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Dark Knight Renee
2008-09-03, 01:12 PM
My sister was reading through the PHB a couple of days ago, and put forth the opinion that Intelligence is the new Charisma (that is to say, the first choice for a dump stat, chosen mainly for roleplaying value except for certain classes that are powered by it). I looked into it, but didn't find much to refute this idea.

In 4e, Intelligence...
• Is required for 4 feats, only 2 of which are even usable by characters of most classes.
• Can be used for AC and Reflex if it's higher than Dex.
• Is used for 3 skills, all of which are knowledge skills.
• Has a secondary effect on some Warlock and Warlord powers.
• Powers the Wizard class.

Am I missing something?

fractic
2008-09-03, 01:13 PM
Intelligence is the new charisma, i.e. the dumpstat.

Tengu_temp
2008-09-03, 01:18 PM
Of course, charisma is just as useful for many classes too.

That's my gripe with 4e, to be honest. They should fix it by making initiative use the highest from your Int and Dex, just like reflex and AC.

TwystidMynd
2008-09-03, 01:21 PM
Of course, charisma is just as useful for many classes too.

That's my gripe with 4e, to be honest. They should fix it by making initiative use the highest from your Int and Dex, just like reflex and AC.

IMO, sounds like a solid grounds for a houserule.

I'll probably add it to my repertoire, anyways.

Tengu_temp
2008-09-03, 01:23 PM
I also hope for tactical feats that require int. We have Power Attack, so why there's no Combat Expertise?

warmachine
2008-09-03, 01:30 PM
If your character isn't going to be the face or sage of the party and the class doesn't need them, dumping both INT and CHA is going to have little consequence. Double the powergamer scope over 3e!

Mastikator
2008-09-03, 01:35 PM
Skill-wise the Int stat is completely useless, since the knowledge checks don't really give you any useful knowledge other than fluff info (which is nice, but mechanically useless).
An insight bonus vs the type enemy you've passed the knowledge check against that you can only use once per individual enemy. Like taking advantage of their flaws, or anticipating their next move.

Yakk
2008-09-03, 01:45 PM
Success: You identify a creature as well as its type, typical temperament, and keywords. Higher results give you information about the creature’s powers, resistances, and vulnerabilities.

Monster Knowledge DC
Name, type, and keywords 15
Powers 20
Resistances and vulnerabilities 25
Paragon tier creature +5
Epic tier creature +10

That's a hell of a lot of information you gain from a simple Knowledge check.

Erk
2008-09-03, 01:49 PM
Plenty of attributes can be dump stats now. Wizards and warlocks and ranged-rangers, for example, can dump Str completely if they have a decent Con. Heck, one could probably make a low-Str cha-based paladin too. It's class based. Int is used by Wizards, warlords, and warlocks, and for a decent number of skills, so it's not that much of a dump.

Having it affect Init would be a good idea though, I don't like that assymetry either. It basically makes Int into Dex's redheaded stepchild.

Tengu_temp
2008-09-03, 01:52 PM
low-Str cha-based paladin

That's actually the default build for a tanking paladin.

Larrin
2008-09-03, 03:39 PM
Wis, Cha and int are about equal in dump statishness, none of them have a generic mechanics impact in the same way Str (melee) dex (ranged) and con (hitpoints) do. They only impact their specific are skills. Defenses might mean you don't dump both Wis and Cha for the sake of will, but if you were making a generic, classless (no powers) character the mental stats are pretty low on the totem pole of usefulness and physical stats pretty darn important.

Thus if you're character class doesn't call for a mental stat, you can usually dump it. Int has it the worst since Cha and Wis compete with eachother for will defense (and maybe wis pulls ahead for passive perception/insight scores), but it isn't much less.

So int took a hit from 3e, it doesn't pump your skill points anymore. But other than that one thing (granted its pretty big) Int has gained some versatility. More classes use it as part of their mechanics and it can replace dex for ac/reflex. Since skills are broader and access to them is easier, its almost of fair trade IMHOYMMVF'tang!

