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Arros Winhadren
2008-08-31, 09:18 PM
Templates are weird sometimes, and piling them onto a base creature can make some pretty crazy monsters. We fought a housecat named Mr. Gibbles the other day. Mr. Gibbles was covered in acidic ooze and had long tentacles. And heavy DR.

Another of my friends babbled for about 20 minutes about how to apply multiple templates to a warforged to end up with a normal winged human with no level adjustment.

What sorts of things have you seen/encountered/murdered?

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-08-31, 09:32 PM
There's the CR 45 Celestial Paragon Terrasque that was the topic of the infamous "Antimatter" thread, That Damn Crab, and others. Templates can be lots of lulz.

Coplantor
2008-08-31, 09:35 PM
Well, this was an idea I had, it was a raptoran with winged creature template and half celestial. The idea was to have a 6 winged humanoid with feather wings. You can add more wings by taking the variant favoured soul that gives wings at lvl 11. And if you dont care about the type of wings, you can also add half dragon, half fiend and warlock levels. That way you have a guy with 4 pair of feather wings and 3 pairs of bat-like wings. 14 wings in total.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-08-31, 09:39 PM
Well, this was an idea I had, it was a raptoran with winged creature template and half celestial. The idea was to have a 6 winged humanoid with feather wings. You can add more wings by taking the variant favoured soul that gives wings at lvl 11. And if you dont care about the type of wings, you can also add half dragon, half fiend and warlock levels. That way you have a guy with 4 pair of feather wings and 3 pairs of bat-like wings. 14 wings in total.2 problems. IIRC, some of those templates require large size, and I'm pretty sure you don't qualify for Enlarge Person, and second, 14 wings would make for awful aerodynamics. You'd fall, not fly. But fun, I'd give you that.

Xenogears
2008-08-31, 09:49 PM
Well, this was an idea I had, it was a raptoran with winged creature template and half celestial. The idea was to have a 6 winged humanoid with feather wings. You can add more wings by taking the variant favoured soul that gives wings at lvl 11. And if you dont care about the type of wings, you can also add half dragon, half fiend and warlock levels. That way you have a guy with 4 pair of feather wings and 3 pairs of bat-like wings. 14 wings in total.

Theres also two wing grafts in the Fiend Folio (one feathered one bat).

Personally I liked my idea for a Psuedonatural Hecatontieries. All it's 100 arms turn into tentacles and it gains a few extra ones. Besides being ungodly powerful it a giant massive creature with 50 heads and over a hundred tentacles.

Coplantor
2008-08-31, 09:49 PM
I was never going to use it anyway, it was just a bizzare idea i got, the mental picture is awesome.

Another bizzare template is the pseudonatural, combine that with an illithid and add half fiend and you have cthulhu.

Also, using the half something/something rules that are posted somewhere in this forums, get a half dwarf/warforged who likes pillaging, burning villages and drinking, put some levels of ninja and dread pirate, turn him into a free willed undead (like a necropolitan) and then add the pseudonatural. Congratulations, now you have a viking/cyborg/pirate/ninja/zombie/robot/offspring of the great old ones (cthulhu).

That's a masterpiece (and yeah, probably you cant add necropolitan to a half warforged, but let me keep this one please).

Recaiden
2008-08-31, 09:53 PM
Titanic tauric fish/chicken.
Paragon half-fey flying squirrel.

But, there are some truly insane ideas. (effigy 27 halfs dragon)

black dragoon
2008-08-31, 09:59 PM
A necron. We used a warforged with the shadow and fast healing somehow. I don't remember the exact template at the moment. IT COULD NOT DIE.

The Demented One
2008-08-31, 10:00 PM
In a high level game I'm running, my players recently disposed of a Tarrasque Ghoul (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=58232) that had been made into an Arcane Amalgam (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10219) with a Nightcrawler. Damn fun, although it definitely didn't live up to the advertised CR of 23.

Thurbane
2008-08-31, 10:02 PM
I did once template a half-farspawn, vampiric, spellwarped gibbering mouther - but it ended up as quite high CR with really bad HD...

CASTLEMIKE
2008-08-31, 10:04 PM
A necron. We used a warforged with the shadow and fast healing somehow. I don't remember the exact template at the moment. IT COULD NOT DIE.

Maybe a HoH Soul-Locked, Necron Shadow Creature Warforged. Shadow Creatures can have Fast Healing.

black dragoon
2008-08-31, 10:07 PM
It may be that...Not sure.

Xenogears
2008-08-31, 10:13 PM
Half Dragon (black) War Troll. Not too weird but it regenerated from everything but acid. Which it is immune to. So you could knock it out or you could drown or starve it.

