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Saph
2008-08-30, 04:32 PM
Okay, this is getting ridiculous. How on earth did these monsters get through playtesting?

I've just finished DMing a 4e session (more details here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=4821840#post4821840)). I'd thought that Fire Beetles were bad for level 1 monsters, but that was before today. Ladies and gentlemen, the contest for 'worst low-level monster' is now officially over. I give you our winner; the Needlefang Drake Swarm.

To illustrate just how ridiculous this monster is, we will use an average 2nd-level PC as a guinea pig. Give this poor doomed soul a round of applause, please. To fully appreciate the outrageousness of what you are about to see, I'll ask you to put yourself in this 2nd-level PC's place. Don't worry, it'll be brief.


The Sad, Sad Story

We raise the curtains on a combat between you and a Needlfang Drake Swarm. The Needlefang Drake Swarm begins its turn next to your character. How it got next to you I'll leave it to you to determine. Maybe you were actually foolish enough to walk up and attack it, under the delusion that you'd have the slightest chance against this little ball of death. You're about to discover otherwise, but you probably won't live long enough to learn from your mistake.

The Needlefang Drake starts off with 'Pull Down', a minor action with +7 against Fortitude, that knocks the target prone on a hit. If it misses, no problem, it just tries again with its move action. An average 2nd-level PC has a Fortitude of maybe 14; the swarm has at least a 70% hit chance. You're going down.

The swarm then follows up with 'Swarm of Teeth', a basic attack. Against a prone target this attacks at +10 vs AC and does 2d10+4 damage. It's now the beginning of your turn, and you might think the worst is over, but you'd be wrong. Since you're in the swarm's aura, it now attacks again for the same amount.

If you've been lucky, the swarm has only managed to hit you once in this, doing 15ish damage or so. If you've been unlucky - and at +10 vs AC, the DM doesn't have to roll very well for you to be unlucky - you've been pulled down and hit twice for 4d10+8 damage. Just for comparison, an average 2nd-level Leader or Striker with a 13 Con has 30 HP at full health. In short, the swarm has an pretty good chance of taking you from full health to negatives in a single round.

But that's not all. Now that you're down, the swarm is going to keep attacking you. According to the MM, needlefang drakes attack in order to eat their prey; this means the most natural thing for them to do once you're down is to hit you again and finish you off. Even if the other PCs manage to intervene to stop this, you're still in the swarm's aura, meaning that at the start of your next turn you'll get hit again for yet another 2d10+4. Going down next to a Needlefang Drake Swarm is very near to a death sentence.

The other PCs might try to drag you away except for the fact that they're going to be busy with their own problems, because the Needlefang Drake Swarm is a level 2 monster. This means there are potentially as many of them as there are PCs in your party, and that's assuming it's a standard encounter. This means that it's quite possible for two swarms to attack you at once. If this is the case, you're dead, end of story.

In short, this creature will with moderately lucky rolls drop a PC to negatives in one round, and can be sure to take down even the toughest PC in three. Meanwhile, your own attacks are bouncing off it, because as a soldier its defences are excellent and as a swarm, normal attacks do only half damage. Your wizard might be able to hurt it, assuming he wasn't pulled down and shredded in the first round, which unless someone is on human shield duty is extremely likely. At this point your best course of action, assuming you're somehow still standing, is to run away. Maybe the next party to come through will have a chance.


Conclusion

As a DM, do not throw this monster against your PCs in any kind of normal encounter unless you want them to die. As PCs, if you see one of them, run. Remember, needlefang drakes attack to eat, which means you don't have to outrun the drakes, you just have to outrun your slowest party member.

The Needlefang Drake Swarm is supposed to be a level 2 monster, at 125 XP. This is ridiculous. My personal recommendation would be to treat it and all swarms as three levels higher than their book stats, or in this case a level 5 monster worth 200 XP.

And the next time you hear someone boast that their level 1-2 party can take down any level-appropriate encounter without problems, you know what to send at them to change their minds.

- Saph

Funkyodor
2008-08-30, 04:51 PM
I do agree that the pull down & swarm of teeth tactic it has is rather effective, but the "The Needlefang Drake Swarm begins its turn next to your character." bit is a little un-realistic. You've put the swarm in a very advantageous position with no retaliation from the PC as it approached, or set the terrain to favor the monster (Ferocious cat-like creatures, go figure) so that it starts the round next to the PC. [4e] is a very mobile game, and its AC/Reflex to not be very high when combating equal level PC's. On average it will only get one pull down attempt, and against a Dwarf might not go so well. If not knocked prone, then one attack and a shift away means it doesn't get its double whammy attack and only one pull down when it gets closer. Even if prone, then one action point for a shift gets you out of the double whammy.

So like most of D&D, it's situational, depends on the character/group configuration, and the monster is only as good as the DM that plays him. Like you said, they are fearless ravenous creatures that swarm. Sneaking isn't in their nature, and hiding is flat out. They see food and charge at it.

