UFOs

[d'Bwobsling]

How many of you believe that aliens exist?

[Cyrano]

Title says UFOs, OP says existance of alien species. Statements not equivalent. Please clarify: purpose of topic?

[d'Bwobsling]

Title says UFOs, OP says existance of alien species. Statements not equivalent. Please clarify: purpose of topic?
filler
Both

[Lord Herman]

I'm convinced aliens exist. It's a big universe, and we already know there are Earth-sized planets orbiting nearby stars. There must be at least a few among those that sustain life, and I think that intelligent life will always evolve on a life-sustaining planet given enough time.

I have no idea if they've ever been to Earth, though. I suppose any species advanced enough to travel to our planet could also hide their presence, so there's not really any way to be sure.

[Cyrano]

Yeah, well, given the billions of stars in a galaxy times however many galaxies there may be, given, say, one in ten billion has planets and one in ten billion of those has life and one in ten billion evolved sentient life, well, my math is fuzzy but I guess there are prolly aliens SOMEWHERE, whether or not it would be mathematically possible to reach them before the heat death of the universe. UFOs, however, are no.

[DraPrime]

For all we know we are in fact a statistical improbability that just managed to happen within our massive universe. Or maybe we aren't. There's no way to know.

[Emperor Tippy]

Anyone who thinks other sentient species don't exist in the universe is a fool. There are hundreds of trillions of planets and moons (at the low end).

UFO's on the other hand are debatable. First off they require that a form of FTL travel be possible (unless its a full scale colony mission). Next up they require that aliens have visited earth (why they would do this is anyones guess).

[DraPrime]

Next up they require that aliens have visited earth (why they would do this is anyones guess).

They came to see our excellent webcomics.

[SDF]

~90% of stars have planets. It's the nature of how solar systems form. They all form the same way, so it is a reasonable assumption that life does too. Especially with the discovery of amino acids inside of meteor rocks.

So aliens exist. Aliens visiting Earth in weird space ships and probing our stupid livestock... not so much.

[Jibar]

Well, it all depends on what kind of mathematics (http://www.xkcd.com/384/) you're trying to use to prove it all.

Otherwise, I've got a friend who's deeply afraid of aliens and ufos and all that comes with that. He believes in it all one hundred percent and has spent a lot of time telling us about it. It's all fascinating, and when he describes some of his own experiences (which ultimately amount to nothing, but still) it's one of the few times I have ever seen him scared.

[Shraik]

I believe there is sentient life out there...somewhere. I'd think it'd be really freakin cool if there was something set up like in Mass Effect, where there is already some large empire, and we're a primitive species. It makes sense...

[JupiterPaladin]

I agree with Tippy completely on this one. I think you would have to be a very narrow-minded person to refute the possibility of other living creatures. It's the whole infinity thing, infinite possibility makes a decent chance for other life.

Alien life should exist as well. There could be many varieties, big tentacles monstrous water-beasts, dinosaur-like creatures, other humanoids, whatever. Depending on how long ago you consider the timeline to have started, even the what, 13 billion years ago since the big bang, that's plenty enough time for a sentient race to have mastered the secrets of the universe. It's possible they could visit Earth for similar reasons as to why we send missions to other planets in our Solar System, to look at similar objects to try to gain an understanding of how their own planet may have formed through history.

The human race is not too far from more efficient space exploration. Since it's not a mainstream popular topic, the news doesn't cover most of what goes on. To anybody interested I suggest checking out the X Prize Foundation site. Private industry is making leaps and bounds over NASA, which is both funny and sad. :smalleek:

[Beholder1995]

I read that according to statistics, there may be as many as 1000 planets in out own galaxy that could sustain intelligent life.

I'd certainly like to THINK we're not alone.

[DraPrime]

You know what would be really weird? If we were the most advanced life in the universe. After all, many sentient aliens could be in the bronze age for all we know.

[Cyrano]

You know what would be really weird? If we were the most advanced life in the universe. After all, many sentient aliens could be in the bronze age for all we know.

Know what would be even wierder? For a long time, fiction has had the "progenitor" race, from Star Control to Babylon 5 and I'm sure a list of others that I'm too lazy to mention. But wouldn't it be strange if it turned out we were it?

