 Cha*/Cha 1,000
Whipstag poison Con 13 1 hp Paralysis 300
Berserker wasp poison Inj 17 2 Dex None 700
Demon (leonine) poison Inj 17 2 Str/Dex/Con 2 Str/Dex/Con 700
Mere-lurker poison Inj 18 2 Dex 2 Dex 800
Orkfell toxin Inj 20 -1 abilities/rd. None 100
Bushlurker pollen Inh 13 -1 penalty None 50
Poison ivy Con 11 -1 to rolls 1 Dex 0.5
Ragweed pollen Inh 13 -1 to rolls 1 Dex 0.5
Poison dart frog Inj 20 1d10 Dex 2d10 Dex 3000
Scorpion (Colossal) Inj 33 1d10 Con 1d10 Con 3,600
Sinner’s scythe Ing 15 1d10 Cha 1d10 Cha* 1,800
Curare poison Inj 17 1d12 Dex 1d12 Dex 1500
Hemlock Ing 11 1d12 Con 1d4 Con 250
Savant hydra venom Inj 15 1d12 hp 1d12 hp 500
Alcohol (moderate) Ing 11 1d2 Dex 1 Dex 10
Caustic alkali Con 11 1d2 hp 1d2 Dex 15
Centipede (Small) Inj 10 1d2 Dex 1d2 Dex 200
Scorpion (Small) Inj 12 1d2 Con 1d2 Con 200
Spider (Tiny) Inj 10 1d2 Str 1d2 Str 100
Vermin (Tiny) Inj 10 1d2 Str 1d2 Str 100
Viper (Tiny) Inj 12 1d2 Dex 1d2 Dex 200
Vithil seeds Ing 13 1d2 Int Amnesia 150
Bloodfly poison Inj 11 1d3 Con 1d3 Con 100
Brain acid Con 14 1d3 hp 1d3 hp 350
Centipede (Medium-size) Inj 10 1d3 Dex 1d3 Dex 400
Despair venom Inj 16 1d3 Con 2d4 Con 600
Dumb cane poison Ing 12 1d3 Con 1d8 Con 150
Golem (venom) Con/Inj 10 1d3 Con 1d2 Con 100
Grath poison Ing 13 1d3 Str KO 300
Hardak poison Con 13 1d3 Con 1d3 Con 400
Prophet’s tongue Ing 15 1d3 hp, truth Paralysis 275
Razor thorn poison Inj 13 1d3 Con 2d3 Con 300
Scorpion (Medium-size) Inj 13 1d3 Con 1d3 Con 400
Spider (Small) Inj 10 1d3 Str 1d3 Str 200
Squelleroo poison Inj 11 1d3 Con KO 500
Taint of shadow Inj 20 1d3 Levels Blindness 4,200
Twitcher’s oil Inj 13 1d3 Dex 1d3 Con 100
Vermin (Small) Inj 12 1d3 Str 1d3 Str 200
Viper (Small) Inj 13 1d3 Dex 1d3 Dex 300
Weaver rat venom Inj 11 1d3 Con 1d3 Con 300
Wit’s end powder Ing 15 1d3 Int 1d3 Wis 100
Wolfsbane poison Ing 13 1d3 Con 2d8 Con 200
Adder’s kiss poison Inj 24 1d4 Str. 3d4 Con. 800
Alcohol (severe) Ing 14 1d4 Dex/Con 1d6/KO Con 20
Ankheg acid Con 12 1d4 hp 1d4 hp 200
Bitch’s brew Ing 17 1d4 Wis/Int 1 Wis/Int 200
Black widow venom Inj 10 1d4 Dex 1d4 Dex 100
Blackroot Inj 15 1d4 Con 2d4 Con 460
Centipede (Large) Inj 11 1d4 Dex 1d4 Dex 600
Crown cobra snake large Inj 15 1d4 Dex 2d4 Dex 500
Crown cobra snake med Inj 13 1d4 Dex 2d4 Dex 500
Demon (graffiti) poison Inj 12 1d4 Con 1d6 Con 200
Demon (quasit) poison Inj 13 1d4 Dex 2d4 Dex 300
Devil (imp) poison Inj 13 1d4 Dex 2d4 Dex 300
Dolleck eggs Inj 18 1d4 hp 3d4 hp 675
