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ken-do-nim
2008-08-30, 09:02 PM
The following game session occurred about 4 years ago, and while I was plenty angry about it back then, I look back now and wonder if I had a legitimate beef with the DM or not. So, I throw it open to the court of public opinion to inform me. :smallbiggrin:

We were playing one of the Eberron modules. We were in Sharn, and had just entered a tavern to meet someone who apparently was in danger. We sat down at the table to meet her and then ... wham bam! A hit squad breaks into the bar gunning for her and the party and to make a long story short, a TPK ensues except for the wizard who managed to slip out the back door and run away. This upset me for the following reasons:

1. We were basically railroaded into this situation. It's not like the party stupidly entered the lair of a dragon before we were ready. It basically felt like the DM decided to take us out.

2. The DM admitted that the major opponent of the encounter was written as a warforged fighter 3, and since the DM detests dead levels ("fighter level 3 stupid"), he made him a fighter 2/barbarian 1 instead. Conveniently, this barbarian warforged hadn't yet used up his one rage that day and invoked it at the start of the fight. While the DM claimed that this foe's CR didn't change, we all know that the DM made the encounter way tougher by doing so.

3. The DM had been giving us half xp up to this point because he enjoys low level play and wanted it to last longer. We were level 2 when this encounter occurred - I suspect we may have been higher with normal xp.

4. At no time did the town guard intervene. The fight lasted many rounds. The new adventuring group we made later would go on to other Eberron modules where we went to very rough areas, yet in those places the town guard would come down on us in a heartbeat. But in the heart of Sharn, there was no town guard to be found.

Now in case you are curious, I didn't storm out of there or make any theatrics, I merely brought out another character I'd played up to 2nd already for the new party.

Flickerdart
2008-08-30, 09:15 PM
Maybe if the Wizard wasn't running away, you'd have won.

DMfromTheAbyss
2008-08-30, 09:27 PM
I'd say you have a bit of a legitimate beef. Not a serious, never talk to him again sort of beef, but it is the sort of thing you can bring up years later and feel a bit of "peevishness" about, possibly to pick on the DM in question.

On a scale of 1-10 I'd say this rates about a 3 on the WTHWTDMT (What The Heck Was The DM Thinking, a completely official fictitious scale).
I'd say this is something to deal with and maybe grumble to the DM about how fun that was... (using sarcasm to taste).

A 10 on this scale of course neccessitates leaving the game/room/location entirely, possibly knocking down furniture and not taking that kind of "s%#! and not talking to said person or people for the remainder of their lives. (and possibly informing law enforcement depending on situation)

a 1 being the DM doing something annoying but not harmful to the game.

a 5-8 depending on the availability of games and your personal ability to deal with it being the point at which you should just quit the game.

TheElfLord
2008-08-30, 09:31 PM
The following game session occurred about 4 years ago, and while I was plenty angry about it back then, I look back now and wonder if I had a legitimate beef with the DM or not. So, I throw it open to the court of public opinion to inform me. :smallbiggrin:

If the DM was deliberatly trying to kill you, than yes I think your anger was justified. If he was trying to emphasis the danger of his new story with a tough encounter that got out of hand, then not so much.




1. We were basically railroaded into this situation. It's not like the party stupidly entered the lair of a dragon before we were ready. It basically felt like the DM decided to take us out.

You did choose to go into the tavern to meet someone in danger. It's not out of the realm of possibility that you would be attacked during the meeting, in fact it's a common occurrence in the genre. I don't think that couldn't as railroading unless you consider any fight not initiated by the PCs to be railroading.


2. The DM admitted that the major opponent of the encounter was written as a warforged fighter 3, and since the DM detests dead levels ("fighter level 3 stupid"), he made him a fighter 2/barbarian 1 instead. Conveniently, this barbarian warforged hadn't yet used up his one rage that day and invoked it at the start of the fight. While the DM claimed that this foe's CR didn't change, we all know that the DM made the encounter way tougher by doing so.

Technically the CR didn't change. Three PC class levels adds 3 to the CR no matter what combination they are. Though you are correct in saying the alteration upped the difficulty of the encounter. A DM is not bound by the stats in a module. (unless the group agreed beforehand he would be) If he was trying to make it more dangerous and not deliberately induce a TPK I don't see a problem with this.


3. The DM had been giving us half xp up to this point because he enjoys low level play and wanted it to last longer. We were level 2 when this encounter occurred - I suspect we may have been higher with normal xp.

This is more a style issue. If he moved you into an area where the module expected you to be a higher level then it might be a problem. Although without knowing the full make up of the strike team its hard to tell how outmatched you were.

[QUOTE]4. At no time did the town guard intervene. The fight lasted many rounds. The new adventuring group we made later would go on to other Eberron modules where we went to very rough areas, yet in those places the town guard would come down on us in a heartbeat. But in the heart of Sharn, there was no town guard to be found.[QUOTE]

This does seem like a problematic inconsistency. Of course if someone complied about the guards not arriving the DM could have altered things in the future so they would arrive. It's hard to use someone's future DMing against them as it may be a correction to the previous problem. As to the guards taking a long time to show up, it depends how many rounds "many rounds" is. A round is only 6 seconds. Depending on the layout of the city I don't think it would be unreasonable for the guards to take a long time to respond. Unless a patrol was right outside the tavern I think 2 minutes (20 rounds) would be a very quick response time. If someone has to run to the guard headquarters or the city gates to find someone it could easily take 8-10 minutes (80-100 rounds) for guards to arrive.

If it takes 20 rounds for a near TPK to occur I would suggest that a TPK was not the intention and it was just a tough encounter that got a little out of hand.

Anyway, just some thoughts I had on the post.

CASTLEMIKE
2008-08-30, 09:34 PM
Edit: Why didn't the Wizard PC cast spells every round like Charm Person, Color Spray or Grease from memory or scrolls?

I'd be upset with the Wizard player because he should have been able to dominate in the encounter, very curious he ran away.

A party of level 2 PCs should have been able to handle a single Level 3 F-2, Barbarian -1 Warforged.

Which module? Shadows of the Last War? The encounter might have specified No Guards for X amount of time (Bribes or bad part of town.......)

Perhaps the town guard always showed because of this encounter in later games to prevent TPKs.

Iku Rex
2008-08-30, 09:43 PM
I know the module and the encounter you're talking about. You were wrong to be upset.

1. You chose to meet a woman in a tavern. You were ambushed. This is not railroading.

2. NPCs are generally weak for their CR. A level barbarian instead of fighter is not a big deal.

3. No, you were supposed to be level 2.

4. One round = 6 seconds. I doubt if the battle lasted a whole minute. It is completely unreasonable to expect guards to arrive that quickly.

Grynning
2008-08-30, 09:45 PM
Are you wrong to get upset? No...TPK's are usually pretty upsetting, unless they're intentional (on the part of the players) and/or really funny. It's as close as you come to "losing" at a non-competitive game like D&D.

Are you wrong to be upset with the DM? Maybe. Remember, he was probably pretty upset too. Very few DM's actually feel good about wiping the party, because they're attached to the story and characters just as much as the players, if not more so. He just made a mistake; I doubt he was trying to kill you all.

Now, if he was a mean about it and gave YOU crap for it, then he's just a jerk. That's different.

Knaight
2008-08-30, 09:57 PM
1. We were basically railroaded into this situation. It's not like the party stupidly entered the lair of a dragon before we were ready. It basically felt like the DM decided to take us out.

2. The DM admitted that the major opponent of the encounter was written as a warforged fighter 3, and since the DM detests dead levels ("fighter level 3 stupid"), he made him a fighter 2/barbarian 1 instead. Conveniently, this barbarian warforged hadn't yet used up his one rage that day and invoked it at the start of the fight. While the DM claimed that this foe's CR didn't change, we all know that the DM made the encounter way tougher by doing so.

3. The DM had been giving us half xp up to this point because he enjoys low level play and wanted it to last longer. We were level 2 when this encounter occurred - I suspect we may have been higher with normal xp.

4. At no time did the town guard intervene. The fight lasted many rounds. The new adventuring group we made later would go on to other Eberron modules where we went to very rough areas, yet in those places the town guard would come down on us in a heartbeat. But in the heart of Sharn, there was no town guard to be found.

Now in case you are curious, I didn't storm out of there or make any theatrics, I merely brought out another character I'd played up to 2nd already for the new party.
1. Sometimes your just unlucky.
2. That doesn't change the CR, despite being more optimized.
3. Yes, but so would the encounter have with some GMs.
4. This is off, unless the guards were bribed. Still in Sharn there would probably be enough honest guards to make this difficult, and killing them would turn the dishonest guards against the bribers, but it would probably take the guards a while to get there.

ken-do-nim
2008-08-30, 10:14 PM
I know the module and the encounter you're talking about. You were wrong to be upset.

1. You chose to meet a woman in a tavern. You were ambushed. This is not railroading.

2. NPCs are generally weak for their CR. A level barbarian instead of fighter is not a big deal.

3. No, you were supposed to be level 2.

4. One round = 6 seconds. I doubt if the battle lasted a whole minute. It is completely unreasonable to expect guards to arrive that quickly.

Yeah, I see what you're saying, and that's why I started to doubt as to whether I should have been upset or not. The one thing I should add is that in real life, the DM had broken up with a girlfriend the night before and so started the game session in a pissy mood and when the bodies started falling, seemed to be having a good time. At least as I recall. :smallsmile:

As to the wizard, she was out of bullets, so to speak, so I believe at that point she chose to escort the woman we were sent to meet out of there instead.

Ah, I'm remembering now the other part of it - and as you are familiar with the module you can tell me if it's in there. So these assassins showed up to kill the woman, not the party - presumably. Yet once the wizard and her slipped out the back door, the assassins did not give chase at all but rather stayed to kill the party. It is as if they came to kill the party instead of this woman. I thought at the time that this was highly unlikely, and that the DM was just enjoying killing pc's to make himself feel better after his breakup.

FoE
2008-08-30, 10:24 PM
After reading your last post ... yeah, the DM dropped a rock on you. Feel free to be pissed.

CASTLEMIKE
2008-08-30, 10:25 PM
As to the wizard, she was out of bullets, so to speak, so I believe at that point she chose to escort the woman we were sent to meet out of there instead.


If I had to do any finger pointing it would be at the Wizard who survived.

A good Wizard PC should have dominated this encounter. If you want to be upset be upset at the right person.

Most PC Wizards have Spell scrolls precisely for the reason that they might run out of bullets at 12.5 GP he should have had a half dozen to a dozen IMO.

Scribe Scroll is something most Wizards get at first level unless they trade it out for something else.

A level 3 Warforged Fighter - 2, Barbarian - 1 has a +0 Will Charm Person, Color Spray, Grease and Ray of Enfeeblement since they are immune to Sleep. Basically any spell each round not targeting the Fortitude save which should still drop the NPC if continued for a few rounds targeting Fortitude saves.

Worira
2008-08-30, 10:30 PM
The biggest problem, I think, is that the woman in question had a magic item that let her teleport out of the situation if it got rough. The DM should have had her use it rather than accepting an escort. Also, I'm not sure why the wizard was out of spells, you shouldn't have had any previous combats that day. It wasn't a particularly hard encounter, though, so I'm not sure why you had so much trouble.

monty
2008-08-30, 10:37 PM
Also, I'm not sure why the wizard was out of spells, you shouldn't have had any previous combats that day.

Well, if it lasted "many rounds" and they were only level 2, it's entirely possible the wizard just ran out of spells. A level 2 non-specialized wizard with 18 Int only has 7 spells per day, 4 of which are cantrips. And if he cast any "utility" spells earlier in the day, he'd have even fewer.

ken-do-nim
2008-08-30, 10:43 PM
Well, if it lasted "many rounds" and they were only level 2, it's entirely possible the wizard just ran out of spells. A level 2 non-specialized wizard with 18 Int only has 7 spells per day, 4 of which are cantrips. And if he cast any "utility" spells earlier in the day, he'd have even fewer.

Yup, non-specialized. The player of the wizard is hoping that down the line the character will be able to take the arch-mage prestige class, and so does not want to limit the character's schools.


The biggest problem, I think, is that the woman in question had a magic item that let her teleport out of the situation if it got rough. The DM should have had her use it rather than accepting an escort. Also, I'm not sure why the wizard was out of spells, you shouldn't have had any previous combats that day. It wasn't a particularly hard encounter, though, so I'm not sure why you had so much trouble.

The barbarian rage combat bonuses really took their toll. For what it's worth, we did actually manage to damage him enough so that the moment the rage ended, he died, but that was after the fight ended.

Oh, and not only did the enemy not go after the woman they were sent to get, but they stuck around to do coup-de-grace on the unconscious characters.

CASTLEMIKE
2008-08-30, 10:50 PM
There is a reason Wizards get Scribe Scroll as a class special.

Worira
2008-08-30, 10:50 PM
Yeah, the DM definitely shouldn't have changed the warforged's levels.

Helgraf
2008-08-30, 11:19 PM
There is a reason Wizards get Scribe Scroll as a class special.

Yeah, and if the party starts at 1st level (and they did) and hasn't earned much money (which they probably haven't), even the 12.5 gp cost and the time required to make the scroll may not have been available. It's a lot easier as a DM to keep your party from using Magic Item creation options at lower levels than at high.

CASTLEMIKE
2008-08-30, 11:43 PM
Yeah, and if the party starts at 1st level (and they did) and hasn't earned much money (which they probably haven't), even the 12.5 gp cost and the time required to make the scroll may not have been available. It's a lot easier as a DM to keep your party from using Magic Item creation options at lower levels than at high.

I have Shadows of the Last War the adventure that the DM was running and dug it out because of this thread.

It starts out in a tavern at L2 Not L1 on the first page when the party should have been up to full strength.

At the minimum the Wizard should have been able to cast 3 first level spells from memory.

DMG Character Wealth by level is 900 GP for a second level PC. A first level scroll only costs 12.5 GP and only takes a day to craft. The Wizard should have had spell scrolls. PCs are supposed to have 25% temporary disposable magic.

Point the blame where it belongs the Wizard PC. A poorly played Wizard resulted in the TPK.



Yeah, and if the party starts at 1st level (and they did) and hasn't earned much money (which they probably haven't), even the 12.5 gp cost and the time required to make the scroll may not have been available. It's a lot easier as a DM to keep your party from using Magic Item creation options at lower levels than at high.