GoodbyeSoberDay
2008-08-30, 04:55 PM
A con/str dwarf fighter with ToI and a war wizard is the best low-level solution. I agree that it's overpowered for a level 2 soldier, but I'd put it in the level 3-4 area.

Saph
2008-08-30, 04:58 PM
I do agree that the pull down & swarm of teeth tactic it has is rather effective, but the "The Needlefang Drake Swarm begins its turn next to your character." bit is a little un-realistic.

It happened repeatedly in our game, so not sure how unrealistic it is - but okay, so it moves up, then pulls you down. It's still probably going to get you. The highest Fort for a level 2 PC is about 18, the lowest about 13 - that's a 50% to 75% chance. Not good odds, and next turn it will start its turn next to you, as it can go right into your space.


So like most of D&D, it's situational, depends on the character/group configuration, and the monster is only as good as the DM that plays him.

No. No no no. I fudged while running these monsters, gave the PCs every advantage, and two of them still devastated the party. Just two. Three would have been a TPK. It's not situational - these things are just horribly overpowered. If you want an (abbreviated) account of the fight, you can read it here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=4821840#post4821840).

- Saph

Oracle_Hunter
2008-08-30, 04:59 PM
I do agree that the pull down & swarm of teeth tactic it has is rather effective, but the "The Needlefang Drake Swarm begins its turn next to your character." bit is a little un-realistic. You've put the swarm in a very advantageous position with no retaliation from the PC as it approached, or set the terrain to favor the monster (Ferocious cat-like creatures, go figure) so that it starts the round next to the PC. [4e] is a very mobile game, and its AC/Reflex to not be very high when combating equal level PC's. On average it will only get one pull down attempt, and against a Dwarf might not go so well. If not knocked prone, then one attack and a shift away means it doesn't get its double whammy attack and only one pull down when it gets closer. Even if prone, then one action point for a shift gets you out of the double whammy.

So like most of D&D, it's situational, depends on the character/group configuration, and the monster is only as good as the DM that plays him. Like you said, they are fearless ravenous creatures that swarm. Sneaking isn't in their nature, and hiding is flat out. They see food and charge at it.

Yeah, I'm going to have to disagree. The Swarm moves 7 and can do it's takedown as a minor action. It can move, takedown, and attack all in one turn. At second level a good Fort is 17 (18 STR Fighter) so he's going to be landing that sucker more than 50/50. Plus, Prone targets grant combat advantage so the 2d10 basic attack is going to hit, and it's going to suck.

2d10 is a lot of damage, and swarms are still really hard to kill. It's pretty brutal.

Saph
2008-08-30, 05:10 PM
A con/str dwarf fighter with ToI and a war wizard is the best low-level solution. I agree that it's overpowered for a level 2 soldier, but I'd put it in the level 3-4 area.

That was pretty much how my PCs survived (although only after I'd had to fudge some rolls to stop the wizard from being stripped to the bone in round 2). The eladrin fighter's first idea was Tide of Iron, too - but Tide of Iron can't push swarms. They're immune to forced movement from anything except close/area attacks.

- Saph

Grynning
2008-08-30, 05:11 PM
While I agree that the drake swarm is nasty, my party took on 5 or 6 of them (can't remember exactly) of them while we were all still level one and no one died; it was tough, but we won. Granted we have a large group (7 people), but I don't think the monster is ridiculously overpowered. If you think they are, just don't use them against your group. The main problem with over powered monsters in 3.x was that polymorph and summon spells put that power in the hands of the players; 4th has nothing that does that so far.

Oslecamo
2008-08-30, 05:13 PM
Muhaha, you poor fools.

This is WotC we're talking about. So this is just the beggining. THey were very carefull with the first set of books, but as soon as you took the bait, they threw away the care out the windown and went wild again, a la 3.5

Don't worry. The druid, when it comes out, will probably be able to wildshape into this.

ArmorArmadillo
2008-08-30, 05:17 PM
Swarms have always been a really wonky monster to deal with, and they usually spelled death to low level parties.

The big change for 4e is that now CR is no longer just a floating number, and level is an actual rules term that describes its HD. It doesn't, however, take into account a monsters abilities. So, a monster like a NFD Swarm can have abilities that are way way way too good and that doesn't change it's level.

So, yeah, overpowered for it's level monster.

@Oscl: Yeah, you're right, an overpowered monster clearly proves the myriad of complaints everyone has. Please, throw in the towel over the matter.

fractic
2008-08-30, 05:20 PM
Don't worry. The druid, when it comes out, will probably be able to wildshape into this.

Wildshaping into a swarm?

Swordguy
2008-08-30, 05:24 PM
Sounds to me like it's a misprint - change the pull-down ability to a standard action, and they aren't anywhere NEAR as nasty, and similar abilities from different creatures are all standard actions. Has anyone seen an errata released on this, or any questions asked regarding it?

EvilElitest
2008-08-30, 05:25 PM
Muhaha, you poor fools.