Foxglove (toxic dosage) Ing 13 1d4 Dex/Wis 1d4 Con 5
Giant ant acid extract Con/Inj 14 1d4 hp 1d4 hp 400
Hellebore Ing 15 1d4 Con/Dex 1d4 Con 1
Id moss Ing 14 1d4 Int 2d6 Int 125
Insanity mist Inh 15 1d4 Wis 2d6 Wis 1500
Lost one poison Inj 13 1d4 Wis 1d4 Wis 700
Lotus extract Inh 14 1d4 Wis 2d6 Wis 1800
Mangonnel saliva Con/Inj 13 1d4 Con Paralysis 300
Mind hammer poison Con 20 1d4 Int* 1d4 Con* 150
Miredweller poison Inj 12 1d4 hp 1d4 hp, Nausea 200
Ooze (angler) acid Con 13 1d4 hp 1d4 hp 300
Physiquer hallucinatory Inj 15 1d4 Int See Entry 100
Purple akoidol Ing 20 1d4 Con/rd. 1d4 hp/round 270
Quillion poison Inj 12/18 1d4 Dex Paralysis 300
Red colony acid Con 12 1d4 hp 1d4 hp 200
Scorpion (Large) Inj 14 1d4 Con 1d4 Con 600
Serpent’s kiss poison Ing 18 1d4 Str/Con 1d6 hp 160
Skein poison Inj 17 1d4 Str None 700
Slime reaver poison Inj 14 1d4 Str 1d4 Str 400
Spell sapper poison Inj 14 1d4 Int 1d6 Int 90
Spider (Medium-size) Inj 12 1d4 Str 1d4 Str 400
Stench toad mucus Inh 12 1d4 Str None 200
Tarantula venom Inj 10 1d4 Dex 1d3 Dex 300
Tarzag’s venom Inj 15 1d4 Con 1d4 Dex 240
Tremble oil Inj 15 1d4 Dex 1d4 Dex 300
Truth water Ing 15 1d4 Wis Compels truth 200
Vermin (Medium-size) Inj 14 1d4 Str 1d4 Str 400
Violet fungus poison Con/Inj 14 1d4 Str/Con 1d4 Str/Con 400
Viper (Medium-size) Inj 16 1d4 Dex 1d4 Dex 600
Winter’s Touch til Con 16 1d4 Str 2d4 Dex 750
Wormwood poison Inj 17 1d4/1/1 Con/Str/Dex None 84
Psilocybe Ing 18 1d4/1d3 Int/Wis 1 Int*/Wis* 800
Bombardier beetle Inh 13 1d4+2 hp None 50
Acid shambler ichor Con 11 1d6 hp 1d6 hp 100
Aranea venom Inj 13 1d6 Str 2d6 Str 300
Athach venom Inj 22 1d6 Str 2d6 Str 1200
Bane cloud poison Inh 14 1d6 hp 1d2 Con/Dex 400
Black lung poison Inh 15 1d6 Con 1d6 Con 780
Black mamba venom Inj 15 1d6 Con 1d6 Con 700
Bonewing poison Inj 13 1d6 Str 1d6 Str 300
Boomslang venom Inj 11 1d6 Con 1d6 Con 350
Botulin poison Ing 16 1d6 Con 1d6 Con 300
Caro venom Con 13 1d6 Cha 1d6 Cha 240
Centipede (Huge) Inj 14 1d6 Dex 1d6 Dex 1,000
Cripple’s caress Inj 18 1d6 Dex 1d6 Str 200
Death’s bloom poison Ing 15 1d6 Wis 1d6 Wis 500
Deathblade Inj 20 1d6 Con 2d6 Con 1800
Demon (bebilith) venom Inj 20 1d6 Con 2d6 Con 6,000
Demonic essence Con 15 1d6 Wis See Entry 400
Devil (osyluth) poison Inj 14 1d6 Str 2d6 Str 400
Devil (pit fiend) venom Inj 21 1d6 Con Death 2,100
Dregg spores Inh 12 1d6 Wis 1d6 Wis 250
Drider venom Inj 16 1d6 Str 1d6 Str 600
Ebon spider venom Inj 22 1d6 Str Nightmare 1200
