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AkazilliaDeNaro
2008-09-02, 04:56 PM
they just play video games all day long (i think) and just don't accept the idea that you can play a game that is based in your head. what do i do.:smalleek:

Knaight
2008-09-02, 04:58 PM
Its a lost cause, don't bother. Unless they are still very young.

Mark Hall
2008-09-02, 05:02 PM
Invite them over for a game. Premake some characters, about 2-3 for every player, and run them a game. Let them get into slaying kobolds or leaping off a cliff onto a giant's head.

My favorite line for video-game players (which, in my snobbery, I do not consider "gamers") is "Have you ever wanted to do something in a game, but have been unable to do because the game wouldn't let it happen? You couldn't ask the right question, you couldn't make a jump attack, whatever? In RPGs, that's not a problem... you do anything you can describe to the GM... provided your character could do it."

Swordguy
2008-09-02, 05:05 PM
they just play video games all day long (i think) and just don't accept the idea that you can play a game that is based in your head. what do i do.:smalleek:

1) Buy a taser
2) Use it
3) Profit!

Pronounceable
2008-09-02, 05:06 PM
Its a lost cause, don't bother. Unless they are still very young.

Seconded. Damn character limit

chiasaur11
2008-09-02, 05:13 PM
1) Buy a taser
2) Use it
3) Profit!

You left out step three: ????

Kredine
2008-09-02, 05:15 PM
It's not a lost cause.
I have converted gamer friends.

You just pester them every day over and over and over and over etc, until they agree to try out one game.
Take it on from there.

However you may have to allow their first character to have some things quite high powered/ give too much experience or something.
Something to keep them interested until they really like the game.

Lycan 01
2008-09-02, 05:27 PM
Invite them over for a game. Premake some characters, about 2-3 for every player, and run them a game. Let them get into slaying kobolds or leaping off a cliff onto a giant's head.

My favorite line for video-game players (which, in my snobbery, I do not consider "gamers") is "Have you ever wanted to do something in a game, but have been unable to do because the game wouldn't let it happen? You couldn't ask the right question, you couldn't make a jump attack, whatever? In RPGs, that's not a problem... you do anything you can describe to the GM... provided your character could do it."


Sounds like a plan, right there...


I just asked people who had experience with RPGs, in video game and type form. Eventually, my silver tongue enticed a few gamer friends. Now my Call of Cthulhu group numbers 7, not including me...

snoopy13a
2008-09-02, 05:28 PM
You could always try a step by step approach. Go with boardgames or cardgames first then work your way up to tabletop RPGs.

Lycan 01
2008-09-02, 05:29 PM
That works, too. Arkham Horror, a Cthulhu-based board game, was instrumental in founding my gaming group...

AkazilliaDeNaro
2008-09-02, 05:35 PM
Its a lost cause, don't bother. Unless they are still very young.
they are both 14

Invite them over for a game. Premake some characters, about 2-3 for every player, and run them a game. Let them get into slaying kobolds or leaping off a cliff onto a giant's head.

My favorite line for video-game players (which, in my snobbery, I do not consider "gamers") is "Have you ever wanted to do something in a game, but have been unable to do because the game wouldn't let it happen? You couldn't ask the right question, you couldn't make a jump attack, whatever? In RPGs, that's not a problem... you do anything you can describe to the GM... provided your character could do it."
that might work but i dont think i could word it right

Tormsskull
2008-09-02, 05:40 PM
Good luck to you, you have your work cut out. If you somehow succeed, please make sure to tell us. Please.

Lycan 01
2008-09-02, 05:43 PM
14? Eeeeeh... Good luck. It won't be easy. Its possible, though. I got my bro and his 14 yo friend to play. Granted, their mission to kill a Kobold staying at a hotel backfired miserably, and it also somehow led to the mayor's daughter losing her innocence...

Now I remember why I don't play with them anymore.....