This is WotC we're talking about. So this is just the beggining. THey were very carefull with the first set of books, but as soon as you took the bait, they threw away the care out the windown and went wild again, a la 3.5

Don't worry. The druid, when it comes out, will probably be able to wildshape into this.

ah WotC, i love how we can come to expect your lack of quality to an absurd extreme
from
EE

firepup
2008-08-30, 05:26 PM
wildshaping into a swarm happened in little nicky.

snoopy13a
2008-08-30, 05:29 PM
Remember, needlefang drakes attack to eat, which means you don't have to outrun the drakes, you just have to outrun your slowest party member.



The punchline for one of my favorite jokes :smallbiggrin:

Edea
2008-08-30, 05:31 PM
I'm liking Swordguy's angle on this. Minor action pulldown doesn't sound quite right.

Saph
2008-08-30, 05:39 PM
Sounds to me like it's a misprint - change the pull-down ability to a standard action, and they aren't anywhere NEAR as nasty, and similar abilities from different creatures are all standard actions. Has anyone seen an errata released on this, or any questions asked regarding it?

First thing I did when I got back was check the errata. Couldn't find any mention of it.

What really makes them vicious isn't just the minor-action pulldown, it's the free attack against every PC who starts their turn next to it. It means each swarm gets an average of two attacks per round, and sometimes three.

WotC just seems to have vastly, vastly underestimated how nasty swarms are against low-level parties. The Bloodweb Spider Swarm is the scaled-up version, and it's almost as bad.

- Saph

quillbreaker
2008-08-30, 05:45 PM
I'm liking Swordguy's angle on this. Minor action pulldown doesn't sound quite right.

Seconded. It should be minor / encounter or recharge, or standard / at will. Encounter fits nicely for combat maneuvers which a target isn't likely to fall for more than once, and this is that kind of thing. A swarm of cats with teeth is only going to be able to knock you over so many times.

Any kind of offensive "minor action" ability should raise a *serious* question mark, especially with unlimited use. After all, the monster can convert all of it's actions to minor actions and do it three times.

Swordguy
2008-08-30, 05:50 PM
Seconded. It should be minor / encounter or recharge, or standard / at will. Encounter fits nicely for combat maneuvers which a target isn't likely to fall for more than once, and this is that kind of thing. A swarm of cats with teeth is only going to be able to knock you over so many times.

Any kind of offensive "minor action" ability should raise a *serious* question mark, especially with unlimited use. After all, the monster can convert all of it's actions to minor actions and do it three times.

That's what triggered my WTF? meter. It's one of their core game conceits that non-daily offensive actions are either minor/encounter, standard/encounter or standard/at-will or standard/encounter.

Oracle_Hunter
2008-08-30, 06:52 PM
So, I've done some more thinking about the swarm.

I think the problem here is that swarms are generally much tougher than they seem. You really need a Wizard to deal with them effectively, and that's not immediately obvious to new players. If you know that you need to nuke them with burst effects, then they become much easier; but if you don't, they are far tougher.

Their power selection is perfectly sensible, BTW. The designers wanted to make them act like tiny raptor swarms - they move, pounce, and then devour. This is extremely deadly for squishies (they have low Fort anyhow, and 2d10 damage is no picnic) and the aura means you don't want to stay close to them for long - if you shift every turn, then they'll only be able to get one takedown on you; or you can Tide of Iron/Thunderwave them back.

Having more than one swarm on the field at a time is probably asking for trouble. Those aura effects (only 1d10+4 for standing people) are nasty, and having two running around will probably overload a normal sized party's capabilities in no time at all. Also, allowing them to get surprise is going to be absolutely lethal unless you have very smart fighters.

Saph
2008-08-30, 07:06 PM
Their power selection is perfectly sensible, BTW. The designers wanted to make them act like tiny raptor swarms - they move, pounce, and then devour. This is extremely deadly for squishies (they have low Fort anyhow, and 2d10 damage is no picnic) and the aura means you don't want to stay close to them for long - if you shift every turn, then they'll only be able to get one takedown on you; or you can Tide of Iron/Thunderwave them back.

Problem is, Tide of Iron does nothing against them (well, apart from a bit of damage). If you look up the Swarm type in the back of the MM, they're immune to forced movement from melee/ranged attacks.

- Saph

Oracle_Hunter
2008-08-30, 07:21 PM
Problem is, Tide of Iron does nothing against them (well, apart from a bit of damage). If you look up the Swarm type in the back of the MM, they're immune to forced movement from melee/ranged attacks.

- Saph

Sonuvabitch.

That tears it - swarms are extremely nasty. I think you can still use them, but only as a super-Soldier; one that you can drop into the front row of the PCs to utterly occupy their attention for a few rounds.

They're immune to fear too. Nice.

Well, if you allow Alchemist Fire, these become much less nasty, but all swarms should probably be bumped up a level or two.

Anyhow: I don't think they're That Damn Crab, but they are a little underleveled. Make them LV 3 or 4 and I think they'll work out OK.

