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Icewalker
2008-09-01, 12:13 AM
New feat! I was quite surprised to find that this doesn't exist in some form. Ah well. Simple enough, really. Its use is primarily for unusual prestige classing.

Practiced Skill
Benefit: A cross class skill of your choice other than Use Magic Device becomes a class skill for you. Any ranks bought in the skill prior to this point become 1 rank per skill point, instead of 1/2. Class skill ranks may not exceed your character level +3.


This effectively doubles the ranks you have in the skill. For example, a 4th level paladin with 3 ranks in Disable Device (which would have cost 6 skill points) taking this feat would then have 6 ranks, one per skill point, as if it had always been a class skill.
Special: You can take this feat multiple times. Each time it applies to a different cross-class skill.




Made it 'other than UMD' for obvious abuse reasons. Flavor-wise, it can't be UMD because you can't exactly practice using a magic item, they aren't common enough to practice by doing, and take extensive research (like a background in magic) to understand by conventional learning.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-09-01, 12:17 AM
Toss in a couple other restrictions, too. No Iajatsu Focus, that sort of thing.

Icewalker
2008-09-01, 12:45 AM
Well there'll always be new skills in additional books and the like. No idea what else requires removal from the list, so I'd say that's on a please don't abuse/DM decision basis.

Zeta Kai
2008-09-01, 12:48 AM
I would add the following note:

This feat can be taken multiple times. Each time you take this feat, it applies to a different cross-class skill.

Glyphic
2008-09-01, 12:53 AM
For what it's worth, I'd say no taking Auto hypnosis. I've always hated that skill.

Icewalker
2008-09-01, 12:57 AM
Good catch, Zeta Kai. Forgot about that.

As to the individual skills it should also not be allowed to, there are enough small abusable class-specific skills in splat books that I can't really list off all of them. I don't even recognize either of the ones that have been suggested so far. I suggest DM discretion on refusing in cases of abuse.

Chronos
2008-09-01, 01:19 AM
First point: The non-core skills are:
Psicraft
Knowledge: Psionics
Use Psionic Device
Autohypnosis
True Speech
Iajitsu Focus
Perform: Weapon Drill

That's it. The splatbooks haven't added nearly as many skills as they have feats. There are a few new applications of old skills, but those aren't really relevant to this feat. Of those, True Speech already has a feat like this for it (Truename Training), Perform: Weapon Drill is about as useful as it gets even without skill ranks, UPD should be in the same boat as UMD, and Psicraft and Knowledge: Psionics are really only useful to the classes that get them anyway.


Now, then, there's another problem with this feat (which is incidentally also shared by Truename Training): Suppose I take, say, a rogue 1/ranger 8. In my first rogue level, I take no ranks in Sleight of Hand (a class skill for rogues, but not for rangers). In my first two ranger levels, I spend all of my skill points on Sleight of Hand, and then spend an additional two points on it every level after that. I'm buying ranks at a cost of two skill points each, but since it was a class skill for one of my classes, the maximum rank is 3+level, just like a class skill. So by level 9, I've got 12 ranks in Sleight of Hand, and I've spent 24 skill points on it.

Now I take this feat at 9th level. I've spent 24 skill points in Sleight of Hand, so this feat converts those skill points into 24 ranks. I now have an epic number of ranks in Sleight of Hand, at ninth level. I've broken the skill cap.

Icewalker
2008-09-01, 01:30 AM
Oh...right, multiclassing out of a skill removes the limit by ranks.

Hrm. Not sure how to fix that.

So, the additional skills I should stop it from using are UMD, UPD, Autohypnosis, and Iajitsu Focus?

Grynning
2008-09-01, 02:44 AM
Just add the line: Class skill ranks may still not exceed character level +3.

Done.

Icewalker
2008-09-01, 03:19 AM
Yeah, guess that works. Seems odd though, they would end up losing points if they did that then. I suppose it'd just be poor planning on their part.

