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BWM
2008-09-03, 05:10 AM
Hey all, I had a question.

My party (3rd edition (3.5), five players, ranging from level 12 to 14) encountered a CR13 Red Dragon (the first that's huge, Old (??)) and combat proceeded like this:

Warmage-level 13, let's call him Slick:
"I win initiative, during the surprise round, I cast Sudden Empowered Orb of Cold. Roll 14 on my d20 and easily hit the dragon. There's no save or Spell Resistance and I deal 130-something damage."
Rest of the party proceeds to do random stuff, nothing really interesting for this thread.

One round later (note: the warmage had a higher initiative than the dragon and thus his turn is before the dragon).
Warmage-level 13, let's call him Slick:
"I cast Sudden Empowered Orb of Cold. Roll 9 on my d20 and easily hit the dragon (touch AC = 8 or 9). There's no save or Spell Resistance and I deal 150-something damage."

The dragon has (on average) 218 hit points (according to my 3.5 Monster Manual). Why can a warmage, using two of his level-4-spells off the dragon easily.

Is Sudden Empower too good?
Is Orb of Cold too good?
Is Warmage too good?
Is Red Dragon too bad?
Or do I just suck as a DM, clearly missing some sort of rule?

ghost_warlock
2008-09-03, 05:27 AM
Personally, I think that dragon got what it deserved.

How on earth did the entire party get a surprise round? Second, why didn't it use magic to compensate for its vulnerability?

BTW, I'm pretty sure Sudden Empower is 1/day.

Dhavaer
2008-09-03, 05:27 AM
Well, first off you can only use Sudden Empower once per day.

Other than that...
At level 13, your Orb will be doing 13d6 damage, for an average of 45.5 damage. Warmages get a damage bonus to spells, so we'll say he does 50 damage, 75 with sudden empower, so ~110 with the dragon's vulnerability. ~185 damage in two rounds means the dragon is dead if anyone else in the party is dealing damage.

I'd say that the dragon really should have some defence against cold, either from a spell or an item.

Kaihaku
2008-09-03, 05:27 AM
Well...

1. Sudden Empower is once a day. So that's off.
2. The orb spells are yeah... They tear apart most things that don't have a decent touch AC. You could homerule that SR applies to orb spells, but I wouldn't recommend doing do it in the middle of a sitting.
3. Warmages are only good at causing damage, he's a great canon but throw something at him that he can't beat through damage. Another approach...last big campaign I was in the warmage could slaughter enemies like no other but he died more than any other character because...it's logical to focus fire on the guy who just took out half your forces in a round.
4. I guess it's in character to deduce that a Red Dragon would be strong to fire and open to cold damage, but if he plays to the in-game strengths of less obvious monsters I'd warn him and mix things up from the MM stats.
5. Sometimes things like this just happen... It doesn't mean that you're a terrible DM, it just means that the system is off-balance. One way to counter it is having intelligent enemies like the Red Dragon buff up beforehand, get its touch AC up a bit higher.

Elhann
2008-09-03, 05:41 AM
Is Sudden Empower too good?
Is Orb of Cold too good?
Is Warmage too good?
Is Red Dragon too bad?
Or do I just suck as a DM, clearly missing some sort of rule?

Well, sudden empower is once each day, so used as he used it, it is too good, yes. And since they are spontaneous casters, I'd guess they need to spend a full round action to metamagic a spell.

Orb spells are considered very good as damage dealers. Since the warmage is pretty much about blasting, orbs are a sensible option.
Anyway, a 13d6 empowered orb of cold averages at 68 hps. As red dragons and cold don't mix well, that's makes around 100 points average. He rolled quite well to get 130 and 150 points of damage.

Warmage is not too good. They're archers that shoot spells instead of arrows.

About red dragons... I don't think they're bad at all. I would like to know how they got it flatfooted, as young adults red dragons have decent INT and WIS to protect themselves against ambushes or raiders in their lairs, and a 14 CHA is enough to have some dragon worshipping kobolds as an alarm device.

Speaking about alarm, young adult red dragon cast spells as a 5th level sorc. Alarm and shield are probably good options as 1st level choices.
Since Hide is not a class skill for reds, invisibility is a good choice as a second level.

With alarm and invisibilty, the odds of a surprise rond against the dragon are much smaller.

If they found the dragon in the open, well, this one has a 150 fly movement. After suffering 130 points of cold damage, a 14 INT dragon will use that 150 fly move to retreat into his lair, and live to fight another day. Or just later, when the warmage has used his spells on his [insert dragon minion race] buddies.

EDIT: Well, I got SO ninja-ed...

Eldariel
2008-09-03, 05:53 AM
The Dragon should've had Scintillating Scales, Mirror Image and quite possibly something like Resist Energy cast (or some item of Resist Cold - it's a Dragon, it has a huge horde of magic items and all that, it's smart and it knows cold does bad things to it, so having some cold-protection would make perfect sense). That would mean there'd be very high Touch AC (could also use Mage Armor, Shield and company), very much difficulty hitting the right target and less devastating hits from cold energy. Part of Dragons' CR is that they're combatants with magic to buff themselves with. If the magic is not used, the danger they pose is considerably lower (more precisely, they're far more vulnerable to high damage offense).