Saph
2008-09-03, 06:36 PM
As several people have said, Int is the new dump stat, ranking below even Charisma. It's worse for Int, because it has to compete with Dex, which drives your initiative rolls and ranged basic attacks.

Wizards need Int. Warlocks and Warlords want their Int to be okayish, but can get away without much of it. For the other five classes, Int is a waste of ability points. As long as there's one guy with a decent Int score in a group to do the rituals, you can get by just fine with a party of dumb guys. :)

- Saph

Starbuck_II
2008-09-03, 07:28 PM
For the other five classes, Int is a waste of ability points. As long as there's one guy with a decent Int score in a group to do the rituals, you can get by just fine with a party of dumb guys. :)

- Saph

Sounds like most of my 3rd edition adventuring parties actually. At least the way they acted.

Oracle_Hunter
2008-09-03, 08:28 PM
Wizards need Int. Warlocks and Warlords want their Int to be okayish, but can get away without much of it. For the other five classes, Int is a waste of ability points. As long as there's one guy with a decent Int score in a group to do the rituals, you can get by just fine with a party of dumb guys. :)

I wouldn't underestimate Jack of All Trades. +2 to everything you're not trained in is a pretty good deal for, say, a Fighter who only gets 3 Trained Skills. Also, Tactical Warlords really benefit from Wizard-esque INT levels, since the bonuses they hand out are so widely applicable.

But yeah, that aside, INT is only really important if you're a scholar (Knowledge Checks) or a ritualist - par for the course for fantasy heroes, I'd say :smallbiggrin:

Person_Man
2008-09-03, 10:15 PM
I've always felt that a good distribution would be:

Str: To-Hit with melee, bonus to damage, carrying capacity, determines what armor you can wear, bonus to Str based Skills.

Dex: To-Hit with ranged, bonus to Initiative, bonus to Ref Def, required for Mobility/Dodge like feats, bonus to Dex based Skills.

Con: Bonus to starting hit points, bonus to Fort Def, determines # of healing surges per day, bonus to Con based Skills.

Int: Bonus to # of trained and/or focused Skills, determines # of languages, required for Skill and Combat Expertise like feats, bonus to Int based Skills.

Wis: Bonus to Will Def, bonus to opportunity attacks, bonus to AC against opportunity attacks, required for Monk-ish Stunning and Kai feats (when they come out), bonus to Wis based Skills.

Cha: Bonus Action Points, bonus to Def vs. Fear effects, required for any social feats, bonus to Cha based Skills.

But that's just me.

Oracle_Hunter
2008-09-03, 10:25 PM
Me? I'm glad Wizards no longer need to also be ballerinas.

With INT giving a bonus to AC, Wizards can still survive in combat (and as adventurers, that's where they'll be) without also having to be graceful. Heck, most of my Light Armor Casters use INT and dump DEX because they're not going to be very stealthy, but INT gives nice bonuses to Knowledge checks, which are usually class skills.

Knaight
2008-09-03, 10:47 PM
Monster Knowledge DC
Name, type, and keywords 15
Powers 20
Resistances and vulnerabilities 25
Paragon tier creature +5
Epic tier creature +10

That's a hell of a lot of information you gain from a simple Knowledge check.

A bit off topic, but this has always bothered me. Why is is that a legendary monster that probably often appears in legends, that every kid should know about harder to know about? Not knowing much about some of the more obscure lower level monsters that don't show up often makes sense, not knowing about the abilities of a dragon that obliterated half a kingdom doesn't.

AmberVael
2008-09-03, 11:10 PM
A bit off topic, but this has always bothered me. Why is is that a legendary monster that probably often appears in legends, that every kid should know about harder to know about? Not knowing much about some of the more obscure lower level monsters that don't show up often makes sense, not knowing about the abilities of a dragon that obliterated half a kingdom doesn't.

Frankly, the monster that killed half a kingdom may be talked about more frequently, but you're going to know less about it because of all the false legends and tales spread about it. You may know things, but who says they are the RIGHT things?
The more deadly the creature, the less likely someone lives to tell exactly how it kills and works.