Dausuul
2008-08-30, 07:38 PM
The nastiest part of the needlefang drake swarm is what happens when you put two or more of them in an encounter. They have entirely too much synergy going on.

Starsinger
2008-08-30, 07:41 PM
Another really broken monster is the Ghaele of Winter. Minor action, Close burst 3(?) vs. Fort or the target is dazeduntil the end of the encounter. That's not so bad, I guess.

The bad part? This power recharges whenever the Ghaele hits atleast 2 enemies with another attack. Said other attack? Automatically hits, Close burst 3(?) too.

Edit: dazed, not weakened.

quillbreaker
2008-08-30, 08:43 PM
Another really broken monster is the Ghaele of Winter. Minor action, Close burst 3(?) vs. Fort or the target is dazeduntil the end of the encounter. That's not so bad, I guess.

The bad part? This power recharges whenever the Ghaele hits atleast 2 enemies with another attack. Said other attack? Automatically hits, Close burst 3(?) too.

Edit: dazed, not weakened.

Interesting thing is, her tactics state that she prefers to zap things with her rather unimpressive freezing ray than to ever close with anyone. She wants to fight at range and it seems that tactically, the wise thing to do is to let her.

Beleriphon
2008-08-30, 08:52 PM
Interesting thing is, her tactics state that she prefers to zap things with her rather unimpressive freezing ray than to ever close with anyone. She wants to fight at range and it seems that tactically, the wise thing to do is to let her.

Yeah, isn't it an artillery monster? The saves and HP don't really support moving into melee combat. It seems that a number of the powers that creatures have are for knocking a player senseless and then running away to resume their preferred tactics.

Chronos
2008-08-30, 10:02 PM
Having more than one swarm on the field at a time is probably asking for trouble.

The nastiest part of the needlefang drake swarm is what happens when you put two or more of them in an encounter.Isn't 4e supposed to have a label specifically for monsters like that, now?

Knaight
2008-08-30, 10:06 PM
Well your best shot is a wizard using the thunderwave at will then running, and even then if these guys pull you down your dead. A wizard with thunderwave(slightly above half of all wizards) is the only real option I can think of with a good chance, without blowing daily powers. Four of these guys against four wizards is not going to be pretty.

Dhavaer
2008-08-30, 10:07 PM
Isn't 4e supposed to have a label specifically for monsters like that, now?

There are the solo and elite keywords for monsters that count as five or two seperate monsters. There's nothing for monsters that count as one monster but shouldn't be grouped with other monsters of the same kind, though.

quillbreaker
2008-08-30, 10:12 PM
It should probably be an elite as presented, yes, for a handful of reasons. Thematically it doesn't really fit as an elite, so it should probably be toned down.

Grynning
2008-08-30, 10:14 PM
There are the solo and elite keywords for monsters that count as five or two seperate monsters. There's nothing for monsters that count as one monster but shouldn't be grouped with other monsters of the same kind, though.

Maybe we should make up a label for them and keep a thread going for reference.

MCerberus
2008-08-30, 10:15 PM
This isn't a new phenomenon for DnD. Just think Dire Crabs in 3.5.

Beleriphon
2008-08-30, 10:55 PM
Maybe we should make up a label for them and keep a thread going for reference.

A horde monster? Creatures that get better the more of them you use, either from a specific design standpoint, or just intentionally.

Frosty
2008-08-30, 11:02 PM
This isn't a new phenomenon for DnD. Just think Dire Crabs in 3.5.

We had Dire Crabs?

Worira
2008-08-30, 11:04 PM
http://resources.wizards.com/Magic/Cards/10E/EN/Card135236.jpg
Pointless text goes here.

Crow
2008-08-30, 11:10 PM
We had Dire Crabs?

Well, some of us did. From Mialee.

Grynning
2008-08-30, 11:12 PM
Props to both Worira and Crow, both posts were completely and equally awesome.

So, besides the needlefang swarm and the fire beetles, has anyone else encountered monsters that seemed really powerful in groups?

RTGoodman
2008-08-30, 11:13 PM
Relentless Rats

Ah, Relentless Rats - one of my favorite cards, but also one that I've never been able to get enough of to actually build a deck around them...


Yes, 4E has Elite and Solo monsters that are tougher than normal, but that's not what these are or should be. Making the swarm an Elite or Solo monster is a terrible idea, since Elites and Solos have 2x or 5x the normal HP, higher saves, a bonus to saving throws, and action points. From what it sounds like, those are the LAST things you want these guys to have.


We had Dire Crabs?

I don't know if they were Dire, but we did have (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fw/20040221a) some (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3214722&postcount=1) doozies (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3227211&postcount=186).

ghost_warlock
2008-08-30, 11:18 PM
So, besides the needlefang swarm and the fire beetles, has anyone else encountered monsters that seemed really powerful in groups?

Guard drakes can be a pain if they're near any other creature. They're not too bad if you use forced movement to seperate them but that's not a tactic you're necessarily even going to try if you're not aware that they do +6 damage per attack and are immune to fear if within 2 squares of an ally. This sort of thing only encourages players to read the Monster Manual and metagame so they don't get torn to shreds.

