Redcloak vs. Xykon

[Linkavitch]

What if Xykon is about to defeat the OotS at the very end of this story mega-arc, and then Redcloak turns on him, realizing that in the since he started his servitude to Xykon, more goblins have been killed then the subsequent 100 years or so by adventurers, and killing Xykon and exterminating all the evil overlords will help his cause even more? Your thoughts, please, and sorry if this idea has already been posted.

[MReav]

What would happen is that :xykon: planned for this. :mitd: eats :redcloak:

Read SoD. Redcloak is Ske-rewed if he moves against Xykon.

[Emanick]

:mitd: : Promise? What promise?
He forgot all about it. :smallbiggrin:

[Kish]

It wasn't a promise, it was a Suggestion spell. The creature in the dark can't not do it just because he forgot it. So I see it going more like this:

CREATURE: What happened to Xykon?
REDCLOAK: He went on vacation, okay?
CREATURE: Oh, okay. Why'd you break the necklace?
REDCLOAK: I was sick of wearing it.
CREATURE: Okay.

[David Argall]

Why is there this persistent idea of Redcloak turning on Xykon? It simply violates everything we know about Redcloak. He is the absolute loyal servant of Xykon, until a gate is captured, or none remain to be captured. In either case, it no longer matters if he turns or not.

I suppose the "reasoning" is something like "I sympathize with Redcloak and therefore hope he will turn to the side of virtue. Therefore he will."

[Inhuman Bot]

Well, it could be I wonder who would in in a battle of powerfull charcters, like Alustriel vs. Manshoon, or something.

Also, Redcloak would never turn as it would mean he killed right-eye for nothing

[AceOfFools]

The climax of Start of Darkness firmly establishes that Redclaok won't turn on Xykon
because he's too chicken-**** to admit that he's at least partly responsible for the needless deaths of a considerable number of Goblins.

SoD also establishes when and how Redcloak will betray Xykon, among other things.

[Lamech]

If redcloak preps for it he will probably get one of those fancy turn boosting items, and a desacrate, and rebuke away. Of course, as we know from the SoD...
Redcloak already is betraying Xykon with this whole gate scheme, after the rituals are completed, the Dark One will rule the multi-verse. I'm betting either the dead goblins or Xykon's anger at Redcloak will get him some (un)holy judgement.

[Chronos]

The reasons everyone keeps saying that Redcloak won't betray Xykon are exactly the reasons he probably will. There's only so far you can bend someone before they snap, and Xykon's taking Redcloak perilously close to that point.

As for Xykon's insurance plan from SoD,
Notice how the Monster's eyes go swirly for one panel, but then immediately return to normal? Every other time we've seen someone's eyes go swirlied, they've stayed swirlied for the entire duration of the enchantment. I suspect that Monster-san's extreme naïvety and forgetfulness give him an ability similar to a rogue's Slippery Mind, and that he's therefore no longer under the influence of whatever spell that was.

[Ghastly Epigram]

As for Xykon's insurance plan from SoD,
Notice how the Monster's eyes go swirly for one panel, but then immediately return to normal? Every other time we've seen someone's eyes go swirlied, they've stayed swirlied for the entire duration of the enchantment. I suspect that Monster-san's extreme naïvety and forgetfulness give him an ability similar to a rogue's Slippery Mind, and that he's therefore no longer under the influence of whatever spell that was.

But why show it at all then if he is just going to use a cop out like that? I do not know if it is an actual spell or something made up or whatever, but I suspect it has just embedded itself into Monster-san's subconscious, and will arise if and when Redcloak betrays Xykon.

[David Argall]

The reasons everyone keeps saying that Redcloak won't betray Xykon are exactly the reasons he probably will. There's only so far you can bend someone before they snap, and Xykon's taking Redcloak perilously close to that point.

Where is the evidence that Xykon is pushing him nearly as far as he has pushed him in the past? Much less that he is pushing him harder? And what is the evidence he is anywhere close to a breaking point?

On the face of it, Xykon is currently being a relatively minor pest to Redcloak. Nor does there seem to be grounds for him getting much worse. Redcloak Needs Xykon for the Plan to work and so he is going to put up with a lot worse than he is currently suffering.

[Charles Phipps]

To be perfectly honest, I think that Redcloak's scheme is so perfectly transparent that Xykon has probably actually already seen through it. Redcloak is clinging to the idea that the Dark One will finish off Xykon in the end but isn't it more likely that he already KNOWS and has compensated?

That would be a crowning moment of awesome even more important than Right Eye.

Redcloak realizing that he really ALWAYS HAS BEEN, Xyk's ****.

