Mage's Disjunction on a Lich's Phylactery

[Kami2awa]

The title says it all; what happens to a lich's phylactery if it's hit by Mage's Disjunction? Doesn't this strike you as a really easy way to destroy a lich?

[CASTLEMIKE]

It normally takes Craft Wondrous Item to make a Phylactery.

Sometimes they hide them.

Think about all the other treasure you are destroying (Possibly artifacts) MDJ has a 40' Radius what about the other party members?

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/lich.htm
The Lich’s Phylactery
An integral part of becoming a lich is creating a magic phylactery in which the character stores its life force. As a rule, the only way to get rid of a lich for sure is to destroy its phylactery. Unless its phylactery is located and destroyed, a lich reappears 1d10 days after its apparent death.

Each lich must make its own phylactery, which requires the Craft Wondrous Item feat. The character must be able to cast spells and have a caster level of 11th or higher. The phylactery costs 120,000 gp and 4,800 XP to create and has a caster level equal to that of its creator at the time of creation.

The most common form of phylactery is a sealed metal box containing strips of parchment on which magical phrases have been transcribed. The box is Tiny and has 40 hit points, hardness 20, and a break DC of 40.

Other forms of phylacteries can exist, such as rings, amulets, or similar items.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Sure, assuming you can find its phylactery in the first place. Most Liches won't just wear it around on their person, it will be hidden away in a safe place. Most would just Ethereal Jaunt or Shapechange into an Earth Elemental and find an inaccessible cavern underneath a mountain, or Disintegrate a room out of the solid stone. Line the walls with lead, put the Phylactery there with a few spare copies of its spellbook and components, and a backup set of magical gear, and a permanencied Teleportation Circle leading to its primary lair. It also helps if the room is filled with some sort of poisonous gas, just in case something stumbles upon it, and blanket the area with permanencied alarm spells so he knows when anyone even happens to dig/explore nearby.

If anyone ever managed to find a Lich's phylactery, they may as well just attack it with Power Attack to destroy it, rather than waste a 9th level spell that they may need when the lich or its minions show up.

[arguskos]

Sure, assuming you can find its phylactery in the first place. Most Liches won't just wear it around on their person, it will be hidden away in a safe place. Most would just Ethereal Jaunt or Shapechange into an Earth Elemental and find an inaccessible cavern underneath a mountain, or Disintegrate a room out of the solid stone. Line the walls with lead, put the Phylactery there with a few spare copies of its spellbook and components, and a backup set of magical gear, and a permanencied Teleportation Circle leading to its primary lair. It also helps if the room is filled with some sort of poisonous gas, just in case something stumbles upon it, and blanket the area with permanencied alarm spells so he knows when anyone even happens to dig/explore nearby.
As a note, the Teleportation Circle thing is probably a Bad Plan(tm). Considering that Teleportation Circle is two-way (if I recall correctly), this is not a good idea, in case the goody-two-shoes that destroy the lich discover the other end of the circle.

Better to simply leave a scroll or three of Etherealness or somesuch so you can phase through the walls to get out. Seems like a safer bet.

Also, on topic, yah, Disjunction would totally work... if you already have the phylactery. Since you have it though... why not just soak it in lava or something? Or polymorph it into a squirrel and eat it for dinner? Or anything else more creative and less "blast the room and hope we got it"?

-argus

[Eldariel]

Disjunction generally falls outside the gentlemens' agreement anyways - used against PCs, it can swiftly destroy most of their wealth-per-level and used against opponents, it can annihilate all would-be loot. And the spell is nuts. Seriously, it was the only spell of 9th level or lower that was banned in level 50 gestalt arena. In fact, if a world existed where the spell was used, I'd expect the average Wealth Per Level to be 10th of the normal guideline simply because all equipment gets periodically smashed and crashed.

[Hal]

This is provided your DM doesn't rule the Lich's phylactery an artifact. If the Lich is the BBEG for a campaign, it's a strong possibility.

I should know, it's what I did last time I DM'd. :smallbiggrin:

[Starbuck_II]

The title says it all; what happens to a lich's phylactery if it's hit by Mage's Disjunction? Doesn't this strike you as a really easy way to destroy a lich?

It dsoes not destroy a Lich usually. It only destroys a dead Lich. It just means he won't come back.


A Lich with his Phylactery disjioned or destroyed can't make a new one so he is weakened forever-more.

[Eldritch_Ent]

I don't see why a lich wouldn't make a new phylactery so long as he had a way of retrieving some of his soul, but that's all I'll say on that.