3. The DM had been giving us half xp up to this point because he enjoys low level play and wanted it to last longer. We were level 2 when this encounter occurred - I suspect we may have been higher with normal xp.

FoE
2008-08-30, 11:48 PM
The Wizard might have been useless in that encounter, but it does seem like the DM was just out to stomp the PCs flat. If the woman they were out to kill had left, shouldn't the assassins have split as well? I think ken-do-nim has a valid point about the town guard intervening as well.

CASTLEMIKE
2008-08-30, 11:54 PM
The Wizard might have been useless in that encounter, but it does seem like the DM was just out to stomp the PCs flat. If the woman they were out to kill had left, shouldn't the assassins have split as well? I think ken-do-nim has a valid point about the town guard intervening as well.

It was a canned adventure Dragon House Intrigues. A L2 Party at 100% against a single level 3 Warforged Fighter and 4 Kobolds with 6 hit points. A round only takes 6 seconds. Sharn is huge and the police force isn't that large.

Grynning
2008-08-30, 11:56 PM
It's been noted multiple times that guards showing up fast enough to intervene is highly unlikely...rounds are short, most combats last less than a minute of "real" time.

The thing about the assassins going after the PCs instead of their intended target may be a valid point, but again, it's hard to say without having actually played in the encounter. The opponents may have only taken a few more shots at the party after the target fled, which is believable since assassins wouldn't want to turn their backs on people who are now trying to kill them, and possibly provoke AoO's by running past them to boot. Also, from the sound of it, the target leaving didn't happen until a bit later in the combat, when all the combatants were fully committed. Hell, they may not have even noticed her leave; a brawl with a bunch of adventurers can be pretty distracting.

CASTLEMIKE
2008-08-30, 11:59 PM
It's been noted multiple times that guards showing up fast enough to intervene is highly unlikely...rounds are short, most combats last less than a minute of "real" time.

The thing about the assassins going after the PCs instead of their intended target may be a valid point, but again, it's hard to say without having actually played in the encounter. The opponents may have only taken a few more shots at the party after the target fled, which is believable since assassins wouldn't want to turn their backs on people who are now trying to kill them, and possibly provoke AoO's by running past them to boot. Also, from the sound of it, the target leaving didn't happen until a bit later in the combat, when all the combatants were fully committed. Hell, they may not have even noticed her leave; a brawl with a bunch of adventurers can be pretty distracting.


Yeah, the DM definitely shouldn't have changed the warforged's levels.

I disagree the DM gave the party a break. The Level 3 Fighter was supposed to snipe at the adventurers inside the the tavern with missile fire (crossbow) from the doorway and he was supposed to fight to his death. Swapping out a level of F for Barbarian shouldn't have ended in a TPK against a balanced party.

Crummy Generalist Wizard - 2 PC. Sleep would have handled the four Kobolds. Wizards don't rock if you don't understand how the spellcasting mechanics work in game and you do not play the PC intelligently.

He was supposed to be a Warforged Zealot and Martyr shouting out clues to the adventurers. The four 6 HP Kobolds were supposed to fight to the death.

The L2 Party at 100% just starting the adventure was supposed to do a TPK on the BBEGs.

Talic
2008-08-31, 12:32 AM
Points 1-3: If the DM let you know of the danger, and the xp, then there's no issue.

While it's possible to explain away the dead level issue, and if that is a known habit of your GM, then ok, as well. However, it may be a good idea to inform him that you can't get any build that involves Fighter 4 without fighter 3.

Point 4, the inconsistency in the times of the fight, that's a legitimate gripe.

However, it's not outside the bounds of plausibility. Another emergency going on at the same time, or bribed officials, it can all explain delays.

Tallis
2008-08-31, 12:38 AM
Mike I have to ask: Have you had a bad experience with a wizard at some point? You seem very quick to blame everything on her.

Maybe the wizard could have done more, maybe not. We really don't know. It doesn't seem to me like the DM planned a TPK, but once things started in that direction he may have pushed it the rest of the way. It definitely seems like he didn't have to kill everybody. Once the party was down going after the woman would have been reasonable. The coup de grace was unnecessary, especially ifthe assassins weren't being paid to do it.

I'd say you have a right to be a little mad.

CASTLEMIKE
2008-08-31, 12:56 AM
Mike I have to ask: Have you had a bad experience with a wizard at some point? You seem very quick to blame everything on her.

Maybe the wizard could have done more, maybe not. We really don't know. It doesn't seem to me like the DM planned a TPK, but once things started in that direction he may have pushed it the rest of the way. It definitely seems like he didn't have to kill everybody. Once the party was down going after the woman would have been reasonable. The coup de grace was unnecessary, especially ifthe assassins weren't being paid to do it.

I'd say you have a right to be a little mad.

Not really the Sorcerer and the Wizard are two of my favorite classes at low levels when they are at the weakest.

Yes she should have been a dominating factor in the encounter using suggested wealth by level with 3 memorized first level spells.

Intelligent Core spell selection for a Generalist Wizard -2. Sleep would have taken care of the 4 Kobolds unfortuneately Warforged are immune to Sleep in ECS being an unusual type of living construct but that is one thing you factor into spell selection in ECS at low levels.

A scroll of Charm Person would normally have taken care of the Warforged. Grease or Color Spray. Lots of Good spells.

The party was going to meet a client for an adventure warned ahead of time they were in Terrible danger from a previous employer on a written scroll.

Why do you feel compelled to defend the Wizard PC?

I have the adventure if anyone was at fault and needs to be blamed it was the Wizard PC since the party was at 100% the opening scene after the previous adventure The Forgotten Forge.

It was supposed to be a BBEG TPK so the PCs couldn't ask the BBEG questions.

FoE
2008-08-31, 12:59 AM
It just doesn't seem like a TPK was necessary here. There were a number of ways where the DM could have pulled the PCs out of this apparent meatgrinder. The assassins could have pulled out of the fight after a few casualties, or the PCs could have gotten help. Yeah, Sharn's a big city, but it's also an IMAGINARY city; if the DM wants to have a few city guards nearby, then a few city guards are nearby. Also, the other bar patrons/staff could have intervened to help the PCs. They didn't start the fight, after all.

Point is, DM dropped a rock on them. I don't believe in coddling PCs, but unless the PCs are aware this is a meatgrinder, I try to avoid TPKs. It just breeds anger and resentment, as the OP clearly demonstrates.

CASTLEMIKE
2008-08-31, 01:03 AM
It just doesn't seem like a TPK was necessary here. There were a number of ways where the DM could have pulled the PCs out of this apparent meatgrinder. The assassins could have pulled out of the fight after a few casualties, or the PCs could have gotten help. Yeah, Sharn's a big city, but it's also an IMAGINARY city; if the DM wants to have a few city guards nearby, then a few city guards are nearby. Also, the other bar patrons/staff could have intervened to help the PCs. They didn't start the fight, after all.

Point is, DM dropped a rock on them. I don't believe in coddling PCs, but unless the PCs are aware this is a meatgrinder, I try to avoid TPKs. It just breeds anger and resentment, as the OP clearly demonstrates.

Maybe he was a new DM/GM the adventure reads the BBEGs are there to Kill the PCs they are Supposed to be Killed by the PCs. Any party with a half way capable Sorcerer or Wizard should have ruled the encounter.

The PCs get a Written Warning they are in Terrible Danger. Maybe the Poor Wizard PC actually Handicapped the Party by taking up space while being a non-productive drag on the party.

What Meatgrinder? L2 Party with a Wizard -2 at 100% against a CR3 Fighter with 4 Kobolds with 6 HP. The only reason he was a Warforged was so he could shout clues to the adventurers without being Slept and Killed leaving them Clueless.

Yahzi
2008-08-31, 01:07 AM
The coup de grace was unnecessary, especially ifthe assassins weren't being paid to do it.
If I were an assassin, and I knocked out an adventurer, I'd want to make sure he didn't wake up and come looking for revenge.

Assassins are evil. They kill people for fun. Including PCs.

TPKs are a necessary part of the game. Without the possibility, the game isn't as much fun. And without the occasional TPK, there is no possibility. If you're running one TPK every four years, your DM isn't trying hard enough. :smallbiggrin:

Edea
2008-08-31, 01:13 AM
This would be a let down @ OP, but nothing there's worth harboring for a long period of time. Pretty much, this is crap of the 'sit back and breathe for a minute' variety.

FoE
2008-08-31, 01:16 AM
Maybe he was a new DM/GM the adventure reads the BBEGs are there to Kill the PCs they are Supposed to be Killed by the PCs.

The PCs get a Written Warning they are in Terrible Danger. Maybe the Poor Wizard PC actually Handicapped the Party by taking up space but being non-productive.

I don't know what level of experience this GM was at. ken-do-nim can fill us in on that regard. As for a written warning, ken-do-nim hasn't mentioned anything about that; maybe this "inexperienced GM" skipped that part of the module.

Here's what I do know from ken-do-nim's comments:

1) The GM was in a foul mood. It lightened when he started killing off PCs.
2) The GM ran the encounter when one PC was at her weakest (the wizard was apparently out of spells), and ken-do-nim did feel like they were "railroaded" into the encounter.
3) The assassins ignored their primary objective when their target left the bar and focused on killing the PCs.
4) The PCs were in a public setting where it wouldn't have been unfeasible for them to get outside help.

All this points to the DM dropping a rock on the PCs, in my opinion.

Superglucose
2008-08-31, 01:20 AM
I have to say I more or less agree with CastleMike, though I think he's being a bit... aggressive in his posting.

I've seen a party of four at level... average was 2. We had one at 3, two and 2, and two at 1. We overcame a level 5 fighter and a level 5 wizard. We... almost died, but we'd done enough to them that they felt their lives were in danger (thanks to great rolls). A single lvl 3 multiclass fighter/barbarian? A few kobolds? Please. Kobolds will be a 1hko for your party fighters assuming they roll better than a 2 on a 2d6. A Raging barbarian absolutely collapses to any spell a Wizard should be taking, and a wizard who can't deal with immunity to sleep is a dead wizard.

If this isn't illustrated enough for you:

A Fig2/Bar1 character is not as powerful as 2 Fig3s. Ever. Even with Rage. What was your party made of, a wizard with int 9 and a bunch of bards?

You guys really had only yourselves to blame, but maybe I'm biased because my groups have always been a struggle to survive. Your challenge here sounded tame by comparison.

CASTLEMIKE
2008-08-31, 01:23 AM
I don't know what level of experience this GM was at. ken-do-nim can fill us in on that regard. But I do know the following his comments:

1) The GM was in a foul mood. It lightened when he started killing off PCs.

2) The GM ran the encounter when one PC was at her weakest (the wizard was out of spells), and ken-do-nim did feel like they were "railroaded" into the encounter.

3) The assassins ignored their primary objective when their target left the bar and focused on killing the PCs.

4) The PCs were in a public setting where it wouldn't have been unfeasible for them to get outside help.

All this points to the DM dropping a rock on the PCs, in my opinion.

1) That is speculation.

2) I have the adventure as I have posted previously the adventurers start out at 100%. Minimum of 3 first level spells for a Generalist Wizard -2 and that same Wizard having No Spell Scrolls is indicative of a Poor Wizard Player.

3) The primary objective was to Kill the Party I have the adventure page 6 Shadows of the Last War the Warforged and the Kobold Mercenaries fight to the Death.

4) We are talking less than 10 rounds under a minute, getting outside help in the Eberron Campaign setting would be unusual like most settings.

IMO you are mistaken it is a canned adventure which should be an easy encounter for most halfway capable Level 2 adventuring parties with a Wizard -2.



I have to say I more or less agree with CastleMike, though I think he's being a bit... aggressive in his posting.


Thanks and Noted. I have been in to many campaigns were DMs were actively trying to kill our PCs Trolls and Purple Worms at first level.

IMO if the party had someone more skilled playing the Wizard - 2 the encounter would have resulted in a TPK for the BBEGs.

Grynning
2008-08-31, 01:31 AM
I don't think that the party is to blame here, but neither is the DM. Sometimes encounters just go badly, and the party dies. I know a lot of DM's fudge NPC die rolls and modify bad guy tactics to prevent TPK's if the players aren't doing so well, but some don't, or haven't thought of doing so (and it sounds like the DM has learned and began taking measures to prevent party deaths since the incident).

I still find it interesting that a lot of posters here think the DM is supposed to try and kill the whole party though. I wouldn't want to play in a game like that. I accept the risk of character death (we're kicking down doors, killing monsters and taking their stuff after all, it's not really a safe profession) but I don't think the DM should be out to get the players. It's not a competition.

chiasaur11
2008-08-31, 01:32 AM
1) That is speculation.

2) I have the adventure as I have posted previously the adventurers start out at 100%. Minimum of 3 first level spells for a Generalist Wizard -2 and that same Wizard having No Spell Scrolls is indicative of a Poor Wizard Player.

3) The primary objective was to Kill the Party I have the adventure page 6 Shadows of the Last War the Warforged and the Kobold Mercenaries fight to the Death.

4) We are talking less than 10 rounds under a minute, getting outside help in the Eberron Campaign setting would be unusual like most settings.

You are mistaken it is a canned adventure. It is an easy encounter for a halfway capable Level 2 adventuring party with a Wizard -2.




I have been in to many campaigns were DMs were actively trying to kill our PCs Trolls and Purple Worms at first level.

IMO if the party had someone more skilled playing the Wizard - 2 the encounter would have resulted in a TPK for the BBEGs.

Well, the question here is did the DM allow the party full health.

He messed with other things...

Of course, remembering this for anything beyond good natured ribbing for more than a month, no matter the circumstances, is kinda overkill.

FoE
2008-08-31, 01:34 AM
1) That is speculation.

No, that is what ken-do-nim said.


The one thing I should add is that in real life, the DM had broken up with a girlfriend the night before and so started the game session in a pissy mood and when the bodies started falling, seemed to be having a good time. At least as I recall.


I have the adventure as I have posted previously the adventurers start out at 100%. Minimum of 3 first level spells for a Generalist Wizard -2 and that same Wizard having No Spell Scrolls is indicative of a Poor Wizard Player.

Maybe. Without knowing what encounters went on beforehand, it's hard to say. He did say the wizard was "out of bullets," which I take to mean is "out of spells." That implies they had some fights beforehand.