[factotum]

I don't think Xykon has come close to pushing Redcloak harder than he did at the end of SoD--if Redcloak didn't turn then, there's precious little chance he'll do it now. Something MAJOR would have to happen for him to turn on Xykon.

[ericgrau]

Meh, Xykon would win and frankly Redcloak is too wussy to try anyway. I may be one of the few who liked Redcloak less after reading SoD. I mean it was great character development that made him more interesting but I actually find his actions less noble and less justifiable after that. Even bordering on immature. He tries and gets better, though, especially in Azure City. It'll still take a bit more before he even tries to go against Xykon, though, let alone succeeds.

[Lissou]

I think Redcloak won't "turn on Xykon and kill him". That wouldn't be interesting. But him just staying exactly as he used to be wouldn't be interesting either.
He's started to change already, when he realised he'd been turning into Xykon. I don't know what will happen but I think it will be something quite interesting.

Redcloak is my favourite character, but I wouldn't be that happy by a "Redcloak suddenly changes his mind and becomes someone completely different" turnabout. I don't know what to expect, but that's good, because I want something unexpectable.

And what Redcloak did so far won't have been for nothing if it leads him to finding someone to replace Xykon, for instance. But I doubt he'd find such a person, as it's the story of the Order of the Srick, not the story of Redcloak.

My only hope right now is that Redcloak
doesn't get eaten by the snarl. Therefore, instead of just disappearing he'd die and go to the afterlife where he's see his family again. Or not, I'm not sure how the alignment thing works, but you can probably visit or something.
This way, Redcloak could see his mom again (sniff), but also face his brother, and with that all the choices he's made thus far. I doubt that will ever be shown, but I think I'd like for it to happen.
Redcloak killed by the snarl would be definite, and in a way that could make some sense too, and he's stated several time that he's ready for that to happen. But that would also mean never having to face his own choices and his own past, and dying as a martyr. And that, I don't like that much as a story.

But most of all, my biggest hope is that the goblin race does end up getting it better in the end. Be it only hinted at or shown for real. No matter what happens to Redcloak, it will be a victory for him if the goblins get a better deal. Even if he didn't help at all. Even if it's thanks to humans, or if someone else did the job (his niece, for instance).

Oh, and something else I wouldn't like is if he removed his cloak and gained all the years he should have had, and died of old age. That has been done to death, plus we've seen him without the cloak in the strip, and it didn't happen, so that would be quite stupid.

Oh, and I'd like for him to get a hug. The guy seriously needs one.

Oh, and also... Xykon would win against Redcloak in a one-to-one fight of strenght. Redcloak would win if he tricked Xykon.
So far, they're happy using each other, without trusting each other. I don't see that staying the same way forever though. Look, their short-term goals are starting to differ already.

[Texas Jedi]

I also don't believe that Redcloak will betray Xykon.

Redcloak couldn't even let his brother Right-Eye kill Xykon. Heck he even brought his brother back as a zombie because Xykon told him to.

As Xykon said Redcloak is evil with a little e. The only way he will be Evil with a capital E is if he stops making excuses about killing hundreds of goblins. He has to realize that his actions and inactions have hurt his people. If and when that epiphany happens we could see Redcloak betray Xykon.

If there ever was a fight between them Redcloak would go down faster than the Titanic. Xykon has always had a plan in case Red grows a pair and betrays him. Xykon is ready for anything Red could throw against him.

I say that with what is known in the comic right now. If an item or a character that Xykon doesn't know about is introduced to Red then that may change.

[Chronos]

Xykon has always had a plan in case Red grows a pair and betrays him. Xykon is ready for anything Red could throw against him.And Redcloak has always had a plan in case he has to fight Xykon. The difference is that, even with the difference in their levels, Redcloak's plans are much more likely to work. Xykon, as a sorcerer, has a very limited bag of tricks available to him, and Redcloak already knows what most or all of them are. But Redcloak has the entire cleric spell list available to him, and furthermore, several of those spells are particularly well-suited to dealing with Xykon. A couple of castings of Resist Elements and Death Ward would protect him against almost everything Xykon could throw at him, but Xykon does not have any corresponding protections against, say, Disintegrate or Heal.

[Lissou]

Oh, and don't forget Tsukiko. I think there is a reason Rich introduced a Mystic Theurge: she could replace either of them. She's closer to Xykon now, so maybe X is going to start thinking he doesn't need R that much anymore. That would stir things. Of course, R is the Bearer, but, that's easy to change, really.

So yeah, I think Tsukiko was introduced for a good reason. She's a human, that Red despises. She's also both an Arcan and a Divine caster. She doesn't seem to really be aware of what's going on right now, but if she ever is, she could really play a part somewhere.