AstralFire
2008-09-01, 07:45 AM
First point: The non-core skills are:
Psicraft
Knowledge: Psionics
Use Psionic Device
Autohypnosis
True Speech
Iajitsu Focus
Perform: Weapon Drill

You forgot Martial Lore.

I really don't honestly see the point in restricting any skills, UMD's nice, but if they want to blow a feat on it, what's the problem? Most of the feats that grant a skill as a class skill also do something else (two skills, or a feat that'd be worth taking all on its own, etc) so if someone wants to spend a feat on -just- on UMD (and the requisite skill points) they ought to be able to. After all, Able Learner (because humans -really- needed Racial Power Feats in 3.5) and at least one level in a class that does grant UMD does it -anyway-.

I'm also wary of trying to keep track of cross-class rank purchasing because in no custom character sheet that I have used, nor the actual official sheet, have I seen someone actually keep track of that stuff per level.

Zeta Kai
2008-09-01, 07:53 AM
Yeah, guess that works. Seems odd though, they would end up losing points if they did that then. I suppose it'd just be poor planning on their part.

Yes, & poor planning should not be rewarded, regardless of what game you're playing.

That's one of the 2 major reasons I dislike the retraining rules from PHBII (the other reason is that the authors could've boiled down several pages of verbiage to "You can undo whatever you did with your character & redo it into whatever you want, but it takes time, & you can't break the normal progression rules while doing so"; there, if you haven't read retraining yet, I just saved you 45 minutes).

AstralFire
2008-09-01, 08:21 AM
Yes, & poor planning should not be rewarded, regardless of what game you're playing.

That's one of the 2 major reasons I dislike the retraining rules from PHBII (the other reason is that the authors could've boiled down several pages of verbiage to "You can undo whatever you did with your character & redo it into whatever you want, but it takes time, & you can't break the normal progression rules while doing so"; there, if you haven't read retraining yet, I just saved you 45 minutes).

I agree that the retraining rules are unnecessarily complex, but that's because I go "meh" to the "takes time" part. (It might; it might not. Depends on if the change is staying in concept or something drastic.) They provided the rules, I just think that you should be using discretion for something like that moreso than rules. To me, seems what you said is like saying you just saved someone time reading the class section of the PHB by saying "Well, the Fighter's REALLY GOOD at weapon tricks but the monk runs fast and..."

Poor planning of character design should not be penalized. It's not an issue of reward. Especially for players new to the game - I don't make newbie PCs go through anything arduous. They just go "damn, you know, this doesn't play the way I thought it would" and I go "well, let's see how we can change it to be the way you thought it would without going against what we know the character can do for a fact instead of making you roll up a new character or force you to not enjoy the mechanical parts of the game as much as you are enjoying the roleplaying bits." I've let them take entire new class levels in place of what they had before. I'd theoretically smite anyone who tried to game me by abusing that, but none of my players have.

Some people just aren't good character planners, and I've found it also encourages people to be more spontaneous and emotionally involved in the development of their character. Since I've instituted this rule, I've noticed an increase of players willing to say "you know, this isn't what I planned, but Jacen died back there and... I can see how his personality would dovetail well with a Blood Magus. What do you think about that?"

Icewalker
2008-09-01, 01:30 PM
Oh yeah, I totally agree, that's always good. The threat of taking this feat under those circumstances is easily avoided by...not taking the feat, so it mostly falls down to seeing that it wouldn't fully benefit you. You know.

Like I said, the main purpose of the feat is to fit into unusual prestige classes (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=89672), to make for some interesting characters.

Prometheus
2008-09-01, 01:50 PM
Don't forget Lucid Dreaming (guide to the planes I believe) and Control Shape (lycanthrope template).

It might be easier if you add that this feat can't be taken with restricted skills or require a certain number of ranks in the skill.

AstralFire
2008-09-01, 02:58 PM
Don't forget Lucid Dreaming (guide to the planes I believe) and Control Shape (lycanthrope template).