3) The primary objective was to Kill the Party I have the adventure page 6 Shadows of the Last War the Warforged and the Kobold Mercenaries fight to the Death.

Sure, the objective of nearly EVERY monster is to kill the PCs. But that shouldn't be your objective as a GM.


4) We are talking less than 10 rounds under a minute, getting outside help in the Eberron Campaign setting would be unusual like most settings.

Unlikely, but hardly impossible. We are talking about imaginary worlds here. There are non-corrupt guards in Sharn; a few of them could have been walking by the bar. Or there could have been a half dozen paladins sitting in that bar at the time of the attack. Heck, he could have had angels fly through the windows and strike down all the assassins with flaming swords.

It would be a blatant deus ex machina and bad storytelling, but it's not as thought the fictional D&D gods are going to hold him accountable, and it's certainly better than killing off your players because you're in a foul mood.


I still find it interesting that a lot of posters here think the DM is supposed to try and kill the whole party though. I wouldn't want to play in a game like that. I accept the risk of character death (we're kicking down doors, killing monsters and taking their stuff after all, it's not really a safe profession) but I don't think the DM should be out to get the players. It's not a competition.

QFT, man.

CASTLEMIKE
2008-08-31, 01:39 AM
I still find it interesting that a lot of posters here think the DM is supposed to try and kill the whole party though. I wouldn't want to play in a game like that. I accept the risk of character death (we're kicking down doors, killing monsters and taking their stuff after all, it's not really a safe profession) but I don't think the DM should be out to get the players. It's not a competition.

IMO this should have been a cake walk encounter for the party. BBEG screams out some clues and dies. Fudging a few rolls is one thing. Maybe the DM should have coddled the party more but it sounds like the party Wizard -2 was taking up space in the party but being ineffective and a drag on the party.

OP never stated the party size to my knowledge. Four man party with one man who doesn't contribute or is ineffective does raise the encounter difficulty particularly a Wizard without useful spells for the encounter. The Wizard wasn't doing his job and amazingly the Wizard was the only one who survived.


No, that is what ken-do-nim said.


Sure but it is still speculation. It was four years ago. He is a little hazy on the details and he doesn't read minds. Maybe DMing the game was the bright spot of his day hanging out with his buddies.

Talic
2008-08-31, 01:42 AM
They're not saying the DM should try to kill the party.

However, the creatures he controls definately should be, and he should play them accordingly.

Superglucose
2008-08-31, 01:43 AM
Maybe. Without knowing what encounters went on beforehand, it's hard to say. He did say the wizard was "out of bullets," which I take to mean is "out of spells." That implies they had some fights before hand.


Yes, but why and how does a wizard run out of spells? Even going Nova, a spell with 25% WBL reserved for 12.5 GP scrolls (what other disposable magic will a wizard have? Wands, which are basically the same thing) is 18 scrolls, and he has 3 memorized. Are you telling me that the wizard watched 21 spell slots disappear, and that it's somehow not "his fault"? When I played a wizard, I NEVER wrote scrolls because I hated giving up exp. Even still, I almost NEVER ended the dungeon without holding on to at least one spell in case something bad was going to happen.

The TPK sounds like a bad case of "PCs phailing" rather than "DM being an ass." Maybe the DM was in a bad mood, maybe "this that and the other." When my character was almost executed for a crime she didn't commit I wasn't complaining that my DM was out to get me. I was working on a solution that would get me not executed.

I have nothing wrong with a DM saying, "Hmm... fighter 3 is too easy a build, I want it to be fighter2/barbarian 1 instead!" My DM gives us encounters that are slightly beyond us if you look at them on paper all the time. I've lost 1 character to death so far, out of a possible ten that I have played.

CASTLEMIKE
2008-08-31, 01:48 AM
They're not saying the DM should try to kill the party.

However, the creatures he controls definately should be, and he should play them accordingly.

IMO the DM/GM should fudge a few rolls in the partie's favor from time to time but the dice roll the way they do and sometimes the PCs do the wrong thing. IMO the potential chance of a TPK is one of the things that makes the game fun even if occassionally your PC dies. Usually not that big of a deal since you can either have him raised or resurrected or make a new one.

FoE
2008-08-31, 01:53 AM
Sure, but it is still speculation. It was four years ago. He is a little hazy on the details and he doesn't read minds. Maybe DMing the game was the bright spot of his day hanging out with his buddies.

It doesn't take a mind-reader to figure out when someone's in a bad mood, especially when you know the cause. And ken-do-nim clearly does remember the DM's mood, since the details of this game are still irritating him.


Are you telling me that the wizard watched 21 spell slots disappear, and that it's somehow not "his fault"? When I played a wizard, I NEVER wrote scrolls because I hated giving up exp. Even still, I almost NEVER ended the dungeon without holding on to at least one spell in case something bad was going to happen.

I don't know, super. Why would any party send their precious wizard to escort the hostage out of the battle if she still could have been useful in combat? Either ken-do-nim's party was incredibly stupid, or she really was out of ammunition.

Something's clearly wrong here. CASTLEMIKE has commented a thousand times that the encounter should have been a cakewalk, so it sounds like they were already at a disadvantage.

And, as I pointed out myself a few times now, it wouldn't have been difficult for the DM to bail the party out.


IMO the potential chance of a TPK is one of the things that makes the game fun even if occassionally your PC dies. Usually not that big of a deal since you can either have him raised or resurrected or make a new one.

Do we have a different definition of TPK? Mine is, "Everybody's dead, campaign's over, everybody start rolling up new characters." Nobody's around to resurrect anybody else, unless they get raised by lackeys.

Stormthorn
2008-08-31, 01:58 AM
There is a reason Wizards get Scribe Scroll as a class special.

The above is a random example of mikes speach to illustrate a point. doing this is annoying as hell.

Ok, the way i see it the argument is split three ways. One way, that Mike is proposing ((sorry to single you out, but you draw a lot of attention to yourself)) is the "Dont be angry because you were dumbasses for getting killed a good wizard could take that single-handed" argument.

The other two are "The DM made a mistake" and "The DM killed you because his girlfriend dumped him".

I subscribe personaly to the last one but i urge all characters to carry explosives.
Why?
If a character pulls out a bomb (or exploding potion or whatever) in the middle of the brawl and says "Drop your weapons or we all die right now!" it will either snap the DM back into logical action that will filter down to his NOC's or it will prove his asshatness for future referance.


...unless they get raised by lackeys
Which is why my bard is kitting himself up for Leadership.
And to take a level in barbarian so i can run twice as fast as the parties dwarves when it comes to getting away.

CASTLEMIKE
2008-08-31, 01:58 AM
It doesn't take a mind-reader to figure out when someone's in a bad mood. And ken-do-nim clearly does remember, since it's still irritating him.



I don't know, super. Why would any party send their precious wizard to escort the hostage out of the battle if she still could have been useful in combat? Either ken-do-nim's party was incredibly stupid, or she really was out of ammunition.

Something's clearly wrong here. CASTLEMIKE has commented a thousand times that the encounter should have been a cakewalk, so it sounds like they were already at a disadvantage.

And, as I pointed out myself a few times now, it wouldn't have been difficult for the DM to bail the party out.

Sure the DM could have been the bad guy but it's Act 1 Opening Scene in the adventure. He wasn't in a bad enough mood to cancel the game. To my knowledge the OP hasn't said they started out the adventure below 100% which should have meant ready to go for four or five encounters.

Based on the OP and the Shadows of the Last War Adventure it sounds like the Wizard - 2 took out the party in a TPK because the PC did not have any useful spells for handling an encounter with 4 Kobolds with 6 HP and a single CR3 Fighter when they should have been at 100% starting the adventure in Act 1.


The above is a random example of mikes speach to illustrate a point. doing this is annoying as hell.

Ok, the way i see it the argument is split three ways. One way, that Mike is proposing ((sorry to single you out, but you draw a lot of attention to yourself)) is the "Dont be angry because you were dumbasses for getting killed a good wizard could take that single-handed" argument.


:smile: My point is that if the OP feels a need to be angry at someone it should be directed at the right person the Wizard player in this case not the DM.


Yup, non-specialized. The player of the wizard is hoping that down the line the character will be able to take the arch-mage prestige class, and so does not want to limit the character's schools.

Oh, and not only did the enemy not go after the woman they were sent to get, but they stuck around to do coup-de-grace on the unconscious characters.

It's Act 1 Scene 1 in Shadows of the Last War. There are no encounters other than talking with a House Sivis Gnome before the PCs go to the bar.

OP did the party start out at 100% or not?

If you did IMO the TPK is due to the Party Wizard having a poor spell selection for the encounter and insufficient spell scrolls to assist the other party members.

Tallis
2008-08-31, 02:13 AM
If I were an assassin, and I knocked out an adventurer, I'd want to make sure he didn't wake up and come looking for revenge.

Assassins are evil. They kill people for fun. Including PCs.

TPKs are a necessary part of the game. Without the possibility, the game isn't as much fun. And without the occasional TPK, there is no possibility. If you're running one TPK every four years, your DM isn't trying hard enough. :smallbiggrin:

Assassins are evil, but they also tend to be mercenary. If they leave the party alive they might be able to get whoever sent them after the woman to pay them to kill the meddling adventurers too. After all, they already proved they can beatthem in a fight. Sure some assassins might kill purely for pleasure, but not all of them have to.

Also, I agree that there should be a possibility of TPK, but TPK in an encounter that is supposed to be a minor battle is unnecessary. Many people say let the dice fall as they may, but it is not the only way of playing. Also the DM altered the encounter, he should have been ready to fix it if it didn't work out as planned. If onePC died that would be acceptable, but a TPK in a throw away encounter is pointless IMO.

I don't feel like there should be a quota for TPKs. Once every 4 years is fine and it's not something a good DM (in my opinion) should be actively trying for.

@Mike: I do see your point about the wizard, but there may have been factors we don't know about. You are basing your assumptions on what's written in the books and the adventure. We've already established that the DM altered the encounter and the xp the PCs were getting. It's possible that they did not have standard WBL and that the DM kept them busy enough that the wizard didn't have time to scribe scrolls.
It's also possible that the NPCs got lucky on their saves. Maybe the player was relatively new to Eberron and didn't realize that warforged are immune to sleep.
What about the other players? 3 level 2 adventurers vs 4 kobolds and a level 3 NPC could win in most cases. There may have been some bad or lucky dice rolling involved.
At that level the rage abilityof a barbarian could make a significant difference in an encounter. Also, I would assume that the warforged would enter melee combat when raging, probably dealing out fairly heavy damage and being a reasonable first target for the PCs able to soak up lots of damage. As you said, in the encounter as written he was supposed to be a fighter3 sniping from outside with a crossbow. He would likely hit less often since the PCs could either dive under cover or be in melee with the kobolds, giving him a chance to hit them. He would probably also do less damage on a hit since he would have no strength bonus. The kobolds would become the most likely first targets, going down fairly quickly and reducing the damage dealing ability of the NPCs as a group.
As I said, I doubt that the DMs original intent was a TPK, but his desicions would have altered tyhe way the encounter played and he doesn't seem to have made any effort to fix his mistake. He may have even enjoyed it, which in this case is wrong. The DM should enjoy the game, but not at the expense of the players.

So yes, the wizard may have made mistakes, but I don't think you can reasonably place all the blame on her.

CASTLEMIKE
2008-08-31, 02:46 AM
Also, I agree that there should be a possibility of TPK, but TPK in an encounter that is supposed to be a minor battle is unnecessary. Many people say let the dice fall as they may, but it is not the only way of playing. Also the DM altered the encounter, he should have been ready to fix it if it didn't work out as planned. If onePC died that would be acceptable, but a TPK in a throw away encounter is pointless IMO.

I don't feel like there should be a quota for TPKs. Once every 4 years is fine and it's not something a good DM (in my opinion) should be actively trying for.

@Mike: I do see your point about the wizard, but there may have been factors we don't know about. You are basing your assumptions on what's written in the books and the adventure. We've already established that the DM altered the encounter and the xp the PCs were getting. It's possible that they did not have standard WBL and that the DM kept them busy enough that the wizard didn't have time to scribe scrolls.
It's also possible that the NPCs got lucky on their saves. Maybe the player was relatively new to Eberron and didn't realize that warforged are immune to sleep.
What about the other players? 3 level 2 adventurers vs 4 kobolds and a level 3 NPC could win in most cases. There may have been some bad or lucky dice rolling involved.
At that level the rage abilityof a barbarian could make a significant difference in an encounter. Also, I would assume that the warforged would enter melee combat when raging, probably dealing out fairly heavy damage and being a reasonable first target for the PCs able to soak up lots of damage. As you said, in the encounter as written he was supposed to be a fighter3 sniping from outside with a crossbow. He would likely hit less often since the PCs could either dive under cover or be in melee with the kobolds, giving him a chance to hit them. He would probably also do less damage on a hit since he would have no strength bonus. The kobolds would become the most likely first targets, going down fairly quickly and reducing the damage dealing ability of the NPCs as a group.

So yes, the wizard may have made mistakes, but I don't think you can reasonably place all the blame on her.

Absolutely I have a few reasonable assumptions and acknowledge there could be other factors but until the OP says differently it is playing out like the adventure.

Sure the DM altered the encounter slightly a CR 3 Warforged Fighter -3 to a CR 3 Warforged F-2 Barbarian -1. The DM didn't have the Warforged snipe at the unarmored wizard from the doorway like most DMs trying to kill party members would do instead he came in attacking. IMO that was cutting the party slack.

The party knew they were in danger. Written scroll and the House Sivis Gnome describing the Kobolds.

Act 1 Scene 1 starting the adventure. The default in most adventures particularly canned ones is that the party starts at 100% full strength until the OP posts differently that is a reasonable assumption.

IMO it is unreasonable to presume the DM forbade the Wizard PC from preparing spell scrolls or didn't allow the PC any downtime before the adventure to Scribe Scrolls unless the OP states that was the case. In this situation the PC Wizard is clearly at fault because she didn't perform her job and carry her weight in the party.