Which brings up a question I have been pondering. If they can regenerate from being sliced into pieces how come they can still be drowned? I can understand starvation. Not eating means no fuel for the regen. But drowning? So if their lungs are ripped out they are fun, but as long as the lungs are in their body they need to breathe? What kinda logic is that.

Also Psuedonatural Paragon Monks. Thats fast. Normal lvl 20 monk has 90 ft speed. Paragon makes it 270ft. Psuedonatural makes it either 450ft (by doubling the original 90ft and adding it to the 270) or 540 (by doubling the 270) Not sure which way it stacks. Then you run (with run feat) for either 2250ft or 2700ft in six seconds. Thats either 375 or 450 feet per second. Now that is one fast horrible monster.

Rei_Jin
2008-08-31, 10:16 PM
I like putting the Multi-headed Template on the tarrasque. It's a little difficult to imagine (seeing how much of its body is taken up by its head) when you realise you can add another 29 heads to it.

Yes, the 30 headed Tarrasque.

I've tried to combine images of a hydra with that of a tarrasque, and it just doesn't work. But it does look hilarious

Jack_Simth
2008-08-31, 10:18 PM
Strangest creature ever?

I'd have to go with the Ikea Tarrasque (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=20160) applied to a Hellwasp Swarm (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/swarm.htm#hellwaspSwarm).

Recaiden
2008-08-31, 10:22 PM
Strangest creature ever?

I'd have to go with the Ikea Tarrasque (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=20160) applied to a Hellwasp Swarm (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/swarm.htm#hellwaspSwarm).

I don't know, the other ikea Tarrasque, with a swarm of bats, each with clay golem wings, was pretty darn wierd. Also, only killable by disintegrate, which does 1d10 damage.

Rei_Jin
2008-08-31, 10:25 PM
Ah, my creations still live

*sniff*

I'm so proud!

TheCountAlucard
2008-08-31, 11:08 PM
How about a fiendish dragon that is equal parts black, red, blue, white, green, bronze, brass, gold, silver, and copper? Oh, and is also part-troll.

Jack_Simth
2008-08-31, 11:13 PM
I don't know, the other ikea Tarrasque, with a swarm of bats, each with clay golem wings, was pretty darn wierd. Also, only killable by disintegrate, which does 1d10 damage.
The reason for choosing the Hellwasp Swarm:
It's immune to anything targeted - and all the things on the list that can hurt it? They all have to be targeted. Such a hellwasp swarm is completely unkillable provided it doesn't make use of it's Inhabit ability.

Samakain
2008-08-31, 11:29 PM
Had a BBG cook up his own dragon mount in a game i was playing in. it was a base create black dragon, he accelerated its aging process, combined it while still an egg with goo from both red and blue dragons. The thing that emerged was a monstrosity. apparently he had doubled up on the half dragon template on top of a black dragon...2 steps above adult i believe.

So we did the right thing

We killed it

DM didn't wanna let go, so he had the BBG patch it back together with golem parts. adding the half golem template to it, Iron Golem fyi : \

so again, we kill it

barely

So the mofo turns it into a dracolich... : \ I forget the dragons name, it was impressive sounding, but we kept calling him Fluffy Munchkins,

Other than that was a half red dragon troll, acid its only takedown, but thats been said before.

i did once do a tauric cross between a goblin and a direbat, then added the half fiend template. Gobats, man, they rocked.

Anxe
2008-08-31, 11:33 PM
I've actually played with templates a lot before and came up with two fearsome beasts. One, an uber red dragon wyrm, and the other, a little thing I like to call, "The Horrible Goblin." Here are their complete stats for your enjoyment.
Kepeskixen
(Firestorm)

