The New Wave

[Roxlimn]

Web comics.

Manga has always been a powerful force and could be a quality product in Japan because its user base is varied and its range of market and topics are wide. Best of all, it's profitable because a LOT of people think that it's good fun to read good comics.

Web comics has brought a certain amount of that to the English speaking world, and to the US specifically. There are a lot more web comics than paper comics I would pay for right now.

Recently, a highly profitable venture was released in Japan that streamed comics direct to cellphones, for a nominal cost (no paper to print, after all). It was experimental but turned out to be a profitable product and now trial services are expanding to Taiwan (and supposedly Singapore).

The US's cellphone market segment is shot to crap because of the way the service providers are set up. But the iPod segment is not, and iPods are very commonplace. It doesn't take any special formatting or equipment to view comics on an iPod Touch - it's just a jpeg file like any other picture. What's necessary is to have comics that are frame-sized for the screen so that they make maximum use of the available real estate without putting in so much detail that it gets blurry.

These comic files can be sold through the iTunes store or they can be sold (for-iPod comics) on the internet for downloading onto your iPod for viewing manually.

This can be the New Wave. Quality comics for cheap about a vast array of possible topics and interests. Spread the word, or speak your piece.

[Roxlimn]

There's already a manga selection on the iPod! But alas, no English comics. If you want English comics for sale (for cheap, hopefully) on the iPod, voice your interest. Tell your FLCBS! Tell your friends. Tell everyone!

Heck, I'm posting this here in the hopes we get some kind of OotS representation in there...

[Hairb]

I can't really see this as anything more of an outgrowth of webcomics and I would reject, for the time being, any notion of the "big four" print publishers going into it at all: There's a huge question mark over profitability, loss of ad revenue and even slightest risk of cannibalising of the print readership would cause huge fears higher up the corporate ladder, the need for a DRM-enabled graphic standard would be an issue, and the large scale production of digital format comics would necessitate a big shakeup of the artistic and production lineup, which might in turn alienate fans.
File this under Flying Car/Rocket Boots/Lunar Tourism et. al. for the next decade or so.

[Roxlimn]

{Scrubbed} As of NOW, manga is already being sold profitably in Japan in digital format on mobile phones. Trials are underway in Taiwan and other markets in Asia to determine if the experiment will likewise succeed.

Heck, The New York Times and Bloomberg are already on the iPod. With advertising. And you get it for free!

It IS profitable. You don't need distributors, or retailers. You don't need actual paper, nor do you need to mock up a print, nor pay a publisher. You upload the comic on iTunes and watch the dough roll in. The phenomenal profitability of music and various nonmusic applications on iTunes itself proves that the business distribution model is quite sound.

You don't need DRM! That's the secret.

If you make it cheaper or relatively worth the trouble of paying a modest amount to download comics hassle-free, then people will prefer to do so rather than go to the trouble of getting it for "free" and then hacking it back into an iPod! You can even create modest ads like NYT to pay even more revenue.

You do NOT need to hire alternative artists. All you need to do is format framing of comics to be iPod friendly. Artists already do that for comics with alternative sizes.

You do NOT need to drastically modify production. Comics invariably already have a digital formatting stage or at least are archived in digital form. You simply need to make them available on iTunes.

This thing is NOW. And the US is getting left behind because of lack of vision and the predominance of fear over innovation. It's like England using gas lights when the rest of the world is already using electric. It's like US citizens not getting TV on their phones when people in the Philippines already get cable AND network programming on their phones.

Don't be a bystander. Voice your desire for this format. Talk to friends. Talk to relatives. Talk to publishers. Talk to artists. Talk to EVERYONE. The technology is here, right now. The business model is proven. Make it happen.

[Hairb]

{Scrubbed}


As of NOW, manga is already being sold profitably in Japan in digital format on mobile phones. Trials are underway in Taiwan and other markets in Asia to determine if the experiment will likewise succeed. And, as of NOW (what's wrong with regular old now, I ask.) Tokyopop, a leading distributor of English language manga, has downsized positions related to its English language publications, including positions related to its underperforming OEM publications. What works well into Japan doesn't necessarily translate into success in a Western market.


Heck, The New York Times and Bloomberg are already on the iPod. With advertising. And you get it for free!
And I'll bet the publishers of those two brands say nightly prayers to whatever dark gods they owe any readership whatsoever in the iTunes demographic to. Devil worship conspiracy theories aside, the number of people who collect NYT for collection's sake could be measured on the number of fingers present at the World Blind Butchers' Benevolent Society's 2008 Congress. NYT is a newspaper, which by its very nature is thrown away after reading. Bloomberg is a glorified wire service, for God's sake, and if its stories aren't present everywhere, all the damn time, somebody deserves to get fired. Comics are a different medium. The contents of a comic is sold with the expectation it will form part of a collection of some sort, not with the expectation that it will hang around until tomorrow's edition is released and no longer beyond that time (like a newspaper) or that it will be licensed in many, many other foreign publications (like a wire service).