Oracle_Hunter
2008-09-02, 05:50 PM
Oh hey, 14 is totally possible. I'd second Mark Hall there, perhaps with the additional note of finding their favorite IP Franchise (Star Wars, Warhammer, Wheel of Time... Halo?) and picking up a copy of its RPG. It's always easier to suck people in with that they're familiar with, rather than a brand new world.

And there should still be plenty RP-Lite Board Games to work from. Tabletop Wargames are also a neat way to get people into turning off the tube. :smalltongue:

Myatar_Panwar
2008-09-02, 05:55 PM
I had one friend very similar to the one you described. Plays video games all day, and didn't really understand how you could enjoy a game you couldent physically see, but made up in your head.

I think he was 16 when we recruited him. Still plays now. Although he is the one person least likely to want to write anything down ever, as he despises downtime and book work. He actually dislikes leveling because it takes away from the action of the game. :smalleek: But he still enjoys the story elements quite a bit, so its all good.

Edit: But yes, I suggest thinking of what archetypes they would be most willing to play as (sword fighter, magic user) and pre-make some characters and a pre-made dungeon crawl without much RP elements till after. Once their freedom hits them in the face as they find themselves doing obscure things to get passed encounters, they should be more willing to do NPC encounters, and less confused on how they work (fighting is easy to understand. They have rules for that. But talking to fictional NPC's and roleplaying fictional characters might take a little time, is all im trying to point out).

Mushroom Ninja
2008-09-02, 05:57 PM
14? Eeeeeh... Good luck. It won't be easy. Its possible, though. I got my bro and his 14 yo friend to play. Granted, their mission to kill a Kobold staying at a hotel backfired miserably, and it also somehow led to the mayor's daughter losing her innocence...

Now I remember why I don't play with them anymore.....

Oh dear...

Well, I've had some success getting people around that age to play. Star Wars RPG works well to pull in people who have experience with Lucas Arts video games.

Matthew
2008-09-02, 05:59 PM
Heroquest! Or in this modern day and age, probably Descent is your best bet to hook them in. If they just prefer video games you will soon know.

Charity
2008-09-02, 06:49 PM
^ Bingo

I was about to suggest Descent, it is quite expensive though, and I figure the op is quite young, so...
There are (http://cgi.ebay.com/DUNGEONS-DRAGONS-FANTASY-BOARD-GAME-PARKER-2003_W0QQitemZ190247017929QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item 190247017929&_trksid=p3286.m63.l1177) cheaper alternatives (http://cgi.ebay.com/HeroQuest-HERO-QUEST-GAME-RPG-SYSTEM-MB-1989_W0QQitemZ290257336003QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item 290257336003&_trkparms=72%3A1142%7C39%3A2%7C66%3A4%7C65%3A12%7C 240%3A1318&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14)

EvilElitest
2008-09-02, 07:38 PM
insert snarky remark about 4E's video game like qualities that totally derail the thread into a flame war here

Anyways, i think sword guy got the steps down right

1) buy taser
2) Test it on a mime (nobody likes mimes) or if you can find one, a gnome
3) prove them right through your skilled diplomatic skills (and taser)
4)?????
5) Profit
from
EE

Lyndworm
2008-09-02, 07:41 PM
Let them get into slaying kobolds or leaping off a cliff onto a giant's head.

In thefirst adventure I ran for my little brother he actually ran up a hill and jumped onto an ogre's back.

Zack

Vazzaroth
2008-09-02, 08:00 PM
I had an ex-girlfriend who would RP online and *gasp* play FURCADIA. But she would get PISSED when I brought up tabletop RPGs. She even played various video games based loosely off of DnD, but denied it.

Needless to say, I have a much awesome-er girlfriend now. :smallwink:

Lycan 01
2008-09-02, 08:07 PM
My girlfriend pushed me to get DnD. O_o I mentioned on the phone to her one day that I'd been reading about it online. My casual remark piqued her interest, and she started asking questions. So due to her prodding, we tried out DnD, and now we <3 RPGs...


