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Shazzbaa
2008-08-28, 01:25 PM
So!

I'm playing a cleric in a just-started 3.5 campaign. I did NOT realise, when I decided to be the cleric, that what appears to be one of the major villains of the campaign was going to be the leader of an army of undead.

Undead are going to be a pretty big thing here, I think. And as cleric, I'm guessing there's probably a lot of stuff I can do to help... I just don't know what it all is, so I wondered if you guys could suggest any spell/feats/etc. that would be a good idea for a cleric who's well aware that he's going to be dealing with a lot of undead. At this point I'm level 2, but I'll probably be keeping this character for a while, so any ideas for the future are worth considering.

Hang-Ups and such: I'm Lawful Neutral, not good, and I have no deity (though, obviously, I chose to turn undead and heal). I also have an INT score of 9, so anything that requires so many ranks in a particular skill is going to be tough, since I only get 1 skill point per level.
I have a good WIS (17) and a decent CHA (14); other than that my stats are pretty mediocre. Also I'm an elf, if that remotely matters.

Thanks for any advice you have, guys! I appreciate it. :smallsmile:

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-08-28, 01:28 PM
Buy Nightsticks later(Rod of Extra Turning). Take the various "Turn Undead" feats(Quicken Turning, et all), and see if you can go into Radiant Servant of Pelor despite not being a Pelorite.

Duke of URL
2008-08-28, 01:50 PM
Ask your DM if you can use the level check (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/classFeatureVariants.htm#turningUndeadVariantLevel Check) variant of undead turning, which would make it more effective in later levels.

BRC
2008-08-28, 04:39 PM
theres a PRC called Sacred Purifier in Libris Mortis.

Rei_Jin
2008-08-28, 06:33 PM
You should have a read of Libris Mortis and Complete Divine, those books contain just about all the information you'll need. Other than that, I'd recommend you have a look at following feats.

Improved Turning (PHB) - Adds +1 to your level for turning checks
Extra Turning (PHB) - Gives you an extra 4 Turning attempts per day
Empower Turning (Comp.Div) - Multiplies your turning attempt by 1.5
Quicken Turning (Comp.Div) - Allows you to make Turning attempts as a swift action
Sacred Healing (PHBII) - Expend a Turn attempt as a swift action to add +5 to heal checks and +2 per spell level to any Conjuration(Healing) spell that you cast that round
Sacred Burst (PHBII) - Expend a Turn attempt as a standard action to heal all living creatures within a 60ft burst by 1d8+cha mod, harms all undead the same amount
Heighten Turning (LM) - Add to your HD check by the same amount you reduce your damage check
Spurn Death's Touch (LM) - Spend a Turn attempt to heal various conditions on an ally
Font of Life (HoH) - Gain an extra save against debilitating attacks from undead

Shazzbaa
2008-08-28, 07:30 PM
Sacred Purifier: Requirements -- Alignment: Any Good.

Ah, well. :smalltongue: But, wow, how didn't I think to look in Libris Mortis? Thanks! :smallredface:

Regarding the level check variant, I'm not sure my DM would be interested in learning a new turning system and writing down a turning DC for every undead thing he makes, but I could run it by him. Just let me... let me make sure I understand this (I just learned how to turn things normally, so I'm still a little shaky with these mechanics).

Normal Turning:
You make a Turning Check to see what is the most powerful undead you would be capable of turning: 1d20 + CHA mod.
Then you roll Turning Damage to see how many HD you affect, total: 2d6 +cleric lvl+CHA mod.
And then undead are affected -- closest turnable undead first -- until you run out of Turning Damage.
Turned Undead run away, or cower if they can't run.

Level-Check Turning
You roll Turning Damage to see how many HD you affect, total: I'm assuming it's still 2d6+cleric lvl+CHA mod.
Then you make a Turning Check against each undead -- closest first -- to determine if you can turn it or not: 1d20+cleric lvl+CHA mod (versus DC 10+HD+CHA mod+Turn Resistance)
Failure means you do not expend those HD, and move on to the next undead. Success means you can paralyse the undead for 1 round. Success by 5 or more means you can turn it; turned undead run away or cower.