It IS profitable. You don't need distributors, or retailers. You don't need actual paper, nor do you need to mock up a print, nor pay a publisher. You upload the comic on iTunes and watch the dough roll in. What are you selling, again? The Adventures of Generic Man? The Stoppable-by-any-other-super-hero-or-villain-on-the-market QMen? Exemplary Dude and his Thoroughly Uninspiring Intellectual Property? Compared to Super-, Spider-, or any given X-Man, I don't see there being any serious competition. Brand recognition; don't **** with it.


The phenomenal profitability of music and various nonmusic applications on iTunes itself proves that the business distribution model is quite sound.

You don't need DRM! That's the secret.

{Scrubbed} Comics and music aren't merely apples and oranges. They're apples and lawnmowers. Consider the fact that once an issue of Comic X is published, it effectively ceases to be profitable once the next issue is released (generally within 30 - 60 days) or the TPB collects it. Consider the fact that Pink Floyd's Dark Side of the Moon (for example, I just picked something I liked. There are probably others that prove my point to an even greater degree) is, sales-wise, still an impressive performer, 35 years after its release. Consider the fact that an iPod's screen can not display even a single page of a comic without a) magnification so high you need to spend ages scrolling (can iPods even do that?), b) severe eyestrain or c) modification/mutilation of the original product. Now, go and try to quietly abandon your idea in the hope people won't still laugh about it in ten years time. (Take that Liefeldian mutant commandos!)


If you make it cheaper or relatively worth the trouble of paying a modest amount to download comics hassle-free, then people will prefer to do so rather than go to the trouble of getting it for "free" and then hacking it back into an iPod! You can even create modest ads like NYT to pay even more revenue. Frankly, if people will wait two or three days until some "Digital Comics Preservation" guy posts it as a .torrent in .cbr format, then I think they'll wait for anything. The only advantage a theoretical priced digital comic could have over a free DCP version is punctuality. Unless, of course, the digital version consists of material available nowhere else. That would, of course, require DRM (to make the investment in "exclusive" extra content live up to its name), white-anting of the existing print readership (why read a book that is for all intents and purposes incomplete compared to the digital one?) or some kind of drunk lunatic being loose at the helm.

You do NOT need to hire alternative artists. All you need to do is format framing of comics to be iPod friendly. Artists already do that for comics with alternative sizes. Except that they don't. Every letter, stroke, dot or splash any writer, penciler, colourist, letterer et cetera contributes to a comic costs money. Failure to pay for adaptation to a small screen-friendly format results in a) an unreadable comic or b) an industrial action. Hardly ideal outcomes in either case.


You do NOT need to drastically modify production. Comics invariably already have a digital formatting stage or at least are archived in digital form. You simply need to make them available on iTunes. A page of a single magazine format comic is roughly 6.5" x 10" (more correctly, it's 17x25cm, but imperial users of the world made their bed long ago and can sleep in it, for all I care). Try to shrink that down to the size of an iPod screen and read it effectively without scrolling through it at 10x magnification for around 6-7 minutes per page. I dare you.


This thing is NOW. And the US is getting left behind because of lack of vision and the predominance of fear over innovation. It's like England using gas lights when the rest of the world is already using electric. It's like US citizens not getting TV on their phones when people in the Philippines already get cable AND network programming on their phones.

Don't be a bystander. Voice your desire for this format. Talk to friends. Talk to relatives. Talk to publishers. Talk to artists. Talk to EVERYONE. The technology is here, right now. The business model is proven. Make it happen.
Allow me to rephrase this statement in a more correct manner:


Some guys in Japan have done something that seemed to work OK. Of course, this means that it will work fine everywhere else too. Untested, unproven methods are clearly the way of the future, and currently existing methods that have existed for years belong back with cavemen, dinosaurs or other members of the pre-myspace generation. It's like a bunch of totally irrelevant similes that don't really ring true in the first place! Have a catchphrase!

A webcomic in the three panel/ day tradition could conceivably market itself as a digital-only product, and it might even succeed, although, given the fraction of webcomics that ever become meaningfully profitable, I'd be better off putting money on the greyhounds and so would you. A paper-format comic, on the other hand, wouldn't succeed. At all. Not merely for the reasons I outlined above, but for the simple fact that it would need to change itself so dramatically as to alienate the conventional viewing market altogether. As for a more practical exercise of the paper-meets-digital theory, have a look at Dark Horse's Myspace. It showcases (read: advertises) existing, proven brands in a familiar (almost identical) format with new (read: cheap) artistic talent. And, as a supplement, not a replacement, it works.

