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Vazzaroth
2008-09-02, 06:40 PM
Ask him if you can make a weapon do 1d1. Don't let him say "Just 1 damage?", because it's not. It has to be a 1 sided Die. See: Mobius Strip (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mobius_strip) and Sphere.

Make a Chaotic Crusader. Wait until you can have a 6th level stance, Take Aura of Chaos, run up to the strongest most unbeatable monster ever made... and one shot it.

Aura of Chaos allows a reroll whenever max damage shows up on a die. On a d1... thats infinite damage.

Don't bother posting the fact that this is exploiting a nonexistant die, I am fully aware of this. But it's a great way to turn a joke with your DM into a game breaking device.
Lets see how long he allows you to keep your Rusty, Small 1d1 dagger.

monty
2008-09-02, 06:42 PM
You can already do this with a 1d2 weapon, which actually exists. And this wouldn't convince me ToB is broken any more than Pun-Pun convinces me kobolds are broken.

Tormsskull
2008-09-02, 06:42 PM
If I am not mistaken, there are already players who tout this as the latest and greatest gamebreaking device using a 1d2 weapon.

Flickerdart
2008-09-02, 06:44 PM
Why would you want to make your DM ban the only way melee characters can be useful? That's just mean, dude.

fractic
2008-09-02, 06:45 PM
So you're just asking people to do the infinite damage crusader trick using a mobius strip? I personally prefer just using a superball with a big one written on it. If anyone wants to use it, I just throw it at them.

Real men use Klein-bottles without self-intersection.

AstralFire
2008-09-02, 06:45 PM
This thread wins the vaunted "...Uh..." award of the week.

I present you with the much storied ellipsis, or "..." as a trophy.

Vazzaroth
2008-09-02, 06:47 PM
I fail to see how a 1d2 is infinite. Its just probable.

monty
2008-09-02, 06:49 PM
There's another ability that lets you reroll all 1's.

Remember, there is no such thing as a 1d1 weapon (it's just "1"). 1d2 exists already.

Siosilvar
2008-09-02, 06:49 PM
I fail to see how a 1d2 is infinite. Its just probable.

They use something that allows a natural 1 to become either max damage or a reroll, can't remember which.

EDIT: Ninja'd

Zocelot
2008-09-02, 06:49 PM
I am not familiar with ToB, but I know that there is something that lets you reroll 1s.

NEO|Phyte
2008-09-02, 06:49 PM
I fail to see how a 1d2 is infinite. Its just probable.

It's combined with a thingy from Complete Champion that lets you treat ones as twos on all rolls.

tyckspoon
2008-09-02, 06:50 PM
I fail to see how a 1d2 is infinite. Its just probable.

Takes an extra effect, of course. Imbued Healing: Luck- after you've been affected by a healing spell, any 1s you roll are treated as if you had rolled a 2.

Starsinger
2008-09-02, 06:55 PM
Try this on your Pro-Core DM

Ask him if you can make a wizard do 0 damage. Don't let him say "You won't kill things?", because you will. It has to be a Wizard. See: TLN's Wizard guide

Make a Wizard. Wait until you can have a 2nd level spell, Take Glitter dust, Stand as far as 130 feet away from run up to the strongest most unbeatable monster ever made... and take it out.

Glitter dust blinds a creature.

Don't bother posting the fact that this is assuming a failed will save, I am fully aware of this. But it's a great way to turn a stupid joke on its head.
Lets see how long he lets you keep your 0 damage, 3d4 HP wizard.

Siosilvar
2008-09-02, 07:07 PM
Lets see how long he lets you keep your 0 damage, 1d4 HP wizard.

You'd have 2d4+4 HP if you have a 2nd level slot. And if you have a 2nd level spell at 1st level, you can't be using just core.

Vazzaroth
2008-09-02, 07:10 PM
Yes I should have known. This is a game forum afterall. Tabletop, but still.

streakster
2008-09-02, 07:16 PM
Try this on your pro-dice DM!

Ask him if you can use dice. Don't let him say "Uh, duh" because this is awesome. See: Die? Dice?

Make a character. Now, run up to the strongest most unbeatable monster ever made... and one shot it.

See, a "marker" allows you to change every face of the die into a 20. No matter what, you roll a natural 20!

Don't bother posting that this is cheating, I am fully aware of this. But it's a great way to turn a die into a game-breaking device. Let's see how long he allows you to keep using dice.