Thirty-Headed Spellwarped Half-Fiend Phrenic Red Dragon Great Wyrm
Colossal Outsider (Extraplanar, Fire, Psionic)
Hit Dice: 78d12+3276 (3783)
Initiative: +7 (+3 Dex, +4 Improved Initiative)
Speed: 40’, fly 200’ (good)
Armor Class: 76 (-8 size, +3 Dex, +71 natural) touch 5, flat-footed 73
Base Attack/Grapple: +78/+111
Attack: Bite +95 melee (4d8+25)
Full Attack: 30 Bites +95 melee (4d8+25), 2 Claws +95 melee (4d6+14), 2 Wings +95 melee (2d8+14), and Tail Slap +95 melee (4d6+35)
Space/Reach: 30’/20’ (30’ with bite)
Special Attacks: Breath Weapon, Crush, Frightful Presence, Spell-Like Abilities, Smite Good, Tail Sweep.
Special Qualities: Blindsense 60’, DR 20/Magic, Evasion, Immunity to Fire, Sleep, and Paralysis, Keen Senses, Lernaean, PR 88, Psi-Like Abilities, Resistance to Acid, Cold, and Electricity 10, Spells, Spell Absorbtion, Spell-Like Abilities, SR 89, Weakness to Cold, 50% Miss Chance(Displacement Cloak).
Saves: Fort +64, Ref +25, Will +31.
Abilities: Str 53:+21, Dex 16:+3, Con 95:+42, Int 36:+13, Wis 29:+9, Cha 32:+11
Skills: Concentration +123, Diplomacy +110, Escape Artist +83, Gather Information +20 Intimidate +92, Knowledge (All Ten) +94, Listen +148, Search +152, Sense Motive +89, Spellcraft +22, Spot +148, Survival +27, Use Magic Device +92.
Feats: Cleave, Clinging Breath, Combat Relfexes, Dire Charge, Final Strike, Flyby Attack, Great Cleave, Greater Multigrab, Improved Initiative, Improved Manuverabiltiy 3, Improved Multiattack, Improved Snatch, Large And In Charge, Maximize Breath, Multiattack, Multisnatch, Power Attack, Recover Breath 4, Snatch, Snatch And Swallow, Spellcasting Harrier, Tail Sweep Knockdown, Wingover, Wingstorm.
Environment: Any
Organization: Solitary
Challenge Rating: 44
Treasure: Triple Standard
Alignment: Always Chaotic Evil
Advancement: 79+ HD