Also, didn't the Dragon take flight? Generally, Dragons should always be flying, and Orb-range is close so had it taken it to the air, the Warmage would've never been in a position to Orb it in the first place. Basically, Warmages are very far from broken (as has been said, they're practically archers with magic instead of arrows - lower range, ability to hit weakness), Orbs are very potent but still fair (since they're Conjuration, no SR spells, but they still require a Touch Attack, close range and can be defended against with energy protection).

Belial_the_Leveler
2008-09-03, 06:16 AM
Deflect Ray is a 4th level spell that renders the Orbs useless.
Incorporeal enemies ignore the orbs because the orbs are conjurations an thus nonmagical.
Swarms ignore the orbs.
Mirror Image gives you a 7/8 chance to ignore an orb and is a 2nd level spell.
Contingency+any low level translocation spell can help you ignore a single attack, no matter how powerful.
A +3 defending amulet of natural attacks can give a dragon or a demon +15 touch AC for a pretty low cost.
The two mantles (Icy Soul and Fiery Spirit) can give immunity to cold and fire for a total of 35.000 gp. Add a natural immunity and you won't worry about orbs again.

There are counters aplenty, these are just a few. Use them.

Kurald Galain
2008-09-03, 06:24 AM
Well, the young adult red dragon's defensive capabilities are slightly diminished because it's unable to use spells higher than 2nd level. Nevertheless, it is intelligent enough to use some of its treasure to that purpose, or use low-level spells to give it energy resistance.

A really nasty trick is to have the dragon employ Change Self to appear like a different color of dragon...

Tokiko Mima
2008-09-03, 06:56 AM
Well, something is wrong with the Warmage's math. The Orb spells do 1d6 damage per caster level (max 15d6.) A Sudden Empowered Orb of Cold is going to do 68ish damage on average if cast at CL 13 (which becomes 102ish against a red dragon.) The most it could ever do is 135 damage and that's rolling maximized (all 6's) at CL 15+. However, it's possible to do as much as 202 against something vulnerable to cold.

Was he Sudden Maximizing it too? Because that's what it sounds like. And yeah, touch spells are evil for large monsters. Their touch AC is usually terrible so the warmage was targetting two specific weaknesses. Usually dragons come up with a way to defend against themselves against the element they are vulnerable too, but this one didn't so frankly it deserved to die.

Also, this was a dragon with a CR equal to the party level. It shouldn't have been too difficult to kill anyway. For a tough dragon, you need a CR that's a couple above the party and the dragon should have one or more minions to defend it (Iron Golems work great because the dragon can heal them with it's breath weapon, for example.)

Starbuck_II
2008-09-03, 07:02 AM
Hey all, I had a question.

My party (3rd edition (3.5), five players, ranging from level 12 to 14) encountered a CR13 Red Dragon (the first that's huge, Old (??)) and combat proceeded like this:

Warmage-level 13, let's call him Slick:
"I win initiative, during the surprise round, I cast Sudden Empowered Orb of Cold. Roll 14 on my d20 and easily hit the dragon. There's no save or Spell Resistance and I deal 130-something damage."
Rest of the party proceeds to do random stuff, nothing really interesting for this thread.

One round later (note: the warmage had a higher initiative than the dragon and thus his turn is before the dragon).
Warmage-level 13, let's call him Slick:
"I cast Sudden Empowered Orb of Cold. Roll 9 on my d20 and easily hit the dragon (touch AC = 8 or 9). There's no save or Spell Resistance and I deal 150-something damage."

The dragon has (on average) 218 hit points (according to my 3.5 Monster Manual). Why can a warmage, using two of his level-4-spells off the dragon easily.

Is Sudden Empower too good?
Is Orb of Cold too good?
Is Warmage too good?
Is Red Dragon too bad?
Or do I just suck as a DM, clearly missing some sort of rule?


Is that damage figure before vulnerability or after?

DigoDragon
2008-09-03, 07:19 AM
While you can only use the Sudden Empower feat once a day, it is possible to take the feat multiple times for additional daily uses. Check to see how many times the player has taken the feat.

I'm also thinking the math might be a little off, but I'd need to know what the dice actually rolled. It's possible to roll nearly all "boxcars"... not likely, but possible. :smallamused:

Tsotha-lanti
2008-09-03, 07:26 AM
Also, this was a dragon with a CR equal to the party level. It shouldn't have been too difficult to kill anyway. For a tough dragon, you need a CR that's a couple above the party and the dragon should have one or more minions to defend it (Iron Golems work great because the dragon can heal them with it's breath weapon, for example.)

People always forget this. A "proper" ( = tough) dragon encounter for 4 PCs has a CR 3-4 higher than the average party level.


As for the OP;

Orbs are the most powerful single-target damage spells in existence. They're the method for defeating enemies with high SR or saves.

How was Sudden Empower used twice in a row? As DM, you do need to know all the rules in use (this is why DMs have to be familiar with all sourcebooks and supplements used in their game). You should also be aware of exactly how the damage is composed. As Tokiko Mima points out, the math is a bit odd here. Remember, the more dice you roll, the more likely you are to stay near averages.

Note, also, that the Warmage was effectively using a 6th-level spell. The Sudden Metamagic feats aren't overpowered as such, but they are powerful, especially if you, for instance, toss one-a-day random encounters at PCs, allowing them to burn all their limited-use abilities in each combat. However, the fact that they effectively allow PCs to use spells well above their maximum level could be considered unbalancing.