[Roxlimn]

Hairb:



And, as of NOW (what's wrong with regular old now, I ask.) Tokyopop, a leading distributor of English language manga, has downsized positions related to its English language publications, including positions related to its underperforming OEM publications. What works well into Japan doesn't necessarily translate into success in a Western market.


Absolutely. The selling of anime and manga in the US market is heavily influenced by the presence of illegal translations and also-ran subpar publications as well. Tokyopop AS Tokyopop is using a good model for selling manga digitally, and as far as I can tell, it's applicable.



Comics are a different medium. The contents of a comic is sold with the expectation it will form part of a collection of some sort, not with the expectation that it will hang around until tomorrow's edition is released and no longer beyond that time (like a newspaper) or that it will be licensed in many, many other foreign publications (like a wire service).


That's a bad model, actually. Many people I know who USED to collect comics did so for the sake of collection. For the most part, they've stopped since many of the comics they bought for collection purposes have significantly lost their luster.

Continuing comic buyers do so because they LIKE the stories that the comics tell, not because they intend to vault it and treat it like long term stocks.



What are you selling, again? The Adventures of Generic Man? The Stoppable-by-any-other-super-hero-or-villain-on-the-market QMen? Exemplary Dude and his Thoroughly Uninspiring Intellectual Property? Compared to Super-, Spider-, or any given X-Man, I don't see there being any serious competition. Brand recognition; don't **** with it.


OotS has no brand recognition to speak of, but it is well-known. VG Cats is, too. These comics are no longer about crap superheroes with crap powers doing the same thing over and over again. That's got very limited appeal, really.

Penny Arcade, VG Cats, Strong Bad - these are animation and comic material that you buy for the sake of reading them, not storing them in the hopes of some collectible value later on. They are a stronger form of medium and can support a profitable return.

Strong Bad is already available on video platforms as an ongoing episodic game. So is Penny Arcade, actually.



Consider the fact that Pink Floyd's Dark Side of the Moon (for example, I just picked something I liked. There are probably others that prove my point to an even greater degree) is, sales-wise, still an impressive performer, 35 years after its release. Consider the fact that an iPod's screen can not display even a single page of a comic without a) magnification so high you need to spend ages scrolling (can iPods even do that?), b) severe eyestrain or c) modification/mutilation of the original product. Now, go and try to quietly abandon your idea in the hope people won't still laugh about it in ten years time. (Take that Liefeldian mutant commandos!)


Do you even own an iPod Touch or iPhone? The thing is excellent for reading news and print material. I've read both Hana Kimi and Cardcaptor Sakura on an iPod touch, and it was absolutely okay. I'm reading Emma now. If the comic were formatted TO an iPod specifically, the experience would be much better.

I read these manga even though they are significantly old and even though they're not formatted for an iPod. Manga have longer lifespans than American comics because they don't deal with silly generic superchumps. Buddha, Tezuka's landmark manga, is still for sale today, as is Atomo.

Cowboy Bebop is an old '97 anime that people still bother to buy for the purpose of watching it, not for collection, so yes, these things certainly do retain value after decades have elapsed. The Mazinger and Dragonball series are positively ancient and yet they still retain a following that actually view them and purchase manga and anime of them for just that purpose.

Clearly, you don't know what this is all about.



Frankly, if people will wait two or three days until some "Digital Comics Preservation" guy posts it as a .torrent in .cbr format, then I think they'll wait for anything. The only advantage a theoretical priced digital comic could have over a free DCP version is punctuality. Unless, of course, the digital version consists of material available nowhere else. That would, of course, require DRM (to make the investment in "exclusive" extra content live up to its name), white-anting of the existing print readership (why read a book that is for all intents and purposes incomplete compared to the digital one?) or some kind of drunk lunatic being loose at the helm.


Personally, I'm more of a NIN fan than a Sony fan. You have to have faith in the fans. If they like what they see, they'll volunteer to pay you. This is not some fanciful theory. Honor-based payment systems actually work provided that you have a good estimate of the returns rate and factor it into the business model.

In this case, we can't control piracy, but if the price is right and the material is good, I think such a model can work.



Except that they don't. Every letter, stroke, dot or splash any writer, penciler, colourist, letterer et cetera contributes to a comic costs money. Failure to pay for adaptation to a small screen-friendly format results in a) an unreadable comic or b) an industrial action. Hardly ideal outcomes in either case.


Adaptation? Who said anything about adaptation? I'm talking about new comics, not regurgitation of old rehashed Marvel trash.