[DraPrime]

It would be cool. It would mean that humans would be able to rule the universe with an iron fist. Once we figure out how to unite our whole planet. Hmmm, this might take a while....

[Jibar]

Damn. D'anna got there before I could.
But yes, that's a theory I've been theoriating for a while now.

[Lemur]

I see UFOs all the time. Airplanes and helicopters fly overhead but I couldn't tell you what model they are, or who owns them.

[Cyrano]

Damn. D'anna got there before I could.
But yes, that's a theory I've been theoriating for a while now.

Actually, so have I. I wonder what other people would think of us? probably "NO TENTACLES? WHAT KIND OF CRAPPY PROGENITOR IS THAT?"

Also, Lemur's post is made of awesome.

[DraPrime]

Actually, so have I. I wonder what other people would think of us? probably "NO TENTACLES? WHAT KIND OF CRAPPY PROGENITOR IS THAT?"

They'd probably think that we're ugly for only having two eyes.

[Emperor Tippy]

It would be cool. It would mean that humans would be able to rule the universe with an iron fist. Once we figure out how to unite our whole planet. Hmmm, this might take a while....

Well we could give every person their own planet and species to rule over as a god. Go the goa'uld route (only much more intelligently).

[Lord Herman]

Ewww! They have fingers instead of suction cups!

[DraPrime]

Well we could give every person their own planet and species to rule over as a god. Go the goa'uld route (only much more intelligently).

Dibs on the planet full of hot models!

[SDF]

Well, it all depends on what kind of mathematics (http://www.xkcd.com/384/) you're trying to use to prove it all.

Otherwise, I've got a friend who's deeply afraid of aliens and ufos and all that comes with that. He believes in it all one hundred percent and has spent a lot of time telling us about it. It's all fascinating, and when he describes some of his own experiences (which ultimately amount to nothing, but still) it's one of the few times I have ever seen him scared.

Well, the Drake equation does make some assumptions, but the main tenants of it are easily observable. I've taken a few uni classes on the subject. Cosmology, and surprisingly (surprising in that it is actually offered) an astrobiology class. Probably the most interesting non-core class I have ever taken. We studied cosmological models, and spent a little time on the Drake equation.

[Ilena]

Dibs on the ubber tough warrior race .... :P but ya aliens exist, im sure of it, they if given a chance would want to visit this world for the simple reason we are a life form they can study to see what makes us tick,

[Innis Cabal]

~90% of stars have planets. It's the nature of how solar systems form. They all form the same way, so it is a reasonable assumption that life does too. Especially with the discovery of amino acids inside of meteor rocks.

So aliens exist. Aliens visiting Earth in weird space ships and probing our stupid livestock... not so much.

We don't know that for sure. All we've seen suggests it.

The problem with doing the math, and thinking "is there intellegent life" is, to what standard do we hold that life? Are they even carbon based? Maybe there is some ruthenium based life form asking the same thing, and the only reason we havent been contacted is because to them, we arn't "alive" or "intellegent"

FTL travel could be possible, amybe our math is wrong. Its pretty egotistical to say we've got it 100% right. We don't even a one billionith of the answers needed to answer the solar system theory, or anything else really. We have whats true for earth, and we spout it like its a universal thing, when...we might truely be wrong at the most basic of levels.

[Cyrano]

FTL travel could be possible, amybe our math is wrong. Its pretty egotistical to say we've got it 100% right. We don't even a one billionith of the answers needed to answer the solar system theory, or anything else really. We have whats true for earth, and we spout it like its a universal thing, when...we might truely be wrong at the most basic of levels.

However, this does not mean that we can discount the most believable theories by the brightest minds we have because they are theories. No, we don't KNOW whether FTL is impossible, but it seems that way to us, and since we currently have no way of gathering information that is what we have to assume is correct, on the universal level.

[Don Julio Anejo]

Of course, UFOs could just as well be scratches or dust in the lens... Any photographer who's been shooting long enough has his collection of UFO photos.

[Innis Cabal]

However, this does not mean that we can discount the most believable theories by the brightest minds we have because they are theories. No, we don't KNOW whether FTL is impossible, but it seems that way to us, and since we currently have no way of gathering information that is what we have to assume is correct, on the universal level.

And those same theories by our greatest minds are turned on their heads. More often then the should if they were "universal constants".