[Kwarkpudding]

Oh, and I'd like for him to get a hug. The guy seriously needs one



Well, that there inspired this quick doodle:

Smallish SoD spoilers:
http://i286.photobucket.com/albums/ll99/Kwarkpudding/RedcloakGetsHugged.png

One hug from his niece :smallsmile:

But a little less off-topic, I hope for some kind of a satisfactory end for Redcloak. Sure, redemption is almost impossible, but that doesn't stop me from hoping. :smallsmile:

[factotum]

A couple of castings of Resist Elements and Death Ward would protect him against almost everything Xykon could throw at him, but Xykon does not have any corresponding protections against, say, Disintegrate or Heal.

You mean, apart from the fact he's at least five levels higher than Redcloak and is an undead creature with d12 hit dice? One Heal won't cut it, and he likely won't get a chance to cast a second one--Resist Elements and Death Ward wouldn't protect Redcloak against that Symbol of Insanity Xykon used against the Sapphire Guard, just as one example.

[Lissou]

Well, that there inspired this quick doodle:

Smallish SoD spoilers:
http://i286.photobucket.com/albums/ll99/Kwarkpudding/RedcloakGetsHugged.png

One hug from his niece :smallsmile:

But a little less off-topic, I hope for some kind of a satisfactory end for Redcloak. Sure, redemption is almost impossible, but that doesn't stop me from hoping. :smallsmile:

Aww, that's adorable.

[RMS Oceanic]

If it comes to a sudden Heel Face Turn, and Redcloak acts on impulse, he's screwed. A level 15/16 Cleric cannot solo an Epic Lich Sorceror with (literally) more "BLOW IT ALL UP!" spells than sense on a spur of the moment. If Redcloak ever betrays Xykon, it will be thought through and planned.

I do suspect that Kwarkpudding's spoiler will be the catalyst for any betrayal, in conjunction with Redcloak's revived realisation that he's meant to be protecting Goblinkind and improving their lot as seen in #451.

[Chronos]

Resist Elements and Death Ward wouldn't protect Redcloak against that Symbol of Insanity Xykon used against the Sapphire Guard, just as one example.No, but his really high will save (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0456.html) will.

[Charles Phipps]

Best twist ever...

Xykon kills the Dark One and seizes his godhood thanks to Redcloak's actions.

[LuisDantas]

I agree with Chronos. I wish I had read Start of Darkness, but from various spoilerific bits gathered around it looks like Redcloak can't directly turn againt Xykon because it would be exceedingly dangerous for him, but he has many good reasons to do so once he devises some way of protecting himself.

Actually, I just can't see R NOT turning against Xykon. We know already from #548 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0548.html) that he neither trusts nor likes Xykon, and is already actively seeking ways of hindering him. Sod and even the regular series itself gave him no shortage of good reasons to seek revenge, even as they established that initially he had neither means nor courage to do so.

But that is changing swiftly; Redcloak is one of the characters who grew best in the series. I look forward to the inevitable moment when he will face Xykon decisively - and probably get utterly trounced as a result.

[Lissou]

Best twist ever...

Xykon kills the Dark One and seizes his godhood thanks to Redcloak's actions.

I don't think you become a God by killing a God... Or the Snarl is one now.
Look at how the Dark ONe became a God. That's not going to happen to Xykon anytime soon.

[Blue Ghost]

I'm quite certain that Redcloak will never become good. However, I do think that it is quite likely that sometime in the future, he will betray Xykon. Probably not soon, since right now he and Xykon share the same goal, but he probably will turn against Xykon when he gets the chance. He definitely has goals of his own and a higher loyalty, so it's unlikely that he will stick with Xykon to the end.
However, I don't think Redcloak's betrayal will lead to a direct confrontation. More likely, Redcloak simply deserts Xykon when the opportunity comes, perhaps returning to Azure City to rule over the hobgoblins and establish a goblinoid kingdom. Then he will become a worthy villain of his own right, instead of just Xykon's second-in-command.

[Lupy]

I love this thread... All fifty billion reincarnations of it. Heck, I even made one once.


I think that RC will turn on Xykon in the end after realizing that being a good little Cleric won't fix things, and the idea of RC tossing Roy the phalactery just as Xykon finishes him (RC) off is just too awesome.

[David Argall]

he has many good reasons to do so once he devises some way of protecting himself.
And just what are those reasons? And how do they begin to compare with SoD Redcloak is devoted to the Dark One's Plan. He has sacrificed any number of goblins to that goal, including his brother. And by all Redcloak knows, Xykon is vital to that plan. It simply can't be done without him. Attacking Xykon is simply abandoning a goal he has worked to achieve for over 30 years. It is something he won't do.