SurlySeraph
2008-09-02, 07:26 PM
Try this on your pro-miniature DM.

When he puts out the miniature for whatever you're fighting - anything, from an orc to a tarrasque - there's an easy way to beat it.

Hit the miniature with a hammer.

See, a hammer lets you break a miniature, thus destroying the enemy without your character even needing to take an action.

Don't bother posting that this is simultaneously cheating and metagaming, I am fully aware of this. But it's a great way to turn a joke with your DM into a game breaking device.

Lets see how long he allows you to keep your hammer.

fractic
2008-09-02, 07:28 PM
Lets see how long he allows you to keep your hammer.

Not very long I'd say. The DM is probably going to want that hammer to smash some other things :smallwink:

Vazzaroth
2008-09-02, 07:29 PM
Try this on the guy who's never heard of anyone else talking about Aura of Chaos!

Assume he's a troll, Don't ask him to Copy-paste what he said, Don't let him say "I thought I left 4chan ages ago", because he's obviously a newfag!

Make a post. Now, also assume he's trying to say ToB is overpowered by trying to make a somewhat comical post about something him and his friends talked about one day... and use bold!

See, the anonymity of the internet means your immune to feelings!

Don't bother posting that this is flaming, I am fully aware of this. But it's a great way jump down someone's throat for no reason. Let's see how long he keeps posting in d20 and General RPG!

:smallamused:


I like the hammer one though :smallbiggrin:

Edea
2008-09-02, 07:29 PM
Whee, let's use White Raven Tactics and Ruby Knight Vindicators to gain a sheetload of free turns! Ha, ha, ha, get it? 'Turns?' :smallannoyed:...note that I believe RKVs always rebuke, since they have to worship Wee Jas (dumb rules specifics, ruining my already awful sense of humor), but seriously, come on; -Core- has some terrible balance issues right out of the box, and many of the most broken things in 3.5e come from there (Candle of Invocation, anyone?). Let's not begrudge ToB for also having a couple of stinkers in an otherwise highly inspiring supplement.

As for the hammer parody, I think the DM's just going to go get a hammer of his own...and when he comes back to use it, he won't be hitting miniatures, that's for damn sure.

Tormsskull
2008-09-02, 07:30 PM
Poor guy. He thought he had discovered a super secret path to ultimate power and all he got were several quick kicks to the rear.

You have my sympathy dude.

Glimbur
2008-09-02, 07:30 PM
You'd have 2d4+4 HP if you have a 2nd level slot. And if you have a 2nd level spell at 1st level, you can't be using just core.

I don't know what kind of wizards you run, but where I come from wizards get second level spells at third character level as God intended.

Edea
2008-09-02, 07:32 PM
Poor guy. He thought he had discovered a super secret path to ultimate power and all he got were several quick kicks to the rear.

You have my sympathy dude.

Wha...? I thought he was ****ing around. :smallfrown:.

monty
2008-09-02, 07:33 PM
The flaming really was a bit too much, but at least it didn't happen until post 13.

Also, as I said before, this doesn't make me think at all that ToB is overpowered. People will always find ways to break mechanics unless you can somehow make them (the mechanics that is, not the people) perfect.

monty
2008-09-02, 07:34 PM
I don't know what kind of wizards you run, but where I come from wizards get second level spells at third character level as God intended.

Yeah, 4 hp at first level plus 2d4 for second and third. Makes sense to me, although I don't know why you're playing a wizard with 10/11 Con.

SurlySeraph
2008-09-02, 07:34 PM
Assume he's a troll, Don't ask him to Copy-paste what he said, Don't let him say "I thought I left 4chan ages ago", because he's obviously a newfag!

Well, I've never been on 4chan, but I did just read a copy-paste of the "Katanas are underpowered in d20" thread yesterday, and when I read this it kinda inspired me.

It's easy to not know about optimization ideas that are well-known to others, though. I've been unsuccessfully trying to figure out exactly what a "Joker Monk" is for the past two weeks, and I hadn't heard of the King of Smack until I proposed a build that was a lot like it in a discussion.

fractic
2008-09-02, 07:36 PM
It's easy to not know about optimization ideas that are well-known to others, though. I've been unsuccessfully trying to figure out exactly what a "Joker Monk" is for the past two weeks

The Joker monk is a monk build proposed by sir Giacomo. Here's a link. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=80704)

Jack_Simth
2008-09-02, 07:39 PM
I don't know what kind of wizards you run, but where I come from wizards get second level spells at third character level as God intended.