It is a fact that there are poor unprepared Wizard players in game who enjoy playing Wizards unfortunately sometimes they are the exact opposite of the Uber Prepared Wizards. This thread seems like a classic case the party would have been better off with almost any other PC than a Wizard without spells.

icefractal
2008-08-31, 02:59 AM
Wow, you seem to be assuming a lot, based off some very sparse info. So according to you, the Wizard is the sole difference between a TPK and a win - I guess a party without a Wizard is just plain doomed then? Let's look at some of your points:

1) The Wizard casting Charm Person, Sleep, Color Spray, and Grease prepared would have won the fight. Oh wait, Charm person doesn't even work on Warforged. Grease would only help if the party has a Rogue, Color Spray is potent but not a guaranteed win, and Sleep could easily fizzle if, say, a 2nd level foe was next to the Warforged. And sometimes enemies do make their Will saves, whether the odds are in your favor or not.

2) The Wizard would have had those prepared. In town? When the party may not be expecting a fight? Isn't it extremely possible that the Wizard would have prepared more investigation-oriented spells in that situation?

3) The Wizard would have lots of scrolls. Ok, let me raise a point - at low level, the DMG wealth-by-level doesn't mean crap. Even missing one treasure or having to spend slightly more on supplies could leave you significantly off - and a DM that like to give reduced XP may also give reduced treasure. And that's not to mention the potential lack of downtime to do all that scribing.

4) The Wizard fled in the middle of combat. All we know is that the Wizard escaped. Quite possibly the fight was effectively over by that point, the Wizard out of spells, and the foes in the process of finishing any survivors off.

5) It's entirely the Wizard's responsibility to win every fight. Where the hell does this come from? Why not blame the Cleric for not preventing everyone from dying, or the Rogue for not seeing the ambush coming, or the Fighter for not slaying the enemies fast enough (which is quite possible at low level).

Seriously, you're basing a whole lot of extrapolation off of very little fact, some kind of anti/pro-Wizard bias, and an inexplicable desire to defend some DM you don't know and have very little information about (unless, of course, you are that DM).

CASTLEMIKE
2008-08-31, 04:55 AM
Wow, you seem to be assuming a lot, based off some very sparse info. So according to you, the Wizard is the sole difference between a TPK and a win - I guess a party without a Wizard is just plain doomed then? Let's look at some of your points:

1) The Wizard casting Charm Person, Sleep, Color Spray, and Grease prepared would have won the fight. Oh wait, Charm person doesn't even work on Warforged. Grease would only help if the party has a Rogue, Color Spray is potent but not a guaranteed win, and Sleep could easily fizzle if, say, a 2nd level foe was next to the Warforged. And sometimes enemies do make their Will saves, whether the odds are in your favor or not.

2) The Wizard would have had those prepared. In town? When the party may not be expecting a fight? Isn't it extremely possible that the Wizard would have prepared more investigation-oriented spells in that situation?

3) The Wizard would have lots of scrolls. Ok, let me raise a point - at low level, the DMG wealth-by-level doesn't mean crap. Even missing one treasure or having to spend slightly more on supplies could leave you significantly off - and a DM that like to give reduced XP may also give reduced treasure. And that's not to mention the potential lack of downtime to do all that scribing.

4) The Wizard fled in the middle of combat. All we know is that the Wizard escaped. Quite possibly the fight was effectively over by that point, the Wizard out of spells, and the foes in the process of finishing any survivors off.

5) It's entirely the Wizard's responsibility to win every fight. Where the hell does this come from? Why not blame the Cleric for not preventing everyone from dying, or the Rogue for not seeing the ambush coming, or the Fighter for not slaying the enemies fast enough (which is quite possible at low level).

Seriously, you're basing a whole lot of extrapolation off of very little fact, some kind of anti/pro-Wizard bias, and an inexplicable desire to defend some DM you don't know and have very little information about (unless, of course, you are that DM).

Wow. I have the information the OP provided that the party included a Generalist Wizard - 2 and the WOTC adventure.

Why does everyone automatically assume the Wizard PC could not be at fault and it is the DM's fault for the TPK?

1) Warforged are immune to Sleep, a Warforged is not immune to mind-affecting spells and abilities ECS page 23. Missed the note saying they were Immune to Charm Person.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/charmPerson.htm

2) Maybe in your campaigns in the start of an adventure the Wizards don't have any spells or scrolls prepared but that is not the standard in most games. All the other PCs had adventuring gear didn't see any posts where the PCs were fighting without equipment. Sounds like poor planning on the part of the Wizard without further input from the OP.

3) The default is 900 GP unless the OP says differently in a canned adventure. First level spell scrolls only cost 12.5 GP and suggested wealth by level is 900 GP. I still haven't seen a post by the OP that the PCs didn't have any adventuring gear or the Wizard was prohibited from preparing for the adventure so the Wizard should have had scrolls.

Based on the Adventure the Warforged had a base Constitution of 14 and a single level of Barbarian which normally means he could Rage for 7 rounds.

4) TPK except for the Generalist Wizard - 2 who should have had 3 first level spells starting an adventure in Act 1 Scent 1 of Shadows of the Last War unless the OP says differently.

5) Are you saying that the party composition was a F, Cl, Rogue and Wizard?

Are you saying an average party of PC adventurers comprising a F -2, Cl - 2, Bard or Rogue -2 and Sorcerer or Wizard -2 at 100% should not normally (Sometimes the dice roll funny but that isn't what the OP said happened) be able to deal with a CR3 Fighter accompanied by four Kobolds with 6 Hit Points using the Suggested Wealth by Level Default?

Regarding you last point an awful lot of posters doing exactly the same for the Party along with defending the Wizard PC while knowing even less than I do having a copy of the adventure.

Saph
2008-08-31, 08:43 AM
To answer the OP: no, I don't think you were wrong to get upset about this. It sounds to me like the DM was hoping for some PC deaths. DMs have a lot of ways to (subtly or unsubtly) load an encounter against the PCs, and it sounds in this case as though that was what he was doing.

Mike, the "it's the wizard's fault" argument is inaccurate and completely unfair. You might as well say it's the Fighter's fault for not being a Warblade 1/Barbarian 1 and not killing the enemy Warforged in round 1 with a Raging Two-Handed-Greatsword Punishing Stance Steely Strike. Most players don't use characters to their full potential; do you shout at them at the table if they don't? For all you know the wizard's player was a casual player or a newbie.

- Saph

only1doug
2008-08-31, 09:13 AM
I Know who is to blame here:


its the Dice: they conspired against you



More seriously: the OP had stated that they were mid-campaign, its possible that they entered the bar with the wizard already low on spells and before they could re-stock consumables used in previous adventures.
If the GM was in a bad mood he might have decided to get right in to the next adventure without wasting time on shopping or resting (which could be why the OP felt they had been railroaded in to the Pub)

IMO then if my speculation above is correct then yes the OP had good reason to feel upset.
Alternatively if as Castlemike says the group were fresh then it wasn't the GM's fault just bad luck or bad tactics.

I don't know, and its possible the OP won't remember enough details of events that occurred 4 years ago for us to ever know.

PS: castlemike, you seem determined for this to be the wizards fault and unwilling to consider that maybe the GM didn't give them a fair chance. Until the OP says either way, wouldn't it be fair to grant an equal chance of the GM being in error?

Mushroom Ninja
2008-08-31, 09:13 AM
Mike, the "it's the wizard's fault" argument is inaccurate and completely unfair. You might as well say it's the Fighter's fault for not being a Warblade 1/Barbarian 1 and not killing the enemy Warforged in round 1 with a Raging Two-Handed-Greatsword Punishing Stance Steely Strike. Most players don't use characters to their full potential; do you shout at them at the table if they don't? For all you know the wizard's player was a casual player or a newbie.

- Saph

Yeah, I kind of thought you were a little harsh on the wizard. I too (not that long ago) ran wizards that sucked. Not everyone has read TLN's guide. (yet :smallwink:)

Tallis
2008-08-31, 09:47 AM
Why does everyone automatically assume the Wizard PC could not be at fault and it is the DM's fault for the TPK?

I, for one, am not saying that she couldn't be at fault, just that it's unfair to assume that she's solely at fault. There were likely other factors in the player's defeat. Saying that the party lost only because the wizard messed up is insulting to the whole party IMO. By that logic if lucky die rolls had killed the wizard in the first round, which is very possible at that level , then the party could not have won. You are entitled to your opinion on this, but I disagree with you.


1) Warforged are immune to Sleep, a Warforged is not immune to mind-affecting spells and abilities ECS page 23. Missed the note saying they were Immune to Charm Person.

The wizard's player may have made the same mistake you did here. It happens sometimes. Also you say that they were warned about kobolds in the adventure? Were they warned about warforged? If not then it would be reasonable for the wizard to prepare spells to fight kobolds, which may have been ineffective against warforged.


2) Maybe in your campaigns in the start of an adventure the Wizards don't have any spells or scrolls prepared but that is not the standard in most games. All the other PCs had adventuring gear didn't see any posts where the PCs were fighting without equipment. Sounds like poor planning on the part of the Wizard without further input from the OP.

That is the standard in many games I'm sure, but not all games. In most of the games I've played the wizards did not load themselves down with scrolls. I can't speak for my fellow players, but I tend to have a few emergency scrolls, but save the bulk of my money for commissioning reusable or permanent magic items. At that level I probably spent a fair amount of my money on a horse and other basic equipment too.
You may consider us bad players for doing this, but we've never had a problem because of it, and we have fun, so we'll probably continue to play this way.


3) The default is 900 GP unless the OP says differently in a canned adventure. First level spell scrolls only cost 12.5 GP and suggested wealth by level is 900 GP. I still haven't seen a post by the OP that the PCs didn't have any adventuring gear or the Wizard was prohibited from preparing for the adventure so the Wizard should have had scrolls.

Based on the Adventure the Warforged had a base Constitution of 14 and a single level of Barbarian which normally means he could Rage for 7 rounds.

4) TPK except for the Generalist Wizard - 2 who should have had 3 first level spells starting an adventure in Act 1 Scent 1 of Shadows of the Last War unless the OP says differently.

Yes, these are all reasonable assumptions. But that doesn't necessarily make them true. The fact that the OP didn't say otherwise does not make them true. He may have just forgotten or not considered it important information in the original post.


5) Are you saying that the party composition was a F, Cl, Rogue and Wizard?

Are you saying an average party of PC adventurers comprising a F -2, Cl - 2, Bard or Rogue -2 and Sorcerer or Wizard -2 at 100% should not normally (Sometimes the dice roll funny but that isn't what the OP said happened) be able to deal with a CR3 Fighter accompanied by four Kobolds with 6 Hit Points using the Suggested Wealth by Level Default?

Yes, a basic lvl 2 party should have been able to defeat this encounter with or without a wizard IMO. So the question is what happened? Were the other three really so incompetent that they couldn't make up for one (possibly) poorly played character in an easy encounter? I doubt that. I think it's reasonable to assume that there were other factors, if the wizard was a factor at all.


Regarding you last point an awful lot of posters doing exactly the same for the Party along with defending the Wizard PC while knowing even less than I do having a copy of the adventure.

We have more facts about the DM than we do about the wizard.

Things we know about the DM:
The DM changed the encounter, changed the way xp is earned, was having a bad day and appeared to be in a bad mood. When the PCs started dying the DM's mood appeared to get better. The DM had the assassins that were sent to kill a woman let her go in favor of defeating the PCs and then coup de graced them when they were already defeated. Note that coup de gracing enemies defeated in battle is not an unreasonable action, but there were other reasonable actions the DM could have taken. He chose the one that killed the whole party.

Things we know about the wizard:
She ran out of spells. She took the woman they were protecting to safety.
............
...............
.....................
..............................did I miss anything?

Let me say it again to be clear. The wizard could have been at fault. You could be right, but I feel it is unreasonable to assume that there were no other factors in the PCs defeat. In fact I can't see any way that the wizard could have been the only factor.
I honestly can't understand why you think that it could be entirely the wizard's fault. If you can explain that to me (maybe a round by round breakdown of the way you see the fight going? I'm not sure how you're thinking, so I'm not sure how you could explain it.) then I would honestly be interesting in listening to your explanation.

Thrawn183
2008-08-31, 09:47 AM
I have to agree 100% with Castlemike.

I've played that particular module. Our arcanist dropped every single attacker in two spells (I was a ninja btw). We just coup de grace'd all the enemies. That was an increadibly poor porformance on the OP's party's wizard's part.

As for the DM, knowing what's going on with the warforged, he was exactly right to have them finish off the party.

The OP has no right to be angry, I don't think anyone in my party even got hurt that fight.

(This encounter was one small leap to me realizing that arcanists really really aren't weak at low level.)

Tallis
2008-08-31, 09:57 AM
I have to agree 100% with Castlemike.

I've played that particular module. Our arcanist dropped every single attacker in two spells (I was a ninja btw). We just coup de grace'd all the enemies. That was an increadibly poor porformance on the OP's party's wizard's part.

As for the DM, knowing what's going on with the warforged, he was exactly right to have them finish off the party.

The OP has no right to be angry, I don't think anyone in my party even got hurt that fight.

(This encounter was one small leap to me realizing that arcanists really really aren't weak at low level.)

Okay, I'll take your word for it that the coup de grace was appropriate.

I still think it's unfair to rest the entire responsibility for winning or losing on the wizard. If that's the case what are the rest of the party there for? To carry her bags?
Maybe we should just blame everyone who didn't play a wizard, because obviously they should have.

Knaight
2008-08-31, 12:35 PM
That and the rest of the party could have fled anyways.. When things go south head for the door, and run past the nearest guard station.

Yahzi
2008-08-31, 01:27 PM
They're not saying the DM should try to kill the party.

However, the creatures he controls definately should be, and he should play them accordingly.
Exactly! Complaining about the evilness of professional assassins is not productive. They're supposed to be evil, after all, and that evil means something.

What we see here is the same divide the comes up in 3e/4e debates: should the party be inherently special? In my world, they're no different than any other NPCs. If they go and get themselves killed doing something foolish - or even merely unlukcy - oh well, tough for them. If they don't like dying, they should roll better dice. :smallbiggrin: Seriously, though, this attitude makes the game quite fun, because your rewards are also entirely your own. If the DM withholds penalties (like wicked assassins doing wicked things), then nothing you ever win can be as satisfying. But in a world where all the NPCs are just like you, then defeating/saving them becomes important, because you know the DM/Gods/Fate won't do it for you.