As a DM I'd simply rule it renders the item useless anyway, much as it would for anything else. It'd be a great way to do it assuming the lich had it heavily guarded and trapped (Like, covered in forbidden scripts, various "Symbols of save or die", under a prismatic sphere...), or if you just wanted to be spectacular.

[Starbuck_II]

I don't see why a lich wouldn't make a new phylactery so long as he had a way of retrieving some of his soul, but that's all I'll say on that.

As a DM I'd simply rule it renders the item useless anyway, much as it would for anything else. It'd be a great way to do it assuming the lich had it heavily guarded and trapped (Like, covered in forbidden scripts, various "Symbols of save or die", under a prismatic sphere...), or if you just wanted to be spectacular.

WotC Sage or the FAQ stated the Lich can't make a new one: I beliegve because the book says "A" phylactery. A singnifies single one I read.

[KillianHawkeye]

Using disjunction to destroy a lich's phylactery follows the same combat philosophy the Empire used when they decided to build a gigantic planet-destroying battle station in order to quell rebellious uprising: intimidating levels of unnecessary, overwhelming force.

Having disjunction is kinda like having WMDs in real life. It acts as a deterrant. You want the lich to know you can cast it whenever you want, so it knows not to mess with you. Sure, you could still destroy his phylactery some other way, and probably the lich itself, but you won't need to use disjunction unless you absolutely need to destroy everything the lich has, decisively and all at once. It's the ultimate magic item nuke.

EDIT: Disjunction could also be useful if you know the lich's phylactery is somewhere in the lich's treasure room but you don't know which item it is. You'd be destroying an awful lot of loot if you did that, though. :smallfrown:

[Tsotha-lanti]

WotC Sage or the FAQ stated the Lich can't make a new one: I beliegve because the book says "A" phylactery. A singnifies single one I read.

But Aumvor the Undying has 206 phylacteries. (Each bone in a human skeleton.) Granted, he used an epic spell to do that, but NPCs don't need to follow the rules to do cool plot stuff off-screen.

In standard conditions, Mordenkainen's disjunction would destroy a phylactery pretty effectively. If you didn't bother killing the lich, expect them to come up with a new one, because it's safer to assume the worst when dealing with immortal spellcasters.

[DigoDragon]

Since you have it though... why not just soak it in lava or something? Or polymorph it into a squirrel and eat it for dinner? Or anything else more creative and less "blast the room and hope we got it"?

Like have your favorite minion wear it like an amulet? :smalltongue: But I agree with the general concensus that Disjunction should work on it.

[Tokiko Mima]

Using disjunction to destroy a lich's phylactery follows the same combat philosophy the Empire used when they decided to build a gigantic planet-destroying battle station in order to quell rebellious uprising: intimidating levels of unnecessary, overwhelming force.

Having disjunction is kinda like having WMDs in real life. It acts as a deterrant. You want the lich to know you can cast it whenever you want, so it knows not to mess with you. Sure, you could still destroy his phylactery some other way, and probably the lich itself, but you won't need to use disjunction unless you absolutely need to destroy everything the lich has, decisively and all at once. It's the ultimate magic item nuke.

EDIT: Disjunction could also be useful if you know the lich's phylactery is somewhere in the lich's treasure room but you don't know which item it is. You'd be destroying an awful lot of loot if you did that, though. :smallfrown:

Also, keep in mind that a smart lich who has hidden his phylactery well will use your assumption that it's close by (and apparent readiness to Disjunction) to do nasty stuff to you, like making a fake phylactery in a room that's supported by permanent walls of force. True, he might (and probably will if he's this paranoid) trap the fake phylactery to do nasty stuff when it's destroyed in any case. Just saying that disjunction is not the ultimate solution and not the only, or even the first, one you should rely on.

[Tsotha-lanti]

Only a very, very silly lich would hide its phylactery anywhere near its area of activity. You conceal it as far away as possible - preferrably in a near-completely unreachable place, like under glacial ice, on a moon or other satellite, or under the sea on the other end of the world. You hide a scroll or other item containing teleport with it, and keep a cache of magic items, including spare spellbooks, at another well-guarded or inaccessible location. Distances are irrelevant, since you've got teleport. (And if you're clever, you know it through Spell Mastery, which negates any need for teleport items.)

[Chronos]

The funny thing is, the monster description says that most liches put their phylactery on a headband so they can always wear it. Yeah, of course. We'll fall for that one.

Another reason why Disjunction is a bad strategy for dealing with phylacteries is that liches can start showing up when the players are around level 11, while Disjunction only becomes available once you hit at least 17. Power Attack with a big honkin' hammer, however, becomes available at around level 1.