I'm talking about making new titles - new comics. A radical idea, I'm sure.



A page of a single magazine format comic is roughly 6.5" x 10" (more correctly, it's 17x25cm, but imperial users of the world made their bed long ago and can sleep in it, for all I care). Try to shrink that down to the size of an iPod screen and read it effectively without scrolling through it at 10x magnification for around 6-7 minutes per page. I dare you.


Manga is smaller in size, particularly the compilation prints. I've already read many manga series through my iPod.



Not merely for the reasons I outlined above, but for the simple fact that it would need to change itself so dramatically as to alienate the conventional viewing market altogether. As for a more practical exercise of the paper-meets-digital theory, have a look at Dark Horse's Myspace. It showcases (read: advertises) existing, proven brands in a familiar (almost identical) format with new (read: cheap) artistic talent. And, as a supplement, not a replacement, it works.


Not at all what I had in mind. It's actually quite pathetic, IMO. The number of webcomics I'd pay to see is actually quite small, but that number is still more than the number of American-style comics I would pay to purchase, which is zero.

I would rather pay for stuff like Genshiken and Death Note, both of which retain significant value for story and artistry (not for lame collection purposes) long after their print runs are long past. I'd pay more for digital manga if it were available in the right formats.

[Roland St. Jude]

Sheriff of Moddingham: Please be civil on this board and follow the forum rules (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/announcement.php?a=1) at all times.

[Yulian]

Penny Arcade, VG Cats, Strong Bad - these are animation and comic material that you buy for the sake of reading them, not storing them in the hopes of some collectible value later on. They are a stronger form of medium and can support a profitable return.

...

Do you even own an iPod Touch or iPhone? The thing is excellent for reading news and print material. I've read both Hana Kimi and Cardcaptor Sakura on an iPod touch, and it was absolutely okay. I'm reading Emma now. If the comic were formatted TO an iPod specifically, the experience would be much better.

I read these manga even though they are significantly old and even though they're not formatted for an iPod. Manga have longer lifespans than American comics because they don't deal with silly generic superchumps. Buddha, Tezuka's landmark manga, is still for sale today, as is Atomo.


Not at all what I had in mind. It's actually quite pathetic, IMO. The number of webcomics I'd pay to see is actually quite small, but that number is still more than the number of American-style comics I would pay to purchase, which is zero.

I would rather pay for stuff like Genshiken and Death Note, both of which retain significant value for story and artistry (not for lame collection purposes) long after their print runs are long past. I'd pay more for digital manga if it were available in the right formats.


You are so wrong about so much it's hard to know where to even begin. You especially have literally no idea about the collecting habits of a comic book reader as opposed to just a collector.

See, long-term storage and keeping the book is part of the hobby. I have comics I never intend to sell that are older than I am (33 years). Every single person I know who reads comics does the exact same thing. A non-storable comic book is nothing anyone but you apparently want. See, people actually do keep issues of superhero comics because they want to, not just to try and sell them later.

Until you understand that fact you'll never understand why your business model there is so wrongheaded.

And talk smack about American comics all you want. They outsell all the weeaboo stuff in the comic shops. Heh...manga lasts longer. Yeah...old manga isn't trite. Keep telling yourself that as the huge digests of old western comic keep selling and Dark Horse moves into the Omnibus market. People buy lots of reprints, digests, and TPBs. If you don't understand that fact, then your basic idea of the audience is staggeringly flawed

Maybe you like reading something normally almost a foot tall off a 3-inch screen. Most humans don't. Several companies tried online comics. Mike Mignola tried it with Hellboy. No one wanted it.

That's the big problem. The market isn't there and likely isn't going to be. And for some other things...Penny Arcade is, in fact, often not re-readable. If I go back to their archives, many of their strips are all but incomprehensible because the specific media event they reference is long since past.

I think you've let your own like of BESM stuff and dislike of western superhero comics deeply colour your idea of what the rest of the world wants, which is very far from what you do.

- Yulian

[Roxlimn]

Yulian:

First of all, the US isn't "the rest of the world." Contrary to popular Western belief, the world has a significant population of people who are not of the West, or so I've heard.

Moving on...

The American superhero comic market is, comparatively speaking, a fringe and an inherently limited market. It hurts American comic fans to hear it, but it's true. Manga (particularly in Japan) is relatively more mainstream that than, and there are any number of theories to explain why this is so; though I haven't really heard any arguments about how it's NOT true.

In mainland Japan, manga is released in bimonthly, monthly, and weekly formats, in magazines that are not, in themselves, considered collectible. In fact, a similar phenomenon occurs in American newspapers. The best comics in the comics section of the paper are not meant for storage or collection - they are meant to be read and then discarded. These are truly long-lasting and classic comic stories. Snoopy, The Far Side, and Calvin and Hobbes have wide appeal and retain readability long after they're initially released. If you must compare to American comics to understand or accept the concept, think about those.