Combat

Breath Weapon (Su): Using a breath weapon is a standard action. Each head can breath in the same round and uses a separate roll for when they can breath again. Each of Firestorm’s heads can only breath every 1d4 rounds. A 70’ cone of fire dealing 240 damage with a reflex save (DC 91). Foes that were hit by the initial blast take half the damage they did before the next round. A full-round action may be made to negate this effect by attempting the saving throw again. A +2 is given for rolling on the ground to put out the flames. Jumping in water will not extinguish them.
Crush (Ex): This attack only affects Large or smaller creatures. It allows Firestorm to land on top of enemies while flying. It affects anyone who is inside his space. The affected creatures must make a reflex save (DC 91) or be automatically pinned. In the subsequent rounds they are grappled and Firestorm can deal 4d8+31 damage as a grapple action.
Final Strike (Ex): When Firestorm is killed his body explodes in a blast of fiery elemental destruction. This effect deals 20d6 points of fire damage to everything within 60’ with a reflex save (DC 91) for half, and it deals 38d6 points of light damage to everything within a 60’ radius with a reflex save for half at the same DC. This effect leaves Firestorm’s corpse unsuitable for a raise dead or resurrection. A true resurrection, wish, or miracle will restore him to life however.
Frightful Presence (Ex): This ability takes affect automatically whenever Firestorm attacks, charges, or flies overhead. Creatures within a 360’ radius must make a will save (DC 59) if they have fewer than 78 hit dice. A creature that succeeds is immune to Firestorm’s frightful presence for the next 24 hours. Affected creatures with 4 or less hit dice are panicked for 4d6 rounds. Affected creatures with 5 or more hit dice are shaken for 4d6 rounds. Other dragons ignore this ability.
Large And In Charge (Ex): After Firestorm hits a creature with an attack of opportunity for moving through his reach he may make an opposed strength check to move that creature back to where it started entering his range. He gets a +4 for every size category he is bigger than the creature and a +1 for every 5 points of damage the attack of opportunity dealt. The creature pushed cannot move any farther this round.
Lernaean (Ex): Firestorm’s body is immune to damage. All of his heads must be severed to kill him. Each head has 126 hit points. Whenever a head is sever or killed two new ones will grow in 1d4 rounds. Firestorm may never have more than 60 heads and the extra ones wither and die within a day of sprouting. To prevent a severed head from re-growing 5 points of acid damage must penetrate his resistance and sear the stump (Touch AC 19). Death spells will also prevent one head from re-growing if they kill it.
Psi-Like Abilities: 3/day – defensive precognition, empty mind, intellect fortress, mind thrust (DC 22), psionic teleport. 1/day – aversion (DC 23), body adjustment, brain lock (DC 23), concussion blast, energy current (DC 26), fission, force screen, psionic dominate (DC 25), psychic crush (DC 26), tower of iron will, ultrablast (DC 28). Manifester level 78.
Snatch (Ex): Firestorm can choose to grapple any Huge or smaller creature when he hits with a claw or bite attack, as though he possessed improved grab. If he succeeds he may use that attack as a grapple action on any subsequent round at no extra penalty. If both claws are grappling he may walk only half his speed each round. Creatures held in the mouth get no saving throw against Firestorm’s breath weapon.
Firestorm can fling a creature he has snatched. It goes 1d6x10’ and takes 1d6 per 10’ it goes. If a creature is dropped while falling it takes falling damage appropriate to the height.
If Firestorm begins his turn with a creature in his mouth he may use a grapple action to swallow it. The swallowed creature is considered grappled while Firestorm is not. The swallowed creature can attempt to get out by making a grapple check against the one that put it in the stomach in the first place, in which case it is back in the mouth. If that mouth is severed the creature will come out of another randomly selected mouth. While a creature is in the stomach it takes 2d8 bludgeoning damage and 4d8 fire damage each round. The stomach can hold two Huge creatures. Four smaller creatures are equivalent to one creature of a bigger size.
Another way for the swallowed creature to escape is to cut its way out. It must deal 50 damage to the stomach wall (AC 37) with a one-handed piercing or slashing weapon to get free. Elemental or force damage is also effective. This damage does not go to Firestorm’s hitpoints because they are concentrated in his heads. Muscular action closes the hole made by the escaped creature, so another swallowed creature must cut it’s own way out.
Spells: Spells Known – 0 – acid splash, arcane mark, dancing lights, daze, detect magic, mage hand, message, read magic, touch of fatigue. 1 – alarm, endure elements, identify, magic missile, shield. 2 – darkness, earthen grasp, scintillating scales, see invisibility, shatter. 3 – lightning bolt, sign of sealing, slow, suggestion. 4 – animate dead, breath weapon substitution, dispelling breath, scrying. 5 – dismissal, feeblemind, telekinesis, wall of force. 6 – antimagic field, transfix, true seeing. 7 – control weather, energy immunity, plane shift. 8 – blackfire, flensing, polymorph any object. 9 – dominate monster, transmute rock to lava.
Spells per day and saving throws – 0-6-21, 1-9-22, 2-9-23, 3-18-24, 4-8-25, 5-8-26, 6-8-27, 7-8-28, 8-7-29, 9-5-30.
Spell Absorption (Su): Whenever a spell fails to penetrate Firestorm’s spell resistance he gets one of the following benefits chosen at the time the spell resolves. Might: +4 strength for one minute. Agility: +4 Dexterity for one minute. Endurance: +4 Constitution for one minute. Life: Temporary Hitpoints equal to 5xSpell level for one minute. Speed: Bonus speed equal to 5xSpell level for one minute. Resistance: 10 Resistance to Sonic for one minute.
Spell-Like Abilities: 12/day – locate object. 3/day – darkness, poison, suggestion, unholy aura. 1/day – blasphemy, contagion, destruction, desecrate, discern location, find the path, horrid wilting, unhallow, unholy blight.
Smite Good (Su): Once per day Firestorm can normal melee attack that deals an extra 20 damage against any good foe.
Tail Sweep (Ex): Firestorm may use a standard action to sweep his tail in a 40’ semicircle behind him. Creatures in the area medium size or smaller are affected. Affected creatures take 2d8+31 damage and must make a reflex save (DC 91) for half damage. Those who fail the save are also knocked prone.
Wingstorm (Ex): As a full-round action Firestorm can hover in place, beating his wings, to create a tornado strength wind emanating from him. All creatures within 120’ must make saving throws as shown on page 95 of the Dungeon Master’s Guide. This wind may be continued each turn, if it is not the checked effect is fairly worthless.