[MammonAzrael]

Power Attack with a big honkin' hammer, however, becomes available at around level 1.

But...but...that gives the melee character something to do!

[Nemoricus]

Another reason why Disjunction is a bad strategy for dealing with phylacteries is that liches can start showing up when the players are around level 11...

Where'd you get that one? The template doesn't specify a level or HD.

[arguskos]

Where'd you get that one? The template doesn't specify a level or HD.
The lowest level the lich template can be applied is level 11. With it adding +2 CR, it stands to reason that a CR 13 (level 11) lich can show up against the players at around the time they hit level 11.

-argus

[hamishspence]

Adept liches are slightly weaker: CR 12 level 11. But yes.

[Tsotha-lanti]

The lowest level the lich template can be applied is level 11. With it adding +2 CR, it stands to reason that a CR 13 (level 11) lich can show up against the players at around the time they hit level 11.

-argus

Actually, minimum CR 13 means they can easily show up when the PCs are around level 8-9. An EL (level + 4) encounter is "hard", and a good "single big monster/BBEG/villain" encounter.

[hamishspence]

CR 12. If the idea of adepts has appeal (might be a bit underpowered for CR 12)

[Nemoricus]

The lowest level the lich template can be applied is level 11. With it adding +2 CR, it stands to reason that a CR 13 (level 11) lich can show up against the players at around the time they hit level 11.

-argus

Not according to the Hyperlink D20 SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/lich.htm).



"Lich" is an acquired template that can be added to any humanoid creature (referred to hereafter as the base creature), provided it can create the required phylactery.

[hamishspence]

Yes, but not everyone uses SRD's, some use just published books. And no published WoTC book does liches that way.

[fractic]

Yes, but not everyone uses SRD's, some use just published books. And no published WoTC book does liches that way.

Except, you know, the MM.

[edit]: As far as I can tell the MM and the SRD entries on Lich are pretty much identical. To be fair the SRD also mentions the caster level requirement.

[arguskos]

Indeed, in the printed Monster Manual, it does specify minimum level 11.

Also, on the CR/appropriate level thingy, meh? I tend to ignore CR and look at capability instead. Since I refuse to play monsters/enemies like morons, I would not use a level 11 caster lich before at least 10th level. Just preference though. *shrug*

-argus

[Vexxation]

Not according to the Hyperlink D20 SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/lich.htm).

ten characters

The Lich’s Phylactery

*snip*The character must be able to cast spells and have a caster level of 11th or higher.*snip*

[Vonriel]

As someone already mentioned, you'd likely destroy a large cache of loot to do this trick. Above and beyond that, you'd have your understandably very angry party members to get away from before they went all hammer-crazy on your backside for blowing up a large cache of loot.

[Nemoricus]

You're right. Sorry.

[AlexanderRM]

Sure, assuming you can find its phylactery in the first place. Most Liches won't just wear it around on their person, it will be hidden away in a safe place. Most would just Ethereal Jaunt or Shapechange into an Earth Elemental and find an inaccessible cavern underneath a mountain, or Disintegrate a room out of the solid stone. Line the walls with lead, put the Phylactery there with a few spare copies of its spellbook and components, and a backup set of magical gear, and a permanencied Teleportation Circle leading to its primary lair. It also helps if the room is filled with some sort of poisonous gas, just in case something stumbles upon it, and blanket the area with permanencied alarm spells so he knows when anyone even happens to dig/explore nearby.

I need to record that list in case I ever become a lich.



This is provided your DM doesn't rule the Lich's phylactery an artifact. If the Lich is the BBEG for a campaign, it's a strong possibility.

And I want to know how to make my phylactery an artifact.




But Aumvor the Undying has 206 phylacteries. (Each bone in a human skeleton.) Granted, he used an epic spell to do that, but NPCs don't need to follow the rules to do cool plot stuff off-screen.

I also want to know how to make multiple phylacteries.

[arguskos]

I also want to know how to make multiple phylacteries.
Normally, you can't. However, there is an epic spell in Champions of Ruin that splits your essence in two parts, thus making another phylactery. He did this lots of times, creating 206 total phylacteries.

-argus

[Mewtarthio]

I need to record that list in case I ever become a lich.

Just be sure to check with your DM first as to whether or not you regenerate next to the phylactery and how the process works. A DM might, for instance, state that you regenerate by possessing a nearby corpse, in which case you're stuck in your unfindable phylactery until some poor fool stumbles across it.