The New Bruceski
2008-09-03, 11:18 PM
A bit off topic, but this has always bothered me. Why is is that a legendary monster that probably often appears in legends, that every kid should know about harder to know about? Not knowing much about some of the more obscure lower level monsters that don't show up often makes sense, not knowing about the abilities of a dragon that obliterated half a kingdom doesn't.

That's where situation modifiers come in. I'd rule a legendary beast with a well-known weakness (assuming it's accurate) to grand at least a +10 on related checks.

The Demented One
2008-09-03, 11:22 PM
Monster Knowledge DC
Name, type, and keywords 15
Powers 20
Resistances and vulnerabilities 25
Paragon tier creature +5
Epic tier creature +10

That's a hell of a lot of information you gain from a simple Knowledge check.
http://1d4chan.org/images/7/7d/Bear_lore.png

That information...may not be that useful.

Orzel
2008-09-03, 11:22 PM
4e went the opposite way with stats. Most games try to make each stat important which creates a dumpstat via the least important one.
4e made each stat weak so the only important stats are the ones you use all the time.


STR and CON are top tier for Fort and their secondary. STR affects oppy attacks and Con surges. Next is DEX/INT for 2 defenses. Finally the last two for Will.


I forget the ability needs of the sword mages but I think ability importance will be linked to power soirce (STR/DEX martial, INT/CON arcane, STR/WIS divine...)

Dhavaer
2008-09-03, 11:50 PM
I forget the ability needs of the sword mages but I think ability importance will be niked to power soirce (STR/DEX martial, INT/CON arcane, STR/WIS divine...)

Swordmages need Int/Str or Int/Con.

Starsinger
2008-09-04, 01:04 AM
As several people have said, Int is the new dump stat, ranking below even Charisma. It's worse for Int, because it has to compete with Dex, which drives your initiative rolls and ranged basic attacks.

Wizards need Int. Warlocks and Warlords want their Int to be okayish, but can get away without much of it. For the other five classes, Int is a waste of ability points. As long as there's one guy with a decent Int score in a group to do the rituals, you can get by just fine with a party of dumb guys. :)

- Saph

I question why int is worse off than Charisma. Perception and Insight (your passive skills) vs. "Party Face time" I mean, atleast Int has auxillary purpose.

Colmarr
2008-09-04, 01:27 AM
OK, I'm curious about this so I put together some lists.

I've left feats off, because they're of varying utility to different characters.

Strength: Basic melee attack, basic melee damage, basic ranged attack and damage with heavy thrown weapons, carrying capacity, Fort, Athletics, bull rush, escape from grab. Cleric primary, cleric secondary, Fighter primary, Paladin primary, paladin secondary, ranger primary, ranger secondary, rogue secondary, warlord primary.

Constitution:: Hit points, # of healing surges, Fort, Endurance. Fighter secondary, Warlock primary, warlock secondary.

Dexterity: Basic ranged attack, basic ranged damage (except heavy thrown weapons), AC in light armour, Reflex, initiative, Acrobatics, Stealth, Thievery, escape from grab. Fighter secondary, ranger primary, ranger secondary, rogue primary, wizard secondary.

Intelligence: AC in light armour, Reflex, Arcana, History, Religion, some rituals. Warlord secondary, warlock secondary, wizard primary.

Wisdom: Will, Dungeoneering, Heal, Insight, Nature, Perception, some rituals. Cleric primary, fighter secondary, paladin secondary, ranger secondary, wizard secondary.

Charisma: Will, Bluff, Diplomacy, Intimidate, Streetwise. Cleric secondary, rogue secondary, warlord secondary, warlock primary, warlock secondary, wizard secondary.

On the basis of that list, it seems to me that unless you use it for a class power Charisma is the new Charisma. I'd even go so far as to say that Wisdom is possibly less generally desirable than Intelligence.