We know already from #548 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0548.html) that he neither trusts nor likes Xykon, and is already actively seeking ways of hindering him.
We can find just about the same thing for as long as the association has lasted. Back in 37, the first(?) time we saw Redcloak, he had the same attitude and was working to "hinder" Xykon. He was the same in SoD.


Sod and even the regular series itself gave him no shortage of good reasons to seek revenge,
Again, what are these reasons?



Redcloak's revived realisation that he's meant to be protecting Goblinkind and improving their lot as seen in #451.
Redcloak "realized" he was not supposed to be killing hobgoblins just because he didn't like them. This is simply a minor goal in his view. For his chief goal, he has sacrificed all sorts of goblins, and he has in no way renounced that goal.



the idea of RC tossing Roy the phalactery just as Xykon finishes him (RC) off is just too awesome.
It's unlikely, but at least possible. However, it pretty much requires that Xykon turn on Redcloak, not the other way around.

[LuisDantas]

We can find just about the same thing for as long as the association has lasted. Back in 37, the first(?) time we saw Redcloak, he had the same attitude and was working to "hinder" Xykon. He was the same in SoD.

037 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0037.html) didn't really showcase his resentment towards Xykon IMO, although logically it must have been in place already.

Maybe I'm mistaken, but it is my understanding that Redcloak has been tricked by Xykon into killing Redeye. Even if that is not the case, Xykon has been far less than respectful towards him.

As you note yourself, his loyalty (whatever it may be) is to the Dark One, not necessarily towards Xykon. Xykon is a regreattably needed means to an end.


Redcloak "realized" he was not supposed to be killing hobgoblins just because he didn't like them. This is simply a minor goal in his view. For his chief goal, he has sacrificed all sorts of goblins, and he has in no way renounced that goal.

It is not clear to me what this goal may be exactly, other than getting revenge from humans for killing his people (goblins). I understand that the Twelve Gods are probably his targets too, probably from being involved in that affair.

I am pretty sure, however, that Redcloak will not go out of his way to insist on having Xykon as part of his plan, other than in a strictly militaristic sense. Their alliance is ineherently(sp?) unstable.


It's unlikely, but at least possible. However, it pretty much requires that Xykon turn on Redcloak, not the other way around.

Which is indeed likely to happen.

[hamishspence]

His loyalty toward the goblin race is vastly higher than any loyalty to Xykon, who he resents, hates, but feels he needs, to achieve his goal, to the extent of:

killing his own brother, to keep Xykon alive.

But if Xykon gets between him and The Plan: Battle royale, I suspect.

[LuisDantas]

What do we know about the Dark One, other than that Redcloak is his cleric and that he is opposed to the Twelve Gods?

[Chronos]

What do we know about the Dark One, other than that Redcloak is his cleric and that he is opposed to the Twelve Gods?Spoilered because most of this information is from Start of Darkness:
The goblins (along with the kobolds, orcs, and other "monster" races) were originally created by the three main pantheons as XP fodder, so that the priests of the original gods would have something to kill so they could level up and use their nifty high-level abilities. So originally, the goblins had no god of their own. Since the monstrous races vastly outnumber the "civilized" PC races, they were placed in the lands that nobody else wanted, to keep them from getting too powerful and overrunning the world.

The Dark One was originally a mortal goblin, who was born with purple skin (hence his name). He was an extraordinary specimen of his race, and was able to take levels in a PC class, becomming very powerful. He united all of the goblinoids under his banner, and marched on civilized lands, but despite his overwhelming military might, he preferred a nonviolent resolution. He called for a negotiation with the three most powerful leaders of the civilized lands, to arrange a distribution of land and resources which was more equitable to his people.

But the humans didn't actually intend to negotiate; they took the opportunity of the talks to assassinate him, while he was away from the protection of his troops. They hoped that this would lead to his army dispersing, but it had the opposite effect: With him as a martyr, the goblins were even more enraged, and waged a bloody war which ended up claiming the lives of over a million humans.

This display of extreme passion on the Dark One's behalf had the effect of elevating him to godhood. Upon his apotheosis, he learned of the gods' original plan for his people, and was enraged, and started plotting against them. In the mean time, he set out to do as good a job as he could, in serving as a deity for the goblins.

It was the Dark One who first discovered what would later be called Lirian's Rift. On learning from the older evil gods of the horror imprisoned behind it, he decided that this rift could perhaps prove useful to him, and crafted an artifact, the Crimson Mantle, to give his high priest the capability of acting on his plans. When the Order of the Scribble sealed the Gates, he devised a way to corrupt the Gates, transferring it to a plane of his choice. By shifting it to the throne room of one of the gods, he hoped to be able to blackmail them into giving the goblins a fair share of the world.
He's presumed to be lawful evil, and his domains therefore include Law and Evil. He also offers the Destruction domain, since Redcloak has that. His portfolio presumably includes goblins, and he appears to be a realtively low-rank deity. Other than that, there's not much known about his stats.