An example, just to be sure...
So, if I'm level 6, with a CHA mod of 2, and I'm trying to turn a... let's say, 9 HD spectre with a CHA mod of 3...
Normal Turning: I need to get the result for "cleric's level plus 3," which means I need a result of at least 19. So a roll of 17+2CHA =19 and turns it.
Level-Check Turning: I need to beat a DC of 10+ 9(HD) +3(CHA) +2(turn resistance) = 24. So a roll of 16+2CHA+6 cleric lvls = 24 and allows me to paralyse it.
Close enough.


So, it doesn't allow you to turn any more undead than you'd normally be able to, but it does make it more likely that an individual undead will be turned (unless they're mad charismatic, I suppose). It also gets rid of the need to check that chart, which is nice.

I do like this paralysis thing a lot more than making the undead run off for 10 rounds... but... that doesn't expend a turn attempt? I notice it says that attacking the undead breaks off the effect, but is doing this okay?
-Start of round -- cleric paralyses undead.
[Other players delay actions]
-Undead's turn is skipped
-Players all attack undead, breaking paralysis.
-Next round -- cleric paralyses undead.
-Undead's turn is skipped
ETCETERA.
... I mean, you'd have to beat the DC, but since you're not wasting any turn attempts, can't you just go again and again and again?

Thanks, guys, I appreciate the help. :smallsmile:

Chronicled
2008-08-28, 08:21 PM
There's also the turning as damage variant in Complete Divine, which saved my group a lot of annoyance. YMMV.

nhbdy
2008-08-28, 08:45 PM
if you like damage dealing, i like multiclassing to warlock, and using Eldritch Disciple from complete mage, one of the features lets you apply blast shapes to spells, cone heal kills undead!

jcsw
2008-08-28, 09:23 PM
Once you get 4th level spells start casting celestial brilliance (BoED), it works like daylight but any undead in the bright illumination take 1d6/round, or 2d6 if they're sensitive to sunlight. The best part? It lasts 1day/level. So you can cast it once a day on one object on your person (which you'll likely want to keep concealed), so you'll deal about 7d6/round to undead within 60ft (at level 7). How fun.

Keld Denar
2008-08-28, 11:45 PM
The biggest thing that helps with undead is Greater Turning. This is aquired via the Sun domain, all in all, not a bad domain.

The other thing you need to know is that undead hd scale pretty fast, but you can keep up with them by investing a bit of gold.

Ephod of Authority (MIC) should be your first purchase, at a meer 700g, it bumps your turning level by 1. This with the Empowered Turning feat means you are 2 levels ahead of the curve as early as level 1-3.

The next thing you should invest in is armor and a shield. Sacred upgrades (A&EG) on both give you +2 each to your effective turning level, and for a scant 9k gold each plus the base cost of the armor, you'll keep up nicely at mid levels.

Once you hit about level 10, assuming you took Craft Wonderous, the Phylactery of Undead Turning is a nice addition. +4 on top of your already +6 or so sets you a full 10 levels ahead on turning before rolling. Not bad.

If you want to go all out, your non-shield hand should wield a Rod of Defiance (Libris Mortis), which lowers the turn resistance of nearby undead by 4, effectively boosting your level another 4, and have a friend strum a Lyre of the Restless Souls (LM) for another -4 to effective HD. At a whopping +18 before rolling, you shouldn't have a problem with the 30+ hd undead as you approach later levels. Hell, Vecna's avatar will sucumb to your righteous rebukes, especially if you are packing the full might of the Sun domain behind your words.

I guess I'd highly encourage you to be good aligned, however. Cleric6/RSoX5/SE9 is one of my favorite turning builds. Look up the spell Turn Anathema to be able to swing your turnings toward outsiders as well as undead (which are remarkably easier to turn!). Also, the feat Divine Spell Power synergyses well between a caster focused cleric and a turning focused cleric. If you are gonna specialize, why not claim any applicable synergies?