The fact that attack attributes vary from class to class has done a lot to get rid of the "dump stat problem" (by which I am referring to one particular ability being of extremely low utility to almost all PCs). Intelligence is of limited use to many classes that are currently available, but it's still a perfectly viable choice for your Ref buff stat if you don't want to be a sneaky/dextrous character or if you want to favour the knowledge skills.

I think there's actually a valid argument to be run that Con is the new dump stat!

P.S. Feel free to point out any general uses I missed.

EDIT: Added relevance to class powers.

MammonAzrael
2008-09-04, 01:32 AM
I question why int is worse off than Charisma. Perception and Insight (your passive skills) vs. "Party Face time" I mean, atleast Int has auxillary purpose.

Umm...Insight and Perception are affected by WIS, not INT.

Intelligence affects:


AC and Reflex defense (if higher than DEX)
Some Warlock and Warlord powers
Most Wizard powers
Arcana, History, and Religion skills
Burning Blizzard, Improved Misty Step, Jack of All Trades, Linguist, and Arcane Initiate feats
And one Magical Orb


Did I miss anything? I don't think so.

ColdSepp
2008-09-04, 01:34 AM
Swordmage abilities.

OneFamiliarFace
2008-09-04, 01:41 AM
I think there's actually a valid argument to be run that Con is the new dump stat!

P.S. Feel free to point out any general uses I missed.

I think the only thing you missed was that I'm pretty sure strength is used for ranged attacks with heavy thrown weapons and not just damage.

I wouldn't go so far as to say Con is the new dumpstat, but it is more viable to have low now, since your hp at every level is not affected by it. Before, you just couldn't afford a low Con score if you wanted to survive for more than a round. Now your hp after 1st are fixed.

Still, the only time I can see someone wanting to dump it is if they have a high strength, but since every class with high strength is a frontliner, you will probably also want to have a high Con too.

I also think that looking at the classes is important. I agree with you that Int being a dump stat for a Cleric doesn't make it a dump stat overall. But in 3.x, one of the reasons Cha was laughable was because it only really affected Bards and Sorcerors with an almost unnoticeable effect on Clerics and Paladins, and then it was useless to almost every other class, period. Now Charisma can be a primary or secondary stat for Cleric, Paladin, Rogue, Warlock, and Warlord, leaving only the Fighter, Ranger, and Wizard with no uses for it, but they get uses for Wisdom instead.

The argument against Int is that pretty much any class who doesn't need it for their powers would be better off taking Dex instead, which isn't true of Wisdom (but is still probably true of Charisma).

Still, I would argue that there are some pretty neat wizard MCs to be had when you don't absolutely need Dex (light armord Fighters, TWF Rangers, tactical Warlords etc.).

Starsinger
2008-09-04, 01:41 AM
I was comparing Wisdom and Charisma since they compete for your will defense. I'm of the mind that Charisma is still the dump stat in D&D.

Colmarr
2008-09-04, 01:53 AM
I think the only thing you missed was that I'm pretty sure strength is used for ranged attacks with heavy thrown weapons and not just damage.

Thanks. Edited to include it.


I also think that looking at the classes is important.

I agree and went back and edited my post to include this issue while you were typing your post.


The argument against Int is that pretty much any class who doesn't need it for their powers would be better off taking Dex instead

I understand the logic behind this argument but I think it assumes a level of objectivity that doesn't actually exist in a roleplaying game. Dex certainly has more combat uses than intelligence, but it isn't hard to come up with a character concept that has next to no use for Dex but would appreciate some Intelligence. In fact I'm playing one now - a Stength Cleric. He uses Javelins (Str) or Cleric powers (Wis) for ranged attacks and has no interest in the Dex-based skills. Conversely, Religion (Int) is a key skill for him and his ability to use one of his class features (ritual casting) is dependant almost entirely on it.

I personally think that the only real justification for saying that Int is "the dump stat" is that none of the weapon group have Int as a linked stat (my personal choice would have been picks, flails, or light blades).

random11
2008-09-04, 02:06 AM
Skill-wise the Int stat is completely useless, since the knowledge checks don't really give you any useful knowledge other than fluff info (which is nice, but mechanically useless).
An insight bonus vs the type enemy you've passed the knowledge check against that you can only use once per individual enemy. Like taking advantage of their flaws, or anticipating their next move.