Gamer girlfriends, ftw! XD

Xuincherguixe
2008-09-02, 08:37 PM
14? Eeeeeh... Good luck. It won't be easy. Its possible, though. I got my bro and his 14 yo friend to play. Granted, their mission to kill a Kobold staying at a hotel backfired miserably, and it also somehow led to the mayor's daughter losing her innocence...

Now I remember why I don't play with them anymore.....

Hey, I got into Shadowrun when I was 12. Well, sort of. Not a whole lot of people were interested at that point, and my understanding of the rules was totally wrong, but that's where I started from :P

Knaight
2008-09-02, 09:00 PM
Oh hey, 14 is totally possible. I'd second Mark Hall there, perhaps with the additional note of finding their favorite IP Franchise (Star Wars, Warhammer, Wheel of Time... Halo?) and picking up a copy of its RPG. It's always easier to suck people in with that they're familiar with, rather than a brand new world.

And there should still be plenty RP-Lite Board Games to work from. Tabletop Wargames are also a neat way to get people into turning off the tube. :smalltongue:

Oh yeah. 10-14 is really easy, I've personally brought in somewhere around 15 10-12 year olds. Also I would advise against using D&D, at least at first. Start with a lighter game, so that they aren't turned off by the rules. I would use Fudge, but there is also always Risus, Minimus, and a few other games.

metalbear
2008-09-02, 09:23 PM
My little brother got into it when he was 15. Our DM just helped him make a character and just threw him into the game and explained the rules as we went. Mind you, he was totally into absurd role play that the freedom of D&D provides (his half-orc barbarian called himself a dentist, but had no skills in anything like it, he would just go up to a wounded foes and start pulling out their teeth with a hammer and his bare hands). My biggest suggestion is to highlight how fun that freedom can be, and there are "endless possibilities".

kjones
2008-09-02, 09:27 PM
I started playing when I was 8, but that's because I wanted to. If somebody tried to make me sit down for hours at a time to play a game I wasn't interested in, I would have probably thrown a fit.

Sadly, this probably applies to my 14-year-old self as well...

Seriously, video gamers are already halfway to being RPG'ers - they've proven a willingness to spend stupefying amounts of time doing things that normal people find completely asinine. They just need a little push.

Oracle_Hunter
2008-09-02, 09:35 PM
Oh yeah. 10-14 is really easy, I've personally brought in somewhere around 15 10-12 year olds. Also I would advise against using D&D, at least at first. Start with a lighter game, so that they aren't turned off by the rules. I would use Fudge, but there is also always Risus, Minimus, and a few other games.

Actually, 4e is optimal for getting people into RPGs. The problem with Fudge is that too much is left up to the players & GM's imaginations - this can get daunting for people not used to improv. 4e basically requires a grid and miniatures (easy to visualize), the combat system has enough depth to allow "awesome attacks" while not being so complicated as to turn them off, and it is incredibly easy to run.

Let's face it: WotC sought to make a system which could bring in new players while also satisfying older, more "sophisticated" gamers. While the latter claim is prone to creating Internet Backdrafts (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/InternetBackdraft) I don't think anyone will deny that 4e is very accessible to new gamers.

Knaight
2008-09-02, 09:48 PM
They're 14, with school as it is they probably have taken a theater class, which typically include theater. They probably aren't as deep into it as most of my Fudge players(I'm the GM and do technical theater, improv, and some acting if at all possible, although I got into theater through gaming, not vice versa), but it doesn't take much. Plus if you've read books, and liked them, then Fudge works. As for grid and minis, that just gets irritating for people who actually want to imagine everything, as its a bit of an impediment, the combat system does allow awesome attacks, which tends to overshadow the whole "do anything you want, your not restricted by code", its still a 30 dollar 300 page rulebook, which does turn people off, and unlike in videogames it takes a while to create a character. Its accessible, but the sheer length and time required will turn of videogame players used to faster paced stuff with less work.