Manga is quite popular in Japan and in the international market. The current companies have all manner of financial and production problems, but the format and topics covered themselves have wide appeal. Manga is more popular in the US than American comics are in Japan compared to their local competitors.

The electronic comic already has proven itself to be a profitable business model in Japan. Similar feasibility tests are underway in other countries.

Hellboy has limited appeal. It's a niche comic in a comic format that's already niche (American superhero comics). More than the business model itself, I think the fact that the topic itself has little appeal leads to the failure of an online comic service. Too, one wants to read a comic away from a computer - not on it! If I was at a terminal, I would want to see a movie, not read a comic book.

But apart from that, webcomics have shown themselves to be a viable format - people do read and enjoy them. The real question is, would Americans pay to read webcomics when so many good webcomics are already free?

I think the answer there is yes. Strong Bad and Penny Arcade have already had for-sale products that did well enough that sequels are under consideration (Strong Bad is already on its second episode). This is in the American marketplace, of course.

See, I've tried to use American-only examples to try to eliminate the usual hostility American comic-lovers may have for manga (or really, Americans have for most unfamiliar non-American things in general).

You seem to be a comic collector and you're telling me that the superhero comic-collecting market won't buy into my product. I have no problem with that, since these people aren't my target market in the first place. If you consider that to begin with, you might realize that the rest of your objections are totally without basis.

A more spot-on objection would be that normal Americans have a limited tolerance for comics in general, owing to their ingrained prejudices against the format. That's more of a problem.



Maybe you like reading something normally almost a foot tall off a 3-inch screen. Most humans don't.


You have absolutely no basis for saying that. The human span of detailed sight is fairly small - no more than a few inches wide at reading distance. A large mural isn't created in the same way as a small painting because it has to take that limitation into account. Similarly, a double-page typical Marvel comic spread has to either have a lot of things going on, or held at arm's length to get a full appreciation for what's in it.

The iPod Touch's screen is sufficiently large to view a small sized photo on it. In fact, it's about 3R photo size. Most comic frames are smaller than that.

If you could format a comic to take advantage of the real-estate and the potential for various frame to frame transitions and mock animation, it's totally great. I've tried it. HAVE YOU?

[Yulian]

Yulian:

Moving on...

The American superhero comic market is, comparatively speaking, a fringe and an inherently limited market. It hurts American comic fans to hear it, but it's true. Manga (particularly in Japan) is relatively more mainstream that than, and there are any number of theories to explain why this is so; though I haven't really heard any arguments about how it's NOT true.

...

The electronic comic already has proven itself to be a profitable business model in Japan. Similar feasibility tests are underway in other countries.

...

But apart from that, webcomics have shown themselves to be a viable format - people do read and enjoy them. The real question is, would Americans pay to read webcomics when so many good webcomics are already free?

I think the answer there is yes. Strong Bad and Penny Arcade have already had for-sale products that did well enough that sequels are under consideration (Strong Bad is already on its second episode). This is in the American marketplace, of course.

See, I've tried to use American-only examples to try to eliminate the usual hostility American comic-lovers may have for manga (or really, Americans have for most unfamiliar non-American things in general).

...

A more spot-on objection would be that normal Americans have a limited tolerance for comics in general, owing to their ingrained prejudices against the format. That's more of a problem.

...

If you could format a comic to take advantage of the real-estate and the potential for various frame to frame transitions and mock animation, it's totally great. I've tried it. HAVE YOU?

A fringe market whose subsidiary items (like movies) can haul down half a billion dollars in profit. Inherantly limited in some aspects, staggeringly profitable and with a global appeal in others. The Death Note movie came and went with nary a peep, while several American comic films made simply ridiculous amounts of money. While the paper comics themselves may have limited appeal, the product-lines they are a part of do not. Manga may indeed be far more a mainstream item in Japan, but its offshoots have little to no appeal outside that country and a niche market in other countries.

What flies in Japan may not fly everywhere.

I have my doubts people would pay for webcomics. Part of what gives them their appeal is that they are free and the creators usually run on an ad-revenue basis. Strong Bad and Penny Arcade are the exceptions, and their creators would be the first people to tell you that.

Americans have tons of entertainment prejudices. Comics, animation...they have no idea, generally speaking, how to use additional formats properly.

As was mentioned previously, having to reformat a comic costs money. I've seen online comics that had moving frames, sound, and what havr you. In fact, YouTube currently has one as a tie in to the Dead Space game that will be coming out. I can't say I like it.