Ettercap venom Inj 13 1d6 Dex 2d6 Dex 300
Fogwitt poison Ing 12 1d6 Wis Intoxication 100
Formian (taskmaster) Inj 15 1d6 Str 1d6 Str 500
Formian (warrior) Inj 14 1d6 Str 1d6 Str 400
Giant bee poison Inj 13 1d6 Con 1d6 Con 300
Giant wasp poison Inj 18 1d6 Dex 1d6 Dex 210
Golem (serpent) Inj 15 1d6 Con 1d6 Con 500
Hydra snake (type I) Inj 17 1d6 Con 1d6 Con 700
Ipitt venom Inj 15 1d6 Int 1d6 Int 500
Medusa poison Con/Inj 14 1d6 Str 2d6 Str 400
Physiquer death knell Inj 15 1d6 Con 2d6 Con 1500
Purple worm poison Inj 24 1d6 Str 2d6 Str 1400
Salamander poison Con 10 1d6 Str 1d3 Str 100
Sand wyvern poison Inj 14 1d6 Dex 1d6 Dex 400
Scorpion (Huge) Inj 18 1d6 Con 1d6 Con 1,000
Skiver poison Con/Ing/Inj 16 1d6 hp See Entry 3000
Snow racer venom Inj 11 1d6 Con 1d6 Con 100
Spider (Large) Inj 13 1d6 Str 1d6 Str 600
Spider-eye goblin ven. Inj 13 1d6 hp 1d6 hp 300
Ta’rarra spores Inh 18 1d6 Wis 2d4 Str 750
Terinav root Con 16 1d6 Dex 2d6 Dex 750
Ubanter poison Inj 13 1d6 hp 1d6 hp 300
Vermin (Large) Inj 16 1d6 Str 1d6 Str 600
Viper (Large) Inj 18 1d6 Dex 1d6 Dex 800
Visceral golem acid Con/Inj 15 1d6 hp 1d6 hp 800
White fire poison Inj 20 1d6 Str 2d6 Str 2,200
Yuan-ti venom Inj 17 1d6 Con 1d6 Con 700
Carnifex poison Inj 18 1d6/1d4 Con/Str 1d6 Con/Dex 800
Locoweed Ing 13 1d6/1d4 Int/Wis Confused 1
Opium Inh 18 1d6/1d4 Dex/Int 1d4/1d2 Dex/Int 10
Centipede (Gargantuan) Inj 17 1d8 Dex 1d8 Dex 2,600
Giant wolf spider Inj 13 1d8 hp 1d8 hp 300
High gorgon venom Inj 19 1d8 Con 1d8 Con 900
Naga (spirit) venom Inj 18 1d8 Con 1d8 Con 800
Naga (water) venom Inj 17 1d8 Con 1d8 Con 700
Sand burrower Inj 13 1d8 hp 1d8 hp 300
Scorpion (Gargantuan) Inj 23 1d8 Con 1d8 Con 2,600
Spider (Huge) Inj 16 1d8 Str 1d8 Str 1,000
Stone fish poison Inj 15 1d8 Con 1d4 Con 300
Tamhel’s last meal Ing 17 1d8 Con 1d8 Con 250
Udamentaz poison Inj 16 1d8 Con 1d6 Con 600
Viper (Huge) Inj 20 1d8 Dex 1d8 Dex 1,000
Gore beetle poison Inh 15 –2 on rolls None 500
Sassone leaf residue Con 16 2d12 hp 1d6 Con 300
Blight wolf venom Inj 21 2d4 Con 2d4 Con 2100
Couatl venom Inj 16 2d4 Str 4d4 Str 600
Digitalis poison Ing 18 2d4 Con 2d4 Con 500
Golden cobra Inj 16 2d4 Str 4d4 Str 750
Green oil Con 15 2d4 hp 1d4 Con 170
Mindbreaker poison Ing 12 2d4 Wis 1d4 Wis 75
Naga (hollow) venom Inj 16 2d4 Con 2d4 Con 600
Sea drake venom Inj 16 2d4 Con 2d4 Con 3,000
Telsath’s powder Ing 16 2d4 Str 1d6 Str 220
Achaierai black Con/Inh 15 2d6 hp Insanity 500