To say "because we only know A, we have to think of X in the terms of A" is.....really very narrow. We are looking for life -like- us. Not just life in general.


UFO's on the other hand are debatable. First off they require that a form of FTL travel be possible (unless its a full scale colony mission). Next up they require that aliens have visited earth (why they would do this is anyones guess).

Why are they debatable? If intellegent life, of any form, exists then they should just as likely be possible. Because we dont have FTL and we havent figured it out dosnt mean some other creature or mineral based strand hasn't and uses it all the time. For all we know, the "intellegent" life we are seeking -are- light based entities that can somehow twist matter into wormhole like slip streams and travel in no time flat.

Again, its narrow minded to say we have to think of anything in terms of ourselves. We frankly arnt that important

[Emperor Tippy]

It is impossible to rule FTL travel impossible at this time. It will continue to be that way until (at the least) we understand gravity. We still haven't shown that gravity waves propagate at light speed, and we haven't shown that they don't either. Whether gravity propagates infinitely fast is unknown, whether it propagates at light speed is unknown, whether it propagates at 101% of light speed is unknown, whether it propagates at 1000% of light speed is unknown.

[Cyrano]

And those same theories by our greatest minds are turned on their heads. More often then the should if they were "universal constants".

To say "because we only know A, we have to think of X in the terms of A" is.....really very narrow. We are looking for life -like- us. Not just life in general.

Because we only know A, we have to think in X in terms of A. That's not narrow minded. That's using the information we actually have instead of the stuff we don't. The alternative is "Because we only know A, we could think of X in terms of A, but really it's possible that the stuff we don't know (B) will contradict us so let's assume A is wrong".

Theories are overturned due to new sources of information. We don't HAVE those sources. And we won't, until we have some methods of accelerating to the speed of light, when we can see if we can push past it.

[Emperor Tippy]

Theories are overturned due to new sources of information. We don't HAVE those sources. And we won't, until we have some methods of accelerating to the speed of light, when we can see if we can push past it.

Most methods of going FTL don't accelerate to that point.

[SDF]

And those same theories by our greatest minds are turned on their heads. More often then the should if they were "universal constants".

To say "because we only know A, we have to think of X in the terms of A" is.....really very narrow. We are looking for life -like- us. Not just life in general.

Again, its narrow minded to say we have to think of anything in terms of ourselves. We frankly arnt that important

I disagree, firstly we have observed many other solar systems forming in various stages and they all form roughly the same. If there is little variation in that regard it is logical to look like planets with like conditions. Spectroscopically looking for oxygen atmospheres is still the best way to try and discover extraterrestrial life. I'm not saying it isn't possible there is noncarbon based life, but we wouldn't know what to look for. Using what we know, us, as an example isn't narrow minded at all.

[Cyrano]

Most methods of going FTL don't accelerate to that point.

As far as I understand it, most methods of FTL involve going under the speed of light but either warping space time or utilizing alternate universes of some sort. However, you are entirely correct, so until we accelerate past it or attempt to test any other theoretical method of FTL, insert favourite method here, we won't know.

^Silicon-based lifeforms and methane atmospheres are also theorized to be used for life, though oxygen and carbon are (as far as I know) the most commonly accepted precursors for life.

[Emperor Tippy]

And we have never even accelerated a large object up to even .1 c. For all we know funny things could start happening with macroscopic objects at those velocities.

[Innis Cabal]

Looking no. But here, its all theory. So saying "FTL is probably not possible" or, "Solar systems a,b,c,d, and e, all formed the same, so xe, xb and xc down the line must to, is rather...well....you need to tack on an "As far as we know" at the end of all of it.

Your all right in saying "we can't -look- for things we dont know about", what I'm saying is, in this setting going off of base presumptions by people who only know what they know because they don't know any better, isnt really in the spirit of the exercise, and thus, slightly narrow minded,

[SDF]

It's science. You use the models you have to set parameters, until you can find one instance where they don't work. But to not set parameters just because there is a possibility you don't know is silly.

[King_of_GRiffins]

I'm convinced aliens exist. It's a big universe, and we already know there are Earth-sized planets orbiting nearby stars. There must be at least a few among those that sustain life, and I think that intelligent life will always evolve on a life-sustaining planet given enough time.