Max HP for first level. So that 3rd level wizard gets 4 (max first on a d4) +2d4 hit points (plus 3*con mod, but we appear to be ignoring that altogether - con 10 or 11 wizard, maybe?)

Vazzaroth
2008-09-02, 07:39 PM
ToB is my favorite supplement ever released. I just noticed one day that if you had some kind of conceptual 1d1 weapon, you could kill anything, I mentioned it to my friend, and he calls it a Turkey Carver.

I never REALLY ment for anyone to try it, just pointing something out I thought was funny, but, as I should have known because this is one of the laws of the internet, everyone already knew about it.

That rerolling 1's thing is something I'll have to suggest to my friend who legitimately made a character with a bunch of 1d2s and Aura of Chaos to try to piss off a newbie DM running an Epic Level game.

fractic
2008-09-02, 07:41 PM
ToB is my favorite supplement ever released. I just noticed one day that if you had some kind of conceptual 1d1 weapon, you could kill anything, I mentioned it to my friend, and he calls it a Turkey Carver.

I never REALLY ment for anyone to try it, just pointing something out I thought was funny, but, as I should have known because this is one of the laws of the internet, everyone already knew about it.

That rerolling 1's thing is something I'll have to suggest to my friend who legitimately made a character with a bunch of 1d2s and Aura of Chaos to try to piss off a newbie DM running an Epic Level game.

Don't take all the replies too hard. They're just poking a little fun at you. Instead be proud that you discovered the trick yourself. Most guys here just heard about it.

AstralFire
2008-09-02, 07:42 PM
Dude wasn't calling ToB overpowered. I just ellipsised because that is probably the most apt response to this thread.

...

streakster
2008-09-02, 07:52 PM
Don't take all the replies too hard. They're just poking a little fun at you. Instead be proud that you discovered the trick yourself. Most guys here just heard about it.

What he says. Not making fun, just tryin' to be funny. And losing badly to Surly Seraph.

Hammer. Heh.

AstralFire
2008-09-02, 07:55 PM
What he says. Not making fun, just tryin' to be funny. And losing badly to Surly Seraph.

Hammer. Heh.

Hammers are funny. Case in Point: MC Hammer.

Tormsskull
2008-09-02, 07:58 PM
Hammers are funny. Case in Point: MC Hammer.

I would try to be funny, but You Can't Touch This.

Vazzaroth
2008-09-02, 08:10 PM
http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f305/renewandrebuild/Funny%20Pics/HaltHammerzeit.jpg

Chronos
2008-09-02, 08:14 PM
That rerolling 1's thing is something I'll have to suggest to my friend who legitimately made a character with a bunch of 1d2s and Aura of Chaos to try to piss off a newbie DM running an Epic Level game.Please note: Aura of Chaos does not let you reroll all of your damage, only those particular dice which come up maxed. So if, for instance, you're dealing 8d2, and make these rolls (pardon me while I flip a coin a bit):
2
2
2
1
1
2
2
1
You'd re-roll five of those, for
2
2
2
1
2
Then re-roll four more, and so on.

The benefit of Aura of Chaos is greatest for smaller dice, but even with a d2, the aura only doubles your damage, on average. For the much more common d6, it only increases your damage by a factor of 6/5. Now, of course, if you're lucky, there's no limit on the amount of damage you can get, but you probably won't be that lucky.

ericgrau
2008-09-02, 08:16 PM
Wha...? I thought he was ****ing around. :smallfrown:.

Me too. LOL please don't take this thread seriously pplz. I see great amusement potential, much of which has already been posted.

Vazzaroth
2008-09-02, 08:19 PM
And that, Chronos, is the whole point of my post about getting a 1d1.

My friend in the epic game ran by the newbie DM was a Paragon... Imp I think, dual wielding with small spiked chain doing like 2d4, and like, 10 attacks a turn.

Edea
2008-09-02, 09:23 PM
I'm pretty sure there was some item/feat/spell that let you reroll 1s on rolls for a length of time (including damage rolls), but for the life of me I can't find it. Was it Imbued-something? Anyway, that's used in conjunction with AoC to get the limitless damage. Been awhile since I saw it.