[hamishspence]

While vast majority of evil or lawful deities have corresponding domains, there are a very, very few exceptions, and, conversely, deities with alignment domains, that do not actually have that alignment. Most notable:

Maglubiyet, Goblin Deity: AL: Neutral Evil: Domains: Evil, Destruction, Trickery...and Chaos.

Which is why I once idly wondered if the Giant had created a corresponding version with Law, instead of Chaos, as the unusual domain. Doubtful though.

[David Argall]

037 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0037.html) didn't really showcase his resentment towards Xykon IMO, although logically it must have been in place already.
What he shows in 37 is a willingness to work for goblin interests, without regard to what Xykon may want, as long as Xykon does not find out. In 37, he saves the goblins from becoming zombies. In 548 he is working to give the hobgoblins a stable base without Xykon finding out. Redcloak hasn't changed much.

SOD
Maybe I'm mistaken, but it is my understanding that Redcloak has been tricked by Xykon into killing Redeye. Even if that is not the case, Xykon has been far less than respectful towards him.
Xykon played no active role in any trickery. He merely allowed Righteye to attack him, and Redcloak killed him with open awareness of what he was doing. Righteye would still have died if Xykon had been totally unaware of what he was doing.


Xykon is a regreattably needed means to an end.
And that is the point. You do not attack needed means to your end, whether they are regreatable or not. They are needed, and must be put up with, at least until they are no longer needed. Redcloak needs Xykon and knows it. He is not going to be attacking Xykon.


It is not clear to me what this goal may be exactly, other than getting revenge from humans for killing his people (goblins).
Read Start of Darkness if you have not. It shows reasonably clearly what Redcloak's goals are, and why he Needs Xykon.


I am pretty sure, however, that Redcloak will not go out of his way to insist on having Xykon as part of his plan, other than in a strictly militaristic sense. Their alliance is ineherently(sp?) unstable.
That will not prevent it from lasting until after the battle for the final gate.

[LuisDantas]

I agree for the most part, but


What he shows in 37 is a willingness to work for goblin interests, without regard to what Xykon may want, as long as Xykon does not find out. In 37, he saves the goblins from becoming zombies. In 548 he is working to give the hobgoblins a stable base without Xykon finding out. Redcloak hasn't changed much.

Acting in the goblins' best interests does not imply that he has no regard to Xykon's (although it just happens to be indeed the case).

Also, Xykon is not such a fool as to not have noticed that Redcloak cares for goblinkind more than for him. It's not like he went out of his way to earn RC's affection or anything, clearly.

And a good case can be made that free-willed, motivated goblin warriors would serve Xykon better than disposable zombies. Besides, there is no way Xykon would not find out about a 401K plan that he would have to approve.

So 37 says a lot about RC's allegiance to the goblins, but nothing about how loyal he is or fails to be to Xykon.

[Warren Dew]

With regard to Xykon treating Redcloak as a minion, don't forget ...

Start of Darkness
... that wasn't always the case. It started out the other way around, and Redcloak led them into a disastrous attack on Lirian. Redcloak's plan to get them out involved turning Xykon into an undead, which wasn't an idea Xykon particularly liked at the time. Still, he acceded; when he found out being a lich was even worse than he thought, he insisted on becoming the "boss", likely to avoid having having to go through any more unilateral sacrifices for Redcloak's plan.

Don't forget it was largely Xykon who defeated Lirian, and Redcloak who blew it with respect to the gate. It was mostly Xykon who defeated Dorukan, too, though they both blew it with respect to the gate there. It wasn't until Azure City that Redcloak began pulling his own weight with respect to the plan.


Also, Xykon is not such a fool as to not have noticed that Redcloak cares for goblinkind more than for him. It's not like he went out of his way to earn RC's affection or anything, clearly.

See Start of Darkness or the above spoiler for more info on that. Your conclusions are basically right, though.

Also, with regard to the
Dark One ...

Start of Darkness
... it's far from clear that he was as justified as Redcloak painted him. How could it be that "his strength in battle was unmatched" if he "did not attack the humans"? Well, given this is a humorous comic, I suppose it would have been unmatched if he never actually went into battle, but still, coming in with a huge army and making demands that your enemies cede part of their land to you does not exactly seem peaceful and nice.

The truth is, Right Eye had it right when he said that the Dark One himself didn't really have the interests of the goblins in mind. As Right Eye demonstrated by settling down and happily raising a family, the goblins could do much better taking advantage of what land they had than by going out and trying to take more from other people.