Not necessarily. Life can exist without ever developing advanced thought processes. Dinosuars in general had 250 million years to evolve, and they spent most of that time developing armor plating, teeth, and figuring out how to run really fast. Humans had about 64 million years after the dino's went away to evolve from mice to monkeys and finally humans who could out-think any creature around. With this in mind, it's highly reasonable to assume there is life in some form on other planets in the galaxy, and almost certainly in the universe, to assume it might want to talk with us instead of trying to eat us is a different matter.

Though, even with the thought in mind that humans were given the chance to evolve to their state by the fact they survived meteor strikes better, in all odds at least some portion of life that manages to exist should be intelligent. Now, being intelligent would infer something, perhaps that if intelligent life were to travel it wouldn't do so merely for the sake of bringing home some hamburgers and leaving a few people astounded. Put ourselves in that kind of situation; Would we really be joy riding through the universe sticking probes in whatever orifices we happen to find? I think what most people think are UFO's could probably be easily explained in some manner other than than being extraterrestrial, as there is no way I can see why an intelligent species would take a 100 million light-year trip, possibly using up hundreds of billions of dollars of alien currency to make it, just to abduct random people. If I was flying that ship, I'd land it and say hello to someone.


Maybe there is some ruthenium based life form asking the same thing, and the only reason we havent been contacted is because to them, we arn't "alive" or "intellegent"

I think, as far as 'animal-like' creatures (as opposed to merely human-like or to plant-like) are concerned, anything that moves and reacts to the environment without being a physical part of it is alive.

[Fri]

You know what? Maybe WE are the precursor. You know, the ancient. The one that will left all of those nifty phlebotinum all around the galaxy. That sealed the evil inside the can.

So, thousands or millions of years later, our mysterious artifact will be found by those xeno-archeologist of planet blahdeblah, while they're trying to figure out how to use our star gate.

We'll be long gone when the galaxy is full of space faring species, though. Because, they'll use our technology to jumpstart theirs.

If we got lucky, maybe we're just sort of ascended. If not, we might destroy ourself with our technology/war, or if we really screwed things up, we create the nasty cyber organism that will hinder the future galactic federation (we, of course, die trying to destroy the cyborg. Maybe we can seal them, but can't destroy them.)

[Innis Cabal]

It's science. You use the models you have to set parameters, until you can find one instance where they don't work. But to not set parameters just because there is a possibility you don't know is silly.

Even if its silly its realistic. We dub someting "alive" or "intellegent" but...really....who'se to say we even fit those words for other species? Its not just about science and models and what -we- know. We are talking about something so expansive, so....huge, that you, me, this forum, this -world- means nothing. All things considered, just because we have some models and some words and some theories, dosn't mean its silly to understand that the universe almost certainly dosn't work close to what we have on paper.

[Arioch]

We'll be long gone when the galaxy is full of space faring species, though. Because, they'll use our technology to jumpstart theirs.

"We have discovered an ancient Human beacon on our colony. The last time we made a discovery like this, it jumped our technology forward two hundred years!"

We so have to build Mass Relays. :smallbiggrin:

[Cyrano]

Even if its silly its realistic. We dub someting "alive" or "intellegent" but...really....who'se to say we even fit those words for other species? Its not just about science and models and what -we- know. We are talking about something so expansive, so....huge, that you, me, this forum, this -world- means nothing. All things considered, just because we have some models and some words and some theories, dosn't mean its silly to understand that the universe almost certainly dosn't work close to what we have on paper.

If you don't want to set any parameters because you think we're too young and small to be CERTAINLY right, well, fine. That's valid. In fact, you're probably right. But don't say that setting those parameters, working within what we THINK, is narrow minded. Working within our best guesses is "realistic", not small.

[Shadowcaller]

"We have discovered an ancient Human beacon on our colony. The last time we made a discovery like this, it jumped our technology forward two hundred years!"

We so have to build Mass Relays. :smallbiggrin:

Well the thing is, how did did we manage to travel so far into space and build the space relays without using them?:smallconfused:
(something that have always bugged me with mass effect.)

[Fri]

Yeah, now you know why the precursors always left strange artifacts in far away places, do genetic meddling on primitive species, trying to uplift a non sentient...

Because they're bored. At that time, they're (we're?) the first and only space faring species.