And I want to know how to make my phylactery and artifact.

RAW, the only way to make an artifact is to become a god.


I also want to know how to make multiple phylacteries.

It takes epic spellcasting. I know that there's an epic spell out there somewhere that lets you split your phylactery...

[hamishspence]

epic items can have same powers as some artifacts.

The "possess nearby corpse" is more a dracolich thing.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

I need to record that list in case I ever become a lich.Why bother? Get a group of LE/LN/NE full-or-partial casters who are willing to enter into an agreement with you that benefits everyone. You all become Liches. You make each other your Phylactaries. In case one of you dies, the contingent spells go off, wards are activated, and the like. The person who is the dead Lich's Phylactary retreats to his personal Genesis plane, as does the Favored Soul and the Io7fv. The Beguiler goes into hiding as well, but not on a Genesis plane, and he will remain out of contact with the others other than by a pre-arranged signal that all is clear, or that a second has fallen. The others teleport to a preset meeting place on another Genesis plane, where they discuss the problem, communicate with the Casters in hiding, and figure out how to kill the guy that took out their friend. If a second is lost, everyone retreats until they both have regenerated, and they confer in hopes of a new plan. All 9 have to die within a few days of each other in order to be destroyed.

Obviously this is better for DMs than for players, but I want to set this up at one point.

[Dr Bwaa]

I will just add my voice to the choir of "You shouldn't use Mordy's Disjunction."

My deal (as a DM) with all my players is the following.

If you use Disjunction once, I get to use Disjunction once. If you use it twice, I get to use it twice. If you use it three times, your lives, gear, and souls are forfeit.

[DigoDragon]

If you use Disjunction once, I get to use Disjunction once. If you use it twice, I get to use it twice. If you use it three times, your lives, gear, and souls are forfeit.

Naw, while I usually use the same pact of "I'll only use what you're using", I dunno about forfeiting souls. Too much paperwork there. :smallamused: I think Disjunction is self-punishing as is considering the players probably just killed all their magical treasure for the encounter.

That hurts worse then death to me.

[Tsotha-lanti]

I need to record that list in case I ever become a lich.

Don't bother - just greater teleport onto your world's moon-equivalent and use spells to construct a hide-out and magic cache there.


I also want to know how to make multiple phylacteries.

I don't recall if the spell is actually detailed in CoR, but like I said already, Aumvor used an epic spell to do that. He's something like CR 35, and a Netherese Arcanist (and actually from Netheril, as far as I recall).

[Kaiyanwang]

A nether scroll from Lost Empires of Faerun teaches how to craft artifacts (maybe I don't remember well never used it)

The level of an enemy (or PC) able to unlock such awesome power is another issue.. the Nether scroll are CL 40 or so.. :smalleek:

[hamishspence]

"Ars Factum: Unknown. Reputedly this chapter of the nether scrolls taught the reader how to create artifacts. However, an additional key of some kind is needed to unlock this set of scrolls, and the spellcasters of the Winding Tower never discovered it."

Remember Nether scrolls are usually found singly, and you need a whole chapter of 10 scrolls to use the chapter benefit.

[AlexanderRM]

Normally, you can't. However, there is an epic spell in Champions of Ruin that splits your essence in two parts, thus making another phylactery. He did this lots of times, creating 206 total phylacteries.

-argus
Wait... does the spell automatically create another phylactery? Or just give you the ability to create another one?



Just be sure to check with your DM first as to whether or not you regenerate next to the phylactery and how the process works. A DM might, for instance, state that you regenerate by possessing a nearby corpse, in which case you're stuck in your unfindable phylactery until some poor fool stumbles across it.



RAW, the only way to make an artifact is to become a god.

#1. I'd think it would be kinda assumed that anyone who takes the Craft Wondrous Items and spends all that time making a phylactery in order to become a lich might have some basic understanding of how lichdom works.
#2. So... are there ten incredibly similar gods out there somewhere who each created one of the orbs of dragonkind, or were all ten of them created by one extremely powerful overdeity? Well, come to think of it, Vecna created at least three, and... most of the major artifacts actually don't say who created them. 3.0 Psionics handbook definitely seems to imply that the annulus, at least, was created by regular Illithids...
Can you point me to anything that specifically lists the mechanics on creation of artifacts? Like, for example, is there a limit to how many artifacts a deity can create?



epic items can have same powers as some artifacts.
It's mostly the "can only be destroyed by a specific means" thing that matters, though a phylactery with the same powers as, say, a sphere of annihilation (not sure how you'd build that and regenerate out of it) would be quite useful. Or even the evilness quality of things like the Talisman of Ultimate Evil, or something like that that harms any good creature that touches it.