Also, resist energy is a 2nd-level spell. Every spellcasting dragon is smart enough to cover their elemental vulnerabilities. (Or use disguise self or similar illusions to take on the appearance of a dragon of another type; red becomes white, etc.)

Tokiko Mima
2008-09-03, 07:49 AM
Right. I would also look at how the PC's got a surprise round too. Dragons have Spot and Listen checks up the wahzoo, along with Darkvision 120', lowlight vision x4, and blindsense. Red dragons are especially paranoid, and certain to have alarms (magical and non-magical) set up to give it an early warning. If the dragons have minions, you can be sure they will warn the dragon before you get to it.

It usually takes someone with the Darkstalker feat, an awesome Hide check and invisibility/hide from dragons to actually catch a dragon completely unaware for a surprise round. Being flatfooted also really hurt the dragons chances of surviving an Orb attack, so there you go.

CR13 Red Dragon was (a) surprised, (b) flatfooted, (c) targeted by two (d) touch AC spells that do huge single target (e) cold damage. That's five things the dragon did wrong right there, so it's no wonder it got shanked.

Tsotha-lanti
2008-09-03, 08:05 AM
Right. I would also look at how the PC's got a surprise round too. Dragons have Spot and Listen checks up the wahzoo, along with Darkvision 120', lowlight vision x4, and blindsense. Red dragons are especially paranoid, and certain to have alarms (magical and non-magical) set up to give it an early warning. If the dragons have minions, you can be sure they will warn the dragon before you get to it.

This can not be over-emphasized.

The reason dragons are so iconic to D&D is because you build adventures around them, just like you build adventures around dungeons.

A dragon will subjugate or employ evil humanoids and intelligent monsters where ever it lives, and may even breed half-dragon monsters and animals for protection, spying, and the like.

It will have extensive alarm systems - way more complex and effective than a mere alarm spell. It will have spies, perches to watch from, traps and alarms, and multiple layers of defense. They're greedy and paranoid creatures, sure to spend a great deal of their time and energy just waiting for someone to try to steal their hoard or territory. They also do not fight on their opponent's terms - even stupid white dragons are intelligent enough to understand that.

For instance, a red dragon would probably live in a mountain cave, preferrably one connecting to a live or dormant volcano crater, or in another area of geothermal heat (like hot springs). Ideally, its hide-out will be sweltering, enough to discomfort or even damage intruders. It will have multiple exits at different heights and sides of the mountain (probably several high in the volcano shaft), and likely an entrance or a false entrance (into a cave that does not connect to the main caverns, for instance) at ground level to lure in adventurers, with traps and secret perches to attack from, and collapsible passages to retreat into (just slapping the pillar or support with its tail when passing through a portal will work). Preferrably, the area will be inhabited by native monsters, intelligent humanoids, or dangerous animals - there's plenty of each that are resistant to fire. The pickiest, eldest, and most powerful red dragons would live near portals into the Elemental Plane of Fire (especially in, say, Faerūn), and employ evil fire creatures like efreeti and salamanders. Any intelligent humanoids - humans, orcs, goblins, hobgoblins, ogres, fire giants - in the area will be either terrorized, subjugated, commanded, or allied with.

Dragons take a lot of DMing to do properly, but they can be incredibly fun challenges.

None of that helps with your specific issue, though. It's obvious there was something funky with the Warmage, and (less importantly) something wrong with the dragon's tactics. (Why was it surprised, caught at orb-firing range, and unprotected?)

Tokiko Mima
2008-09-03, 08:06 AM
Of course, I say this with a touch of hypocrisy, as someone that recently slew a party level + 8 CR Dragon in a single round with Empowered Maximized Quickened hellfire glaive attacks. But the dragon foolishly allowed the rest of the party to distract it as my warlock circled around to close the gap to the 10' range needed to make that attack.

So large damage does not always indicate a problem with a spell or ability: sometimes it's a problem with tactics and allowing enemies to go undetected or ignored.Smart foes will not let a warmage hit them where they are weak.

Epinephrine
2008-09-03, 08:16 AM
I'll just agree with everyone who points out that the dragon was not played optimally - though it's possible that the characters did a superb job of getting by the dragon's defenses.

Magic items can fill a hole in a younger dragon's arsenal pretty nicely - and there's no reason why a smart dragon wouldn't have managed to get some items it likes in the treasure - they are intelligent, often employ humanoid minions as go betweens, and are certainly clever enough to realise that some protection items are worth having, particularly defending against cold since that's a huge weakness. They generally would know that foes seeking them out will be buffed against their breath weapon, so they certainly won't rely on it and then look surprised when it's shrugged off, and if they employ minions, the minons will have attacks that don't use the same energy type when possible.

Gorbash
2008-09-03, 10:43 AM
Not to mention that during surprise round you only have a standard action, so he couldn't have cast any metamagicked spells.

Frosty
2008-09-03, 10:45 AM
Do Sudden metamagics actualy increase casting time?

Gorbash
2008-09-03, 10:48 AM
It says it doesn't increase level of the spell and that you don't have to prepare it ahead of time. Nothing in description indicates that they don't increase cast time. This is of course, my interpretation, I could be wrong...

valadil
2008-09-03, 10:50 AM
PCs usually tear apart unbuffed enemies. At the very least the dragon should have had resist cold or protection from cold up so that the party would have to spend another round dispelling it. Mirror image is also a good idea - even if the fighters can't hit the dragon as hard as the Warmage they can tear down mirrors so the Orbs hit the right target.