[Cyrano]

Well the thing is, how did did we manage to travel so far into space and build the space relays without using them?:smallconfused:
(something that have always bugged me with mass effect.)

well, if you read the Codex, the Protheans also left a bunch of "Secondary" mass relays, that had a shortened range but were omnidirectional and needed no linked relay twin. So they coulda just leapfrogged a bunch of those. Or, you could send machines out to do it, if you could wait a couple bajillion millenia.

[Shadowcaller]

well, if you read the Codex, the Protheans also left a bunch of "Secondary" mass relays, that had a shortened range but were omnidirectional and needed no linked relay twin. So they coulda just leapfrogged a bunch of those. Or, you could send machines out to do it, if you could wait a couple bajillion millenia.

Must have missed that entry, thanks for telling me this.
Anyway lets not go too far outside the topic of this thread now.

[sktarq]

I believe there is sentient life out there...somewhere.

We beter hope so cuz there is bugger all down here.




On a more serious note.
Aliens....yep I pretty convinced that somewhere, in all those gallaxies with 10x10^8+ stars each that there is life that is just as smart as us, or the most inteligent thing on our planet if we are not (A: Neanderthals had brains that seem to be just as advanced as ours-but may not have had language as we would understand it, B: Dolphins and whales (particularly sperm whales) seem to have brains just as advanced as our own, C: We can teach a gorilla our language but not the other way around-who is smarter?).
UFO's Even if you assume FTL (from our POV) transport is possible (for any type of matter/energy or information that make up the life form and any equipment it uses) then it is POSSIBLE for them to come by and say "hi" and swipe a few humans or cattle. But do I think that such a thing has happened with any regularity in the last 100 years? Nope.

[thubby]

i find it hard to believe that in all this space we're the only ones out here, but i find the prospect that they are here absurd. in addition to having no reason to think any alien would be more advanced than we are, and the questionable reality of faster than light travel, do you honestly think anything capable of getting here would have trouble avoiding detection from us?

[Totally Guy]

Somewhere, somewhere and even somewhen. I mean lets say that human life stops at some point, we all blow up or whatever. That's just a tiny people blip on the universal scale. And in all of that massive amount of time out there the overlap of our blip and the intelligent alien's blip might be pretty small.

So really this is a question on whether there is enough space out there, to have life, versus the amount of time mankind has left to meet them.

The other, less clever argument about non-intelligent life (because non-intellegent life is allowed to have a dumb theory). Ok, let's say you are on the moon eating a doughnut. Don't ask how. And you drop it. And it lands in moon rock. You pick it up dust it off and wonder whether it's ok to keep eating it. All tests show that you aren't likely to catch anything and it's not as if you'd be ingesting moon rock so it might be safe:smallsmile:. On the other hand, it's been on the floor!:smallyuk:

[DigoDragon]

Oh yeah, I'm sure there is life out there beyond our world.

Now is there intelligent FTL traveling life out there visiting our planet? It's certainly possible. Even if only 1% of the "UFO sightings" are unexplainable, mysterious sightings that defy all ppossible explanation... that leaves us with a 1% mystery that has the possibility of being true that we're being watched by someone not of this planet. :smallamused:
And that's what scares the governements around the world. :smallbiggrin:

[Don Julio Anejo]

Now, being intelligent would infer something, perhaps that if intelligent life were to travel it wouldn't do so merely for the sake of bringing home some hamburgers and leaving a few people astounded. Put ourselves in that kind of situation; Would we really be joy riding through the universe sticking probes in whatever orifices we happen to find? I think what most people think are UFO's could probably be easily explained in some manner other than than being extraterrestrial, as there is no way I can see why an intelligent species would take a 100 million light-year trip, possibly using up hundreds of billions of dollars of alien currency to make it, just to abduct random people. If I was flying that ship, I'd land it and say hello to someone.
And this may be exactly what the aliens wanted to do in the first place. So they kidnapped some farmer from Oklahoma to learn English. But didn't like what they heard... So they kidnapped some other farmer, this time from Indonesia. And another...

And in the end they figured out that if they land, maybe 30% of humans will be happy to find new friends from Dakara or somesuch, another 30% will worship them as gods and 40% will start frantically pressing buttons in their nuclear suitcases. Which is precisely why they aren't landing if they're out there.