I don't have an automatic prejudice against manga so much as a dislike of people seeing it as some inherantly better format because it isn't Western. As with any medium, a lot of it is crap, and since it's a more common medium in Japan, there's more crap to pick through to get to anything worthwhile.

In the west, people do like to collect reading material. Making it purely an online medium likely won't work. Notice that e-books are still not catching on.

- Yulian

[Hzurr]

What flies in Japan may not fly everywhere.


But really, what doesn't fly in Japan? Robots, monsters, school girls, small animals, more robots... Seriously, they let you throw capes and rocket boots and wings on anything nowadays...

Unfortunately, while I like the idea in theory, I'm going to have to agree that simply releasing current comics in a ipod/zune/whatever form wouldn't work. I mean, take Brian Bendis, one of the top Marvel writers at the moment (in terms of sheer number of titles). He has a torrid love affair with double-page spreads. Many of his issues have more double pages than single pages (read Ultimate Spider Man as an example). This, inherently, would not work on a 3 inch screen.

Now, if they started new titles that were designed with these kinds of screens in mind, I'd say you have a product, but (as has been said before), simply converting the current stuff to a small screen wouldn't work.

As for webcomics, I actually don't see the need. As more and more people switch over to the iphone, android, etc., people can simply go to the websites to view them. I can't really see formatting it to an ipod or zune or something a long-term solution.

[Roxlimn]

Yulian:



A fringe market whose subsidiary items (like movies) can haul down half a billion dollars in profit. Inherently limited in some aspects, staggeringly profitable and with a global appeal in others. The Death Note movie came and went with nary a peep, while several American comic films made simply ridiculous amounts of money. While the paper comics themselves may have limited appeal, the product-lines they are a part of do not. Manga may indeed be far more a mainstream item in Japan, but its offshoots have little to no appeal outside that country and a niche market in other countries.


You're clearly not seeing what's really occurring there. The Spiderman movie is significantly more mainstream than Spiderman comics. It's not that the subsidiary is hauling in the cash - it's that the movies themselves were good movies that happen to be about a comic book hero.

Lots of movies that don't gross as well are based on comic book heroes, too. Punisher? Phantom?

Going by your argument, we should really be investing in Hong Kong-style action stories since their movies and action sequences permeate nearly all the best selling Hollywood action movies recently, not to mention Hong Kong products have always been popular in East Asia.

The anime movie is not a very strong product in American markets, partially because many of its fans probably prefer their own versions or rely on pirating to get their fix. You'd think that with all the bellyaching the US goes on about as far as IP is concerned, it would do better to police local piracy.



What flies in Japan may not fly everywhere.


A non-argument. I've made specific examples of American comics doing good business on this score.



I have my doubts people would pay for webcomics. Part of what gives them their appeal is that they are free and the creators usually run on an ad-revenue basis. Strong Bad and Penny Arcade are the exceptions, and their creators would be the first people to tell you that.


All the best pioneers and groundbreakers are exceptions. Is every superhero artist like Stan Lee? No.



Americans have tons of entertainment prejudices. Comics, animation...they have no idea, generally speaking, how to use additional formats properly.

As was mentioned previously, having to reformat a comic costs money. I've seen online comics that had moving frames, sound, and what havr you. In fact, YouTube currently has one as a tie in to the Dead Space game that will be coming out. I can't say I like it.


Please READ. I AM NOT TALKING ABOUT REFORMATTING CURRENT COMICS!!!!

I don't suppose I'll need to repeat that again, now, but just in case:

I AM NOT TALKING ABOUT REFORMATTING CURRENT COMICS!!!!

I'm talking about creating new comic lines for consumption on the App Store, specifically formatted for the iTouch from the ground up.

You haven't actually tried to view comics in this format, so really, you can't object to it with any kind of authority in this manner, and it shows.




I don't have an automatic prejudice against manga so much as a dislike of people seeing it as some inherently better format because it isn't Western. As with any medium, a lot of it is crap, and since it's a more common medium in Japan, there's more crap to pick through to get to anything worthwhile.


Those people are idiots.

Manga is better because of a lot of things that are NOT being emulated by the crappy AmeriManga that's trying to cash in on the fans. Blech.

There IS no difference in formatting between manga and Western comics. They're both on paper. They both have a variety of styles that overlap to some degree, and they both have black and white and inked versions.

If you can't even appreciate what differentiates a good manga from a bad one, how can you possibly hope to be taken seriously about any comic discussion?



In the west, people do like to collect reading material. Making it purely an online medium likely won't work. Notice that e-books are still not catching on.


Seriously?

eBooks are not catching on because they fail to replicate what an actual book does - it's something you can bring with you to any location you want and read at leisure without having to worry about booting up and opening files.