[AceOfFools]

Spoilered because most of this information is from Start of Darkness:
The goblins (along with the kobolds, orcs, and other "monster" races) were originally created by the three main pantheons as XP fodder, so that the priests of the original gods would have something to kill so they could level up and use their nifty high-level abilities. So originally, the goblins had no god of their own. Since the monstrous races vastly outnumber the "civilized" PC races, they were placed in the lands that nobody else wanted, to keep them from getting too powerful and overrunning the world.

The Dark One was originally a mortal goblin, who was born with purple skin (hence his name). He was an extraordinary specimen of his race, and was able to take levels in a PC class, becomming very powerful. He united all of the goblinoids under his banner, and marched on civilized lands, but despite his overwhelming military might, he preferred a nonviolent resolution. He called for a negotiation with the three most powerful leaders of the civilized lands, to arrange a distribution of land and resources which was more equitable to his people.

But the humans didn't actually intend to negotiate; they took the opportunity of the talks to assassinate him, while he was away from the protection of his troops. They hoped that this would lead to his army dispersing, but it had the opposite effect: With him as a martyr, the goblins were even more enraged, and waged a bloody war which ended up claiming the lives of over a million humans.

This display of extreme passion on the Dark One's behalf had the effect of elevating him to godhood. Upon his apotheosis, he learned of the gods' original plan for his people, and was enraged, and started plotting against them. In the mean time, he set out to do as good a job as he could, in serving as a deity for the goblins.

It was the Dark One who first discovered what would later be called Lirian's Rift. On learning from the older evil gods of the horror imprisoned behind it, he decided that this rift could perhaps prove useful to him, and crafted an artifact, the Crimson Mantle, to give his high priest the capability of acting on his plans. When the Order of the Scribble sealed the Gates, he devised a way to corrupt the Gates, transferring it to a plane of his choice. By shifting it to the throne room of one of the gods, he hoped to be able to blackmail them into giving the goblins a fair share of the world.
He's presumed to be lawful evil, and his domains therefore include Law and Evil. He also offers the Destruction domain, since Redcloak has that. His portfolio presumably includes goblins, and he appears to be a realtively low-rank deity. Other than that, there's not much known about his stats.

According to one of his followers at any rate. Not the most unbiased point of view for a rather biased story.


With regard to Xykon treating Redcloak as a minion, don't forget ...

Start of Darkness
... that wasn't always the case. It started out the other way around, and Redcloak led them into a disastrous attack on Lirian. Redcloak's plan to get them out involved turning Xykon into an undead, which wasn't an idea Xykon particularly liked at the time. Still, he acceded; when he found out being a lich was even worse than he thought, he insisted on becoming the "boss", likely to avoid having having to go through any more unilateral sacrifices for Redcloak's plan.

Don't forget it was largely Xykon who defeated Lirian, and Redcloak who blew it with respect to the gate. It was mostly Xykon who defeated Dorukan, too, though they both blew it with respect to the gate there. It wasn't until Azure City that Redcloak began pulling his own weight with respect to the plan.
Wait, what?
Xykon joked about becoming undead being going to far than with a smile said, "I'm just screwing with you. C'mon, let's get undead." He is very happy with the results and on page 66 even says "Being undead is great! Why didn't I do this sooner."

The only remorse he expresses over the transformation is when he learns he can't drink coffee, and even takes pride in the fact that he did so in his speech at the end of the book. "I ripped off my own living flesh so that I wouldn't have to admit weakness. You're strictly little league compared to that."

If you look at the events leading up to the transformation, Xykon basically completely ignores RC's orders to do what he wants, consequences be damned. Xykon even agreed to listen to their pitch explicitly because he was looking for new minions and schemes. Xykon working for Redcloak was never true in the sorcerer's mind; at best they were allies working towards a common goal.

His statements about being in charge at the dinner was really him just spelling it out for his minions.

[Warren Dew]

He is very happy with the results and on page 66 even says "Being undead is great! Why didn't I do this sooner."

He says that after discovering his arthritis is gone; it's kind of a throwaway line like the one after the joke.

He's also comparing to his recent experience of being trapped underground in a cavern by Lirian in a cave with no exits, and with a disease that keeps him from ever casting any magic spells again. Almost any change would seem great after that.


The only remorse he expresses over the transformation is when he learns he can't drink coffee

Which seems to have been the only wholesome joy left in his life, given how much he visited that diner. Don't forget that he got to savor every cup of good coffee he's ever had each time he had coffee there. I don't think it's a coincidence that the first time Xykon kills someone completely randomly is the waitress after he can't enjoy the coffee. Indeed, randomly turning allies into undead may well be his best effort at replacing this joy.


Xykon working for Redcloak was never true in the sorcerer's mind; at best they were allies working towards a common goal.