Hoard

Apocalypse Armor: +5 Fire Warding Half-Plate, Chaotic Evil, Int 10, Wis 18, Cha 18, Ego 26, Deathwatch Constant, +14 Intimidate, song of discord at will, telepathic, Purpose kill all. – 1,238,550 GP
+7 Returning Unholy Power Shortbow – 5,120,330 GP
Potions: Rage, Tongues, Waterbreathing x3. Good Hope, Protection From Arrows, Fly x2 – 6,600 GP
All 14 of Sheral’s Paintings, Each Worth 1,500 GP, Descriptions: Keep, Creepy Forest, Broken Mirror, Knights, Elf, Village, Sunset River, Ship, Dragon, Orcs On Fire, Shoes Under Table, Demon, Knight, and Druid and Bear. – 21,000 GP
Rings: Wizardry III, Animal Friendship, Evasion, X-ray vision – 130,000 GP
Rods: Withering, Lordly Might, Splendor – 120,000 GP
Wands: Invisibility (32), Wall of Ice (46), Holy Smite (27) – 35,160 GP
Staff of Frost (34), Robe of Eyes, Amulet of Fists +4, Bags Of Holding Type 4 x2, Major Displacement Cloak, Iron Band of Billaro, Bronze Griffon – 379,250 GP
20,000 GP Diamonds x4, 30 lb Pearl Dust, 40 GP Gems of All Kinds x247, Helm of Thadeus worth 30,000 GP, 8,180 PP, 37,019 GP, 655,484 SP, 2,982,034 CP – 346,067.74
Total Worth – 7,247,757.74 GP
Multiheaded Lernaean Cryo Fiendish Feral Insectile Half-Dragon Phrenic Winged Spellwarped Goblin of Legend
Small Aberration (Augmented Extraplanar Fire Cold Psionic Goblinoid)
Hit Dice: 3d12+30 (49 hp)
Initiative: +12
Speed: 40 ft., climb 40 ft., fly 60 ft. (perfect)
Armor Class: 41 (+1 size, +8 Dex, +20 natural, +2 leather armor), touch 19, flat-footed 33
Base Attack/Grapple: +2/+10
Attack: Morningstar +15 melee (1d6+18) or Bite +15 melee (1d4+12) or javelin +11 ranged (1d4+12)
Full Attack: 2 Morningstars +15 melee (1d6+12), Bite +15 melee (1d4+12), Claw +15 melee (1d6+6) or 3 Bites +15 melee (1d4+12), 2 Claws +15 melee (1d6+6) or 2 Javelins +11 ranged (1d4+12)
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Breath Weapon, Superior Multiweapon Fighting, Spells, Improved Grab, Smite Good
Special Qualities: Darkvision 90 ft., SR 14, Spell Absorption, Low-light Vision, Immunity to sleep, paralysis, cold, and fire, Tremorsense 60 ft., Cannot be flanked, Psi-Like Abilities, Naturally Psionic, Haste, Reflective Hide, Fast Healing 2
Saves: Fort +16, Ref +12, Will +8
Abilities: Str 35, Dex 27, Con 30, Int 16, Wis 21, Cha 18
Skills: Escape Artist +14, Hide +18, Jump +18, Litsen +17, Move Silently +14, Ride +14, Search +5, Spot +21, Tumble +14
Feats: Alertness, Combat Reflexes, Improved Initiative, Multiattack
Environment: Any evil-aligned plane.
Organization: Solitary
Challenge Rating: 11
Treasure: 50% coins, standard goods and items, no scrolls.
Alignment: Always chaotic evil
Advancement: By character class
Level Adjustment: +21

Spell Absorption (Su): Whenever a spell fails to penetrate the Goblin’s spell resistance the Goblin gets one of the following benefits.
(Might: +4 strength for 1 minute.
Agility: +4 dexterity for 1 minute.
Endurance: +4 constitution for 1 minute.
Life: Temporary hitpoints equal to 5 x the spell level that failed.
Speed: Base speed increases equal to 5 x the spell level that failed.
Resistance: Resistance 10 to one energy type.)
Breath Weapon (Su): 60 ft. line of fire. 6d8 fire damage. Reflex save DC 21 for half.
20 ft. long 10 ft. wide line of cold. 3d6 cold damage. Reflex save DC 21 for half.
Psi-Like Abilities¬ (Sp): 3/day force screen +4 to AC for 1 minute, empty mind +2 Will save for 1 round takes one immediate action, mind thrust 1d10 to on person within 30 ft. with Will save DC 16 for no damage.
Haste (Su): Always act as if under a haste effect.
Reflective Hide (Su): Always act as if under a spell turning effect.
Smite Good (Su): 1/day +3 damage against a good foe.
Spells: 0-15-detect magic, light, read magic, create water, mending 1-16-enlarge person, shield of faith, divine favor, protection from good, obscuring mist 2-17-gentle repose, silence, shatter 3-18-bestow curse, wind wall

chiasaur11
2008-08-31, 11:49 PM
The reason for choosing the Hellwasp Swarm:
It's immune to anything targeted - and all the things on the list that can hurt it? They all have to be targeted. Such a hellwasp swarm is completely unkillable provided it doesn't make use of it's Inhabit ability.

Which, of course, makes me wonder if anyone out there has already made a method of killing it. (outside of the obvious).

Calling something invincible always makes me wonder about the "except to..."

Rei_Jin
2008-08-31, 11:53 PM
As the original creator of the Ikea Tarrasque, I can proudly say that it is impossible to kill, when made correctly. It can be defeated or avoided, but not killed.

