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RagnaroksChosen
2008-08-29, 10:54 AM
So i never here much about the Shugenja and the Wu jen? besides there oriental flavor are these classes any good/bad/horrible/monk? I know where the ninja and the Samuri stand... but i was curious to here opinions on these classes.

Also how do they play if your not doing an oriental setting easy to convert to a more western/northern philosophy?

Jimp
2008-08-29, 11:33 AM
As far as I know they are averagely balanced classes. They are casters but their spell lists aren't full of insta-wins, but they don't lack good spells either.
For a western/northern refluff you could portray them as elemental specialists.

Person_Man
2008-08-29, 11:40 AM
As casters, they're generally more powerful then most non-casters. But they're not as potent as the normal casters with much larger lists. Basically you play them for fluff value. I've never seen one in a real game, though I have seen OA Samurai, Ninja, etc.

Aneantir
2008-08-29, 11:47 AM
The only reason you'd play one of those classes was for Fluff, as they're sub-par compared to the other casting classes. Which has always bothered me. If you want fluff, just re-flavor something else that's more effective at what you want to achieve.

Jimp
2008-08-29, 11:51 AM
I've always wanted to play a Shugenja but I've never gotten the chance :smallfrown:.

RagnaroksChosen
2008-08-29, 11:52 AM
The only reason you'd play one of those classes was for Fluff, as they're sub-par compared to the other casting classes. Which has always bothered me. If you want fluff, just re-flavor something else that's more effective at what you want to achieve.

I Was specificaly looking for why?
I meen there lists are ok but i don't understand why there sub optimal.

TheLogman
2008-08-29, 12:29 PM
One of the things that make Wizards so powerful is that they are so versatile. Buffs, Travel, Damage, Save or suck, save or die, illusions, they are all possible.

The casting classes you're talking about don't have access to all the powerful spells the wizards do, like Time Stop, Celerity, Fly, the Buffs, and other spells that fall into the categories above. To my knowledge, the classes you have mentioned do mostly elemental damage and a few other small utilities. Wizards and Sorcerers do those, plus a ton of other things.

Compared to a Fighter or Monk though, yes, the casters are superior. They're average in strength, but few people would play them if a Wizard or Sorcerer was available, since those two are so much more versatile.

Aneantir
2008-08-29, 12:44 PM
I Was specificaly looking for why?
I meen there lists are ok but i don't understand why there sub optimal.

Alright, lets put it this way.

If you've got a Wu Jen in the party who's trying to run, say, crowd control, they can do this job fairly well given their spell list (I'm assuming, don't have the books with me at the moment), but they lack some spells needed to do it as well is possible.

Now, lets say you've got a Wizard in the same position, they have all the spells they need to do the job as effectively as possible. So, in basically every way, they are directly superior to the Wu Jen in that they have the same abilities with more options.

So. Why would you play a Wu Jen? If there is a class that can do a job better than another class, why would you take the one that does less?

RagnaroksChosen
2008-08-29, 12:48 PM
hmm interesting...

i wonder about that wish i wasn't at work or i would check out the spell lists..i meen if all thats diffrent is the spell lists thats kinda crappy.

I'll have to go look at the classes more interesting guys...


eaither of them have a handbook yet?

CASTLEMIKE
2008-08-29, 02:54 PM
So i never here much about the Shugenja and the Wu jen?

besides there oriental flavor are these classes any good/bad/horrible/monk?

Also how do they play if your not doing an oriental setting easy to convert to a more western/northern philosophy?

The Shugenja is a little to complicated with the funky spells known for the little bit you are get you might as well play a Favored Soul IMO.

Mechanically the Wu Jen is weaker than a comparable wizard mostly because of the limited spell list and the Taboos don't help but the Spell Secrets are basically weighted as equivalent to a full feat IMO the ratio should be more like Double or Triple Spell Secrets.

Easy to convert the Wujen just make it a Sorcerer or give regular arcane access like a Sorcerer or a Wizard.

TheThan
2008-08-29, 03:36 PM
Yeah, the problem with the Wu Jen and the Shugenja is that their selection of spells is somewhat weak. Also I really didn’t like what they had for spells, I didn’t get a “cool an elemental caster” vibe off of either of them. They had a few, but most were just rehashed spells out of the PHB. Not that theses spells are bad, but it just felt lame.
So what I did is totally rewrite both of their spell lists and made them much cooler (thanks in no small part to the Spell compendium).

Chronos
2008-08-29, 03:59 PM
At least part of the problem is that they got a lot less support than the core casters. Almost every book contains at least a few new spells for sorcerors/wizards, but few contain new spells for Wu Jens. So the wizard has a couple dozen books to choose spells out of, but the Wu Jen only has about three.

1of3
2008-08-29, 03:59 PM
Wu Jen is mostly useless. Can't do anything a wizard could not do.

Shugenja is more interesting: Somewhere between cleric and wizard. The official spell list lacks Vigor spells, but that should be easy to remedy. All the other useful stuff is there.

Starbuck_II
2008-08-29, 04:03 PM
Alright, lets put it this way.

If you've got a Wu Jen in the party who's trying to run, say, crowd control, they can do this job fairly well given their spell list (I'm assuming, don't have the books with me at the moment), but they lack some spells needed to do it as well is possible.

Now, lets say you've got a Wizard in the same position, they have all the spells they need to do the job as effectively as possible. So, in basically every way, they are directly superior to the Wu Jen in that they have the same abilities with more options.

So. Why would you play a Wu Jen? If there is a class that can do a job better than another class, why would you take the one that does less?

As someone who played a Wu jen for a couple levels:
Crowd Control:
1st level:
Elemental Burst: Hits an area, but damage is low and effect varies on terrain.
Sleep: same as Wiz
Summon Monster: Spiders, they can entangle people with webs (8/day).
Ghost light: Causes fear/lighting effect.

2nd:
Pyrotechnics: Same as Wiz
Entangling scarf: Entangle foe (wait, can't the spider do that?) Basically not as good as SM spell except standard action to cast.
Fog Cloud
Ice Blast: But damage sucks and only fatigues targets.
Apparition: More fear effects.
Force Whip: only animals frightened by it.
SM II: More spiders!
Wall of Gloom: Awesome spell.
Hold Person if it counts.

3rd:
Stinking Cloud
SM 3: (could summon a Dretch to cast Stinking Cloud) but 1d3 med Spiders to entanle large creatures.

Not many 3rd level ones. Mostly Buffs.

4th:
Wall of Fire
Ice Storm
Wall of Ice
Solod Fog
Creeping Darkness: An awesome spell. Even Dragons can't see in this.
Wall of Bones

Best Save and still hurt spell and maybe die here: Snake Darts.
I've killed so many creatures with this. Hydras, Fire Giants, etc. Con damage rules!


Basically, they have a few unique spells, but mostly wiz. Snake Darts is enough to me for them to matter.

CASTLEMIKE
2008-08-29, 04:23 PM
I can get Ghost Light with original spell research as a Wizard and most DM/GMs will let a Sorcerer take it as an unusual spell with their limited known spell lists.