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View Full Version : What's wrong with Truenamers?



Flickerdart
2008-09-03, 03:56 PM
When I read the Tome of Magic, the Truenamer is the only class that stood out to me as being a caster (which I love to play) that was nevertheless different from the usual Wizard overpowered cheese. I've never had a chance to play one, but on paper there's nothing wrong with them. High versatility because every saying works twice, that "research true name" thing that sounds like loads of fun...
But I keep hearing they suck. And not just Monk suck, but super-unplayable suck. A caster, suck? Even Fighters are playable. Someone explain this to me.

hamishspence
2008-09-03, 03:58 PM
skill check ranks just do not advance fast enough to keep up with monsters HD, as far as I remember.

NEO|Phyte
2008-09-03, 03:59 PM
IIRC, the problem is that the DC of your truename checks scale faster than you can increase your modifier, requiring MASSIVE optimization to be effective at high level.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-09-03, 04:00 PM
Look at the mechanic for determining Truename DCs. Then look at how many resources you can invest in it. Without a Custom item of +X that takes all of your WBL, you won't make it. At first level, you have 4 ranks, a +4 Int, and +3 from Skill Focus. It's a DC 16. You're fine there. At 5th level, you have 8 ranks, a +5 Int, +3 from skill focus, and no shot of making the DC. See the problem?

insecure
2008-09-03, 04:03 PM
Look at the mechanic for determining Truename DCs. Then look at how many resources you can invest in it. Without a Custom item of +X that takes all of your WBL, you won't make it. At first level, you have 4 ranks, a +4 Int, and +3 from Skill Focus. It's a DC 16. You're fine there. At 5th level, you have 8 ranks, a +5 Int, +3 from skill focus, and no shot of making the DC. See the problem?

You can always homebrew/tweak things.:smallwink:

Kyeudo
2008-09-03, 04:03 PM
They arn't a true caster. Think more along the lines of Warlock than Wizard.

The problem is the mechanical basis of the class. It involves making a skill check of DC 15+ (2 x CR) of whatever you are trying to affect. At first level, this isn't so bad. It's usually DC 17. At level 20, however, its DC 55.

Your skill modifier at that level, if you maxed the skill and have a 36 Int is going to be +36. That means you need to roll a natural 19 or better to affect anything with an Utterance.

If you take feats and get an Amulet of the Silver Tongue to improve that skill check further, you can make each of your utterances work once or twice a day, but you can't do anything near what a Warlock can do.

AstralFire
2008-09-03, 04:04 PM
You can always homebrew/tweak things.:smallwink:

While this is true, the level at which you have to adjust custom items in order to accomodate a truenamer is ludicrous.

Flickerdart
2008-09-03, 04:06 PM
Wow. That's the laziest playtesting I've ever seen, to let something like this slide by. Thanks, guys. The new system isn't bad for making this work, though...I'll keep hoping.

Spiryt
2008-09-03, 04:08 PM
You can always homebrew/tweak things.:smallwink:

Well, you can do it with just everything, for that matter. :smallwink:

Kyeudo
2008-09-03, 04:08 PM
You can always homebrew/tweak things.:smallwink:

Thank heavens for Rule 0. It is the only thing that could make the Truenamer playable.

I houserule the DC from 15 + (2 x CR) to 15 + Utterance Level + CR. It changes the lvl 20 DCs from DC 55 to DC 41. That makes things much more playable, and makes lower level Utterances still worth something at high levels.

hamishspence
2008-09-03, 04:09 PM
15 + CR rather than 15 + 2xCR: would that break in the opposite direction around high level?

Akimbo
2008-09-03, 04:10 PM
When I read the Tome of Magic, the Truenamer is the only class that stood out to me as being a caster (which I love to play) that was nevertheless different from the usual Wizard overpowered cheese. I've never had a chance to play one, but on paper there's nothing wrong with them. High versatility because every saying works twice, that "research true name" thing that sounds like loads of fun...
But I keep hearing they suck. And not just Monk suck, but super-unplayable suck. A caster, suck? Even Fighters are playable. Someone explain this to me.

1) They get 1 "saying" at every level. That's not versatile at all, especially when Higher level ones are just carbon copies of low ones with the numbers increased.