Swordguy
2008-08-30, 11:21 PM
Well, some of us did. From Mialee.

http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n294/wolffe42/FreeInternet.jpg

chiasaur11
2008-08-30, 11:34 PM
http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n294/wolffe42/FreeInternet.jpg

So, do we all get one, or...

Dhavaer
2008-08-30, 11:45 PM
A horde monster? Creatures that get better the more of them you use, either from a specific design standpoint, or just intentionally.

No, that makes it sound like they should be used in groups, rather than being crushingly overpowered in groups.

Would changing the damage dice of its attack to d6 instead of d10 make it more reasonable? That would bring it in line with the damage by level chart.

Frosty
2008-08-30, 11:52 PM
Wait. Mailee wasn't a virgin?

Krrth
2008-08-30, 11:57 PM
Charm person my friend, Charm person.

Dhavaer
2008-08-30, 11:58 PM
Wait. Mailee wasn't a virgin?

Canonically? No, she slept with Devis. Fanon-ically? Google 'Sigil Prep'.

Yakk
2008-08-31, 12:11 AM
Damage for a level 2 soldier should be about 1d6+3, not 1d10+4+1d10 if you are prone.

The damage output is too high for a level 2 monster, let alone a level 2 soldier.

Plus, it's aura means it gets free attacks.

Drop damage to 1d4+2, +1d4 if the target is prone. At 1d10 damage dice, it should be level 7 to 9+ ish (with the appropriate changes to attack rolls, AC, stats, etc).

A Drake that moves up to you, does a pull down, then attacks, gets two 2d4+2 attacks (for 14 damage if everything hits) per round on pulled down targets (including aura). That's still good damage, but not the current insane amount.

RTGoodman
2008-08-31, 12:17 AM
Canonically? No, she slept with Devis. Fanon-ically? Google 'Sigil Prep'.

And MAN was I horrified when I came across that in the book that I naively bought for about $0.25 at the used book store... :smalleek:

quillbreaker
2008-08-31, 01:06 AM
And MAN was I horrified when I came across that in the book that I naively bought for about $0.25 at the used book store... :smalleek:

They wrote books about those people? Gah.

Edea
2008-08-31, 01:07 AM
I thought I sensed a disturbance in the Force o.o ....

Tsotha-lanti
2008-08-31, 02:10 AM
Isn't 4e supposed to have a label specifically for monsters like that, now?

Yeah, this sounds like a Solo monster, frankly. Multiple attacks (in fact, against everyone near it), constantly re-usable special attack, high damage? Just give the bugger five times normal HP and call it a Solo.

An unfortunate amount of MM monsters don't seem to follow the monster creation guidelines in the DMG. Why does this one deal Medium Limited Damage for its level, for instance? Makes no sense - the attack is anything but limited. In fact, considering how many attacks it gets, it should be dealing Low Normal Damage (1d6+4 or so in this case).

Totally Guy
2008-08-31, 02:47 AM
I used this monster in my first session. I'd reflavoured it as a swarm of undead bees though and given it vunerability to radiant damage 5.

The one time I tried to use it's tactics efficiently (I play with dumb monsters unless the plot demands them smart) they flattened the Eladrin Warlord to low health and prone. Then it was her turn and to stand up provokes an opportunity attack so there was real debate of what could be done and it looked like there would be death saving throws by the next round. Then we remembered fey step and escaped the situation.

Eventually the paladin took them out by me misinterpreting the rules and wanting to get rid of them. I allowed him to half kill them with lay on hands as an "auto hit" as it was a swarm. So fudge fudge fudge.

mikethepoor
2008-08-31, 08:58 AM
Yes, 4E has Elite and Solo monsters that are tougher than normal, but that's not what these are or should be. Making the swarm an Elite or Solo monster is a terrible idea, since Elites and Solos have 2x or 5x the normal HP, higher saves, a bonus to saving throws, and action points. From what it sounds like, those are the LAST things you want these guys to have.

I think what was meant is to designate these monsters as elites without otherwise altering their stat block. Seriously though, these things are hideously overpowered.

Ent
2008-08-31, 09:42 AM
One of the designers must have an unreasonable fear of reptiles.

Compared to a Rat Swarm, something is wrong, unless the difference between "Skirmisher" and "Soldier" is "new character".

Pyroconstruct
2008-08-31, 09:44 AM
I had the same experience, those things are way, way too tough. They're much more of a threat than most level 3 or higher monsters.

Another fun one I found: Goblin Hexer, but only if you pair it with the right monster. That is, Young White Dragon. Have the Hexer ride on the Dragon, and the dragon flies (it can hover) over people and attacks them from above. The Hexer has a movable cloud AE that gives concealment that only protects it and its allies, and any enemies in the cloud take -4 to hit, AND it can redirect ranged attacks to the dragon. It's incredibly vicious, since the -4 to hit makes the dragon a pain to melee, and the Hexer can keep redirecting ranged attacks to the dragon (which still take the -2 to hit for concealment, -4 if he can fit the ranged characters into his hex cloud) while spamming a Fort attack that does decent damage and a save-ends blind to cripple ranged attacks. It's pretty vicious, because the Hexer and the Dragon cover each other's weaknesses perfectly.