I think Ken's DM reacted badly (because he was having a bad day), but I don't think the adventure was handled badly. I would have been apologizing and laughing at how much my party sucked and bad their luck was - and so would they. Then we would have rolled up completely different characters and started from the aftermath. After all, a big slaughter like that is going to attract attention!

Talic
2008-08-31, 01:49 PM
IMO the DM/GM should fudge a few rolls in the partie's favor from time to time but the dice roll the way they do and sometimes the PCs do the wrong thing. IMO the potential chance of a TPK is one of the things that makes the game fun even if occassionally your PC dies. Usually not that big of a deal since you can either have him raised or resurrected or make a new one.

IMO, this is removing lethality from combat. If players feel that only the BBEG fights have any chance of death, the challenge in the others... Well, it isn't a challenge. It's just kill things. Risk is what builds dramatic tension, hanging on that very thread.

If you fudge a die roll in the player's benefit whenever something bad happens, it's like sending the Golden Gloves boxing champ against an angry 7 year old. Not all that fun for anyone.

Stormthorn
2008-08-31, 03:12 PM
Wizards aint everything.

I was in a group that killed a young black dragon (four of us, at level 2) with very little help from our sorcerer, who was DM controlled.

(Although technicaly we didnt kill it, and i felt cheated when the DM had it run away because we could have finished it off)

BRC
2008-08-31, 03:18 PM
IMO, this is removing lethality from combat. If players feel that only the BBEG fights have any chance of death, the challenge in the others... Well, it isn't a challenge. It's just kill things. Risk is what builds dramatic tension, hanging on that very thread.

If you fudge a die roll in the player's benefit whenever something bad happens, it's like sending the Golden Gloves boxing champ against an angry 7 year old. Not all that fun for anyone.
A DM is part referee, Part storyteller, Part Psychological wafare specialist.


TPK's are no fun, but neither are steamrolling encounters. A perfect DM would design encounters that the PC's would beat, but just barely. They would win by the skin of their teeth and with the thought "Whew, it's a good thing the dice turned out that way/ we thought up that plan".

However, this is near impossible, designing an encounter where the PC's win despite being one dice roll away from TPK means that one bad dice roll can lead to a TPK. So what a DM should do, is make the Players think they are in more danger than they actually are. You shouldn't actively attempt to kill them off, but you also shouldn't let them know that.

Knaight
2008-08-31, 03:37 PM
(Although technicaly we didnt kill it, and i felt cheated when the DM had it run away because we could have finished it off)

Which would be why it ran away.

FoE
2008-08-31, 03:48 PM
It's one thing to TPK a party at a boss battle or something you've designed to be nearly-lethal anyways... but from what CastleMIKE has said, this was supposed to be a fairly innocuous encounter.

Something is just not right here.

CASTLEMIKE
2008-08-31, 04:45 PM
Mike, the "it's the wizard's fault" argument is inaccurate and completely unfair. You might as well say it's the Fighter's fault for not being a Warblade 1/Barbarian 1 and not killing the enemy Warforged in round 1 with a Raging Two-Handed-Greatsword Punishing Stance Steely Strike. Most players don't use characters to their full potential; do you shout at them at the table if they don't? For all you know the wizard's player was a casual player or a newbie.

- Saph




PS: castlemike, you seem determined for this to be the wizards fault and unwilling to consider that maybe the GM didn't give them a fair chance. Until the OP says either way, wouldn't it be fair to grant an equal chance of the GM being in error?


Maybe. I disagree I am not expecting the PC to be fully optimized just not a complete drag on the party. It's a team game. One player can lose the game for the team just like one player can occassionally be a super star and win the game for the party.

Each game has it's own balance. There is a difference between being uninformed or misinformed learning the game and making poor or weak choices.

The only players I have ever had an issue with were the ones who were deliberately trying to derail the game by being deliberately ineffective or disruptive (stealing from, betraying and killing party members particularly when they weren't Evil (True Neutrals my PC was looking out for Number 1 and Chaotic Neutrals it seemed like a good idea at the time and LNs I was following my personal code). Make a choice put up with their antics or find another game.

The "typical" balanced party the game is based on would comprise 4 or 5 players with at least one member from the four basic party building blocks: F/Barb/Pal/Rang - 2, Cl/Dr - 2, Bard/Monk/Rogue - 2, Sorcerer/Wizard -2.

The Wizard PC was filling one of those building blocks and appears to have been ineffective if she was out of "bullets". Maybe she started out the encounter with 3 really poor first level spell choices without any spell scrolls. IMO that is playing a Wizard PC poorly.

I rate a 5 man party at 100% and a 4 man party at 80% for dealing with this scenario as an appropiate CR encounter. Another way to rate it is say the 5 man party is at 125% and the 4 man party is at 100%.

A party Sorcerer/Wizard who should be starting the adventure at 100% without any effective usable spells or spell scrolls for the encounter in Scene 1 Act 1 who is out of "bullets" effectively reduces the party to 75% or 60% strength compared to a 5 man party.

My reasoning is simply any other class would bolster the strength and effectiveness of the party for the encounter. A Wizard PC without effective usable spells or spell scrolls for this encounter who flees the party encounter without the other party members is just taking up space and is a drag on the party. Everyone had to roll up or produce new characters except for her and that isn't fun.

Shadows of the Last War is the second of a series of three Eberron adventures which is how I interpret in the "middle of an adventure" comment of the OP until he posts differently since the adventure presumes the PCs are starting at 100%.

Warforged are a PC race in Eberron not an obscure race or creature IMO a Wizard player should be familiar with them just like they should know it is generally a bad idea to cast Sleep against Elves.

ken-do-nim
2008-08-31, 06:05 PM
Ok, let me clear up a few of the speculative details to the best of my memory.

#1) Yes, we were warned about the danger as per the module.
#2) Yes, we started the encounter at 100%. The wizard did cast grease, which kept the fight going a lot longer than it otherwise would have. I believe she also cast charm person on a kobold without success. Her other spell was animate rope; I'm not sure what happened with that.
#3) The warforged barbarian was armed with a glaive (reach weapon) and combat reflexes. The party monk was the first to go down because of an attack of opportunity with the glaive (failed tumble check). The party cleric moved up to cast cure light wounds on the monk, also provoking an attack of opportunity from the glaive and down she went as well.

From then on, my spiked chain fighter took on the warforged barbarian and 4 kobolds solo while the wizard escaped. With my fighter's armor, retreat was not a viable option so he stuck it out and went down.

From reading all the responses and better understanding the module, I think the party definitely had some tough dice rolls and underestimated the opponents. However, the coup-de-grace on the 3 unconscious characters (monk, cleric, fighter) was pretty unnecessary. The DM could easily have avoided that by saying either the enemy went off in pursuit of the wizard and the woman, or that the town guard arrived to chase them off. Instead he chose to have them stick around and finish off the pcs.

turkishproverb
2008-08-31, 07:21 PM
That seems...a little bit deliberate. I would think the BBEG would have left them to go after the wizard.

CASTLEMIKE
2008-08-31, 07:39 PM
Ok, let me clear up a few of the speculative details to the best of my memory.

#1) Yes, we were warned about the danger as per the module.
#2) Yes, we started the encounter at 100%. The wizard did cast grease, which kept the fight going a lot longer than it otherwise would have. I believe she also cast charm person on a kobold without success. Her other spell was animate rope; I'm not sure what happened with that.
#3) The warforged barbarian was armed with a glaive (reach weapon) and combat reflexes. The party monk was the first to go down because of an attack of opportunity with the glaive (failed tumble check). The party cleric moved up to cast cure light wounds on the monk, also provoking an attack of opportunity from the glaive and down she went as well.

From then on, my spiked chain fighter took on the warforged barbarian and 4 kobolds solo while the wizard escaped. With my fighter's armor, retreat was not a viable option so he stuck it out and went down.

From reading all the responses and better understanding the module, I think the party definitely had some tough dice rolls and underestimated the opponents. However, the coup-de-grace on the 3 unconscious characters (monk, cleric, fighter) was pretty unnecessary. The DM could easily have avoided that by saying either the enemy went off in pursuit of the wizard and the woman, or that the town guard arrived to chase them off. Instead he chose to have them stick around and finish off the pcs.

Ken-do-nim sometimes the dice roll badly like for the monk or the Wizard's Charm Person. Barring really bad dice rolls would your party normally have any trouble surviving a similar encounter at 100% now with an average or better Wizard player with several or more scrolls?


That seems...a little bit deliberate. I would think the BBEG would have left them to go after the wizard.

Yes it was deliberate. In the adventure the BBEGs are supposed to try to Kill the PCs fighting to the last man while the BBEG shouts out clues to the PCs.

Think how differently this encounter would have played out with most PC Wizards at 100% who would have chosen Color Spray or Sleep instead of Animate Rope and who would have had extra spell scrolls of encounter useful spells to cast to benefit the party.

The Wizard has the Scribe Scroll feat for a reason particularly at low levels.

4 First Level Emergency Scrolls only cost the PC Wizard 50 GP and 4 EXP and more than double his daily spellcasting options. Doubling or tripling the number of scrolls isn't an unreasonable proposition in most games and gives the Wizard more spell scrolls to choose from to deal with a encounter.

Knaight
2008-08-31, 07:43 PM
Yes, leaving 3 people you just knocked out lying on the floor to get up and tell the authorities exactly what you look like and what you did is a bright idea. The coup de grace was totally necessary. A spiked chain disarm of the glaive was all that was needed to win it anyways. And there is a lot you can do with animate rope.

Starbuck_II
2008-08-31, 07:59 PM
Yes, leaving 3 people you just knocked out lying on the floor to get up and tell the authorities exactly what you look like and what you did is a bright idea. The coup de grace was totally necessary. A spiked chain disarm of the glaive was all that was needed to win it anyways. And there is a lot you can do with animate rope.

There isn't much chance he could disarm: Remember this was a 3rd level warriorr (Fighter 2/Barb 1) class with Rage on it: +3 BAb, +4 Str and Con (-2 AC though). Then add in its own Str bonus (more than likely at least 16). He has a counter Disarm check of 8 +4 for 2 handed= +12. Than add in any Weaponm Focus.

There is little chance that the PC would win.

Akimbo
2008-08-31, 08:19 PM
No, but I think we can safely say that it wasn't entirely the Wizards fault.

Let's breakdown the fault completely.

1) The Wizard should have memorized Sleep or Color Spray to do something better.

2) The Monk should have chosen a decent class instead of Monk.

3) The Cleric should have been a real character instead of poor healbot, and either hit the guy in the face or cast a decent spell, then hit the guy in the face. Pick one.

4) The fighter did pretty well, best he could really hope for.

So the blame is pretty much everyone but the DM and the player posting.

ken-do-nim
2008-08-31, 08:21 PM
Yes, leaving 3 people you just knocked out lying on the floor to get up and tell the authorities exactly what you look like and what you did is a bright idea. The coup de grace was totally necessary. A spiked chain disarm of the glaive was all that was needed to win it anyways. And there is a lot you can do with animate rope.

The only reason it would be pointless is that the raging barbarian warforged was already dead. :smallsmile:

But I think I now agree with you (and CASTLEMIKE); it was really just a case of bad luck on the party's part and relatively good luck on the DM's, and that's just the way it is.

Glad I started this thread. I needed to exorcise the demon of "when things go wrong, blame the DM".

(as to the point about the wizard's scrolls, I don't think the player was making many; saving every last xp since it was being halved as is)

monty
2008-08-31, 08:22 PM
So, in other words, the wizard should have been Batman, the monk shouldn't exist, the cleric should've been Czilla, and the fighter was boring?

ken-do-nim
2008-08-31, 08:25 PM
So, in other words, the wizard should have been Batman, the monk shouldn't exist, the cleric should've been Czilla, and the fighter was boring?

I realize you were aiming for sarcasm, but my fighter was anything but boring. Big mistake *I* made was not drinking a potion of shield of faith before engaging in hand-to-hand.

Knaight
2008-08-31, 08:27 PM
There isn't much chance he could disarm: Remember this was a 3rd level warriorr (Fighter 2/Barb 1) class with Rage on it: +3 BAb, +4 Str and Con (-2 AC though). Then add in its own Str bonus (more than likely at least 16). He has a counter Disarm check of 8 +4 for 2 handed= +12. Than add in any Weaponm Focus.

There is little chance that the PC would win.

So lets say 16 strength. 20 enhanced, which is a +5 bonus, with a +1 BAB ahead of the fighter. Both weapons are two handed, and the spiked chain has a +2 bonus to disarm. +4, hardly impossible to get through.

CASTLEMIKE
2008-08-31, 08:39 PM
Glad I started this thread. I needed to exorcise the demon of "when things go wrong, blame the DM".


It was an interesting thread to peruse over the Labor Day weekend. :smallsmile:

Akimbo
2008-08-31, 08:41 PM
So, in other words, the wizard should have been Batman, the monk shouldn't exist, the cleric should've been Czilla, and the fighter was boring?

No, I'm saying the Wizard and Cleric should have been competent, the Monk should have picked a class that can actually ever be competent, and the Fighter was just fine but can't be expected to beat a fighter 2/Barbarian 1 with his Fighter 2.

Fiery Diamond
2008-08-31, 08:51 PM
Note: Wizard without scrolls =/= poorly played wizard.
Wizard without spells specifically for a combat situation =/= poorly played wizard. (I don't know the module, but what if they only found out about the situation on the same day, after the wizard had already prepared spells?)

Castlemike, read Tallis's post.

*I am not going to post again on this thread, so feel free to be vocally upset at me, but don't expect a response.

-Fiery Diamond

turkishproverb
2008-08-31, 09:07 PM
Yes it was deliberate. In the adventure the BBEGs are supposed to try to Kill the PCs fighting to the last man while the BBEG shouts out clues to the PCs.


If the Mcguffin is getting away, it does not make sense for the BBEG to ignore it and go on killing.

The wizard ran WITH the person they were supposed to help.


No, I'm saying the Wizard and Cleric should have been competent, the Monk should have picked a class that can actually ever be competent, and the Fighter was just fine but can't be expected to beat a fighter 2/Barbarian 1 with his Fighter 2.

So, 1: Wizard should have been optimised but maybe not batman (close), MOnk shouldn't exist (same), Cleric was played badly (close, depending on what you mean) and fighter was just screwed?

So far you have at least one you should have said "Yes" to instead of no.

Tallis
2008-08-31, 11:45 PM
Yes, leaving 3 people you just knocked out lying on the floor to get up and tell the authorities exactly what you look like and what you did is a bright idea. The coup de grace was totally necessary. A spiked chain disarm of the glaive was all that was needed to win it anyways. And there is a lot you can do with animate rope.

Didn't this happen in a tavern? Presumeably there were plenty of witnesses. I don't think secrecy was the issue.

@Ken : Thanks for clearing up the details. Glad we could help you work this out.

....and WOOHOO!!! I've been referrenced in a thread! :smallcool: Fiery Diamond is my new favorite. :smallsmile::smallbiggrin:

Akimbo
2008-09-01, 12:03 AM
So, 1: Wizard should have been optimised but maybe not batman (close), MOnk shouldn't exist (same), Cleric was played badly (close, depending on what you mean) and fighter was just screwed?

So far you have at least one you should have said "Yes" to instead of no.

I am globally negating the entire statement, and describing what I mean. Yes, the Monk should not be a Monk. This is not rocket science here.

No, the Wizard doesn't have to be optimized, or batman, or anything, he just has to have picked any decent spell. Seriously. Not that hard.

Cleric was played incredibly stupidly, wasting a spell trying to wake up a combatant with a lower to hit and lower damage then him, and doing it within the threatened range of the opponent. Even though no matter what the arrnagement I could point out someplace else he could have stood and cast and not provoked an AoO.

I'm not asking for Codzilla here, I'm asking for doing anything at all that makes even the remotest bit of sense.

And the fighter was screwed because he was forced to attempt to solo a CR 5 encounter by himself at level 2, due to the ineptness of his teammates.

turkishproverb
2008-09-01, 12:17 AM
I am globally negating the entire statement, and describing what I mean. Yes, the Monk should not be a Monk. This is not rocket science here.

I've taken out raging Barbarian 2 Fighter 2's with a 2nd level monk. DOn't rule them out. Still, I see what you mean, and either way he wasn't going to be too useful without the rest of them.

Point was, you said No in general.


No, the Wizard doesn't have to be optimized, or batman, or anything, he just has to have picked any decent spell. Seriously. Not that hard.

Clearly they do have to be optimized a little more than, even if just in spell choice. Still, I admitted not batman.



Cleric was played incredibly stupidly, wasting a spell trying to wake up a combatant with a lower to hit and lower damage then him, and doing it within the threatened range of the opponent. Even though no matter what the arrnagement I could point out someplace else he could have stood and cast and not provoked an AoO.

I'm not asking for Codzilla here, I'm asking for doing anything at all that makes even the remotest bit of sense.

Agreed, mostly due to the assumption it was a typical cleric



And the fighter was screwed because he was forced to attempt to solo a CR 5 encounter by himself at level 2, due to the ineptness of his teammates.

Thats...basically what I meant.

icefractal
2008-09-01, 12:47 AM
Actually, it looks like the Wizard had two out of three decent spells, and if preparing Animate Rope is failing your duty to the party, then so is playing a Monk.

But in a lot of campaigns, those kind of decisions are acceptable - not every game demands absolute combat efficiency, especially at 2nd level. You can't hide behind "the players screwed up" when you throw a difficult fight at them and then decide to go for the CdG when there's a probably reason not to. If someone wants to be a killer DM, then fine, but players may not want to join their campaign.

Koalita
2008-09-01, 06:33 AM
I think that people are a bit too harsh to what players should be doing.
The warforged used his AoO, the cleric could have thought he had no combat reflexes.
Charm and grease are good spells. The last one could've been magic missile for 1d4+1, and it wouldn't have changed much. Players do pick blasting spells for wizard 2. Sometimes I see them with magic missile, burning hands and identify.
Monk 2 isn't THAT bad. They are not very good vs fighting classes, but can be a threat to spellcasters.

I dont know about you, but our DM doesn't like us to carry scrolls around, so he has ruled that if you are to get any scrolls, you must buy them for full or scribe them after character creation.

If you don't mind, I would like to point out a scenario I'm within... red hand of doom, (so stop reading if you are playing it) last battle defending the city, 5 characters of levels 7-8-9, luckily our druid and cleric leveled up and has some spells (completely out of spells, dm let them memorize new ones for leveling to 9). Our blasting wiz has some blasting scrolls and a few (2-3) spells himself. Ranger/rogue/maybesthelse, and foc. conjurer with 10 spells left.
What is thrown at us: 2 hill giants, 4 ogres, 1 big boss with clerical powers, 1 red dragon, 1 ninja and a flying dire bat with his ranger riding it.

I have the feeling that the expected encounter shouldn't be that way, the DM said we had a 10-20% chance if we spent 130% of our resources, and we are at around 30-40% of our resources. I've also heard something ooc about revenancing the dragon, shall it fall in combat.

We have some henchmen around, from the city's guard, like 1-2 archers and 4 mounted guards, and 1 npc that is capable of fighting a bit. So the other 5-6 npc's will probably die after 1-2 breaths/suddenstrikes/whatever.

So, I would like to know what do you think about this fight... Do we have decent chances to defeat them? Is our DM being a bit too harsh? What is the above estimated CR? I know that they'll be @ full hp and spellcasting capabilities, but I think it's not lesser than 11.

Regards,
Koalita

Starbuck_II
2008-09-01, 06:44 AM
If you don't mind, I would like to point out a scenario I'm within... red hand of doom, (so stop reading if you are playing it) last battle defending the city, 5 characters of levels 7-8-9, luckily our druid and cleric leveled up and has some spells (completely out of spells, dm let them memorize new ones for leveling to 9). Our blasting wiz has some blasting scrolls and a few (2-3) spells himself. Ranger/rogue/maybesthelse, and foc. conjurer with 10 spells left.
What is thrown at us: 2 hill giants, 4 ogres, 1 big boss with clerical powers, 1 red dragon, 1 ninja and a flying dire bat with his ranger riding it.

I have the feeling that the expected encounter shouldn't be that way, the DM said we had a 10-20% chance if we spent 130% of our resources, and we are at around 30-40% of our resources. I've also heard something ooc about revenancing the dragon, shall it fall in combat.

We have some henchmen around, from the city's guard, like 1-2 archers and 4 mounted guards, and 1 npc that is capable of fighting a bit. So the other 5-6 npc's will probably die after 1-2 breaths/suddenstrikes/whatever.

So, I would like to know what do you think about this fight... Do we have decent chances to defeat them? Is our DM being a bit too harsh? What is the above estimated CR? I know that they'll be @ full hp and spellcasting capabilities, but I think it's not lesser than 11.

Regards,
Koalita

Well, you have Druidzilla so that helps: what animal Companion?

The conjurer is the best of the casting part: Glitterdust will be an enourmous help versus Dragon and Grease versus the ogre/giants.
Heck, Glitterdust on Ranger is pretty nifty too (who cares if bat can detect enemies if ranger can't).

Eldariel
2008-09-01, 07:02 AM
The primary question is if the Druid is Wildshaped into a Fleshraker with Venomfire and Greater Magic Fang active, along with his companion, wearing Monk's Belt with Wilding Clasps on it and having retrofitted Mithril Bardings to the companion? If not, you're pretty boned. The Wizard's spells are the key - if he's got Glitterdust or similar, he can do a lot and Solid Fog or similar would allow taking the giants out of the combat really for long enough. If the Druid has any form of flight-spells memorized (or the Wizard for that matter), they could engage and take down the Dragon. Other than that, they should probably try to nail the big boss first while the other casters try to keep the giants and the Dragon busy.

I don't see the Ranger-pile being very useful in this fight, nor the Blaster Wizard (So. Out. Of. Their. League), but they could try to focus on the big boss along with the Druid to perhaps speed up its demise by a turn. The Conjurer is probably best equipped to dealing with the Giants (stuff like Solid Fog, Grease and company should enable him to take them out of combat - alternatively, Wall of Force if he's level 5). The Ninja and the Ranger shouldn't be big issues leaving the primary foes as the Big Bad and the Dragon (any idea of how old?).

nagora
2008-09-01, 07:14 AM
If the Mcguffin is getting away, it does not make sense for the BBEG to ignore it and go on killing.
I agree with this; that's the only part that seems slightly harsh to me. But, perhaps making sure they were dead was one way of "putting the word out" to other would-be helpers of the woman.

Tallis
2008-09-01, 09:44 AM
What is thrown at us: 2 hill giants, 4 ogres, 1 big boss with clerical powers, 1 red dragon, 1 ninja and a flying dire bat with his ranger riding it.

I have the feeling that the expected encounter shouldn't be that way, the DM said we had a 10-20% chance if we spent 130% of our resources, and we are at around 30-40% of our resources. I've also heard something ooc about revenancing the dragon, shall it fall in combat.

We have some henchmen around, from the city's guard, like 1-2 archers and 4 mounted guards, and 1 npc that is capable of fighting a bit. So the other 5-6 npc's will probably die after 1-2 breaths/suddenstrikes/whatever.

So, I would like to know what do you think about this fight... Do we have decent chances to defeat them? Is our DM being a bit too harsh? What is the above estimated CR? I know that they'll be @ full hp and spellcasting capabilities, but I think it's not lesser than 11.

Hard to say what the CR is without knowing the level of the boss cleric, the ranger, or the ninja, or the age of the red dragon.
Of course the DM has just told you flat out you have very little chance of winning. Is retreat an option?

Adumbration
2008-09-01, 09:56 AM
Do you know what bothers me a lot about the comments of castlemike and others? They completely absolve the DM - say in the Coup de Grace case - by saying that what he did was completely IC when it came to that - and in the same breath they blame the party for doing the same.

You are a cleric of a good god, and you see your friend go down mortally wounded. What do you do? Is your first priority to smack the one who did it, or to heal his friend and save him from death? The correct answer is the latter one. Anything else is OOC thinking. The same applies to other party members - there is a perfectly valid IC reason for everything they did, if you bother to look, or at least there could be, me not knowing the circumstances.

As I said, the party is being blamed for what absolves the DM, apparently.

MeklorIlavator
2008-09-01, 10:01 AM
Koalita, I have the module, and that sounds like what happens if you don't kill all of the BEG's that you find at various points in the module. Did you do every optional quest? And I'm assuming that this is taking place inside a city, so can you give a recap of that battle?

Starbuck_II
2008-09-01, 10:06 AM
Do you know what bothers me a lot about the comments of castlemike and others? They completely absolve the DM - say in the Coup de Grace case - by saying that what he did was completely IC when it came to that - and in the same breath they blame the party for doing the same.

You are a cleric of a good god, and you see your friend go down mortally wounded. What do you do? Is your first priority to smack the one who did it, or to heal his friend and save him from death? The correct answer is the latter one. Anything else is OOC thinking. The same applies to other party members - there is a perfectly valid IC reason for everything they did, if you bother to look, or at least there could be, me not knowing the circumstances.

As I said, the party is being blamed for what absolves the DM, apparently.

It may be an IC reason, but it is bad IC reasoning.

A weird example:
It would be like having the perfect shot at killing Stalin before his terror begins, but instead you put on a band-aid losing the chance.

In combat, taking out the enemies should come before anything else. The guy wasn't going to die next turn from bleeding, but he will by the enemy.

A good IC reasoning:
Hold Person, Fear, Etc will take out the enemy (Come on, who has a good Will save at low levels).

Once the enemy is indisposed: you can hurrily heal those dying.

A good god is not going to punish his followers for being smart or he will only have dumb followers left (never a good plan in the long run).

Akimbo
2008-09-01, 10:28 AM
Do you know what bothers me a lot about the comments of castlemike and others? They completely absolve the DM - say in the Coup de Grace case - by saying that what he did was completely IC when it came to that - and in the same breath they blame the party for doing the same.

You are a cleric of a good god, and you see your friend go down mortally wounded. What do you do? Is your first priority to smack the one who did it, or to heal his friend and save him from death? The correct answer is the latter one. Anything else is OOC thinking. The same applies to other party members - there is a perfectly valid IC reason for everything they did, if you bother to look, or at least there could be, me not knowing the circumstances.

As I said, the party is being blamed for what absolves the DM, apparently.

I am the only person who has criticized the cleric so far, and I never said that the DM was right to Coup de Grace because it was IC.

Of course were I the DM, I'd go for the TPK, have the Barbarian/Fighter chase the Wizard, and have two of the Kobolds do all the Coup de Gracing, because they deserve a TPK for that type of play.

Also, a Good God would want you to kill the guy standing right over your friend with a Glaive in hand. Because unlike most Clerics, Gods are not stupid.

Yahzi
2008-09-01, 01:10 PM
Do you know what bothers me a lot about the comments of castlemike and others? They completely absolve the DM
And they should.



and in the same breath they blame the party for doing the same.
OK, I agree with you here.

The party wasn't retarded or anything. They were just unlucky. But that's why we roll the dice. The correct solution was to laugh about the total wipe-out, and then create a new party who investigates this brutal slaughter in a city tavern. :smallsmile:

Yahzi
2008-09-01, 01:13 PM
It would be like having the perfect shot at killing Stalin before his terror begins, but instead you put on a band-aid losing the chance.
Not every 2nd level Cleric is Sun Tzu.

Characters doing things that aren't optimal is fine when it makes sense for their characters. Because, you know, real human beings are often sub-optimal, especially in combat.

CASTLEMIKE
2008-09-01, 01:56 PM
Do you know what bothers me a lot about the comments of castlemike and others? They completely absolve the DM - say in the Coup de Grace case - by saying that what he did was completely IC when it came to that - and in the same breath they blame the party for doing the same.

The Wizard was very poorly played (Bad Spell Selection and No Emergency or Backup Spell Scrolls) I don't expect super optimization what bothers me is all the people making excuses for her poor play and trying to shift the blame to the DM/GM. Note the F-2 had a 150 GP potion he could have drank why is it unreasonable to expect the Wizard to have half that amount 75 GP in scrolls? (Equates to a half dozen First level scrolls and -6 EXP to the Wizard or three spell scrolls if purchased in ECS at full market price for No negative crafting experience cost)

In a campaign where a Wizard can not craft scrolls before an adventure the Scribe Scroll feat should be swapped out for something useful and the Wizard should probably use the Animal Companion Variant because the player is being unfairly limited in game when the Wizard is at it's weakest in game that was clearly not the case in this game, the DM did not limit the Wizard the Player did.

This isn't rocket science have a party pool for consumable magic items like Scrolls to benefit the party with the Wizard getting 5 GP credit for each EXP they will be expending.

This was a canned adventure. The DM slightly tweaked the BBEG by swapping out a level and a weapon while leaving him a CR3 encounter.

The dice roll badly sometimes. The Wizard PC did not have the spell resources to deal with that and the encounter snowballed out of control into a TPK which wasn't fun for the other 3 players.

Yes I blame the Wizard -2 who is supposed to be at 100% for this adventure and ready to go for four or five CR appropiate encounters. She only had 3 first level spells but 4 cantrips which could be used for Read Magic if the PC did not wish to chance a failure at DC21 Spellcraft check. IMO the absolute minimum number of Spell Scrolls the Wizard should have had is at least 4 and I would expect the Wizard to have 8 or more Spell Scrolls to choose from normally at L2.

Choosing a spell like Animate Rope is not a normal choice with 3 first level daily spell slots and no backup or emergency scrolls like Color Spray, Grease and Sleep which are going to be a lot more useful in quite a few more encounters.

Sometimes the dice roll badly that is what those emergency spell scrolls are for casting a spell appropiate to the situation to help the party.

Consider how differently this encounter would have played out if the Wizard has cast Sleep on the Kobolds instead of trying to Charm a single Kobold, so the PCs could gang up on the BBEGs instead of the poor Fighter having to Fight 5 BBEGs by himself.

Consider if the Wizard had had another Charm Person or Color Spray to cast on the Warforged the main BBEG.

Consider if the Wizard had cast Grease, Sleep (Kobolds), Charm Person and used up her memorized first level spells for the day and now could cast several more spells from scrolls.

turkishproverb
2008-09-01, 02:08 PM
Do you know what bothers me a lot about the comments of castlemike and others? They completely absolve the DM - say in the Coup de Grace case - by saying that what he did was completely IC when it came to that - and in the same breath they blame the party for doing the same.

You are a cleric of a good god, and you see your friend go down mortally wounded. What do you do? Is your first priority to smack the one who did it, or to heal his friend and save him from death? The correct answer is the latter one. Anything else is OOC thinking. The same applies to other party members - there is a perfectly valid IC reason for everything they did, if you bother to look, or at least there could be, me not knowing the circumstances.

As I said, the party is being blamed for what absolves the DM, apparently.

To say nothing of the fact the BBEG Killed them WHILE LETTING THE PERSON HE WAS AFTER GO. This isn't exactly the most defensible way for the DM to play the character out.

CASTLEMIKE
2008-09-01, 02:27 PM
To say nothing of the fact the BBEG Killed them WHILE LETTING THE PERSON HE WAS AFTER GO. This isn't exactly the most defensible way for the DM to play the character out.

You are misinformed on this point and should read the WOTC adventure.

turkishproverb
2008-09-01, 02:46 PM
You are misinformed on this point and should read the WOTC adventure.

So he WASNT after the woman who escape withe the wizard, but just an unaware nut who came by?

Koalita
2008-09-01, 02:57 PM
Starbuck_II: The druid has no animal companion alive, he had a... uh... wolf or similar animal companion that died in the lich's coven. Few spells remaining (1 2nd level and 2 5th level) wall of fire and call lightning storm. The 2nd level was some kind of buff.

Eldariel: No, the druid is... out of spells except those 3, without animal companion, no long lasting buffs except maybe a potion of something (bull's strenght iirc).

MeklorIlavator: We did most of the sidequests, but some of them were not that successful. I missed some sessions, where they were supposed to kill the dragon etc...

The dragon is... juvenile, as his size is large. The ninja is problematic as it's HP is VERY high (over 70), attacks many times per round and uses poison.
The ranger has elves and humans as fav enemies, but is pretty much out of the equation.

Battle recap... it's inside a cathedral, we barred the door and triggered when they started baiting at it. But then DM ruled that as the BBEG's are already triggering, we all go by initiative (so, the plan was to have the mounted guards to charge when someone gets inside, now they just moved inside as they wish... didnt like that tbh) everybody starts getting inside.
As there was a decent ammount of time before the door fails, we get to buff ourselves, so we cast flight on the cleric and the ranger (our melee'ers). Energy resistance on everybody.
Solid fog casted, wall of fire casted, BBEG dispels solid fog, dragon enters the scene and kills tons of henchmen (taking enemy ranger out too).
Some combat between soldiers and ogres end with all ogres dead, and all soldiers except 1 npc fighter dead. The 2 giants approach a undefended druid, grease takes care of them.
Enemy divine spellcaster (and bbeg) buffs himself (air walk, divine power) and enters the scene. Dragon is being flanked by the dwarven cleric (Righteous Might, bears endurance...) and the party ranger/rogue. The ranger rogue is being almost flanked by the dragon and the bbeg.
Dragon's AC is very high and they fail their attacks. Conjurer casts targetted dispel on dragon and they start to bring him down.

Had to end the session so the scenario now is... ninja going to attack blaster, dragon trying to fight back, bbeg thinking about casting revenance on the dragon after it's slayed, 2 giants trapped in grease...
Blaster is almost out of spells, near the fighter/archer npc but being threatened by the deadly ninja.
Druid has lightning storm, so he can keep hitting something.
Batman wannabe doesnt know what to do, if to glitterdust the ninja, arcane turmoil the bbeg, prepare a damage spell to try to break his concentration, benign transp someone, get in and use whisper gnome's silence to shut the caster....

I've heard sth about it being CR ~14-15.

Running is not an option, as if this fails, it's pretty much over. (Well, it may be an option for 1-2 chars if there's going to be a TPK, but I'd rather see this somehow succeeding...)

CASTLEMIKE
2008-09-01, 03:01 PM
So he WASNT after the woman who escape withe the wizard, but just an unaware nut who came by?

The Warforged was a Zealot and the last agent of the Lord of Blades in Sharn.

He and his mercenaries were supposed to fight to the death against the PCs while he shouted out Clues to the PCs. The encounter was supposed to be a TPK for the BBEGs and give the PCs another magic weapon as treasure.

A CR3 Warforged Warrior (The DM tweaked the F-3 to F-2 Barbarian -1 and changed the weapon), the 4 Kobold mercenaries each had 6 Hit Points and the PCs had already been clued in that they were in terrible danger with a scroll from their factor Lady Cannith and speaking with the House Sivis agent who had just been roughed up by 4 Kobolds stealing a message to her. (No law enforcement showed up to help him either a member of a Noble house in a Dragon House Message station just the PCs).

There were clues that Kobolds and a Warforged were involved if the PCs were not informed of the Kobolds by talking with the House Sivis NPC agent.

icefractal
2008-09-01, 03:56 PM
Ok, a minor point, but I'm getting a little tired of this:

Consider if the Wizard had had another Charm Person or Color Spray to cast on the Warforged the main BBEG.
Charm Person does not work on Warforged! And it isn't a great choice in combat anyway!


This charm makes a humanoid creature regard you as its trusted friend and ally (treat the target’s attitude as friendly). If the creature is currently being threatened or attacked by you or your allies, however, it receives a +5 bonus on its saving throw.
Warforged are type Construct(living), not Humanoid, FYI.

FoE
2008-09-01, 04:14 PM
Now that I've heard more about the encounter, it sounds like the dice just didn't go their way. Otherwise, it shouldn't have been that lethal.

All the same, the DM was a bit harsh. He could have had SOMEBODY aid the party once it started going south.

CASTLEMIKE
2008-09-01, 08:15 PM
Ok, a minor point, but I'm getting a little tired of this:

Charm Person does not work on Warforged! And it isn't a great choice in combat anyway!

Warforged are type Construct(living), not Humanoid, FYI.

I agree it is a minor point unlike other constructs a Warforged is NOT IMMUNE to mind-affecting spells and abilities. ECS page 23.

I agree it is not a great combat spell but it is better than doing nothing or taking Animate Rope most of the time.

monty
2008-09-01, 08:16 PM
I agree it is a minor point unlike other constructs a Warforged is NOT IMMUNE to mind-affecting spells and abilities. ECS page 23.

So then Charm Monster would work on them. Not Charm Person, which specifically only works on humanoids like all the other Person spells.

CASTLEMIKE
2008-09-01, 08:22 PM
So then Charm Monster would work on them. Not Charm Person, which specifically only works on humanoids like all the other Person spells.

It depends on the game and since it is a PC race a DM will rule one way or another for his game. Every standard PC race like Elves and Aaisimar and Tiefling get a special note in their description that Charm Person does not work against them. That is not the case for Warforged which notes they are susceptible to Enchantment unlike other constructs.

Starbuck_II
2008-09-01, 08:25 PM
Another spell that would have been useful: Summon Monster I: Spiders!

Spiders can web enemies: Entangle would have weakened the Warforged. It wasn't like the other spells did much.


Still, I rather think the DMed goofed up by cheesing the Warforged by adding a Spiked Chain.
He didn't have a optimized party (as the Wizard showed): optimizing the enemies should only be done for equilibrium not to show off.

monty
2008-09-01, 08:39 PM
It depends on the game and since it is a PC race a DM will rule one way or another for his game. Every standard PC race like Elves and Aaisimar and Tiefling get a special note in their description that Charm Person does not work against them. That is not the case for Warforged which notes they are susceptible to Enchantment unlike other constructs.


Charm Person
...
Target: One humanoid creature


Warforged are constructs with the living construct subtype.

RAW, it doesn't affect them. Anything else is a houserule.

CASTLEMIKE
2008-09-01, 09:00 PM
RAW, it doesn't affect them. Anything else is a houserule.

And we All Know DMs only run RAW games.:smallbiggrin:

Sholos
2008-09-01, 09:09 PM
It depends on the game and since it is a PC race a DM will rule one way or another for his game. Every standard PC race like Elves and Aaisimar and Tiefling get a special note in their description that Charm Person does not work against them. That is not the case for Warforged which notes they are susceptible to Enchantment unlike other constructs.

Umm... elves are vulnerable to Charm Person (though they receive a +2 bonus against it) and it doesn't say anything one way or the other for aasimars and tieflings even though they're native outsiders, not humanoids (which I would assume by RAW means that they are immune). So, there's a pretty good argument that warforged are, indeed, immune to the Spell, along with anything else that specifically targets humanoids. There are plenty of Enchantment spells that do not target humanoids, so saying that they are vulnerable to the school doesn't mean that they are vulnerable to the humanoid-targeting ones.

CASTLEMIKE
2008-09-01, 09:20 PM
Umm... elves are vulnerable to Charm Person (though they receive a +2 bonus against it) and it doesn't say anything one way or the other for aasimars and tieflings even though they're native outsiders, not humanoids (which I would assume by RAW means that they are immune). So, there's a pretty good argument that warforged are, indeed, immune to the Spell, along with anything else that specifically targets humanoids. There are plenty of Enchantment spells that do not target humanoids, so saying that they are vulnerable to the school doesn't mean that they are vulnerable to the humanoid-targeting ones.

Yes it specifically mentions that in FRCS regarding the Planetouched having the immunity to Charm Person. Good catch on the elf though.:smallsmile:

It's a minor point I can go either way in a game involving warforged. If I was playing in a Wizard or Sorcerer in a ECS game I would ask the DM and move on.

TheElfLord
2008-09-01, 09:29 PM
Still, I rather think the DMed goofed up by cheesing the Warforged by adding a Spiked Chain.
He didn't have a optimized party (as the Wizard showed): optimizing the enemies should only be done for equilibrium not to show off.

The Warforged didn't have a spiked chain, he had a glaive. The PC fighter had a spiked chain.

ken-do-nim
2008-09-01, 09:36 PM
RAW, it doesn't affect them. Anything else is a houserule.

IIRC, the wizard chose to cast charm person on a kobold precisely because she didn't believe it would affect the warforged.

Tallis
2008-09-01, 09:39 PM
And we All Know DMs only run RAW games.:smallbiggrin:
You've been basing all your assumptions on RAW up to this point. Why would you assume a houserule now?

Although it has nothing to do with this particular encounter I have to point out that anyone who didn't have the FRCS would have to assume, by RAW, that planetouched were not affected by charm person. That is a campaign specific ruling, I'm not sure you could consider it RAW outside of the Forgotten Realms.

Yahzi
2008-09-01, 09:40 PM
The PC fighter had a spiked chain.
Ugh. Then he deserved to die.

:smallbiggrin:

Tallis
2008-09-01, 09:49 PM
IIRC, the wizard chose to cast charm person on a kobold precisely because she didn't believe it would affect the warforged.

Do you happen to remember if the wizard had prep time to scribe scrolls? Would be nice to clear up the lack of scrolls thing.

MeklorIlavator
2008-09-01, 10:16 PM
MeklorIlavator: We did most of the sidequests, but some of them were not that successful. I missed some sessions, where they were supposed to kill the dragon etc...


Well then, you're Dm's running this right. If you don't do well on alot of the sidequests the adventure module itself says that this fight is gonna be tough. Tough luck on that part.

Yakk
2008-09-01, 10:51 PM
And we All Know DMs only run RAW games.:smallbiggrin:

Regardless, your complaint about the Wizard not winning the encounter?

Failed. You tossed out sleep. This deals with the Kobolds.

You then tried to charm person. It didn't work, because the target is immune -- he's a living construct, not a humanoid.

And if a single kobold was outside of the 10' radius burst (or a non-kobold got caught), the kobolds get to exponentially wake up each other.

Now if your wizard chose even one damage spell, that wizard runs out of memorized spells. Toss in a DM that doesn't grant down-time to scribe scrolls...

CASTLEMIKE
2008-09-01, 11:02 PM
You've been basing all your assumptions on RAW up to this point. Why would you assume a houserule now?

Although it has nothing to do with this particular encounter I have to point out that anyone who didn't have the FRCS would have to assume, by RAW, that planetouched were not affected by charm person. That is a campaign specific ruling, I'm not sure you could consider it RAW outside of the Forgotten Realms.

Edit: I have a few books but I don't play in ECS so I am unfamiliar with all the intrinsics of the various ECS races like the Warforged, ECS spends 4 pages describing Warforged. IMO it is a DC11 Arcana or Spellcraft skill check for a PC Wizard to know which player character races are Immune to Charm Person.