Its definitely not what I would use.

DeathQuaker
2008-09-02, 09:51 PM
Beat them! They're clearly outsiders and must be punished! :smallbiggrin:

Or... maybe try to tie in RPGs to the kind of video games they like. Maybe it's D&D specifically... frex, if they're into sci-fi FPSes, it's going to be hard to convince them they really want to be Delbran the Elf who waves his magic wand all day long..... but maybe you could convince them that shooting the power-armored enemy is all the more fun when YOU control the story and can do what you want, and have them try d20 Modern or Mutants and Masterminds (which is all d20 so won't be hard for you to learn, or for them to convert to D&D later). Maybe they like Star Wars? SWSE for the win then.

(Or of course, there are a million NON d20 RPGs out there that are tons of fun, but I just don't know what you're familiar with. Maybe they like anime? Play some BESM. Etc.)

If they do like fantasy video games, it's just a matter of showing them how they can recreate that feel in a tabletop RPG and on top of that, so much more. Maybe show them your characters, or a fun example of gameplay. Find out what they enjoy in the games they do play and show them how they can emulate that.

And in the end, if they're still not interested... they're just not interested. Table top RPGs, much as I adore them, are not for everyone. Not all friends have the same interests. It happens. Better to find people who will enthusiastically embrace the hobby because you'll have more fun too.... and you can still get together with your video gamer buddies to pound some pixels too. :smallsmile:

Knaight
2008-09-02, 10:01 PM
Sticking to genre is probably better than sticking to an individual setting. Sure, star wars is cool, but the term "Military Black Ops Sci Fi" has a nice ring to it, as far as most fourteen year old gamers are concerned. So does "You guys are going to assassinate people, plant bombs, steal weapons, ships, and designs for said weapons and ships, blow stuff up, infiltrate enemy forces, and probably get involved in a firefight or two, after blowing stuff up. Ship to ship combat is probably also going to be a feature. It will involve missiles." As for fantasy, you've got your work cut out for you.

Triaxx
2008-09-03, 05:38 AM
Bringing gamers to D&D? Your work is already done. Introduce them to the Baldur's Gate series, then D&D. They'll never look back.

shadow_archmagi
2008-09-03, 05:44 AM
Bringing gamers to D&D? Your work is already done. Introduce them to the Baldur's Gate series, then D&D. They'll never look back.

No, start with Kotor, then Baldur's Gate.

Kaihaku
2008-09-03, 05:46 AM
they just play video games all day long (i think) and just don't accept the idea that you can play a game that is based in your head. what do i do.:smalleek:

Oh... I thought it was going to be about people who have "moved on" to Word of Darkness now.

Blackfang108
2008-09-03, 08:38 AM
I'm surprised.

I've always been an avid video gamer, and I'd wanted to get into D&D since middle school (mid to late 90's).

The problem was that I never had a group.

So, a few years ago, when I met a group of people playing Magic:TG, and one of them asked if I wanted to join in a campaign, I jumped at the chance.

Characters I now have:
3.x
Human 20Duskblade/2Fighter
Githyanki 8Paladin/Blackguard Gesthalt (Campaign on Hiatus while DM adjusts to being married)
Elven 5 Duskblade (defunct campaign)
Silvanesti 8 Noble/3 Bard (Defunct) Pellarin Kaldiest of House Mason (Ostentatious enough?)
Two defunct Barbarians
One defunct Druid/Wight.
And...
I think the last one is a halfling Dual Wielding Ranger in the forgotten realms. no ranks in spot(actually unintentional.)

4.0
Elandrin Warlord/Feylock 3 (Mindarthis Silverburg, Tactician of the Eastern Elandrin Empire) (I do this with Elven names. I'm trying to find the upper limit to what my friends will accept.)
Tiefling Starlock (Forthcoming)

I guess you can say experience is key?