Thrawn183
2008-08-31, 10:10 AM
I've found that things with the mob attack ability can get pretty powerful. Had 7 enemies adjacent to the tank which put all but one at +8 to attack in addition to their normal attack bonus. The other wasn't able to flank so it only got +6 but still. They went down fast but man did they manage to put out some damage for a round.

Draco Dracul
2008-08-31, 10:14 AM
Canonically? No, she slept with Devis. Fanon-ically? Google 'Sigil Prep'.

No Mailee is with Invisible Christifer Walken (http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=05B-Bw51-Tg)

Zeta Kai
2008-08-31, 10:38 AM
Eventually the paladin took them out by me misinterpreting the rules and wanting to get rid of them. I allowed him to half kill them with lay on hands as an "auto hit" as it was a swarm. So fudge fudge fudge.

The DM should never have to fudge the rules to allow the PCs to survive a level-appropriate encounter. An LAE consumed 25% of a party's resources in 3E, & my understanding of 4E is that it's the same. This is yet another example of poor game design in 4th Edition. If these are the leaders of our industry, then our industry is in trouble.

kjones
2008-08-31, 11:43 AM
The DM should never have to fudge the rules to allow the PCs to survive a level-appropriate encounter. An LAE consumed 25% of a party's resources in 3E, & my understanding of 4E is that it's the same. This is yet another example of poor game design in 4th Edition. If these are the leaders of our industry, then our industry is in trouble.

It's one poorly-balanced monster, probably due to the typo of making an attack a move action rather than a standard action. Not the end of the world.

Edit: Your new avatar is freaking me the **** out.

Knaight
2008-08-31, 11:56 AM
They are the leader of the industry because D&D was there first and they bought it. They could collapse, and it would be fine. GURPS and World of Darkness would grow to become the new giants, and lots of independent companies and games would grow considerably. Bad games wouldn't grow as much(at least I hope so. FATAL has no reason to grow, and the thought of people wanting to play that thing is depressing), and the industry would balance itself out pretty quickly.

Edea
2008-08-31, 01:56 PM
Compared to a Rat Swarm, something is wrong, unless the difference between "Skirmisher" and "Soldier" is "new character".

That made me laugh :smallbiggrin:.

It's odd...if the party were all Dragonborn, the swarm isn't quite as bad, even if in small groups. Obviously Scorching Burst will be spammed like crazy against these things (but you normally only have one Wizard). Hmm.

Knaight
2008-08-31, 03:45 PM
As I said, the only way you have much of a chance against 4 of these guys(with a 4 person party) is with 4 wizards, and ideally they will all have thunderwave. If they are all also dragonborn, then these guys stop being an issue.

Jerthanis
2008-08-31, 05:52 PM
Yeah, I ran an encounter of one needlefang swarm and two gray wolves against four test level 1 PCs, an encounter that should ping as sort of easy, and one member died and two people used their dailies to win. This was also seriously optimal conditions, where the Dwarf was able to get up front and tank the swarm and the wizard hit with Burning Hands and Thunderwave.

I wouldn't be surprised if just one of these guys could wipe a no dwarves, Magic Missile/Ray Of Frost/Chill Strike/Acid Arrow wizard (or no wizard) party with no support. Maybe I should test that next.

quillbreaker
2008-08-31, 09:14 PM
Regarding Fire Beetles:

It seems that once again the source of the problem is the designers for the Monster Manual are incapable of following their own guidelines.

Fire Beetle's Fire Spray:
Standard; Recharge {5,6}; Fire
Close Blast 3; +4 vs Reflex; 3d6 Fire Damage

A Brute's Attack vs Reflex is (Level + 1). An attack that affects multiple creatures has a -2 to hit. So the attack should actually be +0 vs Reflex, which just isn't as serious a threat. It will miss some characters all of the time, but even a shieldless klutz moron who doesn't get a reflex bonus off his class will be missed 50% of the time.

You could change the beetle's monster class from brute to raise the attack bonus, but that would substantially increase the chances of it getting killed before it reaches melee. A recharging area attack like that might be good skirmisher material.

TwystidMynd
2008-09-03, 09:16 AM
Guard drakes can be a pain if they're near any other creature. They're not too bad if you use forced movement to seperate them but that's not a tactic you're necessarily even going to try if you're not aware that they do +6 damage per attack and are immune to fear if within 2 squares of an ally. This sort of thing only encourages players to read the Monster Manual and metagame so they don't get torn to shreds.

You seem to be implying that reading the MM and metagaming are bad things. Hopefully I'm not misinterpreting you, but I'll respond as if that's what you mean.