Amanita poison Ing 11 2d6 Con 2d6 Con 180
Angel kiss poison Inj 19 2d6 Con 2d6 Con 1600
Black fungus juice Ing 18 2d6 Cha 2d6 Cha 600
Blood Sea jellyfish Con 17 2d6 Dex 1d6 Dex 700
Centipede (Colossal) Inj 23 2d6 Dex 2d6 Dex 3,600
Crimson scourge venom Inj 15 2d6 hp (sub) Paralysis 500
Dark reaver powder Ing 18 2d6 Con 1d6 Con/Str 300
Dark womb venom Inj 22 2d6 Str 2d6 Str 1,200
Ebony creeper tea Ing 15 2d6 Int 2d6 Int 500
Formian (myrmarch) Inj 20 2d6 Dex 2d6 Dex 1000
Haicusin acid Con 15 2d6 hp 2d6 hp 500
Heart fire poison Con 20 2d6 Con 1 Con* 500
Lich dust Ing 17 2d6 Str 1d6 Str 250
Lysander’s bane Con 20 2d6 Dex 4d6 Con 2500
Nightcrawler poison Con/Inj 22 2d6 Str 2d6 Str 2,200
Phase spider venom Inj 15 2d6 Con 2d6 Con 500
Ricin poison Ing 22 2d6 Str 1d6 Str 700
Scent of lunacy Inh 18 2d6 Wis 2d6 Int 2,000
Shroomer poison Inh 15 2d6 Con 1 Con* 500
Silver sleep Ing 13 2d6 Con KO 120
Spider (Gargantuan) Inj 20 2d6 Str 2d6 Str 2,600
Toadstool Ing 14 2d6 Con 1d4 Con* 1
Vermin (Huge) Inj 20 2d6 Str 2d6 Str 1,000
Viper (Gargantuan) Inj 36 2d6 Dex 2d6 Dex 3,600
Widowmaker’s salve Con 26 2d6 Str 2d6 Con 1,500
Wyvern poison Inj 17 2d6 Con 2d6 Con 700
Demon (locust) poison Inj 19 2d8 Dex 1d8 Dex 900
Hoard beetle acid Con/Inj 15 2d8 hp 2d8 hp 500
Naga (guardian) venom Inj 19 2d8 Con 2d8 Con 900
Red-stripe skunk Inh 15 2d8 hp 1 Str* 500
Spider (Colossal) Inj 28 2d8 Str 2d8 Str 3,600
Vermin (Colossal) Inj 36 2d8 Str 2d8 Str 3,600
Viper (Colossal) Inj 44 2d8 Dex 2d8 Dex 4,400
Curl fungus poison Inh 20 -3 to AC, atk None 300
Black lotus extract Con 20 3d6 Con 3d6 Con 2500
Death’s breath Inh 23 3d6 Con 3d6 Con 3,500
Dragon bile Con 26 3d6 Str None 1,500
Dragon tears poison Con 25 3d6 Con 1*/1* Con/Wis 5,200
Ooze (maggot) acid Con/Inj 17/12 3d6 hp Disease 900
Vermin (Gargantuan) Inj 26 3d6 Str 3d6 Str 2,600
Allevar Ing 20 4d6 Con. See Entry 1100
Cathedral beetle acid Con/Inh 17 4d6 hp 4d6 hp 700
Cavecrawler acid Con 18 4d6 hp 4d6 hp 1,500
Digester acid Con 17 4d8 hp 4d8 hp 700
Flesh terror poison Inh 17 4d8 hp 1d4 Con* 800
Slithervine pollen Inh 15 Blindness None 500
Spitting cobra venom Con 15 Blindness Blindness* 250
Necropotent elixir Ing 25 Blindness* 3d6* Int + Deafness 2,000
Klaaku bean Ing 18 Death None 2800
Squalch melon poison Inh 18 Disease 1d3+1 Con 1,000
Child trap poison Inh 18 Euphoria KO 800
Brainweed pollen Inh 17 Hallucination 1d4 Con 700
Night singer poison Inj 18 Hallucination 1d3 Wis, fear 800
Red mist poison Inh 14 Homicidal 1d4 Int 1200
Dream weaver blood Ing 20 KO None 4000
Drow sleep poison Inj 17 KO KO 700
Final touch Inj 15 KO 3d6 Con 500
Mandrake poison Ing 17 KO 1d2 Con* 1
Mossborn poison Inh 13 KO None 350
Mycelium poison Inh 13 KO None 250
Mycobeast poison Inh 13 KO None 300
Naga (dark) poison Inj 16 KO None 600
Night tyrant poison Inh 17 KO None 700
Poisoned thorns Inj 20 KO None 100
Pseudodragon Inj 12 KO KO 200
Sombal poison Inj 12 KO None 75
Sour grub venom Inj 14 KO Paralysis 400
Tooth fairy (sleep) Inj 18 KO None 400
Belladonna poison Con/Ing 15 Nausea 1d8 hp 5
Bryony poison Con/Ing Var. Nausea 1d3/1d2 Str/Con 1
Cobra Ogre venom Inj 15 Nausea None 500
Euphorbia poison Con 12 Nausea 1d3 Str 2
Hog’s breath Inh 14 Nausea None 200
Larkspur Ing 14 Nausea None 1
Black adder venom Inj 12 None 1d6 Str 120
Bloodroot Inj 12 None 1d4/1d3 Con/Wis 100
Deathsleep Ing 14 None Feign death 95
Grunt dart venom Inj 12 None Paralysis 200
Nitharit Con 13 None 3d6 Con 650
Oil of taggit Ing 15 None KO 90
Scorpion cactus poison Inj 12 None 1d6 Str 200
Spider eater venom Inj 17 None Paralysis 700
Spire wyvern poison Inj 13 None Paralysis 300
Blood sprite venom Inj 11 Paralysis None 100
Carrion crawler Con/Ing 13 Paralysis None 300
Chupacabra venom Inj 15 Paralysis None 500
Chuul gland extract Con/Ing 19 Paralysis None 900
Crowing crested cobra Inh 15 Paralysis Petrification 2,500
Demon (abyssal larva) Con 11 Paralysis None 100
Desertstalker poison Con/Inj 13 Paralysis None 300
Fleshcrawler venom Inj 15 Paralysis None 500
Ghoul toxin, greater Inj 15 Paralysis KO 500
Ghoul toxin, lesser Inj 12 Paralysis KO 350
Giant anemone venom Inj 21 Paralysis None 1100
Lard worm venom Inj 10 Paralysis None 100
Lurker below poison Con 13 Paralysis None 300
Mohrg ichor Con 17 Paralysis None 700
Ooze (angler) poison Con 13 Paralysis None 300
Physiquer paralysis Inj 15 Paralysis None 200
Slow death poison Inj 22 Paralysis See Entry 378
Stinging lady poison Inh 15 Paralysis None 200
Surf tangler poison Con/Inj 13 Paralysis None 300
Tendriculos gastric Con/Ing 19 Paralysis None 900
Witch’s cauldron Ing 25 Paralysis Asphyxiation 525
Wyrmspawn venom Inj 13 Paralysis None 300
Xill venom Inj 14 Paralysis None 400
Narleth acid venom Inj 18 Paralysis* 1 Con* 1,800
Gorgon breath vapor Inh 17 Petrification None 1700
Dream lily poison Inh 14 Sleep None 200
Aboleth mucus Ing 19 Suffocation None 900
Asaath venom Inj 14 Toxic shock None 400