The reason for this is that when it sustains enough damage, one of it's heads falls off. You must then (normally) deal 5 points of Fire or Acid Damage to the stump to stop the head re-growing, and it regaining the lost hitpoints. However, it is immune to acid thanks to the half-clay golem template, and when the template combination is applied to a creature that is immune to fire, then you can't actually kill it.

Anxe
2008-08-31, 11:53 PM
The reason for choosing the Hellwasp Swarm:
It's immune to anything targeted - and all the things on the list that can hurt it? They all have to be targeted. Such a hellwasp swarm is completely unkillable provided it doesn't make use of it's Inhabit ability.That's horrible.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-08-31, 11:54 PM
As the original creator of the Ikea Tarrasque, I can proudly say that it is impossible to kill, when made correctly. It can be defeated or avoided, but not killed.

The reason for this is that when it sustains enough damage, one of it's heads falls off. You must then (normally) deal 5 points of Fire or Acid Damage to the stump to stop the head re-growing, and it regaining the lost hitpoints. However, it is immune to acid thanks to the half-clay golem template, and when the template combination is applied to a creature that is immune to fire, then you can't actually kill it.Anti-Osnium. Followed by Wish. Or a 1d2 Crusader.

Anxe
2008-08-31, 11:54 PM
As the original creator of the Ikea Tarrasque, I can proudly say that it is impossible to kill, when made correctly. It can be defeated or avoided, but not killed.

The reason for this is that when it sustains enough damage, one of it's heads falls off. You must then (normally) deal 5 points of Fire or Acid Damage to the stump to stop the head re-growing, and it regaining the lost hitpoints. However, it is immune to acid thanks to the half-clay golem template, and when the template combination is applied to a creature that is immune to fire, then you can't actually kill it.Could flame strike get through that?

chiasaur11
2008-09-01, 12:03 AM
Wouldn't Hellfire do the job nicely?

Recaiden
2008-09-01, 12:08 AM
Could flame strike get through that?


Flamestrike is a spell.
Clay golem makes them acidproof, swarm makes them target ability and attack proof, half - Golem makes them spell immune, Wish is a spell. Anti-Osmium might straight up kill it though.

On topic, i really like the gelatinous template.

Anxe
2008-09-01, 12:12 AM
Oh. You're right flame strike does have a Spell Resistance check. My bad. Is there a metamagic which removes spell resistance checks?

Jack_Simth
2008-09-01, 12:16 AM
As the original creator of the Ikea Tarrasque, I can proudly say that it is impossible to kill, when made correctly. It can be defeated or avoided, but not killed.

The reason for this is that when it sustains enough damage, one of it's heads falls off. You must then (normally) deal 5 points of Fire or Acid Damage to the stump to stop the head re-growing, and it regaining the lost hitpoints. However, it is immune to acid thanks to the half-clay golem template, and when the template combination is applied to a creature that is immune to fire, then you can't actually kill it.
There's a metamagic feat that makes fire spells deal half-damage to things that are fire immune despite the immunity. Searing Spell, I think it was.

Rei_Jin
2008-09-01, 12:23 AM
In which case, you'd then need to use a fire spell that doesn't allow spell resistance. I know they exist, but trust WotC to come up with something else dumb.

First WotC Dev: Hey, I know! Let's make a feat so that things that are immune to fire aren't immune to it completely anymore!

Second WotC Dev: Yeah, that sounds cool! Let's go smoke some crack!

turkishproverb
2008-09-01, 12:26 AM
In which case, you'd then need to use a fire spell that doesn't allow spell resistance. I know they exist, but trust WotC to come up with something else dumb.

First WotC Dev: Hey, I know! Let's make a feat so that things that are immune to fire aren't immune to it completely anymore!

Second WotC Dev: Yeah, that sounds cool! Let's go smoke some crack!

I think you have that in reverse.

Recaiden
2008-09-01, 12:29 AM
In which case, you'd then need to use a fire spell that doesn't allow spell resistance. I know they exist, but trust WotC to come up with something else dumb.

First WotC Dev: Hey, I know! Let's make a feat so that things that are immune to fire aren't immune to it completely anymore!

Second WotC Dev: Yeah, that sounds cool! Let's go smoke some crack!

I believe all spells that don't allow SR are targeted.

Insectile template

chiasaur11
2008-09-01, 12:29 AM
I think you have that in reverse.

Yeah, 2nd dev is the one with bad gameplay ideas, and first dev is the drug addict.

Don't feel bad. Even their parents, George and Sarah Dev, make that mistake.

Jack_Simth
2008-09-01, 12:43 AM
That's horrible.
Yes, yes it is.