Doesn't knowledge checks depend more on the GM than on the game rules?
There are many ways a good GM can "torture" ignorant characters...

Colmarr
2008-09-04, 02:10 AM
Doesn't knowledge checks depend more on the GM than on the game rules?

No more than the Athletics skill relies on the DM to set reasonable DCs.

The 4e knowledge rules are every bit as concrete as the physical skills. See Yakk's post (#8). I LOVE the new knowledge skills rules. They fit very well into an exception-based game framework.

To give a more insightful example:

The party encounters a Young White Dragon. Nature checks reveal the following information:

DC 15: It's a young white dragon, a natural magical beast.

DC 20: It has the Bite, Claw, Dragon's Fury, Breath Weapon, Bloodied Breath and Frightful Presence powers.

DC 25: It has resist 15 cold.

The only thing that is really up to the DM is exactly how much the PCs learn about the creature's powers and resistances. Obviously it's not enough to know that there is a power called "Dragon's Fury". The only real decision to make is whether the PC knows that:

Dragon's Fury allows the Dragon to claw twice and bite if it hits the same target with both claws

OR that

Dragon's Fury is "(standard; at-will) The dragon makes two claw attacks. If the dragon hits a single target with both claws, it makes a bite attack against the same target", that the claw attacks are "(standard; at-will) Reach 2; +6 vs. AC; 1d8 + 4 damage." and that the Bite attack is "(standard; at-will) ✦ Cold Reach 2; +6 vs. AC; 1d8 + 4 plus 1d6 cold damage (plus an extra 1d6 cold damage on a successful opportunity attack)".

Regardless of which way your DM goes, a knowledge skill can be a MASSIVE tactical advantage if your players can control themselves and not study the monster manual.

OneFamiliarFace
2008-09-04, 02:59 AM
I personally think that the only real justification for saying that Int is "the dump stat" is that none of the weapon group have Int as a linked stat (my personal choice would have been picks, flails, or light blades).

Oh, I agree entirely. I was just under the impression that a 'dump stat,' is one that is the least useful to the most people for rules purposes.

I think that a good houserule though would be to have Int apply to Initiative (superior planning or forethought or something like that), like someone said above. As it currently not doing so only really matters for the warlord and the wizard, who will both help the party by going earlier, so it's all good. (Indeed, in the wizard's case, the party may often decide to wait for him to cast his first spell.) That way, it can always be taken as an effective substitute for Dex by any class who doesn't need Dex as a primary or secondary stat, which doesn't effect roleplaying it either way.

This is feasible because, in addition to applying to initiative, Dex's skills are arguably quite a bit more useful than Int's. Acrobatics, Stealth, and Thievery will be among the most commonly used skills in most games purely based on the wide range of situations to which they all apply.

random11
2008-09-04, 05:38 AM
No more than the Athletics skill relies on the DM to set reasonable DCs.

The 4e knowledge rules are every bit as concrete as the physical skills. See Yakk's post (#8). I LOVE the new knowledge skills rules. They fit very well into an exception-based game framework.


Does it also have exact rules on things outside combat?
General knowledge about things like information about a place, important NPCs (info, not stats), knowledge skills that can give plot related hints etc.

Saph
2008-09-04, 07:58 AM
I question why int is worse off than Charisma. Perception and Insight (your passive skills) vs. "Party Face time" I mean, atleast Int has auxillary purpose.

I'm judging it by number of classes. Int is necessary for Wizards and useful for Warlords and Warlocks. Cha is necessary for Paladins and Warlocks and useful for Warlords, Clerics, and Rogues. But Wizards also need a Cha of 13 if they want the Spell Focus feat, which is one of the best picks in the Paragon tier.