I totally agree; I don't want my players reading the MM unless they're planning on DMing. I don't like meta-gaming in my game, either. When a player asks "Is this monster a minion?" I will usually turn it into a normal monster, just to spite them, as long as it doesn't unbalance the encounter (and then, afterwards, explain their folly and warn them not to do it again).

To get information about monsters' abilities, I remind players that Knowledge checks are free actions. For example, an "easy" (DC 10 at Heroic tier) successful Nature (Knowledge) check should be able to let someone in the party know that "These drakes are bred to defend creatures, and are more vicious when protecting someone!" Alternatively, if no one attempts a Knowledge check, I'll hint that "You notice that the husky-sized dragon seems to be more aggressive when in groups. It proves this by biting you for a huge X damage!" I find that using description clues players in on the monster's special abilities, without having to resort to letting them read the Monster Manual.


Then it was her turn and to stand up provokes an opportunity attack so there was real debate of what could be done and it looked like there would be death saving throws by the next round.

I don't have my rule-book with me atm, so I may be misremembering, but I don't think standing up from prone provokes in 4e. I think that was one of the things that we assumed carried over from 3.0, but one day we discovered that it doesn't... makes knock-down abilities less potent, but allows them to be more prevalent.


Needlefang Drakes are OP!
I agree with the general sentiment that NFD are way more powerful than their level suggests. I also agree that changing them to Elite/Solo monsters doesn't fit in well with the theme of the monsters, but I also agree that they need to be changed.
Personally, I'd probably knock their attack's damage down to the recommended amount for a soldier (someone mentioned it'd be 1d4+X) and probably changing the aura to only affect people within its space (since swarms have to be in the square of a creature to attack, I think?). And definitely change that Pull-down to a Standard, at the very least.

That'd mean that a Swarm would be able to still do the pull-down + damage (since the creature would begin its turn within the swarm's space), but not pull-down + damage + damage. Then, if something were still dumb enough to stay in its space, it could damage + damage, but hopefully the first round of damage would dissuade any such thoughts!

Blackfang108
2008-09-03, 09:37 AM
I don't have my rule-book with me atm, so I may be misremembering, but I don't think standing up from prone provokes in 4e. I think that was one of the things that we assumed carried over from 3.0, but one day we discovered that it doesn't... makes knock-down abilities less potent, but allows them to be more prevalent.

It doesn't.

Which ticked my friend off to no end when we realized it in our third session of the campaign, when his main character wandered off for some time and was replaced by a minotaur Fighter who specialized in knocking things prone.

Personally, I think that adventure would have gone a lot better if he had just used his bloody Challenge.

Oracle_Hunter
2008-09-03, 02:56 PM
It doesn't.

Which ticked my friend off to no end when we realized it in our third session of the campaign, when his main character wandered off for some time and was replaced by a minotaur Fighter who specialized in knocking things prone.

Personally, I think that adventure would have gone a lot better if he had just used his bloody Challenge.

Oh, an unreformed 3e Tripwhore :smalltongue:

I'm glad they got rid of the OA from getting back up - it made falling over the worst thing ever. Not only did you grant CA while on the ground, but you were at a penalty to hit, and if you stood up or otherwise moved, you would get hit by an OA.

Yep, now knocking people down is just a way to slow people down (no double move), and grant a quick CA for anyone who wants it.

Jerthanis
2008-09-03, 03:39 PM
I totally agree; I don't want my players reading the MM unless they're planning on DMing. I don't like meta-gaming in my game, either. When a player asks "Is this monster a minion?" I will usually turn it into a normal monster, just to spite them, as long as it doesn't unbalance the encounter (and then, afterwards, explain their folly and warn them not to do it again).


But what happens in a year and a half, three out of five of your gaming group have run a game, and one more is currently planning on running a game? I've always felt that having a DM mystique, an impassable curtain to prevent players from understanding what goes on behind "the screen" was insufficient to really prevent metagaming for the simple reason that a significant portion of gaming groups rotate DMing duties regularly.

Also, while I agree it's not cool for a player to plan actions around Minions so thoroughly, the lesson you're really teaching the players is to hit something once, with some sort of area damage or at-will to discover whether they're a minion or not. Also, they'll notice if you don't roll damage dice. If you roll separate damage dice just to maintain the illusion of them not being minions, you're going through a lot of trouble and slowing down a mechanic that was meant to speed up play just to keep players from realizing something they'll notice the first time their first attack connects.

Minions are tricky, they're dangerous, but fragile, but if they're too obvious they become priority targets and become far less dangerous in the end... but obfuscating that can be difficult without slowing down combat enough that you're better off not using minions at all. I dunno, just my position.



I agree with the general sentiment that NFD are way more powerful than their level suggests. I also agree that changing them to Elite/Solo monsters doesn't fit in well with the theme of the monsters, but I also agree that they need to be changed.
Personally, I'd probably knock their attack's damage down to the recommended amount for a soldier (someone mentioned it'd be 1d4+X) and probably changing the aura to only affect people within its space (since swarms have to be in the square of a creature to attack, I think?). And definitely change that Pull-down to a Standard, at the very least.