Eldariel
2008-09-02, 09:38 PM
-Eld hotline, what can I do for you?
-Not yet again that damn Aura of Chaos, I already explained it today once!
-Ok folks, listen, here's how it works:
1. Have a character with Aura of Chaos active.
2. Have a caster with a healing-spell Metamagicked with Imbued Healing (Complete Champion): Luck.
3. Cast the healing spell on the character with Aura of Chaos active. Now he treats all 1s on his rolls as 2s.
4. Attack with a 1d2 weapon. Hit. Reroll all 2s. Get 2 for every 1 you roll. Profit ad nauseum.
5. Cut when you feel enough damage has been dealt. The ability uses the word "may reroll".

-The simpliest issue:
*Imbued Healing: Luck just determines that 1s are treated as 2s. You didn't actually roll the 2. Aura of Chaos specifically talks about rolling the maximum damage. Therefore, by RAW, this is questionable at best and just undoable at worst. Still, there you go. 1d1 would work if it existed. Since no rolling is involved with weapons dealing 1 damage (as the damage is 1 instead of 1d1), this again doesn't work.

Other than that, go to town.

Bassetking
2008-09-02, 09:56 PM
ToB is my favorite supplement ever released. I just noticed one day that if you had some kind of conceptual 1d1 weapon, you could kill anything, I mentioned it to my friend, and he calls it a Turkey Carver.

I never REALLY ment for anyone to try it, just pointing something out I thought was funny, but, as I should have known because this is one of the laws of the internet, everyone already knew about it.

That rerolling 1's thing is something I'll have to suggest to my friend who legitimately made a character with a bunch of 1d2s and Aura of Chaos to try to piss off a newbie DM running an Epic Level game.

Hiya! Welcome to the forum. Get comfy, get yourself some nachos, and pull up a chair. Try to avoid the monk threads, and hang out a while!

I'm Bassetking, creator of the 1d2 Crusader. In my original offering, over at the WotC theoretical optimization boards, I made the same initial thought that you had, in your post. "1d1 = infinite! Brilliant!" Issue becomes, good friend, there are no 1d1 weapons, in any WotC book. Not a single one in any WotC sanctioned tome, core or splat.

The introduction of "Complete Champion" with the feat "Imbued Healing[Luck]" Allows the crusader to treat all rolled "1's" as "2's". Now, with any 1d2 weapon, you can create a countable infinite damage loop that is terminable at will.

Now, the tricksey-bit... The sneaky, tricksey bit of this build is... You still have to hit.

This is why I reccomend the build make use of one level of cleric, to obtain the Imbued Healing[luck] feat, and Martial Study, to pick up Emerald Razor, so as to resolve melee attacks as melee touch attacks.

You've got a good head on your shoulders, man; keep at it.

MisterSaturnine
2008-09-02, 10:31 PM
http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f305/renewandrebuild/Funny%20Pics/HaltHammerzeit.jpg

You're my hero. Just for posting this.

Vazzaroth
2008-09-03, 12:59 AM
Yeaaaa, see the thing is the beauty of it getting the DM to accept a seemingly harmless idea, only to have it turn on him later.

TBH Im not really worried about the flames anymore... and the initial post was all I really had to say, and I just made that cause I was exceedingly bored at work.

And Hammerzeit... is the ONLY acceptable Zeit.

Rockphed
2008-09-03, 01:36 AM
And Hammerzeit... is the ONLY acceptable Zeit.

So, seen any girls lately? (http://xkcd.com/108/)

SparkMandriller
2008-09-03, 02:06 AM
TBH Im not really worried about the flames anymore... and the initial post was all I really had to say, and I just made that cause I was exceedingly bored at work.

Not finding your idea funny/worthwhile isn't really flaming you, dude. No need to go looking for insults.

Dairun Cates
2008-09-03, 02:12 AM
It's combined with a thingy from Complete Champion that lets you treat ones as twos on all rolls.

Consequently, this wouldn't actually effect exploding dice. It's only treated as a 2. You didn't actually roll max damage. The ability I believe specifically says rolled max damage. If there actually is an ability that let's you re-roll 1's though, then yeah. You're gold.

Bassetking
2008-09-03, 09:39 AM
Consequently, this wouldn't actually effect exploding dice. It's only treated as a 2. You didn't actually roll max damage. The ability I believe specifically says rolled max damage. If there actually is an ability that let's you re-roll 1's though, then yeah. You're gold.