Waspinator
2008-09-03, 08:52 AM
Amusingly, I've got some friends I've been getting into PnP roleplaying via Star Wars Saga Edition. They've played the KOTOR games, so they're familiar with the idea of d20, so that helped. And the point of "unlike video games, you can do things not imagined by the game developers". For example, in the first game with that group, the party was on speeder bikes at one point running from some battle droids. One of them kept rolling 1s and 2s for some reason and could not keep up. So, one of the luckier party members doubled pack and the first guy jumped over on to his bike. In a video game, that would have likely been impossible because it would probably not be anticipated. In this kind of game, however, I just had him roll an Acrobatics check and since he got like a 17 or something I said he managed to pull it off. His old bike, howover, kept going and hit a wall in a dramatic explosion. Since you know, it's Star Wars. Drama is part of the game.

Anyway, if they're Star Wars fans, definitely think about Saga Edition. It's a pretty fun game and the fact that they'd already know a lot about the setting helps make things easier for new gamers.

Drascin
2008-09-03, 09:22 AM
Yeah, I was in the same boat, made a group with these kinds of people, and two of them are now every bit as avid gamers as I am, while the other two are still sporadic players.

First point, find out the kind of games they like. If they happen to be Final Fantasy freaks, for example, a lot of your work is already done - I can say from experience that bridging people from JRPGs to proper tabletop RPGs is easy. If, on the other hand, they are more of shooter fans, it will be a slight bit harder, but it can be done with the right system. If you could inform us of this, we should be able to help you better.

This also makes it very different how you should manage the system. CRPG addicts are generally very comfortable with stats and rolls and levels, so they should be able to get most of the system in a few sessions. Most action gamers, on the other hand, will care little for those things and will prefer to get with the roleplaying or head-bashing, so be prepared to run most of the calculations yourself at first.

Second point, type of campaign. As a videogamer myself, allow me to say, most videogamers like to have powered campaigns where the fate of many rests on their hands. Do not start them killing rats at D&D level 1, or brawling with nobodies at Mos Eisley. Most gamers have a craving for "cool" stuff, so find out what they find cool and go for it. Game balance or believability is secondary for the first campaign. Have them fight on top of a Lyrandar airship while drakehawks hostigate the deck, let them finish off giant mechs with a Colossus Climb God of War style... whatever. The point is, when you plan the events of the day, think "if I were to put this into a video animation, would it look really awesome?"

And third, have a plot, but let them deviate from it. Your best bet to get them hooked is the nonlinear task resolution inherent in tabletop - make sure to emphasize it. But, tempting as it may seem, don't just leave them in a completely open sandbox unless they want to, because most new gamers (videogamers and not) have very big problems adapting to objective-less campaigns at first. And yes, I speak from experience here as well.

Again, I could give some more specialized advice if you just tell me what kind of games they like, but I think those apply for a relevant enough percentage to be considered somewhat general :smallbiggrin:

Hzurr
2008-09-03, 10:52 AM
Let me go ahead and echo what Mark Hall, Waspinator, and Drascin said. I remember the first couple of times I played d&d is because I had some friends who did it, but the entire time I was thinking "This is going to be dumb, this is going to be uber-nerdy, I'll do it a couple of times, then politely decline." The reason I stuck around is because I realized that it had all the things I liked about video-game RPGs, but removed all of the things I found frustrating.

To echo Mark: How many times have you been stuck in a dialog tree, where you know what you need to say, but it doesn't give you the option of saying that. Or those situations where it forces you into combat, when in theory you could have talked your way out of it (Or vice-versa)? The sheer freedom of PnP RPGs is what made me stick around instead of only playing video games.