Nokao
2011-01-31, 11:01 AM
Do someone have Poisoncraft: The Dark Art ?

I can't find it :/

Nokao
2011-01-31, 11:16 AM
Do someone have Poisoncraft: The Dark Art ?

I can't find it :/

Oh it costs 3 dollars ... sorry.

Bought

CycloneJoker
2011-01-31, 11:17 AM
Dude, just be a Wizard/Psion and use Minor Creation to drop 125ft^3 of Black Lotus thingy into their square. I figure, assuming they're medium, and don't have Steadfast Determination, they will fail about 5984 saves, on the first save, assuming 1 fluid ounce is a dose, and about 299 saves on the second save, assuming they fail on a one, meaning they will take 65,978 points of Con damage. I think they're kinda, a little, maybe DEAD.

Tell me if I did my math wrong.

SurlySeraph
2011-01-31, 11:22 AM
What annoys me about poisons is that so few classes get the poison use ability. Only blackguards and assassins from core can use them without accidentally poisoning themselves. I mean, you'd think an alchemist dabbling as a poison maker could get this as a feat but nope, it's a class ability. :smallsigh:

Master of Poisons feat in Drow of the Underdark gives you Poison Use and lets you apply poison to a weapon as a swift action. It also lets bards get Poison Use as an ACF. Also, immunity or high enough saves aren't too hard to get.

Kol Korran
2011-01-31, 11:34 AM
hey Epinephrine. one of my players had the exact same problem- he liked the thought of using poisons, but in a previous campaign they became impractical. the main problem was the production cost and time. we made some rules which are serving us well so far, without any special problems. the player seems pleased. (he's in love with sasson leaf poison for some odd reason) I didn't make any rules for gathering herbs and the like though. i hope this will help in some way: (oh, almost forgot, i made it clear with the player that he isn't abusing this to get more money easily)

- buying meterials: always a 1/3 of the market price.

- you can't buy the materials for the following poisons: Dragon bile, purple worm, Wyvern. you can but wyvern poison itself, but not the other two. you may extract the poisons from the creatures themselves.

- crafting poison: you roll for the poison's DC to create (different from the DC to resist!) if you reach the DC, you create 1/4 of the poison, for every 5 above it, you create 1/4 more. that way- it should take you on average 3-4 days to create a poison fairly reasonably. if you fail by less then 4- no progress, but no harm. if you fail by 5 or more- you ruin half the materials for the poison. notice that the cost of the poison doesn't matter in this! i hope this is a simple enough method, that would speed things up a bit.

- extracting poison from other sources: you make a craft check against the average between the resistance and crafting DC (i will tell you in advance every time). upon success you get enough material for 1d3 doses. every 5 checks above, you gain enough for 1d3 doses more (up to 3d3 doses altogether)

- there may be some special poisons or creatures in the campaign, you'll see.

Xuc Xac
2011-01-31, 11:36 AM
What annoys me most about poison rules is that they are priced based on being useful in combat and not on how hard they are to get. Making poison doesn't require a high DC Craft check. If a basic Survival check to pick some berries or mushrooms for a snack is enough to tell you "don't eat these ones", then you have all the knowledge you need to answer the question "what can I feed my enemy for brunch on Sunday?"

Nokao
2011-01-31, 11:52 AM
Dude, just be a Wizard/Psion and use Minor Creation to drop 125ft^3 of Black Lotus thingy into their square. I figure, assuming they're medium, and don't have Steadfast Determination, they will fail about 5984 saves, on the first save, assuming 1 fluid ounce is a dose, and about 299 saves on the second save, assuming they fail on a one, meaning they will take 65,978 points of Con damage. I think they're kinda, a little, maybe DEAD.

Tell me if I did my math wrong.

That's funny, but poisons must be properly worked trough craftmaking before being usable.

Also don't forget:
Material Component
A tiny piece of matter of the same sort of item you plan to create with minor creation.

CycloneJoker
2011-01-31, 11:58 AM
That's funny, but poisons must be properly worked trough craftmaking before being usable.

Also don't forget:
Material Component
A tiny piece of matter of the same sort of item you plan to create with minor creation.

Exactly, I replicate the worked ones. I think killing the Terrasque with one spell(excluding the Wish/Revise Reality/Miracle) is pretty cool, since the other one costs XP(Microcosm), but doesn't need wish.

jpreem
2011-01-31, 02:16 PM
Hmm i seem to recall from some book - probably Vile darkness - that poisonmaking used GP not SP in the formula to find out how much time is spent ( so 10 times faster). Also base is 1/3rd of price to be paid - but in case you got a ready free access to raw materials(herbalism/survival/know. nature/poisonous animal companion) then it is 1/6th.

Vaynor
2011-01-31, 03:55 PM
The Red Towel: Thread necromancy.