"Treated as if you rolled a 2" not "Treated as a 2".

Eldariel
2008-09-03, 09:46 AM
Actually, the wording is:
"treat any die roll result of 1 as a 2"

So you only treat 1s as 2s, not as if you rolled a 2. The wording for the latter would be "treat any die roll result of 1 as if you had rolled a 2". Since that's the more complex wording, they opted for the simplier, which generates a semantic difference that becomes relevant with Aura of Chaos.

mangosta71
2008-09-03, 10:10 AM
Is it "re-roll a result of 1" or "roll again and add the result to your total if you roll the maximum die result"? Because infinitely re-rolling a d1 would mean that damage is never applied...

Tormsskull
2008-09-03, 10:12 AM
Is it "re-roll a result of 1" or "roll again and add the result to your total if you roll the maximum die result"? Because infinitely re-rolling a d1 would mean that damage is never applied...

I was wondering the same thing but I figured there was no way so many people missed something that important.

Tokiko Mima
2008-09-03, 11:12 AM
Try this on the guy who's never heard of anyone else talking about Aura of Chaos!

Assume he's a troll, Don't ask him to Copy-paste what he said, Don't let him say "I thought I left 4chan ages ago", because he's obviously a newfag!

Make a post. Now, also assume he's trying to say ToB is overpowered by trying to make a somewhat comical post about something him and his friends talked about one day... and use bold!

See, the anonymity of the internet means your immune to feelings!

Don't bother posting that this is flaming, I am fully aware of this. But it's a great way jump down someone's throat for no reason. Let's see how long he keeps posting in d20 and General RPG!

:smallamused:


I like the hammer one though :smallbiggrin:


Don't take things too badly. You found a trick, and it is a cool trick, only it's something that someone else thought of back when ToB was newly released. There's a lot of other tricks in D&D like using Manipulate Form to make your character all powerful at level 1, Charging for millions of HP damage and others. A good source is right here: http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=482636

Message boards are like hive minds. While I personally might not know the ins and outs of playing a crusader, someone else on the board will remember and probably even be an expert in the subject. So when you post a trick here there's almost certainly someone who knows a ton about Crusaders and will have thought of that trick first. It doesn't help that there was a thread a few days ago about that very same Crusader infinite damage loop trick so everyone who reads here regularly had it fresh on their minds. So when you present it to the board like it's brand new (which it is to you!) the response is inevitably 'Umm.. that's not a new thing.'

Chronos
2008-09-03, 11:50 AM
The other thing about the message board hivemind is that, as soon as anyone thinks of a trick, everyone knows about it. So even though each of us individually generally only independantly comes up with one or two of these clever tricks, we each end up knowing dozens of them.

Superglucose
2008-09-03, 12:04 PM
That rerolling 1's thing is something I'll have to suggest to my friend who legitimately made a character with a bunch of 1d2s and Aura of Chaos to try to piss off a newbie DM running an Epic Level game.

o.O And you SUPPORT this course of action?

Note that I officially stamp all flames in this thread with my official seal-o-approval.

Vazzaroth
2008-09-03, 12:21 PM
Superglucose: You need to know this DM. He has it coming. He threw 5th level PCs against an Adult dragon and thought it was fair.

And the trick isn't so much new to me, as it's just that I han't posted it since I thought about it a couple months ago. Like I said, I looked real quick, didn't see a thread about it, posted 'cause I was ridiculously bored at work.

I wish I could delete threads.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-09-03, 12:33 PM
Superglucose: You need to know this DM. He has it coming. He threw 5th level PCs against an Adult dragon and thought it was fair.If it was a White Dragon, it almost is. 'Boss' monsters are supposed to be 4 or so above the party's ECL. Now, if it was red, that's a different story. Also, the DMs style has an impact. One of mine stuck our 4th level party facing a 7th level Necromancer, 8 Skeletons, and 4 Bugbear Zombies. It was fair because the Necro was a cowardly idiot who surrendered when he hit 4HP, we're fairly tactically good, and our party makeup was built for this sort of thing. It would have been a TPK if they'd been smart, but we were able to pull through, and it was awesome.

Vazzaroth
2008-09-03, 12:44 PM
I believe it was Red or Green. I think it was a Mature Adult too. And the DM has TPK'ed a number of times, he lets them restart... :smalleek: