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View Full Version : So, tell me whats good about Bards



Stormthorn
2008-08-31, 04:04 PM
Im fairly new to DnD and i have a bard because thats the character i wanted to roleplay.
But people seem to care mostly about how many +'s they get or the DPR they do with their lame twined empowered maximized orbs of fire so they can hit for maximum velveeta.

So, tell me if there are any overpowered cheesy things i can do as a bard.

insecure
2008-08-31, 04:09 PM
Personally, I don't know any cheesy things you can do with bards; they are pretty much seen as the weakest class in 3.5. I like to play bards, but that's mostly because I love to roleplaying, not because they dish out a lot of damage.

KillianHawkeye
2008-08-31, 04:10 PM
Since you seemed to exempt yourself from the people who "seem to care mostly about how many +'s they get", then why do you want to cheese up your Bard at all? Don't give in to peer pressure. :smallwink:

EDIT:

Personally, I don't know any cheesy things you can do with bards; they are pretty much seen as the weakest class in 3.5. I like to play bards, but that's mostly because I love to roleplaying, not because they dish out a lot of damage.

Bards are definitely NOT seen as the weakest class in 3.5. I'll direct you to such wonders at the Monk, Soulknife, and CW Samurai.

Bards are actually somewhat useful (though not over-powered), especially if you have a larger group size. They casts spells, so they are already better than a Fighter. But the key to Bard optimization (at least as far as I've seen here on the boards) lies in PrCs.

Mastikator
2008-08-31, 04:10 PM
You go into a dungeon and sing at the horrible monsters. Can you tell me with a straight face that it is not awesome?

hamishspence
2008-08-31, 04:11 PM
Anything with diplomacy overload. However, bards do not do this especially well.

Bard as support might be more useful: making the rest of the party better.

BRC
2008-08-31, 04:12 PM
First of all, Bards are not a weak class, a bard can be a great help to an party.
Bards are the class you want somebody else to play, a bard's purpose is to make everybody else cooler. As a bard, you are at your best when you are sitting back and playing music, that music may give the fighter the edge he needs to behead that orc, but it's the fighter doing the beheading.

Kyeudo
2008-08-31, 04:13 PM
Bards are easy to cheese with the right splatbooks. An optimized bard can turn a town full of commoners into an army with a BAB in the high teens and ridiculous bonus energy damage on every attack, while outfighting a fighter.

Bards are only weak in Core only.

sonofzeal
2008-08-31, 04:14 PM
Im fairly new to DnD and i have a bard because thats the character i wanted to roleplay.
But people seem to care mostly about how many +'s they get or the DPR they do with their lame twined empowered maximized orbs of fire so they can hit for maximum velveeta.

So, tell me if there are any overpowered cheesy things i can do as a bard.
Bards are generally underpowered. They're decent at a lot of things, but excell at few (except lying; Bards are hands-down the best liers in the core game). To be effective, Bards need to specialize in something, be it Combat or Skills or Spells or whatnot. Possibly the most effective Bard build is to maximixe the power of Bardic Music, especially Inspire Courage. With the right array of feats and equipment, Inspire Courage turns from a minor boost into "teh hax", providing upwards of +10 to both attack and damage.

Spiryt
2008-08-31, 04:14 PM
Personally, I don't know any cheesy things you can do with bards; they are pretty much seen as the weakest class in 3.5. I like to play bards, but that's mostly because I love to roleplaying, not because they dish out a lot of damage.

Eh, as far as I know Monk is considered the weakest.

And the bard is actually some kind of caster (more than Rangies and Paladins anyway), so with decent choice of spells he is quite decent too.

And of course, like hamishspence said, if GM treats Diplomacy rules completely literally, and allow to use it at anything you ecounter freely, it's very broken, especially with Half Elf Bard.

Starbuck_II
2008-08-31, 04:15 PM
Personally, I don't know any cheesy things you can do with bards; they are pretty much seen as the weakest class in 3.5. I like to play bards, but that's mostly because I love to roleplaying, not because they dish out a lot of damage.

Gaara from Naruto was a Bard. Yes, the Sand Ninja who killed many.

Asheram
2008-08-31, 04:25 PM
While bards are... interesting to play in combat. They're hilarious to roleplay.

The scene is of a room with four players and a DM. We'd been playing for about 6 hours and everyone were getting quite tired and even more silly.

So, we were at this party sponsored by a tradesman in town, everyone is drunk and having a good time When the bard in party looks up towards the stage where a small band of musicants step up.
He downs the glass of wine he's holding and walks towards the stage. The DM asks him what he's doing, and he responds "I'm going to battle the lute-player."
Of course he wins with a divine roll of 20. Adding 15 from his skill to it while the DM's jaw drops.
DM: "... 35? Ok... You start to play and the whole room turns and looks at you in wonder. You bask in the glory of actually playing 'The best song in the world' while noticing that the other bard takes his lute under his arm and walks off the stage with his tail between his legs, not even going to give it a shot."

Thrud
2008-08-31, 04:30 PM
What's good about bards?

They get laid. A lot.

'nuff said.

:smallbiggrin:

Stupendous_Man
2008-08-31, 04:31 PM
Villian: I have you now!
Bard: Guys, exit stage left! (One, two, three, four...)
Entire Party: It's just a jump to the left, and a step to the ri-i-i-i-ight! *Dances off*

sonofzeal
2008-08-31, 04:38 PM
Villian: I have you now!
Bard: Guys, exit stage left! (One, two, three, four...)
Entire Party: It's just a jump to the left, and a step to the ri-i-i-i-ight! *Dances off*
Ah, but what's the Will DC vs being driven insa-a-a-ane?

TheCountAlucard
2008-08-31, 04:55 PM
...I'm surprised no one's mentioned Glibness yet... a +30 bonus to Bluff checks? I mean, c'mon!

There are two kinds of DMs out there...
1) Those who forbid Glibness in their games, and
2) Those who haven't encountered some of the more innovative uses of the spell.

Da Beast
2008-08-31, 04:56 PM
A bard can be a decent melee combatant with the right build. Inspirational boost (1st level spell from Complete Adventurer) and Song of the Heart (feat from Eberron Campaign Setting) will give you a nice boost to inspire courage. Snowflake Wardance (feat from Frostburn) lets you add charisma to attack rolls. Arcane Strike (feat from Complete Warrior) lets you sacrifice an arcane spell for a bonus to hit and extra d4s to damage equal to the spell's level. Add in some buffs like haste and you should be doing respectable damage.

BRC
2008-08-31, 04:57 PM
Bard

Class features

Rhythm: At first level Bards gain Rhythm.
Music: At first level Bards gain Music.


Who could ask for anything more?

Mastikator
2008-08-31, 05:01 PM
To be serious, Bards are versatile and excel in social situations. They should be inferior in a fight. I don't think all classes should be focused primarily, or even competent in battle. To me the game isn't about hacking and slashing, or having the most powerful character. It's all about role-playing, baby!

holywhippet
2008-08-31, 05:02 PM
Bards tend not to excel in any given role except maybe for talking, but their versatility makes them very useful in large parties. They have the basic healing spells in their class spell list so you can get them a wand of cure X wounds and let them be a backup healer when the cleric/druid is busy, incapacitated or otherwise unavailable. Failed your regular knowledge check? You have bardic knowledege as a backup option. Some of the bard songs available to you are very useful and versatile.

Fenix_of_Doom
2008-08-31, 05:03 PM
Gaara from Naruto was a Bard. Yes, the Sand Ninja who killed many.

No Gaara is a ninja that does things witch can't be reasonably represented in D&D, picking a character you think is cool and claiming you can represent that character with a random class does not make the class any more powerful or cooler anyway.

Bard's are a pretty fun class anyway, something with dragons, inspiration and adding +Xd6 elemental damage is usually considered fairly good.

chiasaur11
2008-08-31, 05:15 PM
Bards can nail hot redheads and ninja chicks if they want.
What more could a class reasonably expect?

Tengu_temp
2008-08-31, 05:16 PM
Gaara from Naruto was a Bard. Yes, the Sand Ninja who killed many.

*chika chika chika chika* Gaara of the funk!

Stupendous_Man
2008-08-31, 05:20 PM
*chika chika chika chika* Gaara of the funk!

Never say that again. You are not worthy of the funk.

ocato
2008-08-31, 05:21 PM
Crack open the spell compendium. There are spells in there that will make your bard insane.

Inspirational Boost +Song of the Heart is enough to get a good wad of inspire courage going, which coupled with a harmonizing Crystal Echoblade (MiC) (keeps singing for you and adds sonic damage equal to half your bard level) sets you up for some decent damage. My favorite bards are effectively able to buff himself/the party, debuff his opponents, and keep up in melee without being the best but not being useless. Oh, and this typically has little or no effect on how good of a face you are, which is to say, really very good. I could get knee deep into the details, but I think it's better to let you imagine your own character.

Sublime Chord PrC: Turn your bard casting into Sorcerer casting. Very popular.

Ned the undead
2008-08-31, 05:24 PM
Glibness. You want to know something else? Glibness.

Eldariel
2008-08-31, 05:28 PM
Bards are solid when built well. You can focus on casting, singing or fighting yourself. Generally you'll combine two of those focuses - the archetypal bard is a caster/singer. The easiest thing to pimp out is "Inspire Courage" and that ability can quickly reach ridiculous numbers (What do you mean all good guys get +10 to hit and +10d6+10 to damage?!). The key to this are various items that improve the Inspire Courage, "Song of the Heart"-feat from Eberron Campaign Settings and "Words of Creation"-feat from Book of Exalted Deeds (warning: requires being very good).

As far as casting goes, it's hard to improve upon the core casting, but Prestige Classes can do it better. More accurately, the class named "Sublime Chord" in Complete Arcane gets you casting akin to that of a Sorcerer (although fewer spells per day and a bit slower progression), while giving you handy songs. A generic caster Bard would be Bard 9/Virtuoso 1/Sublime Chord 2/Virtuoso +8. Virtuoso is used as it can advance Sublime Chord-casting (while improving your Inspire Courage and gaining you more Bardic Music-uses and a few new songs).

For fighting, the "Snowflake Wardance" from Frostburn is the starting point. It allows you to use Charisma for combat by expending Bardic Music-uses making you suddenly very competent in melee. Combine that with your boosting songs (they last 5 rounds after you stop singing), boosting spells and Two-Weapon Fighting and go to town.


Also note that Bards get the two most powerful skills in all of D&D:
Use Magic Device
Diplomacy

Diplomacy can, when maxed, just end games if not errata'd, and Use Magic Device allows you to access any spells on need-basis through Wands (and Scrolls). The other skills on your list are great too (of course, remember to max out Perform) - all the perception-skills, talking skills and so on.


So yea, choose what you want your Bard to be good at, focus on that and you'll be good at that. Even in core, just simple Hide>Fascinate can be incredible for pre-empting encounters. They get much better out of core though and especially much stronger at focusing. In Core, you're pretty much stuck as a Jack of All Trades, but outside Core you can specialize in one of your many areas of expertise. I'll also mention Combat Medic (Heroes of Battle)-class in case you're interested in being a healer in combat. I don't suggest it since it kills the whole singing and skillmonkeying-role (takes 5 levels with Int+2 skills, poor list and no Bardic Music), but it gets you Heal-spell castable spontaneously, so it isn't totally worthless.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-08-31, 05:31 PM
Don't forget to snag the Lingering Song feat, which makes your music last for a full minute after you stop singing. Inspire Courage(maxed)+Inspire Greatness+Casting means your party auto-wins.

Stupendous_Man
2008-08-31, 05:38 PM
Don't forget to snag the Lingering Song feat, which makes your music last for a full minute after you stop singing. Inspire Courage(maxed)+Inspire Greatness+Casting means your party auto-wins.

Melodic Casting: cast spells while singing, perform in place of concentration checks

Tengu_temp
2008-08-31, 05:45 PM
Never say that again. You are not worthy of the funk.

"Oh, yes I am."
http://pu.i.wp.pl/?k=MzM2MzQ0MzgsNDkzNDg3&f=ppp2.jpg

Anyway, Eldaniel has given some very solid guidelines to being an optimized bard.

Lyndworm
2008-08-31, 05:51 PM
Villian: I have you now!
Bard: Guys, exit stage left! (One, two, three, four...)
Entire Party: It's just a jump to the left, and a step to the ri-i-i-i-ight! *Dances off*


Ah, but what's the Will DC vs being driven insa-a-a-ane?

An i-cookie to everyone who got that.