It might be easier if you add that this feat can't be taken with restricted skills or require a certain number of ranks in the skill.

I can see the latter, maybe, but what's so bad about UMD, Autohypnosis, and the rest? UMD is an amazingly useful skill, but TBH even if I could get it with a feat, I wouldn't often bother. It's too dependent on being able to have a reliable source of wands (and scrolls, at higher levels) since most wondrous items of note don't really have any of the most bizarre restrictions on who can use something. The biggest abusers will be devoted to UMD already through other means because the checks get pretty insane to make for a casual user - 9th level spells will require a minimum check of 36-37, or a +26-27 on average. Someone who puts every point they can into UMD with a Charisma of 16-18 can pull that off without any other work. At 20. With a 50% chance of failure.

UMD abusers want a higher skill check faster, for sure. (Most scroll users will be artificers, warlocks, bards, sorcerers or wizards, anyway. The first two get bonuses to UMD and have it as class skills, the latter three have most of those spells on their class list already.) If you really need more stuff about why UMD's not that great unless you're building specifically towards its use, then Sir Giacomo's Guide to Beating Batman is an EXCELLENT illustration (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=80704), provided you read everyone else's posts.

The ability to get Spot, Listen, Diplomacy, Sense Motive, Tumble, Bluff - those are all also powerhouse skills, and you rarely have the skill points to spare to get them all. I'd definitely find Diplomacy or Sense Motive more useful in many games, Tumble is a godsend to any melee that gets it, Bluff can be absolutely crazy with very little work (thank you Glibness), and Spot/Listen often determine if you get an extra round to work with or not.

Search, Intimidate, Escape Artist, Hide and Move Silently aren't quite on the above level, either, but they're still pretty good, too.

Asheram
2008-09-01, 03:50 PM
First point: The non-core skills are:
Psicraft
Knowledge: Psionics
Use Psionic Device
Autohypnosis
True Speech
Iajitsu Focus
Perform: Weapon Drill


True Speech? What kind of skill is that? I've tried to look around, but can't find it.

AstralFire
2008-09-01, 03:52 PM
True Speech? What kind of skill is that? I've tried to look around, but can't find it.

It's barred to politicians and parents of small children. a class skill for the Truenamer class, which I believe can be found in Tome of Magic. An interesting class that is totally broken (worthless) unless you are superduper planner optimizer man, when the class becomes somewhat broken (overpowered). Basically, it's Broken (doesn't work.)

Chronos
2008-09-01, 03:59 PM
True Speech is the central mechanic used for Truenamers and the other classes from the third section of Tome of Magic. Basically, a Truenamer is a sort of spellcaster, but instead of having a daily limit on his "spells", he has to make a skill check (which starts off very hard, and gets harder the more powerful the target and the the more times per day you use the same "spell") to say his target's True Name or it won't work. Truenamers are the only base class (aside from Factotum, of course) to get it as a class skill.

And yeah, I'd forgotten about Martial Lore and Control Shape. But Martial Lore is pretty much just the Tome of Battle equivalent to Spellcraft, and Control Shape is completely useless to a non-lycanthrope. I'd never heard of Lucid Dreaming, though.

AstralFire
2008-09-01, 04:09 PM
Yeah, ML isn't superduper awesome - just useful so you can identify martial scripts - but I thought I'd mention it.

Forgot all about Lucid Dreaming and Control Shape.

Draken
2008-09-01, 05:01 PM
Lucid Dreaming is at the end of the Manual of the Planes. It allows you some control over optional plane called "The Dream" (unexpected uh?).

It is kid of a cool skill. It allows you to invade other people's dreams and control the dreamscape, and can even be used to turn a dream into a lethal thing by dragging the dreamscape into the storm or something of the like. You are still kinda limited to your own fighting prowess against the oponent's when inside a dream, of course.

It's kinda cool, and might be good if you get to use it, but it is very situational, since you can only use it while asleep, and while your target is sleeping as well.