Starbuck_II
2008-09-03, 10:51 AM
Do Sudden metamagics actualy increase casting time?

They specifically said it didn't increase time in Minatures' Handbook when they were originally published, but when imported to Complete Arcane: they don't mention it.
It is assumed but never stated.

Frosty
2008-09-03, 11:05 AM
They specifically said it didn't increase time in Minatures' Handbook when they were originally published, but when imported to Complete Arcane: they don't mention it.
It is assumed but never stated.

I've always played that it doesn't increase casting time. I think that's the RAI.

Chronos
2008-09-03, 11:25 AM
OK, I'll assume that your warmage has a caster level of 14 (maybe he has a reserve feat or something to up his caster level), so his orbs do a base of 14d6 damage. I'll further assume that for Empower, he was rolling 14d6 and multiplying by 1.5, rather than rolling 21d6 (yes, there is a difference). That means his first roll, before empowering and vulnerability, was about 59, and his second roll, likewise, was about 67.

A roll of 14d6 can be very well approximated by a Gaussian with a mean of 49, and a variance of 40.83, for a standard deviation of about 6.39 . That means his first roll was 1.56 standard deviations above the mean, and his second roll was 2.82 standard deviations above the mean. That means that for his first roll, he had about a 0.059 chance (about 1 in 17) of rolling that well or better, and for his second, he had about a 0.0024 chance (about 1 in 417) of rolling that well or better.

And this isn't even considering the chance of them successfully surprising the dragon. A Young Adult (Huge, CR 13) red dragon will have Listen and Spot checks of at least +24 or so, as well as blindsense, keen senses, and darkvision. Unless your warmage spent all of his skill points on Hide and Move Silently cross-class, and also took the Darkstalker feat, and all of the party did likewise, that gives him a 0% chance of sneaking up on the dragon. Even if he did do all of that, he'd have at most +10 or so to Hide and Move Silently, compared to the dragon's +24, giving him a 3/80 chance on each skill, or 9/6400 for both of them.

Putting it all together, either your characters are built extremely oddly in a way that would be helpful only for this particular encounter and got insanely lucky, or there's something going on that you don't know about. And when there's something going on that the DM doesn't know about, there's a real problem.

Emperor Tippy
2008-09-03, 11:38 AM
Warmages get Int to damage with spells IIRC. That could easily be an extra 10 points of damage on each use (pre empower or vulnerability).

As for using Sudden Empower twice, the DM might have been mistaken and one of them might have been Sudden Maximize. If one was SM then that would deal 168+Int damage after vulnerability (assuming CL 14).

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-09-03, 11:43 AM
It looks like the math is off. If the Warmage was rolling 17d6 those numbers would work, but the Orb spells only scale to 15d6. Spellgifted and a Reserve feat would get him 15d6, but I can't think of any way to boost the damage further.

Isn't there a feat that adds 1 to the damage per spell level? That would just mean he's obscenely lucky, which is worse for a DM than blatantly cheating.

Edit: Sudden Maximize would make that second attack reasonable, especially with 15d6. Then you're only looking at lucky on that first roll, assuming he found a way to boost the damage a bit.

Tokiko Mima
2008-09-03, 11:47 AM
I've always played that it doesn't increase casting time. I think that's the RAI.

I agree. If it allows prepared casters to use the spell without preparation then it should allow sorcerers to cast without extra metamagic casting time. Otherwise I think the feat would have noted that Wizards would be required to take the casting time penalty because they are spontaneously applying metamagic in the same manner Sorcerers usually do. :smallamused:

In any case, this warmage is high enough level to have taken the Rapid Metamagic feat that frees spontaneous casters from having to deal with that casting time drawback.


Warmages get Int to damage with spells IIRC. That could easily be an extra 10 points of damage on each use (pre empower or vulnerability).

Not that I doubt ya Tippy, but warmages are an entirely Charisma based class (just like Sorcerers: Save DC, max spell level, bonus spells) What's a Warmage doing with an Int mod of +10?

Stupendous_Man
2008-09-03, 11:52 AM
Deflect Ray is a 4th level spell that renders the Orbs useless.

??????????

Person_Man
2008-09-03, 11:58 AM
How is it any different then anyone using Leap Attack on a touch attack (Wraithstrike, Pyrokineticist, Flame Blade, Fire Dagger, Master Thrower/Bloodstorm Blade, etc) against an enemy denied their Dex bonus (Greater Invisibility, Ring of Blinking w/ Pierce Magical Concealment, a million other ways)? It's pretty easy to deal high amounts of damage with a high amount of reliability in 3.5 D&D. But if your PCs choose to abuse it, its also quite easy to increase the number and/or power level of your enemies.

hamishspence
2008-09-03, 11:58 AM
What book is Deflect Ray in? Checked PHB, PHB2, Spell Compendium, Complete Arcane, Complete Mage. Is it in another book?

Burley
2008-09-03, 12:07 PM
??????????

I think Deflect Ray helps with all Ranged Touch Attacks.

Frosty
2008-09-03, 12:11 PM
I think Deflect Ray helps with all Ranged Touch Attacks.