Last bit of advice, read up on Knowledge: Religion. 5 ranks gives a handy +2 bonus on turning checks literally for free. What cleric isn't knowledgable about religion?

Hawriel
2008-08-29, 12:35 AM
I love playing a cleric. The base class is very effective against undead.

All the feats mention above are pritty much all you need to consider for offensive power. Remember this though. Undead are very nasty because they level drain, stat drain and cause deseases. Look into protections or cures from these.

For PRC I recomend the Hospitaler. You get Full bab, lay on hands as a paladin and cure desease 2/day. Also 3 extra feats and good fort. Very big if you want to add in all of thoughs vs undead feats. However, there is a trade off. There are 3 levels whare you dont get a spell level, and will saves are poor. Honestly its the only PRC/class with a real historical consept (and the templar) that is close to the real thing its based off of.

For domanes if your GM will let you switch them.
Healing and sun. Very effective for curing and killing.

I will recomend crafting feats. potions or scrolls and weapon. start making weapons of disruption, good allined and vs undead. Look in the Magic compendium for weapon enchanments the work against undead. There are alot.

Curmudgeon
2008-08-29, 03:39 AM
You (and your DM) should note the retraining rules in Players Handbook II. You could swap out your domains and feats for those that better suit your character needs.

Shazzbaa
2008-08-29, 08:41 AM
Okay, I should clarify -- the character is already in play, and the domains, stats, and alignment choices are all based on what fit his personality best, so I'm not willing/able to change those. I'd also feel quite a bit weird switching domains around when I'm already a godless cleric, since... that's all that really defines godless clerics. >_> If I were a DM, I know I'd cry foul.

Is Hospitaller from Defenders of the Faith? I don't have that book, but a Google search turned up some Defenders of the Faith errata (http://www.dndadventure.com/html/articles/errata_defenders_of_the_faith.html), it seems to cost some turning levels, so I'm probably gonna avoid that one.

But thanks to everyone for all these suggestions! I've got a whole lot to look into now. lussmanj, Rei_Jin, especially thanks for the super-detailed info. ^^ I really appreciate it. I'll read over all this stuff and see what I can use. (Man, the only thing I really hate about 4e is how hard it is to find 3.5 books now. I've been looking for Complete Divine and Defenders of the Faith for some time now, and all I can find in any book store is PHBv4, MMv4, DMGv4, and the Book of Erotic Fantasy. :smallconfused: )


Last bit of advice, read up on Knowledge: Religion. 5 ranks gives a handy +2 bonus on turning checks literally for free. What cleric isn't knowledgable about religion?
From our game:
"No, we don't even have knowledge religion." -Aramil's player
"Why not? [to Shazz] Why don't you have it?" -DM
"INT! NINE! I have a -1 on the knowledge skills that I do not have!" -Shazz

Yeaaaahhhh... I should probably get on that...

xPANCAKEx
2008-08-29, 08:53 AM
convert?

as a cleric without a specific god, converting shouldn't be so hard. Just roleplay it well, finding faith in a god (pelor being the obvious choice) in a time of need - ie: splatting the undead hoarde

ericgrau
2008-08-29, 09:27 AM
Lol. I'm converting for more turning. But no, it's not really for the turning it's for the, uh, what are your god's ideals again?

Try these:
www.d20srd.org


Phylactery of Undead Turning
This item is a boon to any character able to turn undead, allowing him to do so as if his class level were four levels higher than it actually is.

Moderate necromancy [good]; CL 10th; Craft Wondrous Item, 10th-level cleric; Price 11,000 gp.




Circlet of Persuasion
This silver headband grants a +3 competence bonus on the wearer’s Charisma-based checks.

Faint transmutation; CL 5th; Craft Wondrous Item, eagle’s splendor; Price 4,500 gp.