2) Look through those sayings, do you see any save or sucks? Or just sucks? Of course you don't. They can't do anything because all their spells suck.

3) It's based on a Skillcheck, the DC is 15+CRx2.

So if you want to use something on a level 1 Fighter, you have to make a DC 17 check. If you then want to use that saying again, you have to make a DC 19 check.

A level 1 Truenamer has a highly optimized check of +4 ranks, +3 skill focus, +4-5 Int. So he has a 75% of even getting to cast the spell.

At level 15, he has a check of +11 Int (this is probably better then he really has) +18 ranks +10 item + 3 skill focus. That's +32

The DC to affect a CR 15 creature is 45. So he has a 65% chance of flat out failing to do anything. If the creature has spell resistance the check goes up to 50 and he has a 10% of even affecting that creature.

And that's the first time he tries, the second tim he wants to use that invocation it's DC 47 or 52.

The only way a Truenamer is even playable is with an Item Familiar and effectively gaining two ranks in Truespeak at every level.

You'll still feel the pinch from your very limited choice of essences and how crappy the ones you do choose are, but you can at least cast spells with a 100% success rate a couple times a day before you have to switch to something else or start failing.

mabriss lethe
2008-09-03, 04:11 PM
15 + CR rather than 15 + 2xCR: would that break in the opposite direction around high level?

Not really, since none of the utterances are particularly powerful in the first place.

insecure
2008-09-03, 04:13 PM
Thank heavens for Rule 0. It is the only thing that could make the Truenamer playable.

I houserule the DC from 15 + (2 x CR) to 15 + Utterance Level + CR. It changes the lvl 20 DCs from DC 55 to DC 41. That makes things much more playable, and makes lower level Utterances still worth something at high levels.

I'll do that too. Or convince the DM to let me find some kind of item lying around that gives a massive bonus to said skill check.

Eldariel
2008-09-03, 04:20 PM
The best way to use them is to pick up Item Familiar on level 6 and double your True Speech. With that, you can generally keep up with the DCs. Of course, before that, you still need Motivate Int-aura, Skill Focus and so on to hit the DCs on level 1 consistently. And the payoff isn't amazing either... I really feel they misbuilt the mechanic - it should be part of the other characters and an area of study rather than a class mechanic of its own. Stuff like figuring out the true names of some big bads to defeat seemingly unbeatable opponents, studying true speech to empower language-dependant effects and so on.

Jimp
2008-09-03, 04:21 PM
Would adding the Truenamer's class level or half class level to the check help balance it out?

Eldariel
2008-09-03, 04:23 PM
Yes, definitely. The easier way is just to halve the DC (by making it 15+CR rather than 15+CR*2) than to double the effective True Speech for a Truenamer though, since otherwise the True Speech-abilities will be effectively useless for the other classes.

monty
2008-09-03, 04:38 PM
How to make an effective Truenaming character, in 4 easy steps:

1. Take at least 8 levels in Factotum, put max ranks in Truenaming.
2. Make a Truenaming check, and probably fail it (just like a regular Truenamer!).
3. Use Cunning Surge, and do something productive instead.
4. Repeat steps 2 and 3 until you figure out that Truenaming sucks, and you should stop trying to do it.

The best part is, you'll never waste a turn! (Well, unless you run out of Inspiration)

monty
2008-09-03, 04:40 PM
I'll do that too. Or convince the DM to let me find some kind of item lying around that gives a massive bonus to said skill check.

Going by the creation guidelines, a custom item of Truenaming +30 would cost you 90,000 gp (100 x bonus^2), which if I remember right is the most you can get without an epic item. If you don't have that much, go with a smaller bonus.

Flickerdart
2008-09-03, 04:52 PM
Thanks for answering the question in concise and perfect detail, Monty. It's people like you that make people love these forums. :smallfrown:

CthulhuM
2008-09-03, 05:20 PM
The skill checks are actually quite manageable, with an item, and skill bonus items are ridiculously cheap relative to other magic bonuses. 90k for a +30 item isn't really that big a deal at the levels you need it, and the same goes for 40k for a +20 or 10k for a +10. Optimize right and keep upgrading your skill item and you should be able to use all of your utterances several times a day with little to no chance of failure by the time you hit 5th or 6th level.