A desktop screen cannot do what a book does.
A laptop cannot do what a book does.

An iPod can.

When you have an iTouch, it's always with you, so it's better than a book because you don't carry it around with you, and the battery life is long enough that you don't worry about running out of power halfway through a book. It's always on so there's no need to boot up, and reading it is a breeze because you can size the font the way you like, and you always start off from where you left.

I've already read several books on my iTouch and my wife has as well, despite both of us being skeptical about the format and the application of it. The glare from the screen is tolerable because you can adjust it down several ways and still be readable, even in direct sunlight.

It's possible that we are, as we speak, seeing the beginning of the end for paper as the most common medium for transferring information in developed countries.

I still like that I have a library at home I can see and touch, but I hardly ever read any of those books anymore. With the iTouch, I can browse through an online library any time I'm in WiFi range and purchase and read any book I care to for about 99 cents US. That's literally the cost of a song!

I can pack any number of books with me - certainly more than I can ever read in the span of a day. The most tech savvy MDs of my acquaintance already make a point of carrying useful reference medical books with them on their PDAs at all times.


IF Western people do not let go of their bigotry and narrow-mindedness on this front, they WILL be left behind yet again, just like the US is already behind in terms of cellphone products.

Hzurr:



Now, if they started new titles that were designed with these kinds of screens in mind, I'd say you have a product, but (as has been said before), simply converting the current stuff to a small screen wouldn't work.


Absolutely. I never said it would, and I never proposed it.



As for webcomics, I actually don't see the need. As more and more people switch over to the iphone, android, etc., people can simply go to the websites to view them. I can't really see formatting it to an ipod or zune or something a long-term solution.


That would be my proposal in alternate form. Instead of a downloadable format, you have a streaming format.

That said, I think it's better to be able to download the thing. Instapaper itself is one of the best utilities on the iTouch and all it does is allow you to read a page online when you're offline.

As more people view these webcomics through their iPods, it will become more apparent that these artists will need to adjust their style according to the format, or else suffer a program butchering their work as it automatically reformats the webpage for mobile viewing.

We don't necessarily have to PAY for these comics for them to be profitable. A webcomic can live on advertising alone. An iPod product hosted on the App Store server certainly doesn't cost as much in terms of ongoing distribution cost as a paper comic, and it reaches a wider audience - more newspaper than Spiderman # 31 or whatever.

[Yulian]

Lots of movies that don't gross as well are based on comic book heroes, too. Punisher? Phantom?


You haven't actually tried to view comics in this format, so really, you can't object to it with any kind of authority in this manner, and it shows.


Those people are idiots.

Manga is better because of a lot of things that are NOT being emulated by the crappy AmeriManga that's trying to cash in on the fans. Blech.

There IS no difference in formatting between manga and Western comics. They're both on paper. They both have a variety of styles that overlap to some degree, and they both have black and white and inked versions.

If you can't even appreciate what differentiates a good manga from a bad one, how can you possibly hope to be taken seriously about any comic discussion?

Seriously?

eBooks are not catching on because they fail to replicate what an actual book does - it's something you can bring with you to any location you want and read at leisure without having to worry about booting up and opening files.

A desktop screen cannot do what a book does.
A laptop cannot do what a book does.

An iPod can.

.

*Laughs at you*.

Wow. Your prejudices are showing. I can't object to a viewing format I know for a fact is on a 3 inch screen? I don't even watch movies on my PC because I like big screens. I'm a console gamer for the same reason.

Your statement about bad comic movies missed my point by a staggering margin. Let me be succinct.

If the Spider-Man comic never existed, we wouldn't have the movies. The movies are more mainstream because the public is aware of the comics. There's no "just happens" about it, no matter how much you may wish it to be and how much you wish any American movie audience was even aware of manga...which they aren't.

An Ipod so doesn't do what a book does.

I'm done speaking with you, really. You're such an elitist about your weeaboo books.

"If you can't even appreciate what differentiates a good manga from a bad one, how can you possibly hope to be taken seriously about any comic discussion?

Seriously?"

Haahaha.

- Yulian

[Hzurr]

*looks around*

*sees people taking things too seriously*

*ponders*

*lightbulb appears over head*

*rummages through backpack, pulls out marshmallows, coathangers, and a firepit (it was a large backpack)*

*Passes out marshmallows on the ends of coathangers*

*starts fire*

*invites people to enjoy marshmallows*

*notices that everyone is significantly less angry and aren't shouting insults at each other anymore*

*smiles*

My work here is done.

[Revlid]

*smiles*

My work here is done.

AAARGH! I DON'T LIKE MARSHMALLOWS!!!

GODJESUSCHRIST YOU PEOPLE JUST DON'T THINK OF OTHERS, DO YOU?!