I believe all spells that don't allow SR are targeted.

Insectile template
...

Archmage's Mastery of Elements on Acid Fog to make it an area-effect Fire Spell with no SR, and apply Searing Spell to that. It's a spell, so can be metamagic'd up. It's no SR Fire spell that can damage things that are Fire-immune.

Incendiary Cloud is also SR: No, and an area of effect, but it's much higher level.

Also - things that can't be killed can still be defeated.

For instance, if you just apply the Ikea Tarrasque template to a Fire giant (which is subject to targeted spells), you can permanently trap it in a no save, no SR manner with Trap the Soul's Trigger Object mechanism. You can Gate it somewhere where it's not going to do much of anything (assuming it has no particular planar travel abilities). You can bull-rush it into a Portable hole, close the hole, and toss it into a Sphere of Annihilation. And so on.

Rei_Jin
2008-09-01, 12:45 AM
Yes, yes you can. Already accepted that one. You can defeat it in a myriad of ways, but you can't kill it, and it will scare the $%^# out of most players when they realise they can't beat on it.

turkishproverb
2008-09-01, 12:50 AM
Yeah, 2nd dev is the one with bad gameplay ideas, and first dev is the drug addict.

Don't feel bad. Even their parents, George and Sarah Dev, make that mistake.

grumble....


You know what I meant. FIRST the crack, THEN the stupid spell.

Kind've like how the bag of tricks was created.

chiasaur11
2008-09-01, 12:58 AM
grumble....


You know what I meant. FIRST the crack, THEN the stupid spell.

Kind've like how the bag of tricks was created.

I knew and appreciated what you meant.

In fact, you communicated your point clearly enough that when I did my stupid little joke, I assumed anyone else reading would clearly see my misinterpretation was for comic effect while still appreciating your note.

So, uh, yeah.

Jack_Simth
2008-09-01, 12:59 AM
grumble....


You know what I meant. FIRST the crack, THEN the stupid spell.

Kind've like how the bag of tricks was created.
A bag of tricks actually has a use - trap springing (when you don't have a rogue to find and disable them properly).

Edit:
Mind you, it's generally not worth the asking price - but it's also got a secondary use - it's a standard-action flank for the party Rogue.

turkishproverb
2008-09-01, 01:10 AM
I knew and appreciated what you meant.

In fact, you communicated your point clearly enough that when I did my stupid little joke, I assumed anyone else reading would clearly see my misinterpretation was for comic effect while still appreciating your note.

So, uh, yeah.

I typed grumble. I'm surprised you took MY second post seriously. :smalltongue:

BobVosh
2008-09-01, 01:18 AM
An uber charger with a hammer could kill a nonswarm Ikea Tarrasque. Or multiple ones(charges).

As a construct it immediatly shatters when it hits 0, regardless of heads coming back.

As creator, which is the "correct" build for it, so we know what to destroy.

Rei_Jin
2008-09-01, 01:26 AM
Sure, you can try to do damage to it with a bludgeoning weapon. But as you can't deal slashing damage, you can't sever a head. Go read the Multi-headed Lernean template in Savage Species, then go read the Half-Clay Golem template in Monster Manual II

No remove head - No kill

Magic can get around this, to a degree. You need to deal hitpoint damage with a spell that it isn't immune to, then find some way to deal fire damage or acid damage that it isn't immune to (as it has immunity to both, and is immune to all spells that allow SR).

So no, a hammer wielder couldn't harm it, let alone kill it.

Seriously, this has been debated on and off since I first created it. And other than a fire or acid spell that bypasses the creatures immunity to it, AND its immunity to any spell that allows spell resistance, you cannot kill it. You can defeat it, but not kill it.

Just let it go, okay?

Glimbur
2008-09-01, 11:23 AM
But... but... I want to do the fire damage to keep the heads off with a Beguiler 20 UMD'ing a scroll of Flame Strike. Is that so wrong? IIRC Beguiler 20 means if it's flatfooted to you you can ignore SR, if not then this idea falls flat.

Flickerdart
2008-09-01, 12:01 PM
But... but... I want to do the fire damage to keep the heads off with a Beguiler 20 UMD'ing a scroll of Flame Strike. Is that so wrong? IIRC Beguiler 20 means if it's flatfooted to you you can ignore SR, if not then this idea falls flat.
It can ignore SR all it wants, but the spell still allows for SR and therefore the monster is immune. Plus, the base creature can be immune to fire.

hamishspence
2008-09-01, 12:15 PM
If an attack does both slashing and bludgeoning damage, the bludgeoning can overcome DR and the slashing can take off the head.