No, only Rays, and the spell is called Ray Deflection and is in the Spell Compendium.

hamishspence
2008-09-03, 12:15 PM
yes, was a bit puzzled by name. And wording of spell is: "For the duration of the spell, you are protected against ranged touch attacks, including ray spells and ray attcaks made by creatures." And Orb spells require a ranged touch attack to hit. Hmm.

Frosty
2008-09-03, 12:24 PM
yes, was a bit puzzled by name. And wording of spell is: "For the duration of the spell, you are protected against ranged touch attacks, including ray spells and ray attcaks made by creatures." And Orb spells require a ranged touch attack to hit. Hmm.

Are you sure that's the wording from the spell compendium?

hamishspence
2008-09-03, 12:25 PM
It is. It also says that rays are reflected harmlessly.

Tokiko Mima
2008-09-03, 12:26 PM
I think Deflect Ray helps with all Ranged Touch Attacks.

My Search-Fu fails to locate this spell as well. I'm very much interested in reading it though, as it would really nerf my warlock to have a spell that stops specifically halts ranged touch attacks.

This particular dragon is too young, but I assume older dragons prebuff themselves with Globes of Invulnerability which hedges out the entire Orb spell line. I've never heard of Deflect Ray. There is a feat from dragon magazine called Deflect Energy that allows Favored Souls to return a portion of any energy damage they resist back at the caster, but it's not specific to Rays.

Edit: Wow, that spell really does a number on warlocks, doesn't it? On the other hand, that's a defense buff I'm definately having my warlock make into a wand.

hamishspence
2008-09-03, 12:27 PM
It turns out it is actually Ray Deflection.

ColdSepp
2008-09-03, 12:31 PM
PG 166, Spell Compendium

RAY DEFLECTION
Abjuration
Level: Bard 4, sorcerer/wizard 4


For the duration of the spell, you
are protected against ranged touch
attacks, including ray spells and ray
attacks made by creatures. Any ray
attack directed at you is automatically
reflected harmlessly away.
Focus: A glass prism.

Sinfire Titan
2008-09-03, 12:31 PM
Deflect Ray is a 4th level spell that renders the Orbs useless.
Incorporeal enemies ignore the orbs because the orbs are conjurations an thus nonmagical.
Swarms ignore the orbs.
Mirror Image gives you a 7/8 chance to ignore an orb and is a 2nd level spell.
Contingency+any low level translocation spell can help you ignore a single attack, no matter how powerful.
A +3 defending amulet of natural attacks can give a dragon or a demon +15 touch AC for a pretty low cost.
The two mantles (Icy Soul and Fiery Spirit) can give immunity to cold and fire for a total of 35.000 gp. Add a natural immunity and you won't worry about orbs again.

There are counters aplenty, these are just a few. Use them.

Ray Deflection only applies to Rays. The orbs are not Rays, no matter how similar they are (it has to say "Effect: Ray" in order for Ray Deflection to block it).

hamishspence
2008-09-03, 12:34 PM
"Ranged touch attacks, including rays" is the wording.

Frosty
2008-09-03, 12:35 PM
Even if by RAW Ray deflection works on non-rays, in my games they'd be nerfed to only work against rays.

hamishspence
2008-09-03, 12:39 PM
As it stands the name is a little misleading. "Ranged touch attack deflection?":smallbiggrin:

Burley
2008-09-03, 01:16 PM
Edit: Wow, that spell really does a number on warlocks, doesn't it? On the other hand, that's a defense buff I'm definately having my warlock make into a wand.

Ah, but well made warlock will have ranks in Spellcraft for identifying the spell, and one of the Dispell Magic invocations.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-09-03, 01:18 PM
Edit: Wow, that spell really does a number on warlocks, doesn't it? On the other hand, that's a defense buff I'm definately having my warlock make into a wand.That's what Elderitch Glaive is for.

Tokiko Mima
2008-09-03, 01:19 PM
Ah, but well made warlock will have ranks in Spellcraft for identifying the spell, and one of the Dispell Magic invocations.

True, but I'm going to say you'd likely be better off with Eldritch Glaive because I've seen too many tricks where wizards make buffs spells nigh-undispellable. At least melee touch attacks still penetrate.

Edit: Ninja'ed! :smallwink:

Belial_the_Leveler
2008-09-03, 01:20 PM
Even if by RAW Ray deflection works on non-rays, in my games they'd be nerfed to only work against rays.

Even if by RAW Orb spells work on everyone, in my games they'd be nerfed to work only on targets whose touch AC is 20 points higher than the wizard's attack bonus.


Both statements simply ruin the balance of the spells in question. This is especially true since Ray Deflection and Orb spells balance eachother.

Frosty
2008-09-03, 01:27 PM
Orb spells may receive their own nerfs if needed, but Ray Deflection protects against WAY too much with one spell.

valadil
2008-09-03, 01:31 PM
What's the duration on Ray Deflection? Even rounds seems pretty damn good, but anything beyond that sounds broken to me. What if it were 1 round duration and swift?

Frosty
2008-09-03, 01:34 PM
Swift? Not worth it. Immediate? Very worth it.

The duration is one round/level, but if you Extend it (or just raise your CL somehow), it's good for the ENTIRE FIGHT!

Tokiko Mima
2008-09-03, 01:35 PM
What's the duration on Ray Deflection? Even rounds seems pretty damn good, but anything beyond that sounds broken to me. What if it were 1 round duration and swift?