Why bother? Get a group of LE/LN/NE full-or-partial casters who are willing to enter into an agreement with you that benefits everyone. You all become Liches. You make each other your Phylactaries. In case one of you dies, the contingent spells go off, wards are activated, and the like. The person who is the dead Lich's Phylactary retreats to his personal Genesis plane, as does the Favored Soul and the Io7fv. The Beguiler goes into hiding as well, but not on a Genesis plane, and he will remain out of contact with the others other than by a pre-arranged signal that all is clear, or that a second has fallen. The others teleport to a preset meeting place on another Genesis plane, where they discuss the problem, communicate with the Casters in hiding, and figure out how to kill the guy that took out their friend. If a second is lost, everyone retreats until they both have regenerated, and they confer in hopes of a new plan. All 9 have to die within a few days of each other in order to be destroyed.

Obviously this is better for DMs than for players, but I want to set this up at one point.
I'm not so sure about that... you'd definitely need several people who you can trust with your life, and in any case it might cause problems if you want to take over the world YOURSELF.
I wonder if a group of Formians could do that somehow... if you could find a way to make a phylactery that's inactive until you die (only if you die permanently?) then you could have each queen take Craft Wondrous items and make the previous queen into her phylactery, and thus have something like that with all the former queens... the only issue is how to start it up. If you could fiddle around with something near the beginning, then maybe you could have one of the early queens be the phylactery of both the first queen and the queen after her, if it's possible for something to be a phylactery for two liches at once.


Though, on the note of genesis planes, is there any limit to how large a phylactery can be?

What about familiars and such? Say, I wonder if there's any way to get a familiar with the Craft Wondrous Items feat and a caster level of 11th level or higher... ooh, but you could definitely have a cohort become a lich. Still, doing a lich circle with two people wouldn't be very effective, but if you could also include your familiar... and maybe have two phylacteries each (or even 3+, including at least one traditional inanimate phylacery- or not-so-traditonal, using some of the other ideas here) on top of that... well, it would be better than nothing.



Don't bother - just greater teleport onto your world's moon-equivalent and use spells to construct a hide-out and magic cache there.
What if the material plane isn't a round world with a moon?
Even if it is, chances are other people have gotten the same idea (assuming the DM doesn't rule that even Greater Teleport can't be used to get off of the planet). If the material plane has galaxies (and the DM hasn't ruled that), though, that's a different story...

[arguskos]

Wait... does the spell automatically create another phylactery? Or just give you the ability to create another one?
It automatically splits the targeted phylactery into two. You gain one every time you cast the spell.

Also, thread necromancy ftl?

-argus

[mostlyharmful]

It automatically splits the targeted phylactery into two. You gain one every time you cast the spell.

Also, thread necromancy ftl?

-argus

Actually it splits the phylactery into an additional number of pieces equal to your casting stats modifier. It can also spread the phylactery amoung other objects if you don't want your shiney thingamibob shattered.

[monty]

It's only a couple of weeks old. That's not too evil of a necromancy.

As for trusting other liches with your soul...
Who says you need to take over the world entirely by yourself? That's a lot of paperwork. Rule the world with the others in an immortal oligarchy.

[mostlyharmful]

It's only a couple of weeks old. That's not too evil of a necromancy.

As for trusting other liches with your soul...
Who says you need to take over the world entirely by yourself? That's a lot of paperwork.

Meh, that's what mindrape's for.

[monty]

Aren't undead immune to Mindrape, since it's mind-affecting?

[mostlyharmful]

Aren't undead immune to Mindrape, since it's mind-affecting?

There's plenty of powerful potential minions out there that aren't undead if you want to run the world. Dragons, Outsiders, Kings and Archwizards just waiting to be your very special friend.:smallbiggrin:

[monty]

There's plenty of powerful potential minions out there that aren't undead if you want to run the world. Dragons, Outsiders, Kings and Archwizards just waiting to be your very special friend.:smallbiggrin:

Sure, but you can't really make an agreement with them that puts their soul in your body and therefore gives them a very good reason to want to keep you "alive." Also, most of them aren't immortal.

[insecure]

Also, thread necromancy ftl?

-argus

It's funnier to use this picture: :smallwink::smalltongue:
http://www.game-warden.com/starfox/Non_SF_related_stuff/JS47/Thread_Necromancy.jpg

[mostlyharmful]

Sure, but you can't really make an agreement with them that puts their soul in your body and therefore gives them a very good reason to want to keep you "alive." Also, most of them aren't immortal.