On a more serious note. *snip*
C: We can teach a gorilla our language but not the other way around-who is smarter?).

1. It was actually a chimpanzee,
and 2. We were only able to teach it performatives, that is words that are used to get a certain reaction from whomever you're talking to. That is, the monkey could say "I'm hungry" or "I'm bored" if it was, but it couldn't make up new sentences or grasp abstract concets like numbers.

[UncleWolf]

DUE TO MY AGREEMENT I AM UNABLE TO ANSWER THAT QUESTION UNTIL THE YEAR 2065:smalltongue:

I really believe that aliens do exist because it would be an awfully boring universe if there weren't any other lifeforms out there.
but mainly...

"I want to believe."

[Fri]

And this may be exactly what the aliens wanted to do in the first place. So they kidnapped some farmer from Oklahoma to learn English. But didn't like what they heard... So they kidnapped some other farmer, this time from Indonesia. And another...

And in the end they figured out that if they land, maybe 30% of humans will be happy to find new friends from Dakara or somesuch, another 30% will worship them as gods and 40% will start frantically pressing buttons in their nuclear suitcases. Which is precisely why they aren't landing if they're out there.


1. It was actually a chimpanzee,
and 2. We were only able to teach it performatives, that is words that are used to get a certain reaction from whomever you're talking to. That is, the monkey could say "I'm hungry" or "I'm bored" if it was, but it couldn't make up new sentences or grasp abstract concets like numbers.

no, maybe he refer to this gorilla with a nipple fetish

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koko_(gorilla)

[Serpentine]

We beter hope so cuz there is bugger all down here.*ahem*
You'd better hope they find
Intelligent life up there in space,
Cuz there's bugger all
Down here on Earth!

C: We can teach a gorilla our language but not the other way around-who is smarter?).Who's smarter, the teacher or the student? But I don't think that's very fair. A biologist who's studied gorilla interaction can listen to their noises and watch their actions and eventually come to understand what it is that they are trying to convey in these ways.

On UFOs and aliens, I think I'll be pretty much echoing everyone else. To think that in an infinite universe full of infinite planets that has and will last for an infinite amount of time this is the only planet that ever has and ever will bear life, and that we are the only intelligent life, is ludicrous. However, it is also ludicrous to think that it would happen during our own existance, much less near enough for us to actually have contact. I remember hearing that the... Hubble, was it? With the directions to Earth and all? Will be passing right through a big empty patch in which it'll be so far away from anything else that it'll take millenia for anything to reach it from anywhere, and so anything advanced enough to find it we probably wouldn't want to find it because it could wipe us out in a heartbeat.
On UFOs specifically, there are so many sightings and recordings of these things that it seems unlikely that there isn't something being seen. However, to immediately assume that all of these are manned spacecraft is drawing a long bow at best.
I was looking around at some supernaturally type things a while ago and came across "rods (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rod_(cryptozoology))". Anyone else heard of these? They are rod-shaped thingies that have manta ray-like "wings" on each side of their bodies that can fly so fast that they go unseen to the naked eye and can only be caught on camera. What they actually are? Bugs and birds caught on film.

[Raiser Blade]

Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us.
--Bill Watterson

That pretty much sums up my viewpoint.

[Holammer]

Life on other planets? Sure thing! I believe there is both grand and primitive organisms all over the place. If we could just find a single bacteria on Mars or Europa for example that'd mean a lot.

But do they visit us? I think the any culture that spreads its wings and goes beyond FTL, they would study lesser civilisations with a prime directive approach. I mean today we have a 100 or so hidden tribes here on earth that we avoid disturbing as much as possible. One problem preserving these cultures is sadly missionaries and it leaves me with the opinion that if we ever get contacted by an outside intelligence it will be because they're here to proselytise about their cosmic religion.

[Innis Cabal]

why would races with FTL even stoop so low to approch us with a "prime" directive, or even begin to assume we are worth peaceful contact? Chances are, they would stufy us like we would study a life form we didnt understand.

[thubby]

why would races with FTL even stoop so low to approch us with a "prime" directive, or even begin to assume we are worth peaceful contact? Chances are, they would stufy us like we would study a life form we didnt understand.

because as we've aged we have taken more passive methods and become more understanding of intelligences not our own.