That'd mean that a Swarm would be able to still do the pull-down + damage (since the creature would begin its turn within the swarm's space), but not pull-down + damage + damage. Then, if something were still dumb enough to stay in its space, it could damage + damage, but hopefully the first round of damage would dissuade any such thoughts!

Swarms attack everything within one square of itself, so the monster itself takes up one square, but its area of influence is 9 squares.

Oracle_Hunter
2008-09-03, 03:50 PM
Minions are tricky, they're dangerous, but fragile, but if they're too obvious they become priority targets and become far less dangerous in the end... but obfuscating that can be difficult without slowing down combat enough that you're better off not using minions at all. I dunno, just my position.

Nah, rolling damage isn't a bad way for obfuscation. Few area attacks cause buckets-of-dice types of damage, and you only roll once for damage anyhow, per RAW. It really doesn't slow down combat that much.

Secondly, wouldn't it make sense for characters to hit things with their "regular attacks" first, and if that doesn't stop them, to try something heavier? Metagaming aside, it seems pretty reasonable to do this - though the knowledge that Minions exist an cause players to ignore "unwinnable scenarios" that you present them with, leading to TPKs.

To combat this metagaming, I'd be sure to describe overwhelming forces as such:
"you see a company of soldiers marching down the street - halberds at the ready and bearing scars that give testament to their experience."

instead of:
"you see a company of soldiers marching down the street - so fresh-faced that you doubt anyone except for the captain and his lieutenant had actually seen combat before."

Or you just let the PCs get TPK'd, but they are captured and able to escape instead of dying. One such encounter at low levels should make them more cautious about plunging heedlessly into combat. :smallbiggrin:

Yakk
2008-09-03, 04:52 PM
Re: minions.

I think minions are supposed to be really damn obvious. Minions are the sniveling generic Kobold wimps who aren't marked up as being special, the Orcs that where a challenge 5 years ago, and a boss 10 years ago, the freshly trained human militia with missing armor, etc etc.

If your players don't know that a creature is a minion just because you don't say "X is a minion", then ... the creature shouldn't be a minion.

Minions aren't supposed to be described as dangerous. Minions are not supposed to be be described in a way that confuses their minion status or not.

Now, you can have non-minions that don't look dangerous (ie, look Minion-esque), but that's a schztik of the creature who is making itself look harmless, not a feature of Minions.

Erk
2008-09-03, 05:38 PM
Re: minions.

I think minions are supposed to be really damn obvious. Minions are the sniveling generic Kobold wimps who aren't marked up as being special, the Orcs that where a challenge 5 years ago, and a boss 10 years ago, the freshly trained human militia with missing armor, etc etc.

If your players don't know that a creature is a minion just because you don't say "X is a minion", then ... the creature shouldn't be a minion.

Minions aren't supposed to be described as dangerous. Minions are not supposed to be be described in a way that confuses their minion status or not.

Now, you can have non-minions that don't look dangerous (ie, look Minion-esque), but that's a schztik of the creature who is making itself look harmless, not a feature of Minions.

I disagree 100%. I actually play minions as representing kobolds identical to the rest, who are unlucky enough to not withstand half a dozen blows before going down. Those poor shmultzes who go down to an arrow through the eye as they rush the field, or get disemboweled by the after a misstep.

After all, minions' damage and attack bonuses are not really that bad at all. They are just fragile! Portraying them as useless undermines the fact that they can, and do, take down PCs easily given a good chance.

I find my way enhances combat by reminding players that their weapons are actually deadly, and that the monsters who take a bunch of hits to go down are not doing so because everyone's swords are blunted or something. It also make a fight look a lot more threatening, because I don't describe 60% of the opposing force as drooling and wearing kettles for helmets.

Jerthanis
2008-09-03, 05:50 PM
Nah, rolling damage isn't a bad way for obfuscation. Few area attacks cause buckets-of-dice types of damage, and you only roll once for damage anyhow, per RAW. It really doesn't slow down combat that much.

Perhaps you're right. I still feel like the fact that pretty much anyone can take out one to three minions with an at-will, while even levelled non-minions can take several encounter powers just to bloody, while minions probably do quite a bit more than their overall experience point value in damage compared to normal monsters... it makes the success of obfuscation potentially a vital determiner in how difficult a battle involving them could be.

Oracle_Hunter
2008-09-03, 08:32 PM
Perhaps you're right. I still feel like the fact that pretty much anyone can take out one to three minions with an at-will, while even levelled non-minions can take several encounter powers just to bloody, while minions probably do quite a bit more than their overall experience point value in damage compared to normal monsters... it makes the success of obfuscation potentially a vital determiner in how difficult a battle involving them could be.

Oh, very true. No, I just use enough obfuscation to keep the players in the game (they like rolling damage, what can I say?) while using the mechanics to help me out. It's usually as easy for players to figure out who they should be using Encounters on as it is for them to pick out enemy casters - both of which are essential to know for intelligently planning an attack.