It's minutes/level, I believe.

Edit: It is 1 minute/level. I double-checked. And personal range, so you have to be the caster or have a way around that restriction.

hamishspence
2008-09-03, 01:50 PM
it was originally called minor reflection. I am not sure what book it first appeared in: Tome and Blood? I don't have it so can't check. Was it better, or worse, then?

Sholos
2008-09-03, 01:53 PM
As it stands the name is a little misleading. "Ranged touch attack deflection?":smallbiggrin:

Had the Orb spells been released at the time SC came out?

MammonAzrael
2008-09-03, 01:56 PM
Had the Orb spells been released at the time SC came out?

They're IN the SC. So yes. :smallsmile:

Frosty
2008-09-03, 02:02 PM
It's minutes/level, I believe.

Edit: It is 1 minute/level. I double-checked. And personal range, so you have to be the caster or have a way around that restriction.

Well crud. I definitely need to nerf that spell a bit in my games.

Orbs have been around since before SC. They were in Complete Arcane.

Chronos
2008-09-03, 02:02 PM
And even if they weren't, there were non-ray ranged touch spells in core, too, like [Melf's] Acid Arrow.

hamishspence
2008-09-03, 02:03 PM
and before that, Complete Arcane had them, before that, Miniatures Handbook, before that, Tome and Blood. They go back to early 3.0. Which is why I wondered if "Minor deflection" did the same back then.

Belial_the_Leveler
2008-09-03, 02:19 PM
Yes, it did.


As for it being overpowered, it isn't. It protects against the Orb Spells, the Rays and Arcane Reached touch spells. On the other hand, Greater Invisibility automatically protects against ALL targeted spells and abilities(you can't target invisible creatures) and offers pretty good defence against meele and ranged combat. Death Ward protects against the entire Necromancy School, energy drain and negative energy attacks of creatures and death effects.

So Ray Deflection is not stronger than the other primary 4th level buffs.

Frosty
2008-09-03, 02:21 PM
Yes, it did.


As for it being overpowered, it isn't. It protects against the Orb Spells, the Rays and Arcane Reached touch spells. On the other hand, Greater Invisibility automatically protects against ALL targeted spells and abilities(you can't target invisible creatures) and offers pretty good defence against meele and ranged combat. Death Ward protects against the entire Necromancy School, energy drain and negative energy attacks of creatures and death effects.

So Ray Deflection is not stronger than the other primary 4th level buffs.

Greater invisibility also only lasts rounds/level, not minutes per level.

ghost_warlock
2008-09-03, 02:42 PM
Greater invisibility also only lasts rounds/level, not minutes per level.

And ray deflection doesn't work against all targetted attacks.

Sholos
2008-09-03, 02:57 PM
Well crud. I definitely need to nerf that spell a bit in my games.

Orbs have been around since before SC. They were in Complete Arcane.

You should probably nerf Orb spells, too, then. I mean, they're already absurdly powerful anyways. Maybe give them a save, or something.

I think the point of Ray Deflection was to offer a counter to No Save-No SR spells.

Frosty
2008-09-03, 02:59 PM
Well here's the thing. Orbs are the clear front-runner in damage. That is not in doubt. I just happen to believe that Blasting is completely sub-par and could use a boost anyways. What I would do is change Orbs to the Evocation school, so give that school a boost.

Person_Man
2008-09-03, 03:02 PM
There's also a 3rd level Cleric and Wizard/Sorcerer spell in Heroes of Battle called Battlemagic Perception. It lasts 10 minutes per level. If you succeed on a Spellcraft check to identify as spell, you can counter the spell as its being cast (per the normal rules, so you need Dispel Magic or whatnot memorized) as a free action - which also ends Battlemagic Perception.

But regardless, we should all remember that magic in 3.5 is a lot like Mutually Assured Destruction. As long as you play nice and don't nuke anyone, battles are manageable. But once you start dropping the Sudden Empowered Orbs or start trying to out think or out plan your DM with Ray Deflection or Battlemagic Perception or Celerity or whatever, you can expect retaliation, and your PC will eventually be vaporized. So my advice is that you optimize, but only pull out your crazy combos for the BBEG. Otherwise you're just asking your DM to screw you.

hamishspence
2008-09-03, 03:02 PM
some of them have a save: Electricity, acid, sound, cold and fire all have a secondary effect you can save against. Force does not. Sadly, you cannot save against primary effect.

But yes, they are worryingly powerful for 4th level spells.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-09-03, 03:08 PM
some of them have a save: Electricity, acid, sound, cold and fire all have a secondary effect you can save against. Force does not. Sadly, you cannot save against primary effect.

But yes, they are worryingly powerful for 4th level spells.I don't think so. 4th level, so 7d6. Average 24.5 damage. A good Fighter at that level will be dealing 2d6(weapon)+6(Str)+1(Enhancement)+2d6(Holy) damage, per attack. That adds up to 21 average damage. Not a huge difference, and the Fighter can full attack. Yes, the Orbs can target weaknesses, and only needs a touch, but they also have a daily limit. They're balanced, they're just better than the other blast spells, which isn't a bad thing.

Frosty
2008-09-03, 03:08 PM
some of them have a save: Electricity, acid, sound, cold and fire all have a secondary effect you can save against. Force does not. Sadly, you cannot save against primary effect.