I MEAN, S***, YOU COULDN'T HAVE JUST BROUGHT ANOTHER CHOICE OF CONFECTIONERY, COULD YOU?!?!

GAAH, YOU SUNSABEETCHES MAKE ME SO ANGREEE!!!!

THOUGHTLESS PUPPYF***ER!

[Roxlimn]

Yulian:



Wow. Your prejudices are showing. I can't object to a viewing format I know for a fact is on a 3 inch screen? I don't even watch movies on my PC because I like big screens. I'm a console gamer for the same reason.


You can't object to a viewing format you've never actually tried and are clearly prejudiced against.

Moreover, YOU are not the world.



If the Spider-Man comic never existed, we wouldn't have the movies. The movies are more mainstream because the public is aware of the comics. There's no "just happens" about it, no matter how much you may wish it to be and how much you wish any American movie audience was even aware of manga...which they aren't.


The movies are mainstream, but the comic is not. It's REALLY that simple.



I'm done speaking with you, really. You're such an elitist about your weeaboo books.


As you prefer. I haven't said anything about superhero comics that you shouldn't already know. On the other hand, your criticisms about the proposed format and business are, thus far, baseless; and seem to be founded on the view that American comics are the end-all and be-all of the format, perfect and immune to evolution.

[Yulian]

Yulian:

You can't object to a viewing format you've never actually tried and are clearly prejudiced against.

Moreover, YOU are not the world.

The movies are mainstream, but the comic is not. It's REALLY that simple.

As you prefer. I haven't said anything about superhero comics that you shouldn't already know. On the other hand, your criticisms about the proposed format and business are, thus far, baseless; and seem to be founded on the view that American comics are the end-all and be-all of the format, perfect and immune to evolution.

Whah, wha, wah. Go cry, emo kid.

I want to make comics for my wristwatch. You can't criticize it because you've never tried it!

Terrible argument.

See...kiddo. I have friends with Ipods. I've seen the screens, I've seen images on the screens. Perhaps the concept was difficult for you to imagine. That I might be familiar with something without actually owning it myself.

I can see how that might be a problem for someone with your sort of worldview.

Yep...the Spider-Man movies are mainstream...the comics are not.

Hmm...then again. I can go to Africa and people there know who Superman is. Do they know Light Yagami? No?

Hmmmmmmm...maybe the characters and such are more mainstream, taken in aggregate, than you are willing to admit. You also missed the point. The movies and supplementary media are mainstream. All of it, taken together. People are aware there are Spider-Man comics, even if they don't buy them.

The same cannot be said for the vast majority of all manga.

I'm a lot more representative of the world than you seem to be, that's for sure.

American comics are not the be all and end all...neither is manga, which you won't admit. You're prejudiced against...well...I won't even get into all the dismissive terms you've lobbed at "American superhero crap" so far.

Sounds like someone's resentful their favourite stuff doesn't get the play something they dislike does.

- Yulian

[Roxlimn]

Yulian:



I'm a lot more representative of the world than you seem to be, that's for sure.

American comics are not the be all and end all...neither is manga, which you won't admit. You're prejudiced against...well...I won't even get into all the dismissive terms you've lobbed at "American superhero crap" so far.


American comics are NOT mainstream fodder in its home country.

Manga IS mainstream fodder in its home country and is widely recognized in the East Asian sphere, a market with billions of potential customers. It is also known (though not mainstream, which I never contested) in the US and in the West.



Whah, wha, wah. Go cry, emo kid.


Seriously?



I want to make comics for my wristwatch. You can't criticize it because you've never tried it!

Terrible argument.


I actually wouldn't criticize that unless I've actually tried it. Who knows? Maybe there is a market for wristwatch comics.



See...kiddo. I have friends with Ipods. I've seen the screens, I've seen images on the screens. Perhaps the concept was difficult for you to imagine. That I might be familiar with something without actually owning it myself.


But have you tried reading a book or a comic on it? I mean seriously give it a chance? Probably not.



Hmmmmmmm...maybe the characters and such are more mainstream, taken in aggregate, than you are willing to admit. You also missed the point. The movies and supplementary media are mainstream. All of it, taken together. People are aware there are Spider-Man comics, even if they don't buy them.

The same cannot be said for the vast majority of all manga.


The reason for this is because American superhero comics have a very limited library in general, particularly the part that's widely recognizable. Superman essentially hasn't changed in over 50 years, and neither have many of the most recognizable characters in American superhero comics.

The best of American comics - Sandman, Fable, Watchmen, are even more obscure than stuff like Pokemon and Dragonball Z, and I don't think that there's a contemporary comic guy in the US who hasn't at least heard of the Pokemon phenomenon.