Waspinator mentioned SWSE (Star Wars Saga Edition). If your friends enjoyed either of the KotoR games, pick up a copy of the Saga Edition rules and the KotoR campaign setting that was just released, and let them make characters in that universe (heck, even let them interact with characters from the game. If they run into Hk-47 and get to talk to him and hear him call them "meatbag," they'll be hooked). If they're excited about the new Force Unleashed game that's going to come out, let them play a game that takes place in between episodes 3 & 4 where they're trying to help jedi that are being hunted down. Heck, let them play as imperials, and their job is to kill jedi and rebels.

Again, the point I'd stress is the sheer freedom they have. No more linear paths, no more forced dialog trees. If your character wants to hit someone with a sword, go for it. If he wants to run up, slice the legs out from the table that the villain is standing on, go for it. If you want to betray your employer, and cut a deal with the villain, go for it.

AkazilliaDeNaro
2008-09-03, 03:23 PM
Hk-47, KotoR games, CRPG, JRPGs, Star Wars Saga Edition, Shadowrun, Risus, Minimus, RPG version of HALO I do not know of which you speak.:smallconfused:

My little brother got into it when he was 15. Our DM just helped him make a character and just threw him into the game and explained the rules as we went. Mind you, he was totally into absurd role play that the freedom of D&D provides (his half-orc barbarian called himself a dentist, but had no skills in anything like it, he would just go up to a wounded foes and start pulling out their teeth with a hammer and his bare hands). My biggest suggestion is to highlight how fun that freedom can be, and there are "endless possibilities".

TOTALLY AWSOME!!!!!!

one is addicted to his XBOX 360 and the other to his Nintendo systems.

valadil
2008-09-03, 03:30 PM
For me what puts D&D above computer RPGs, and even over video games entirely, is that it's whatever your imagination lets it be, not the imagination and programming limitations of the team who coded it.

I hate being limited to 4 or 5 verbal responses in conversations. Having a character who can really be himself and say what he wants to say is infinitely more interesting than being stuck with multiple choice roleplaying.

Vazzaroth
2008-09-03, 03:49 PM
one is addicted to his XBOX 360 and the other to his Nintendo systems.

Well there's your problem. PS3 is the RPG system. (OR PC...)
Unless they love Lost Odessy or something.

BlueWizard
2008-09-03, 04:45 PM
Try running a PbP games here.
All my old table-top gamers are far away.

Drascin
2008-09-03, 05:12 PM
Hk-47, KotoR games, CRPG, JRPGs, Star Wars Saga Edition, Shadowrun, Risus, Minimus, RPG version of HALO I do not know of which you speak.:smallconfused:

KotOR is Knights of the Old Republic, a series of great RPGs for PC, both based on the same d20 system D&D is. If they had played those, getting them into tabletop wouldn't even require teaching them the mechanics. And HK-47 is an evil NPC in those games - a sadistic assassin droid that calls all humans "meatbags".

CRPG means Computer Roleplaying Game, and JRPG Japanese Roleplaying Game.

Star Wars Saga Edition, Shadowrun, Risus, Minimus, and even the Halo RPG are tabletop RPG systems. Like D&D, but with another genres, another settings, another stat systems, and such. Once you know what kind of game you want to run, you should try to inform yourself as to what is the best choice for that particular genre and mood. We will probably be able to help there too - there's a lot of knowledgeable people in here.

In the meantime, hang around and read a lot. If you intend to DM for them, you're the one supposed to know the most about how a tabletop works - you'll be teaching them, after all.



one is addicted to his XBOX 360 and the other to his Nintendo systems.

I mostly meant "what games do they like?" ^^u. I was trying to ascertain what kind of setting and mood they preferred - it's not a good idea to do medieval fantasy when your players want do soft SciFi, or an epic war campaign if they prefer to play corporate assassins

Triaxx
2008-09-03, 05:21 PM
Baldur's Gate is a much better intro to D&D than Kotor.

Especially if you can get all of them playing one game. Bring everyone together to learn together. Works wonders.