I have to go stat up Tim Curry, now. Thanks a lot.

Zack

sonofzeal
2008-08-31, 06:17 PM
...I'm surprised no one's mentioned Glibness yet... a +30 bonus to Bluff checks? I mean, c'mon!

There are two kinds of DMs out there...
1) Those who forbid Glibness in their games, and
2) Those who haven't encountered some of the more innovative uses of the spell.
I did refer to it indirectly when I said that, in core, the one thing Bards really excell at is lying. Outside of core... Beguilers get Glibness too, and it'd be a hard-fought battle either way.

Personally, I'm actually in the second camp. I'm fully aware of the potential for abuse, but all the players I've ever had as a DM have been thoroughly aware that I am a far better optimizer than they are (with the possible exception of Johnny), and if they ever try to pull anything too broken then I'll start throwing broken things back, and that is a game they cannot hope to win. :xykon:

Stormthorn
2008-08-31, 06:23 PM
Since you seemed to exempt yourself from the people who "seem to care mostly about how many +'s they get", then why do you want to cheese up your Bard at all? Don't give in to peer pressure.

Well, i was trying for wit and support, but the one time in our dungeon i went to use diplomacy (to get a monster that was terrified of us to tell us how to get to the treasure we wanted) the DM suddenly decided the mooks didnt speak languages that they reasonably should.

And at level 2 that gives me a few uses of my song followed by lots of disarm attempts with my scourge whip.

When i hit three im taking one level in barbarian. It will make me much faster than the silly dwarves in our group and give me rage.

I also want to get the leadership feat but my charisma is only 15 and im not level 6. (look, 15 was my highest roll. As it was the DM let me re-roll my 4 (2,1,1,1 drop lowest)

SOMEONE LINK ME: 'Snowflake wardance' so i can show it to the DM. He let me use Force of Personality even tho it isnt in the core or Forgotten Realms book (which is all we have available to us in actual print)

Spiryt
2008-08-31, 06:30 PM
Snowflake Wardance (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Snowflake_Wardance,all)

Seem a bit weirdish (dancing sword slashing? WTF?) but makes sense for some "skaldic" type of fighting bard, and seems balanced.

Stormthorn
2008-08-31, 06:51 PM
Seem a bit weirdish (dancing sword slashing? WTF?) but makes sense for some "skaldic" type of fighting bard, and seems balanced.

Well, my bard is gonna take a levle in barbarian and that and his scourge both make sense with my characters backstory (a life of slavery and sexual abuse can do bad things to you, man.) so turning into a whirlwind with sharp edges while i rage doesnt seem to farfetched. (if i take a level in Horizon Walker i can be immune to the fatigue too).

Stupendous_Man
2008-08-31, 06:53 PM
would that make him a bardbarian?

ZekeArgo
2008-08-31, 06:59 PM
Lets not forget the dragonfire inspiration builds out there, which allow you to not only add a horrendous amount of +#d6 fire(and possibly other damage types depending on the sources you have availible), but also stacks with items such as the crystal echoblade so you can have both inspire courage and DF Inspiration up at once.

Lyndworm
2008-08-31, 07:00 PM
The accepted vernacular is Bardarian, actually. No second b. :smallamused:

Zack

Stormthorn
2008-08-31, 07:12 PM
would that make him a bardbarian?

He first killed someone after totally losing it with one of the slavers and then spent a long time on the run in the desert. The time int he desert and the berserking murder explain the hitpoints and the rage.

The fast movement is mostly because its funny to be so much faster than the dwarves, but i suppose even that makes sense at a stretch because he spent a lot of time running.

And adding the second B sounds cooler.

1of3
2008-09-01, 08:14 AM
Bards qualify for the Divine Inspiration feat (from Dragon #333). Take a level of bard, then become a cleric. => Cleric with full bardic music.

Better yet, take two levels of bard, so you are able to cast level 1 bard spell. That is Inspirational Boost (Spell Comendium). Take Lyrical Spell (Complete Adventurer) so you can cast Inspirational Boost and your other bardic spells more often.


Now matter how you build your bard, make sure you have an assortment of masterwork instruments (Complete Adventurer), and some way to extend your music without actively playing an instrument or singing (Lingering Song feat, Animate Instrument spell).