Martial weapon that does this: Kyuss style Executioner's mace, from Dungeon 135. Either bludgeon+pierce, or bludgeon +slash.

JupiterPaladin
2008-09-01, 12:42 PM
I have to say, it doesn't matter what you can create by RAW, I have faith that 3.5 is so broken that anything can be killed by the RAW as well. That's one of the things I love and hate about it.

Why are there spells that can just ignore Spell Resistance? I understand that some doofus down at WotC playtested a Wizard against something immune to stuff and felt ripped off, but why did his incompetence inspire such a stupid change? If you have Spell Resist it should not just be ignored. Same thing with immunities. If something is immune to fire, then WTF! Why can some feat let you damage it with fire anyway? It makes no sense at all. Just another example of the Wizard bias in WotC, and another strike against what could have been a decent system.

So now, let's get technical on your swarm. It can most likely be controlled with extreme winds, blocked in by Walls of Force or Forcecage, and other wise pushed into a Sphere of Annihilation. SoA trumps a lot of things. Also, let's not overlook your poor lowly Cleric or Druid. Sacred Spell makes half of the damage divine, which I don't recall being on this beastie's list of immunities. As a side note, anything immune to divine damage is bullcrap too. How could any mortal creature be immune to the wrath of a higher being?

Flickerdart
2008-09-01, 12:44 PM
I have to say, it doesn't matter what you can create by RAW, I have faith that 3.5 is so broken that anything can be killed by the RAW as well. That's one of the things I love and hate about it.

Why are there spells that can just ignore Spell Resistance? I understand that some doofus down at WotC playtested a Wizard against something immune to stuff and felt ripped off, but why did his incompetence inspire such a stupid change? If you have Spell Resist it should not just be ignored. Same thing with immunities. If something is immune to fire, then WTF! Why can some feat let you damage it with fire anyway? It makes no sense at all. Just another example of the Wizard bias in WotC, and another strike against what could have been a decent system.

So now, let's get technical on your swarm. It can most likely be controlled with extreme winds, blocked in by Walls of Force or Forcecage, and other wise pushed into a Sphere of Annihilation. SoA trumps a lot of things. Also, let's not overlook your poor lowly Cleric or Druid. Sacred Spell makes half of the damage divine, which I don't recall being on this beastie's list of immunities. As a side note, anything immune to divine damage is bullcrap too. How could any mortal creature be immune to the wrath of a higher being?
The point isn't that it's immune to divine damage (which it may or may not be). The point is that you need fire to cauterize the stump, not divine.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-09-01, 12:49 PM
I have to say, it doesn't matter what you can create by RAW, I have faith that 3.5 is so broken that anything can be killed by the RAW as well. That's one of the things I love and hate about it.PunPun
Why are there spells that can just ignore Spell Resistance? I understand that some doofus down at WotC playtested a Wizard against something immune to stuff and felt ripped off, but why did his incompetence inspire such a stupid change? If you have Spell Resist it should not just be ignored.The problem is, how do you justify Spell Resistance letting you walk through Solid Fog unhindered? It's a verisimilitude issue, not a balance one.

chiasaur11
2008-09-01, 12:59 PM
PunPun


Time travel going before he was born and killing him.

It was really, really tricky, but someone (mostly) pulled it off.

JupiterPaladin
2008-09-01, 02:12 PM
The point isn't that it's immune to divine damage (which it may or may not be). The point is that you need fire to cauterize the stump, not divine.

Understood, but the divine damage is still a way to get him into range for defeat. Clerics or Druids can use metamagics too, and could use another AoE with fire like the Wizard to finish it off.


PunPun

As much as I hate to call out a legend such as PunPun, or support the Wizard class any more than necessary, I must choose the lesser of 2 evils now. Tippy's infinitely knowledgeable Wizard will already know of the Pun Pun threat and drop in at least a round before it happens, and use Celerity cheese to ensure the disposal of the pre-buffed threat.


The problem is, how do you justify Spell Resistance letting you walk through Solid Fog unhindered? It's a verisimilitude issue, not a balance one.

Because it's magic, which the creature has resistance to. If the magic doesn't affect you, then you pass freely. If the caster beat the SR, then the creature is inhibited. It's classic in the genre literature to have a Wizard trying to control somebody, but by sheer will of force they shrug off the effect or struggle through it. So how would anybody justify that magic can make a wall or effect that can slow, inhibit, or completely stop you but is immune to destruction? Why is wall of force immune to damage now? It didn't used to be in the good old days. If it can act as a solid, it should be subject to damage as a solid. That's more of a verisimilitude issue than SR.