But yes, they are worryingly powerful for 4th level spells.

They also don't harm multiple enemies, like the lower level spells do. They're good, but not borked.

hamishspence
2008-09-03, 03:12 PM
How much of a difference is there between orbs and oher single-target spells in that level range?

If its big difference, if they are the best single target damage spells of their level, or beat out corresponding higher level spells for utility, they are worryingly powerful without necessarily breaking the game completely: orbs may be powerful but are probably not worst offender.

Belial_the_Leveler
2008-09-03, 03:54 PM
Twinned, Sudden Maximised (or rod maximised) Orb of X. Yeah, you get it at 16th level unless you use arcane thesis and Incantatrix cheese to get it earlier.

BUT, it automatically hits every single monster of that level out there. The monster takes 180 points of damage, 270 points if you manage to nail a weakness. That's auto-death to all but CR 20+ dragons and the Tarrasque, no save, no SR. AND the monster must make TWO saves or get nauseated/dazed.

Tokiko Mima
2008-09-03, 03:57 PM
I wouldn't say they do too much damage. Fireball is a third level spell that does the same 1d6/CL energy damage in a 20 radius spread. It caps out lower (10d6) and it triggers SR and gives a save for half, but isn't a ranged touch so you really can't miss. But then the Orb spells hit only a single target and are a spell level higher.

Seems balanced to me, but I know which one I'd use on a high-SR dragon, and which I'd use on horde of lower level minions. They're good at different things. :smallsmile:

aarondirebear
2008-09-03, 04:44 PM
The orb spells are the problem.
They made them conjuration to be cheesy and make them not offer SR.

Frosty
2008-09-03, 04:47 PM
Twinned, Sudden Maximised (or rod maximised) Orb of X. Yeah, you get it at 16th level unless you use arcane thesis and Incantatrix cheese to get it earlier.

BUT, it automatically hits every single monster of that level out there. The monster takes 180 points of damage, 270 points if you manage to nail a weakness. That's auto-death to all but CR 20+ dragons and the Tarrasque, no save, no SR. AND the monster must make TWO saves or get nauseated/dazed.

It's an 8th level spell. It *better* be good. 270 points of damage is not super-impressive at 16th level. And ho0w many times can you do it? Three times *IF* you have a Greater Rod of Maximize?

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-09-03, 10:41 PM
The orb spells are the problem.
They made them conjuration to be cheesy and make them not offer SR.Did you not see my post? Yes, the Orb spells deal damage and don't allow SR. You know what deals more damage and doesn't allow SR? A Greatsword. And it can be used in a full-attack, too. Better nerf the ZOMG overpowered Fighters!

Really people, the Orbs make blasting viable, and are still underpowered. Don't worry about them, just check the player's math.

Frosty
2008-09-03, 10:44 PM
Full-attacking + Wraithstrike = more broken than Orbs anyways

Epinephrine
2008-09-03, 10:49 PM
Full-attacking + Wraithstrike = more broken than Orbs anyways

Right, hence houserules about broken spells. Funny that Wrathstrike is the same level as Sure Strike, which gives a bonus of +1/3 levels and affects one attack. I'm fine with banning wraithstrike, and house ruling that one can't power attack on any touch attack.

Chronos
2008-09-04, 12:15 AM
You know what I just realized? The orb spells (except for force) are listed as "Fortitude partial", meaning that with Mettle, a save completely negates them. Ironically, the lesser orbs don't have the extra effect, so they don't have a save at all, so Mettle doesn't help with them.

Sholos
2008-09-04, 03:35 AM
You know what I just realized? The orb spells (except for force) are listed as "Fortitude partial", meaning that with Mettle, a save completely negates them. Ironically, the lesser orbs don't have the extra effect, so they don't have a save at all, so Mettle doesn't help with them.

If Mettle is the same thing as Evasion except for Fort, then no, it doesn't work that way. Evasion only lets avoid damage on things that normally deal half damage on a save, not "Partial" saves. Partial isn't the same as Half.

Frosty
2008-09-04, 03:46 AM
Technically, the wording on Mettle allows for what Chronos says, but, I count the damage and the status effect as two different effects, so in my games the damage still goes through, using RAI.

Kurald Galain
2008-09-04, 03:48 AM
:vaarsuvius: Protection from Arrows functions equally well against shuriken. Hence, a spell that is named after ray protection may also be a fortuitous defense against certain non-ray spells.

Bayar
2008-09-04, 03:53 AM
You know what I just realized? The orb spells (except for force) are listed as "Fortitude partial", meaning that with Mettle, a save completely negates them. Ironically, the lesser orbs don't have the extra effect, so they don't have a save at all, so Mettle doesn't help with them.

That only negates the side effects, not the damage. And frankly, who cares about *insert random effect here* that lasts 1 round (or how much it lasts, lazy to double-check) when you just smeared the target's insides all over the place ?

(I like sonic attacks)

BobVosh
2008-09-04, 04:03 AM
Mettle (Su): A pious templar's special blessing allows her to shrug off magical effects that would otherwise harm her. If a pious templar makes a successful Will or Fortitude saving throw that would normally reduce the spell's effect she suffers no effect from the spell at all. Only those spells with a Saving Throw entry of "Will partial," "Fortitude half," or similar entries can be negated through this ability.