Likely not, but Redcloak working for Xykon isn't true in Redcloak's mind now, either. It's just a matter of who acts like they're giving orders.

[Fawkes]

Oh, and something else I wouldn't like is if he removed his cloak and gained all the years he should have had, and died of old age. That has been done to death, plus we've seen him without the cloak in the strip, and it didn't happen, so that would be quite stupid.

When exactly was this?

[Chronos]

According to one of his followers at any rate. Not the most unbiased point of view for a rather biased story.True, and I should have included that disclaimer myself. Still, it's all we have on him.

[dps]

As you note yourself, his loyalty (whatever it may be) is to the Dark One, not necessarily towards Xykon. Xykon is a regreattably needed means to an end.


Yeah, I think that's basically correct. As I understand it, Redcloak doesn't need Xykon in particular for the plan; he needs a high-level arcane caster, but it doesn't have to be Xykon. On the other hand, he's cast his and the plan's lot with Xykon, and it would take a lot to make him try to recruit a different arcane caster, especially since along the way, he's pretty much become Xykon's bitch. I think he will try to replace Xykon only if he thinks that he won't be able to complete it with Xykon--at any rate, he's not going to give up on the plan. On yet another hand (oops, I only have 2; can I borrow someone else's? :smallbiggrin: ), I haven't read SoD, so maybe I have some things wrong.

Oh, and BTW, if he does decide to get another arcane caster, who do we know that's interested in "ultimate (arcane) power"? Hmm, could V's 4 words be, "I accept your offer", and Redcloak the being to which they are said? I think it's possible.

[LuisDantas]

Oh, and BTW, if he does decide to get another arcane caster, who do we know that's interested in "ultimate (arcane) power"? Hmm, could V's 4 words be, "I accept your offer", and Redcloak the being to which they are said? I think it's possible.

Makes sense. But I sure hope not.

[David Argall]

Yeah, I think that's basically correct. As I understand it, Redcloak doesn't need Xykon in particular for the plan; he needs a high-level arcane caster, but it doesn't have to be Xykon.
Close enough. However, Redcloak has failed to find anything remotely qualified to replace Xykon in 35 years of looking. While in much of that time, he wasn't looking too hard, we are talking about city destroying level. Such people ought to be famous, and rare. So if Redcloak doesn't know of any that are both willing and able, they probably don't exist.



if he does decide to get another arcane caster, who do we know that's interested in "ultimate (arcane) power"? Hmm, could V's 4 words be, "I accept your offer", and Redcloak the being to which they are said? I think it's possible.

It seems to fit better than most of the ideas offered. Now strictly, it is not the correct reading of the prediction as the 4 words here is only one step in the process. Still, the idea is not vulnerable to being immediately shot down.

[Kaytara]

I think Redcloak will definitely turn on Xykon in some way or another, mostly for storytelling reasons. One, as mentioned, Xykon supposedly commanded the MitD to kill Redcloak should he ever betray him, and I doubt that would have been shown if that wasn't going to come into play eventually. Two, I think Redcloak's niece is a perfect setup for a second chance of sorts. We've already been shown Redcloak undergoing some changes, both subtle and not; him refusing to repeat his old mistake in a situation concerning his niece could become the culmination of his change.

[factotum]

Close enough. However, Redcloak has failed to find anything remotely qualified to replace Xykon in 35 years of looking. While in much of that time, he wasn't looking too hard, we are talking about city destroying level. Such people ought to be famous, and rare. So if Redcloak doesn't know of any that are both willing and able, they probably don't exist.




Why do you assume the arcane caster in this matchup has to be of city destroying level? Redcloak chose Xykon in the first place simply because he was better than a drooling idiot goblin, and it wouldn't have taken much to do that--so, for all we know, a level 13 arcane caster like V (or maybe someone even lower level than that) would do just fine.

[vbushido]

After reading SoD, I have to wonder if, after Redcloak put on his eponymous cape, he became a direct conduit of the will of the Dark One. To wit, an avatar.I wonder why Redcloak himself hasn't thought about this, especially after he survived Lirian's caster disease. He went from acolyte to having his god speak directly into his brain. And if he is an avatar, it would better his odds against an epic level arcanist.

[factotum]

After reading SoD, I have to wonder if, after Redcloak put on his eponymous cape, he became a direct conduit of the will of the Dark One. To wit, an avatar.

If that were the case he would presumably no longer have any will of his own, and there was at least one moment during SoD where Redcloak was tempted to give up on the Plan and just settle down to live a normal life--that couldn't have happened if he were just a reflection of the Dark One's desires.