Different part of the arguement, minions in this context are to do with having someone to do the paperwork after you conquer the world. Golems are a nice housing for your phylactery if what you're wanting a trustworthy minion, doubly so if you get to epic and can cast Aumvors Shattered Phylactery since you can have hundreds of safehouses.

Although a phylactery can't be a magic item when it's created I don't know of any rules blocking making it part of a magic item after the fact, so I've had BBEGs which built it into Adamantine Golems in the past.

[monty]

It's funnier to use this picture: :smallwink::smalltongue:
http://www.game-warden.com/starfox/Non_SF_related_stuff/JS47/Thread_Necromancy.jpg

I like this one better:
http://www.hookahforum.com/uploads/1165808825/gallery_2063_3_17264.jpg

[Hairb]

Disjunction generally falls outside the gentlemens' agreement anyways - used against PCs, it can swiftly destroy most of their wealth-per-level and used against opponents, it can annihilate all would-be loot. And the spell is nuts. Seriously, it was the only spell of 9th level or lower that was banned in level 50 gestalt arena. In fact, if a world existed where the spell was used, I'd expect the average Wealth Per Level to be 10th of the normal guideline simply because all equipment gets periodically smashed and crashed.

Tell me more about this gentleman's agreement.

[Waspinator]

I think it's the basic "don't be a jerk agreement" that exists between players and DMs. Other aspects of it include "no Pun-Pun" and "are you sure you want to say Pazuzu?".

[Crow]

Disjunction generally falls outside the gentlemens' agreement anyways - used against PCs, it can swiftly destroy most of their wealth-per-level and used against opponents, it can annihilate all would-be loot. And the spell is nuts. Seriously, it was the only spell of 9th level or lower that was banned in level 50 gestalt arena. In fact, if a world existed where the spell was used, I'd expect the average Wealth Per Level to be 10th of the normal guideline simply because all equipment gets periodically smashed and crashed.

Well I'm not a gentleman I guess, because I use Disjunction all the time...If I'm playing an Archmage with Mastery of Shaping. You shape it so that only the areas you want to disjoin are affected by the spell. Now you don't want to throw it all over the place, and you certainly don't want to drop it on top of a kitted-out villian except in dire circumstances, but you can get a lot more use out of it than is usually assumed.

Of course, this only really applies to Archmages.

[Battleship789]

I guess I am not a gentleman either. Most of my high level spellcasters have disjunction or an epic-version of the spell but I think it evens out when one considers that my GM likes to give his villians excellent items, even at low levels :smalleek:. And yet we still turn out to be short on gold/items after a sessions. Maybe it is from all the resurrections we have to pay for...

As to the phylactery-artifact idea: Making a lich's phylactery an artifact won't really change the outcome of a disjunction. The spell has a (caster level)% to disjunct ANYTHING, including artifacts. At the least, this gives a 17% chance to destroy the item. At these levels one usually has items that augment caster level (ioun stones in particular) which makes this % chance even higher. Any high level caster could possibly use the spell more than once, especially a sorcerer, almost guaranteeing the destruction of any item.

Hopefully I am not being too wordy. First post on the GitP forums. :smallbiggrin:

[monty]

As to the phylactery-artifact idea: Making a lich's phylactery an artifact won't really change the outcome of a disjunction. The spell has a (caster level)% to disjunct ANYTHING, including artifacts. At the least, this gives a 17% chance to destroy the item. At these levels one usually has items that augment caster level (ioun stones in particular) which makes this % chance even higher. Any high level caster could possibly use the spell more than once, especially a sorcerer, almost guaranteeing the destruction of any item.

This isn't entirely correct. First, magic items are automatically affected, and only get a will save to not turn into normal items. Only antimagic fields and artifacts have the 1% per level chance (and the latter still get a will save).

Also, breaking artifacts is dangerous. It's a DC 25 will save to not permanently lose all spellcasting (hello, commoner with a good will save!), and even with a great save, you still fail on a 1. Do you want to risk 17+ levels of work on a 5% chance? Regular magic items are much safer to kill.

[NephandiMan]

Different part of the arguement, minions in this context are to do with having someone to do the paperwork after you conquer the world. Golems are a nice housing for your phylactery if what you're wanting a trustworthy minion, doubly so if you get to epic and can cast Aumvors Shattered Phylactery since you can have hundreds of safehouses.

Although a phylactery can't be a magic item when it's created I don't know of any rules blocking making it part of a magic item after the fact, so I've had BBEGs which built it into Adamantine Golems in the past.

Was Tony Stark able to build it in a cave?

(Now I have a mental image of Stark as a lich...and it. Is. Awesome).

[Ozymandias9]

Mage's disjunction would, for most cases, be overkill on a phylactery. Or pretty much anything else. It's an exceptionally disruptive spell unless you're playing in a very low magic setting (in which case, it's generally useless). It's one of those spells that's so fundamentally game altering that if its expected to be used on more than a rare occasion, it usually gets house ruled rather than played as written.

But yes, as written, it would work.


The funny thing is, the monster description says that most liches put their phylactery on a headband so they can always wear it. Yeah, of course. We'll fall for that one.

The origin of that is actually in the real world origin of the word "phylactery." It is the Greek term for a "Tefillin," an element of Jewish religion. It is a box connected to a leather strap, worn on the forehead ("hel rosh") or the forearm and hand ("shel yad"). It contains Torah passages and serves as a sign of rememberance of God's deliverance of the Jews out of Egypt.

The actual Greek term comes from "phulakt r," meaning safeguard (there is some disagreement about the second word, but the "phulakt" part, which means guard, is fairly firm). The term is used almost exclusively in New Testament translations that go through the Greek: early Christianity in Greece needed a way to explain some New Testament passages referencing Tefilin to gentiles who had never seen one.

The more you know!


#2. So... are there ten incredibly similar gods out there somewhere who each created one of the orbs of dragonkind, or were all ten of them created by one extremely powerful overdeity? Well, come to think of it, Vecna created at least three, and... most of the major artifacts actually don't say who created them. 3.0 Psionics handbook definitely seems to imply that the annulus, at least, was created by regular Illithids...
Can you point me to anything that specifically lists the mechanics on creation of artifacts? Like, for example, is there a limit to how many artifacts a deity can create?
To my knowledge, the only formal rules for artifact creation are dealt with in Deities&Demigods, where it is reserved for divine rank 16 and above. That said, there is no indication in the rules that that is the only way to create artifacts. It is merely the only way for which rules are provided. The only rule given is that they cannot be created by known ordinary mortal means (though the knowledge may have been more common at an earlier period).

[Muad'dib]

Abusing the "usually a box" clause in the lich's phylactery description has led some friends of mine to an unusual type of Phylactery, namely the patented hobosock phylactery. Store your soul in a sock. Allow a hobo to find it. He'll keep the supernaturally sturdy sock and wander the world. Make sure you've enchanted it to not register as magical. Voila. Those pesky adventurers will never* find your soul now bwa hahahaha!

*Obviously they can find it, no I don't want to hear about it.

[Molant]

My favorite phylactery is a pebble. No one knows where it is or what it is; it's just a rock.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

My favorite phylactery is a pebble. No one knows where it is or what it is; it's just a rock.I prefer using another Lich. Nothing like an immortal undead mage for proteection. Especially if he's protected his phylactary well. Say, making another Lich his Phylactary, for example.

[arguskos]

I like using a player character. Yes, that's right. I make a PC my phylactery, and then proceed to laugh if they ever come to fight me, as I'll just be sure they don't die.

Of course, I know this breaks all sorts of phylactery rules (which I believe cannot be living creatures), but damnit, we're talking about a lich here! Who cares about the rules? :smallwink:

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Why bother with an MDJ? Just have your friendly local Meat Shield sunder it into oblivion. Gives him something to do and feel useful.

Now, here's what I'd do, were I a litch...

First off, my Phylactery is in my Study Room. Not to be confused with my Primary Residence. My Study Room is somewhere... inconvenient to get to. Say maybe on a Genesis Plane, on the Moon, a mile underground... you get the drift... some place that pesky adventurers aren't going to accidentally stumble into.

My Study Room has my Primary Spellbook. It *NEVER* leaves my Study Room. This is, after all, where my Phylactery is, so if I am defeated, I'm going to need to re-memorize my spells once I regenerate anyways.

I grabbed a level of Archmage and netted myself a casting of Greater Teleport as an SLA 2/day, so I can always go to and from my Study Room without needing to worry about it. In this way, I can go back to my Study Room and re-prepare all my spells when I run low.