Obviously taken from Pious Templar. Reads the same on hexblade, except for the obvious. Beyond that I don't think another class in most books has mettle.

It negates the damage and effect. Except on sonic. Which is why it is superior is many ways.

Ray deflection is hardly that good. How many range touch spells do you really use? I can think of orbs, a couple rays that do ability damage, and using archmage's arcane reach. Beyond that...not so much.

Eldariel
2008-09-04, 04:12 AM
Crusader gets it on level 13. And yea, Orbs are funny like that - the extra effect is actually negative against characters with Mettle. Orb of Force solves though.

Tokiko Mima
2008-09-04, 05:06 AM
Ray deflection is hardly that good. How many range touch spells do you really use? I can think of orbs, a couple rays that do ability damage, and using archmage's arcane reach. Beyond that...not so much.

Well, there is a class that pretty much uses nothing but ranged touches, ya know. It would be like warlocks getting an ability to automatically negate all arcane spells that don't have a range of personal. The issue is not that the spell is too good for it's level, it's that it provides an absolute immunity to a particular attack vector with no way of breaking it aside from dispel, which wizards will almost inevitably be better at than anyone else will be.

Higher level Warlocks should be able to make a caster level check or something to bypass a 4th level spell, but per RAW they can't. So it's possible for a 7th level wizard to be completely immune to the majority of a 20th level Warlock's attack for enough time to easily wear the Warlock down. It's like how Freedom of Movement doesn't seem powerful until you realize that being able to automatically succeed on a grapple check to escape a grapple means Grappling itself is now useless, as well as Swallow Whole, the Escape Artist skill, Improved Grapple (feat and SA), Rake, and anything that depends on a grapple to start. It nullifies a lot of things.

For example, and not that many people fought them, but Ray Deflection makes occulus demons simple to kill. Their toughest ability was the free action paralyzing eyebeams that are a ranged touch to hit and the trueseeing that made them impossible to sneak by. Now they have nothing to make you worry... you just run up and kill them before they raise an alarm.

I just don't think it's very well balanced in the grand scheme of things... in my opinion, of course.

Bayar
2008-09-04, 05:13 AM
I just don't think it's very well balanced in the grand scheme of things... in my opinion, of course.

When was the last time something was balanced in D&D ?

Kaihaku
2008-09-04, 05:15 AM
A spell that screws an entire character build? True Seeing?

BobVosh
2008-09-04, 05:18 AM
So one class...which I might point out has so many ways around needing the range touch, and one demon...that I don't believe I have every encountered.

If your 20th level warlock doesn't have a wand/rod/staff/whatever of dispel, greater dispel, dysjunction, etc I'm really surprised. Espically since they have every craft feat at level 13. (I think) May be 14. Also someone mentioned an invocation that does dispel.

And the spell you say is good when you consider it is the same level as ray deflection.

How many NPCs do you fight have warlock levels? In PvP/arena style ya, the spell is very important. Otherwise...not so much.


A spell that screws an entire character build? True Seeing?

What build does that destroy?

Kaihaku
2008-09-04, 05:23 AM
I spoke incorrectly. Not a built, a school of magic. An illusionist still has a great deal of options left to them...as does a Warlock.

BobVosh
2008-09-04, 05:45 AM
I spoke incorrectly. Not a built, a school of magic. An illusionist still has a great deal of options left to them...as does a Warlock.

Ah ok. Also I thought about it, and you can argue any build that starts with beguiler.

Belial_the_Leveler
2008-09-04, 06:13 AM
True Seeing doesn't reduce the effectiveness of an illusionist built around shadow spells-thy can take the effectiveness of shadow to 100%. True Seeing doesn't negate personal illusions if you use Nondetection. Especially Twinned Nondetection.

Person_Man
2008-09-04, 09:46 AM
Right, hence houserules about broken spells. Funny that Wrathstrike is the same level as Sure Strike, which gives a bonus of +1/3 levels and affects one attack. I'm fine with banning wraithstrike, and house ruling that one can't power attack on any touch attack.

I had players fell in love with touch attacks a while back. Then a rival band of adventurers heard how powerful they were and copied their tactics. They came to blows more then once, and the PCs were amazed at how susceptable they were to touch attacks. Then an a local archmage ruler from the city next door felt that things were getting too safe, and that it undercut his ability to rule through fear. Then they experienced what real magic was like...

Anywho, that's the long way of me saying that there are many ways to gain touch attacks in 3.5 D&D. Wraithstrike is just an obvious one. If PCs abuse it, let them have fun obliterating enemies for a while. Then put them on notice that even more powerful enemies are on their way to challenge them, specifically because of the tactics they use. It's like putting a bounty on a PC who can't be hurt because he wears impenetrable armor. Don't ban the armor. Just make sure he knows that people are hunting someone who wears impenetrable red dragon armor with a magical glow. Then he'll put it away for big combats, or have to invest resources in hiding it and deal with the occasional enemy who bypasses armor altogether.

Epinephrine
2008-09-04, 09:57 AM
I had players fell in love with touch attacks a while back. Then a rival band of adventurers heard how powerful they were and copied their tactics. They came to blows more then once, and the PCs were amazed at how susceptable they were to touch attacks.

Right, I can see how that's one solution, the way we prefer to do it is just head off problems by altering the spell/mechanic. If you wouldn't want to face enemies using it, it's probably too tough.