[Texas Jedi]

After reading SoD, I have to wonder if, after Redcloak put on his eponymous cape, he became a direct conduit of the will of the Dark One. To wit, an avatar.I wonder why Redcloak himself hasn't thought about this, especially after he survived Lirian's caster disease. He went from acolyte to having his god speak directly into his brain. And if he is an avatar, it would better his odds against an epic level arcanist.

I wouldn't go that far. I would more call him a Chosen like from Forgotten Realms. RC is tool or an instrument the Dark One uses to further his goals. Much like Elminster or the Seven Sisters they can hear what their god is saying but are not a physical representation of the god, because they have their own will.

[David Argall]

SOD

Why do you assume the arcane caster in this matchup has to be of city destroying level? Redcloak chose Xykon in the first place simply because he was better than a drooling idiot goblin, and it wouldn't have taken much to do that--so, for all we know, a level 13 arcane caster like V (or maybe someone even lower level than that) would do just fine.


SoD Too much work to hunt down the various quotes, but while I doubt it has been absolutely set out, the implication of epic level or close to it, is pretty strong.
However, the original recruitment involves Xykon taking out a paladin base and however many lizardmen that could not get away fast enough by himself. It was not that he was better than a low level goblin, but that he was way better than any goblin they were likely to find.
Now there is the point that Redcloak argued Xykon might be overqualified for the job, but Redcloak was looking for any possible reason to avoid approaching him.

[Lamech]

SOD

SoD Too much work to hunt down the various quotes, but while I doubt it has been absolutely set out, the implication of epic level or close to it, is pretty strong.
However, the original recruitment involves Xykon taking out a paladin base and however many lizardmen that could not get away fast enough by himself. It was not that he was better than a low level goblin, but that he was way better than any goblin they were likely to find.
Now there is the point that Redcloak argued Xykon might be overqualified for the job, but Redcloak was looking for any possible reason to avoid approaching him.
SoD
I don't think it was implied to be epic level, I think it was more like powerful, and in OotS level 13 would be powerful; Haley didn't think a level 13 cleric would be easy to find. In fact Redcloak thought he could preform the divine role with out being able to cast heal, so probably 10 is the upper level limit. It was said flat out being epic level was required to build the gates, I think that is what you are thinking of. (Which means if Redcloak can get his hands on four or five levels, game over for the OotS).

[LuisDantas]

Redcloak is unlikely to think about dumping Xykon for someone with a lower power level any time soon, for two simple reasons:

1) He has no idea how much opposition he will find at the remaining gates, and it would be foolish to give up on such a powerful assent on blind hope that he won't be needed. More so now that he no longer feels his troops to be expendable (see #451 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0451.html) and #456 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0456.html)).

2) He can do without having Xykon as an aditional enemy.

Besides, there are other reasons already mentioned.

[zach12376]

What would happen is that :xykon: planned for this. :mitd: eats :redcloak:

Read SoD. Redcloak is Ske-rewed if he moves against Xykon.

He does have a point, :mitd: would eat :redcloak:, what i'm woundering is whose side :roach: would be on

[zach12376]

The reasons everyone keeps saying that Redcloak won't betray Xykon are exactly the reasons he probably will. There's only so far you can bend someone before they snap, and Xykon's taking Redcloak perilously close to that point.

As for Xykon's insurance plan from SoD,
Notice how the Monster's eyes go swirly for one panel, but then immediately return to normal? Every other time we've seen someone's eyes go swirlied, they've stayed swirlied for the entire duration of the enchantment. I suspect that Monster-san's extreme naïvety and forgetfulness give him an ability similar to a rogue's Slippery Mind, and that he's therefore no longer under the influence of whatever spell that was.

Very clever, i have to go get my SoD now to cheak that

[zach12376]

Best twist ever...

Xykon kills the Dark One and seizes his godhood thanks to Redcloak's actions.

4 words

NEVER GOING TO HAPPEN!!!!!!!!! thats 4 right?!?!?!?

[David Argall]

SoD
I don't think it was implied to be epic level, I think it was more like powerful, and in OotS level 13 would be powerful; Haley didn't think a level 13 cleric would be easy to find. In fact Redcloak thought he could preform the divine role with out being able to cast heal, so probably 10 is the upper level limit. It was said flat out being epic level was required to build the gates, I think that is what you are thinking of. (Which means if Redcloak can get his hands on four or five levels, game over for the OotS).

SoD Redcloak is wearing the Redcloak, an epic, or higher, level artifact. For certain purposes, including the gates, Redcloak is epic level and was even when he was still first level.
Now it appears that this doesn't apply to building a gate. Tho it seems likely that Redcloak would not try to build one until all the other gates have been unsuccessful. He would likely deem seizing a gate a lot less work than making one [quite possibly correctly. There are all these heros who come around just as you are working on the climatic ceremony and boom! All your years of effort are gone.]