You missed my point or choose to ignore it all Player Character races that are immune to Charm Person in campaign setting source books are specifically noted as having Charm person immunity even when they are not humanoids and by RAW should be immune. Warforged which are not Immune to enchantment like normal constructs and are affected by spells that affect living creatures get no such mention. They do get a note that states they are affected by spells that target living creatures as well as those that target constructs. IMO that is gray and up to each DM/GM he rules and you play.

Take EPH Elan are Abberations and Half Giants are Giants but both races specifically get a note they are Immune to Charm Person because they are PC races.


Regardless, your complaint about the Wizard not winning the encounter?

Failed. You tossed out sleep. This deals with the Kobolds.

You then tried to charm person. It didn't work, because the target is immune -- he's a living construct, not a humanoid.

And if a single kobold was outside of the 10' radius burst (or a non-kobold got caught), the kobolds get to exponentially wake up each other.


My complaint is not that the Wizard didn't win the encounter only that it was played poorly she should have had more spellcasting options with scrolls the OP has never stated the Wizard was Prohibited from Scribing Spell Scrolls in game.

No I didn't play the Wizard. I didn't choose the Wizard's spells she did: Animate Rope, Charm Person and Grease with No Scrolls with other spells to cast.

My point is 7 Rounds of Raging Barbarian the party Wizard only cast 2 spells, she had Animate Rope memorized and No spell scrolls. Sometimes the dice roll badly the Monk rolled badly and got taken down. Cleric went to tend him and got taken out. 5 BBEGs on the F-2 took him down. TPK except for the Wizard who escaped with the Noble.

The Barbarian died when he stopped raging, so yes even a Magic Missile or Two which would definitely hit vice something like a Ray of Enfeeblement which might have missed cast from a scroll might have made the difference in the encounter although I would prefer something like Color Spray to deal with the Barbarian and any Kobolds who might have saved from a Sleep spell.

Yes 10' Burst and some might have saved but doubtful all would have and they came in through a doorway.



Now if your wizard chose even one damage spell, that wizard runs out of memorized spells. Toss in a DM that doesn't grant down-time to scribe scrolls...

That is another Assumption regarding No Downtime with this DM and we are on page 4 of the thread. The OP said the PCs were at 100% and questioned several times on the matter he has never stated the DM prohibited the Wizard from scribing scrolls.

Demonix
2008-09-02, 12:01 AM
A party Sorcerer/Wizard who should be starting the adventure at 100% without any effective usable spells or spell scrolls for the encounter in Scene 1 Act 1 who is out of "bullets" effectively reduces the party to 75% or 60% strength compared to a 5 man party.


This assumption makes no sense. If the wizard is out juice in what is supposed to be the first scene of an adventure, something is obviously WRONG. I think the OPs GM started this encounter in the middle of something else, and not as a new beginning, therefore not giving the party time to rest.

Additionally, your assumption that a war 2/barb 1 combatant is weaker than a fighter 3 sniping from across the street is just plain...wrong. In an urban situation it would be hilariously easy to take or make cover...not so with a raging warforged swinging axes at you with bonuses to hit, damage, and hit points. Also, depending on the crossbow, it would have an abyssmal rate of fire...1 shot every two rounds.

About the only thing I could see as saving the situation would be for a high str. character to initiate a grapple on the warforged, while the rest of the party beats up the kobolds.

Back to the OP: yes, you have the right to feel cheesed off about it. From how it sounds, I don't think that encounter ran the way it should have and the NPCs did not behave as you would expect them to. It also sounds like your DM got caught up in some TPK bloodlust. :)

Edit based on new info: Using a glaive? indoors? what kind of silliness is that? he wouldn't have room!
After gettting more info on how the fight went...yeah. That fight was a tactical comedy of errors. The monk should have tried a death from above while the fighter and cleric form a line, with the wizard in back doing the finger twiddling. Losing 2 people in the first round is devastating. I will maintain though that if the DM didn't mess with the adventure, it would have gone much better for the party.

PS: animate rope? whaaaaa?

monty
2008-09-02, 12:17 AM
I have a few books but I don't play in ECS so I am unfamiliar with all the intrinsics of the various ECS races like the Warforged.

You missed my point or choose to ignore it all Player Character races that are immune to Charm Person in campaign setting source books are specifically noted as having Charm person immunity even when they are not humanoids and by RAW should be immune. Warforged which are not Immune to enchantment like normal constructs and are affected by spells that affect living creatures get no such mention. They do get a note that states they are affected by spells that target living creatures as well as those that target constructs. IMO that is gray and up to each DM/GM he rules and you play.

Take EPH Elan are Abberations and Half Giants are Giants but both races specifically get a note they are Immune to Charm Person because they are PC races.

I don't follow your logic here. What does them being a "PC race" have to do with anything? Anything with a level adjustment is technically a playable race, but most of them don't specify that. It's just assumed from their type that they're immune (enough emphasis?). Why would warforged be special? Non-humanoid = unaffected by X Person spells. No exceptions, unless explicitly stated otherwise.

CASTLEMIKE
2008-09-02, 01:25 AM
This assumption makes no sense. If the wizard is out juice in what is supposed to be the first scene of an adventure, something is obviously WRONG.

I think the OPs GM started this encounter in the middle of something else, and not as a new beginning, therefore not giving the party time to rest.


You are absolutely right it makes no sense, I was responding to another poster who was positing the wizard was out of spells when she was starting the Adventure at the beginning at 100% with a full load of spells (3) first level: Animate Rope, Charm Person and Grease.

No that is incorrect as the OP has already posted in the thread they were starting out the adventure at 100%.


I don't follow your logic here. What does them being a "PC race" have to do with anything? Anything with a level adjustment is technically a playable race, but most of them don't specify that. It's just assumed from their type that they're immune (enough emphasis?). Why would warforged be special? Non-humanoid = unaffected by X Person spells. No exceptions, unless explicitly stated otherwise.

Quit twisting things the sentence is clear and qualified Talis wanted another source book quote believing FRCS was an exception regarding player character races.

Take EPH (Expanded Psionics Handbook) Elan are Abberations and Half Giants are Giants but both races specifically get a note they are Immune to Charm Person because they are PC races

Sholos
2008-09-02, 01:38 AM
The optimizing of the main BBEG does kind of raise the difficulty of the encounter. And by "kind of", I mean it was probably a main contributing factor to the TPK. As mentioned, if the Warforged had sat back and pelted bolts in, the fight would have been (essentially) against a gang of kobolds, and then against a single warforged. Not exactly difficult. As it was, it was a fight against a powerhouse of an enemy capable of easily one-shotting many members of the group plus a gang of kobolds. The odds start dropping somewhat quickly at that point.

Though I, too, would like to hear when (or if) the wizard had time to scribe spells, though the wizard in question may have chosen not to since XP was being cut in half (meaning the effective XP cost of a scroll is doubled).


On the "Should the warforged have been immune to Charm Person?" question:
How do the FR source books handle it? Do they specifically mention when a PC race is immune to Charm Person? If not, then I think that is the standard we should be going on, not the Psionics Handbook. Otherwise, I can point to Savage Species where nothing is ever mentioned as being specifically immune to Charm Person (that I remember), and everything in their is a PC race (kinda the point of the book).

CASTLEMIKE
2008-09-02, 02:35 AM
The optimizing of the main BBEG does kind of raise the difficulty of the encounter. And by "kind of", I mean it was probably a main contributing factor to the TPK. As mentioned, if the Warforged had sat back and pelted bolts in, the fight would have been (essentially) against a gang of kobolds, and then against a single warforged. Not exactly difficult. As it was, it was a fight against a powerhouse of an enemy capable of easily one-shotting many members of the group plus a gang of kobolds. The odds start dropping somewhat quickly at that point.

Though I, too, would like to hear when (or if) the wizard had time to scribe spells, though the wizard in question may have chosen not to since XP was being cut in half (meaning the effective XP cost of a scroll is doubled).


On the "Should the warforged have been immune to Charm Person?" question:

How do the FR source books handle it? Do they specifically mention when a PC race is immune to Charm Person? If not, then I think that is the standard we should be going on, not the Psionics Handbook. Otherwise, I can point to Savage Species where nothing is ever mentioned as being specifically immune to Charm Person (that I remember), and everything in their is a PC race (kinda the point of the book).

Maybe if he had sniped at the Wizard from the door way not a whole lot of difference in how the encounter would have turned out. He was still a CR3 warrior.

It should be a DC11 Arcana or Knowledge check to know if any PC races are Immune to Charm Person for a spellcaster who kows the Charm Person spell.

Yes.

Consider the Expanded Psionics Handbook Elan are Abberations and Half Giants are Giants but both races specifically get a note they are Immune to Charm Person because they are PC races. Warforged do not have a note specifying they are Immune to Charm Person they do have a note they are not immune to mind-affecting spells and abilities and as living constructs can be affected by spells that target living creatures as well as by those that target constructs.

Listed Immunites are to poisons, sleep effects, paralysis, disease, nausea, fatigue, exhaustion, effects that cause the sickened condition and energy drain.

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/glossary&term=Glossary_dnd_livingconstructsubtype&alpha=

A living construct is a new subtype of construct, a created being given sentience and free will through powerful and complex creation enchantments. Living constructs combine aspects of both constructs and living creatures, as detailed below.

Which living creature are they most like? Humanoids.:smallsmile:

Humanoid Type
A humanoid usually has two arms, two legs, and one head, or a humanlike torso, arms, and a head. Humanoids have few or no supernatural or extraordinary abilities, but most can speak and usually have well-developed societies. They usually are Small or Medium. Every humanoid creature also has a subtype.

Eldariel
2008-09-02, 03:24 AM
Charm Person is very specific: "...makes a humanoid creatures..."

So, on the simple fact that Warforged lack the Humanoid-type, they're immune. I don't really see there being much more to this than that - the rules are uniform on this case.

Sholos
2008-09-02, 04:00 AM
Maybe if he had sniped at the Wizard from zthe door way not a whole lot of difference in how the encounter would have turned out. He was still a CR3 warrior.
Hmm, let's look at the differences.

Fighter 3 with X-bow vs Fighter 2/Barbarian 1 with Glaive

Fighter 3 gets one attack per round at most, and doesn't threaten anywhere. Will not be one-shotting anybody. That's about it until the kobolds fall.

Fighter 2/Barbarian 1 has the same base stats. He also has rage, increased movement (though that probably wasn't a factor) and more HP. Then there's the fact that he's in melee, with Combat Reflexes. Means he gets a lot more attacks (and more hits) than what the module originally called for. It also means each of those hits (the ones he's getting a lot more of) do a lot more damage.

In short? Going by listed CR is a crappy way of building an encounter. You might as well say that since a Fighter 15 and a Wizard 15 are the same CR, they're both the same difficulty.


It should be a DC11 Arcana or Knowledge check to know if any PC races are Immune to Charm Person for a spellcaster who kows the Charm Person spell.
Why? I'd think that'd be one of the first things you learn in your wizarding career.

Master: You know those big walking constructs? Yeah, they're immune to Charm. At least the weaker version of it.
Apprentice: So, it's a bad idea to try and use it on them? I'll remember that.


Yes.
Yes what?


Consider the Expanded Psionics Handbook Elan are Abberations and Half Giants are Giants but both races specifically get a note they are Immune to Charm Person because they are PC races. Warforged do not have a note specifying they are Immune to Charm Person they do have a note they are not immune to mind-affecting spells and abilities and as living constructs can be affected by spells that target living creatures as well as by those that target constructs.

Is the EPH a Forgotten Realms book? If not, then I don't particularly care what it says. In the MM, planetouched aren't specifically excluded from Charm Person. So it really does matter which source you're using. So I ask again. How does the main FR source book handle these things?

pjackson
2008-09-02, 05:30 AM
It sounds like some small mistakes and some bad luck combined to lead to the TPK.

The DM's mistake was to beef up the encounter too much against a party containing at most one highly optimized character (the fighter). But a spiked chain fighter is is an excuse for giving an opponent a reach weapon and combat reflexes.

Being a monk is a role-playing decision - not a mistake. D&D is a RPG not a tactical wargame. He took a reasonable risk and failed due to bad rolls.

I don't understand why the cleric provoked an attack of opportunity. To heal the monk he should have cast the spell whilst out of range of the Ftr/Bar (if necessary using a 5' step backwards) then moved to the monk and touched him.
What did he do that provoked the AoO? Did he move and then cast?

Since they knew there was a risk of being attacked by kobolds the wizard should have been prepared with a sleep or color spray. He should also have had a few scrolls for use in emergencies. (The only excuse is if you have not had much downtime since level 1). There is a big difference between a wizard who has prepared the right spells and one who has not. A selection of scrolls provides insurance for when you don't have the right ones prepared.

monty
2008-09-02, 10:21 AM
Quit twisting things the sentence is clear and qualified Talis wanted another source book quote believing FRCS was an exception regarding player character races.

Take EPH (Expanded Psionics Handbook) Elan are Abberations and Half Giants are Giants but both races specifically get a note they are Immune to Charm Person because they are PC races

*sigh* Let me say it again. Charm Person only affects humanoids. Warforged are constructs. Constructs are not humanoids. Therefore, Warforged are immune to Charm Person. Period.

Also, where are you getting this notion of a "PC race" that's somehow different from the other races?

ken-do-nim
2008-09-02, 11:22 AM
Being a monk is a role-playing decision - not a mistake. D&D is a RPG not a tactical wargame. He took a reasonable risk and failed due to bad rolls.


He was tumbling in to try and stun the foe*. Had he not failed his tumble check this would have become a much different story.

* at my suggestion :smallsigh:



I don't understand why the cleric provoked an attack of opportunity. To heal the monk he should have cast the spell whilst out of range of the Ftr/Bar (if necessary using a 5' step backwards) then moved to the monk and touched him.
What did he do that provoked the AoO? Did he move and then cast?


Yes, move & cast. I don't remember whether it was a failure to cast defensively or a failure to think to cast defensively.



A selection of scrolls provides insurance for when you don't have the right ones prepared.

To the best of my recollection the wizard opted to save xp for the most part when it came to scroll making, but I thought she had a few. I just don't remember what happened with them. Sorry.


Ugh. Then he deserved to die.

:smallbiggrin:

Aw, come on; I wanted to try it [spiked chain] out, live a little, you know?