Turning Check
The first thing you do is roll a turning check to see how powerful an undead creature you can turn. This is a Charisma check (1d20 + your Charisma modifier).



Improved Turning [General]
Prerequisite
Ability to turn or rebuke creatures.

Benefit
You turn or rebuke creatures as if you were one level higher than you are in the class that grants you the ability.


There's +5 to your effective cleric level and +3 to your turning checks right there for not too much coin. That's +6 effective cleric levels in core, since rolling 3 higher on a turn check boosts your effective level by 1 (though there's a +4 cap). Boosting cha can help further, and I didn't include the +2 from knowledge(religion).

This thread smashes "turning is useless at high levels" within about 5 posts:
http://forums.gleemax.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-497465.html

I'm sure there's a ton of other tricks I'm missing. There are spells good against undead or that boost turning even.

For one, try this for a +4 in your home base and some nice RP material too:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/hallow.htm
Tack a death ward to it for an added bonus

Shazzbaa
2008-08-29, 10:10 AM
convert?

as a cleric without a specific god, converting shouldn't be so hard.
I am not a cleric without a specific god, I'm a cleric who specifically doesn't have a god. No converting. :smalltongue:


Turning Check
The first thing you do is roll a turning check to see how powerful an undead creature you can turn. This is a Charisma check (1d20 + your Charisma modifier).
....nice to know! I missed that. But can you wear a phylactery and a circlet at the same time?

jcsw
2008-08-29, 11:27 AM
I am not a cleric without a specific god, I'm a cleric who specifically doesn't have a god. No converting. :smalltongue:


....nice to know! I missed that. But can you wear a phylactery and a circlet at the same time?

'm pretty sure a circlet is worn on a head, while a phylactery is a trinkety thingy that is unslotted.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-08-29, 11:32 AM
'm pretty sure a circlet is worn on a head, while a phylactery is a trinkety thingy that is unslotted.I thought the Phylactery took up an Amulet Slot. :smallconfused:

Darrin
2008-08-29, 11:34 AM
Okay, I should clarify -- the character is already in play, and the domains, stats, and alignment choices are all based on what fit his personality best, so I'm not willing/able to change those. I'd also feel quite a bit weird switching domains around when I'm already a godless cleric, since... that's all that really defines godless clerics. >_> If I were a DM, I know I'd cry foul.

You can take the Planar Touchstone feat and use the Catalogues of Enlightenment to pick up the Sun domain power. Doesn't matter who your deity is or whether its in his domain portfolio.

Shazzbaa
2008-08-29, 12:08 PM
'm pretty sure a circlet is worn on a head, while a phylactery is a trinkety thingy that is unslotted.

Phylacteries are traditionally strapped to the forehead, so I'm running off that knowledge. I dunno if D&D changed that.

Wait -- *checks SRD* -- yup, it says they're worn on the forehead. If they somehow don't take up a slot, though, that would be swell.

TheCountAlucard
2008-08-29, 12:11 PM
A humanoid-shaped body can be decked out in magic gear consisting of one item from each of the following groups, keyed to which place on the body the item is worn.

One headband, hat, helmet, or phylactery on the head

There you go.

EDIT: Dang, ninja'ed.

jcsw
2008-08-29, 12:29 PM
Strange. Seeing that a phylactery is a type of amulet. I guess DnD isn't like real life.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tefillin

Shazzbaa
2008-08-29, 01:17 PM
Strange. Seeing that a phylactery is a type of amulet. I guess DnD isn't like real life.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tefillin

Buuutt...


Tefillin, also called phylacteries, are a pair of black leather boxes containing scrolls of parchment inscribed with biblical verses. The hand-tefillin, or shel yad, is worn by Jews wrapped around the arm, hand and fingers, while the head-tefillin, or shel rosh, is placed above the forehead.

...they're worn on the head, so they take up a head slot. It's close enough to real life. :smalltongue:

mabriss lethe
2008-08-29, 01:41 PM
'm pretty sure a circlet is worn on a head, while a phylactery is a trinkety thingy that is unslotted.

however, I think the Vestige Phyactery (or whatever it's called) from tome of magic is an unslotted trinkety thingy. consistency? what's that.\?