So for Int, 5 out of 8 classes can dump it without a second thought, while for Cha only 2 classes can dump it without a second thought. That's why I think Int now ranks even below Cha on the dumpability scale. :)

- Saph

Artanis
2008-09-04, 01:32 PM
Since the discussion seems to be whether INT is useful for people whose powers don't use it, here's the way I look at it:

It looks more to me like almost everything is "the new Charisma" when viewed in this light. In 3e, if your powers didn't need them, then CHA was useless for everybody except the Face and STR was useless for casters. Everybody wanted DEX (for init and hitting stuff at range), CON (for surviving), INT (for skill points), and WIS (for Will saves).

In 4e, the stats mostly have relatively minor effects outside of power usage. All of them have their relevant skills, of course, and each "pair" (i.e. WIS+CHA) has the higher one add to defense. The only two stats with any other inherent, non-power effects are CON and DEX, with the former adding to survivability and the latter adding to init. Even CON's effect is drastically lessened from 3e (though still plenty important).

So yes, if your powers call for plenty of DEX, you can dump INT. But once you've got all your power-related stats filled out, whatever's left - which oftentimes won't be a hell of a lot - will go to CON and then DEX. Maybe. Or it might go to CHA/WIS to get that WILL defense up.

Basically, what I'm trying to say is that before, there were four stats that you did NOT want to "dump" if you could at all help it. Now, there's four stats that are prime dump-stat fodder, and two others that can usually be dumped without too terrible of consequences (somewhat like 3e INT was).

MartinHarper
2008-09-04, 01:46 PM
The "Bear Lore" in the Monster Manual is in addition to knowing the bear's Powers and such, not instead of.

Yakk
2008-09-04, 02:48 PM
A bit off topic, but this has always bothered me. Why is is that a legendary monster that probably often appears in legends, that every kid should know about harder to know about? Not knowing much about some of the more obscure lower level monsters that don't show up often makes sense, not knowing about the abilities of a dragon that obliterated half a kingdom doesn't.
Because everyone who fought it died, and there are lots and lots of false tales about it?

Colmarr
2008-09-04, 06:08 PM
Does it also have exact rules on things outside combat?

General knowledge about things like information about a place, important NPCs (info, not stats), knowledge skills that can give plot related hints etc.

The PHB has rules for three levels of out-of-combat knowledge. The exact names escape me (I'm AFB) but they are something like common, expert and master. DC for heroic IIRC are 10, 15 and 20.

So a DC10 history check would allow your character to remember common facts about a subject.

Eg. The king's name is Stefan. His wife is Melanthe. They have a son, prince Eddard. The king's father was Magnus, but he died before you were born.

A DC15 check would allow your character to remember expert knowledge.

Eg. King Stefan was born in 1433, making him 46 years old. He and Melanthe have been married for 23 years. Eddard is 19 years old and is currently betrothed to a duchess from Cormyr. King Magnus died in 1456 during the Winter Insurgency.

A DC20 check allows your character to remember master-level knowledge.

Eg. Eddard was not Stefan and Melanthe's first child. An illegitimate daughter was conceived but the pregnancy did not run to term. The pregnancy caused a great diplomatic storm, that was only resolved when Magnus (with the agreement of Melanthe's parents) forced the two to marry.

The rules for knowledge are as precise and concrete as rules for such a wide-ranging topic can be.

Blackfang108
2008-09-05, 02:21 PM
Intelligence is the new charisma, i.e. the dumpstat.

If you're viewing INT as a dumpstat, it probably was...

No offense or anything, just, INT is never a dumpstat. (except for Barbarians)

Especially for Wizards, Tactical Warlords, and Warlocks of all shapes and sizes.

Mando Knight
2008-09-05, 07:26 PM
No offense or anything, just, INT is never a dumpstat. (except for Barbarians)

That's in 3.5. In 4E, a Paladin can get away without boosting his Int. Ever. (However, without rolling stats, the worst his Int can be at level 21+ is 10...) So can the Fighter, the Ranger, Rogue, Inspiring Warlord, and (if not casting Arcane Rituals) Cleric.