Now, my Primary Residence is likely something more conveniently located for my goals, be it world domination, destruction, or combining the two lofty goals by creating a whole new world of undead under my command. It will be here that most pesky adventurers will encounter me, and they will naturally assume that my phylactery is somewhere within this structure. In fact, I will leave at least six objects which resemble phylacteries, with Magic Aura cast upon them to make them detect as though they were my phylactery, and place them ALL in extremely inconvenient locations within my Primary Residence. We're talking the Deathtrap Dungeon section, perhaps a single book in an entire library the size of a small nation, or even buried ten feet under my 'throne room', in a separate 10' X 10' room with no other entrances. If they find one, they will immediately assume that they found and destroyed my phylactery. Suckers.

[herrhauptmann]

On the subject of making your phylactery an artifact, how about using one of the talismans of good, or the Book of Exalted Deeds?

Not only are they artifacts, but with some roleplay reasons, you can justify destroying one of those to upset the balance of the entire cosmos, with good coming out as the loser.

Now the party has a whole new campaign: Destroy the phylactery without destroying the world. Sounds sorta like something from Heroes....

[AslanCross]

The funny thing is, the monster description says that most liches put their phylactery on a headband so they can always wear it. Yeah, of course. We'll fall for that one.


I guess that's just a holdover from the original use of the word (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/phylactery), which was a small receptacle for carrying a piece of religious text.

[MickJay]

Concerning use of another lich as phylactery - a lich is not living anymore, so it's OK, but what's the point? That way the phylactery is even easier to destroy than "master" lich's original form - the other lich will probably be weaker, may be destroyed by a random group of adventurers who just keep killing monsters for fun and profit, and if he regenerates, he might no longer be a phylactery (depends on GM, but I would make it work that way).

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Concerning use of another lich as phylactery - a lich is not living anymore, so it's OK, but what's the point? That way the phylactery is even easier to destroy than "master" lich's original form - the other lich will probably be weaker, may be destroyed by a random group of adventurers who just keep killing monsters for fun and profit, and if he regenerates, he might no longer be a phylactery (depends on GM, but I would make it work that way).That would be true, if I planned on doing it as a player. However, my party of Liches, who were good, but expirimented with necromancy to slaughter the murderers of their Paladin friend, and to make themselves immortal, and now are all one another's phylactaries, is definitely a DM-only tool. So it works the way I say it does.

[Khanderas]

Sure it works, but im still gonna vote in favour of "Gwyndolf's Hammer and Anvil" technique.

1. Place the phyactry on a hard surface.
2. Bash it hard with a hammer.

Can be done at any level and has no prerequisites.

[BobVosh]

This thread apparently has a Phylactery. Came back from the dead o.O

Anyway, what is the size limitation on a Phylactery? I would make the planet one. Without anti-matter crap I should be fairly safe.

[lord_khaine]

the funny thing about all the crazy things you can do to hide your phylactery, is that it only takes a lucky hit from a guy with the right prestice class, to make it all a waste of time.

[Zaq]

Anyway, what is the size limitation on a Phylactery? I would make the planet one. Without anti-matter crap I should be fairly safe.

The problem with that is, if that's possible, it's ridiculously unlikely that you're the first one to have tried it. Can you stuff multiple souls in one phylactery? What kind of fun effects would that have, I wonder?

[BobVosh]

The problem with that is, if that's possible, it's ridiculously unlikely that you're the first one to have tried it. Can you stuff multiple souls in one phylactery? What kind of fun effects would that have, I wonder?

World seems big enough for it. Obviously you have to learn this dance to do it though: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8VFKDgoVf5I

[PrismaticPIA]

Sure, assuming you can find its phylactery in the first place. Most Liches won't just wear it around on their person, it will be hidden away in a safe place. Most would just Ethereal Jaunt or Shapechange into an Earth Elemental and find an inaccessible cavern underneath a mountain, or Disintegrate a room out of the solid stone. Line the walls with lead, put the Phylactery there with a few spare copies of its spellbook and components, and a backup set of magical gear, and a permanencied Teleportation Circle leading to its primary lair. It also helps if the room is filled with some sort of poisonous gas, just in case something stumbles upon it, and blanket the area with permanencied alarm spells so he knows when anyone even happens to dig/explore nearby.

If anyone ever managed to find a Lich's phylactery, they may as well just attack it with Power Attack to destroy it, rather than waste a 9th level spell that they may need when the lich or its minions show up.

I played a lich in an epic game once. I took the feat that lets you have multiple phylacteries, made a couple thousand, cast a couple dozen auras to magic their magic, polymorphed half them into raw iron, blacksmithed them into horseshoes, and started a peddling business. Took half of the remaining, polymorphed them into local currency (not gold-based) and went on a shopping spree. Chucked the rest down the Eternal Staircase....except for one.

[Yahzi]

The more you know!
Awesome explanation. Thanks!