Telonius
2008-08-29, 02:03 PM
... Are you sure you're not all interested in stealing the undead away from the BBEG and using them to start your own Legions of Terror?

:xykon: - Come on, it'll be fun!

Ifni
2008-08-29, 02:50 PM
*reads thread* Yup, most of what I was going to say is already covered. At mid-high levels, undead tend to acquire a lot of hit dice, so you really need to invest in items to stay up to speed with turning - phylactery + sacred armor / shield + ephod of authority + rod of defiance + lyre of the restful soul should be plenty, though :smallsmile: (although check with your GM whether the sacred armor stacks with the sacred shield before you buy both: I know some consider them the same type of bonus)

The Disciple of the Sun feat from Complete Divine will let you do Greater Turning without needing the Sun domain: you burn two turn attempts to do a Greater Turning. Empower Turning will be very useful if you're fighting hordes and hordes of weak undead.

Complete Champion has the spells Light of Faith, Light of Wisdom and Light of Purity. They're all swift-action spells that grant bonuses to turning: Light of Faith gives a bonus to your turning check, Light of Purity gives a bonus to turning damage, and Light of Wisdom gives a bonus to effective turning level (although only for determining max HD you can affect, and whether you destroy them outright - but those are the important aspects).

Everyman
2008-08-30, 10:10 AM
...they're worn on the head, so they take up a head slot. It's close enough to real life. :smalltongue:

Wow. Who'd have thought a religion minor would come in handy on this site? Shazzbaa, many different cultures have the equivalent of a phylactery, and where is was worn actually governed its purpose. I can think of a few cultures where is was actually worn on your upper arm, and it was supposed to help the divine help "guide your hand" through the day. It is a sort of metaphor, in that whatever part of you is holding the phylactery is supposed to be in contact with something divine, and therefore should only do what is right by your faith.

As far as suggestions for your character, I can't think of much that hasn't been mentioned here. The only thing that might be helpful is if a couple people in your party have some restorative potions or items. You'll be the most capable person to heal and hold the undead at bay, but you aren't invinicible. Make sure there is a first-aid kit for YOU in case you suffer an attack.

Randel
2008-08-30, 01:35 PM
Just curious, would it be more effective to turn undead to potentially destroy an undead enemy, or to rebuke undead and then order your new minion to go kill/distract the other non-controlled undead?

I mean, kill an enemy, you get a dead enemy. Brainwash an enemy, and you get a minion you can either use to set off traps, kill other enemies, act as a meat shield in a fight, or just order it to stand still while the fighter lops its head off at his leisure. This isn't counting all the potential undead workers have for building orphanages or helping old ladies across the street.

Shazzbaa
2008-08-30, 02:10 PM
Tarkhan -- well, THE MORE YOU KNOW! Consider me informed! :smallbiggrin:

Actually, bouncing off of Randel's post, I have a question: is turning the best option? Now, I've already chosen to turn undead and heal, so that's not the other option, but... If I'm not using the level-check version, then turning makes undead run away, correct? In-character this seems like it should be a good thing, but IRL, I play with people who get understandably miffed if you banish the demon and they don't get the experience for killing it. If you're standing at the door and forcing the zombies to cower in the corner, that's awesome, but if you make the allip fly away through the wall then it's just... gone, and that's much less awesome (and playing under some DMs, it'll show up in some random room where you least wanted it to be).

Am I misunderstanding anything here, or is turning very situational?

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-08-30, 02:15 PM
You still get XP for bypassing the challenge(or you should), especially if you either hunt it down, or make sure it can't attack you somehow.

monty
2008-08-30, 02:23 PM
If you don't get XP for making things run away, then you don't have a very nice DM. A win is a win, regardless of whether the other guy's dead (well, since they're already undead in this case, I guess...well, you get what I mean).