Of course, you'll still suck. The utterances just aren't that good. Even the ones you get at high levels can be easily topped by a 2nd or 3rd level spell in most cases.

Emperor Tippy
2008-09-03, 05:49 PM
If you want to make Truenamers not suck make all their utterances No SR (at a minimum) and your better off with all of them being No save, No SR, and redoing the skill check DC's (DC 15+CR+Utterance level works pretty well).

Chronos
2008-09-03, 05:56 PM
It should be noted, at least, that the Amulet of the Silver Tongue gives an enhancement bonus, not a competence bonus like almost all other skill boosters. So if you also make a custom item that gives a competence bonus, they'll stack.

Still, though, when a class needs two different specific items to function, one of which is homebrewed, there's something wrong.

Edea
2008-09-03, 06:00 PM
I'm surprised utterances don't have base DCs unique to each of them (one might be DC 15, another might be DC 19, yet another may be a mere DC 10); then, you could make -those- values go up by +2 for every time they've used them past the first. Perhaps bookkeeping? In any case, I'm just not getting why they made the checks CR-dependant, since CR itself is a very subjective system (and 2 x CR? Wha...?).

Rei_Jin
2008-09-03, 06:02 PM
I actually had a Truenamer in a homegame, and he was very effective. We didn't adjust the mechanics at all, and he was regularly able to hit his DCs. He only started failing them when he had used the same one several times in the same day.

Of course, this is only my experience with them. I personally quite like the class, I think it's got awesome roleplay potential and uses an idea from fantasy fiction that I've always loved (Words of power).

I'd love to play a gestalt game with a Truenamer//Bard

Edge of Dreams
2008-09-03, 06:14 PM
I ran a game where a player played a Truename from level 5 to 7. I changed the DC's to 10+ (1.5 * CR) and that worked pretty well. I also allowed Amulet of Silver tongue or whatever it's called be purchased in versions ranging from +1 to +10, with appropriately scaling cost. The Truenamer in that game was clearly not amazing, but since we had no other dedicated spellcasters that wasn't really an issue. He provided a lot of healing to the party, as well as some significant save-or-suck with an utterance that imposes the Dazed condition combined with Extend Utterance to knock a single enemy out of the fight for 3 rounds at a time (will save to negate).

Truenamer will never stand up to Batman wizards, duh, but with a DC adjustment and a party that isn't optimization obsessed, they can definitely be playable.

Sinfire Titan
2008-09-03, 06:40 PM
The only way a Truenamer is even playable is with an Item Familiar and effectively gaining two ranks in Truespeak at every level.

This is the proper way to make a Truenamer. You need the Item Familiar feat in order to be playable, and you have to make sure everything you do goes into your skill checks. However, you can completely neglect your Charisma score, provided you never use the utterances with saves attached (most of the first Lexicon offers no save to resist).

Starbuck_II
2008-09-03, 06:45 PM
I actually had a Truenamer in a homegame, and he was very effective. We didn't adjust the mechanics at all, and he was regularly able to hit his DCs. He only started failing them when he had used the same one several times in the same day.

Of course, this is only my experience with them. I personally quite like the class, I think it's got awesome roleplay potential and uses an idea from fantasy fiction that I've always loved (Words of power).

I'd love to play a gestalt game with a Truenamer//Bard

What levels? Because that is hard to believe unless he optimized the crap at higher levels.

Rei_Jin
2008-09-03, 06:48 PM
He picked the character up at level 8, and we finished the campaign at level 14. He was one of only two players characters who didn't die (we were playing Shackled City and I ended it due to RL constraints)

Inhuman Bot
2008-09-03, 06:50 PM
I hope you mean charcters :smalleek:

Also, I haven't had much time with the ToM. What are the truenaming abilites? (as they aren't quite spells)

Sinfire Titan
2008-09-03, 06:51 PM
I hope you mean charcters :smalleek:

Also, I haven't had much time with the ToM. What are the truenaming abilites? (as they aren't quite spells)

SLAs that trigger off of a skill check. Most of them have a duration of one to 5 rounds, but the effects vary. The entire first list of effects they get have two effects per utterance, so it is like learning two spells at once.

Starbuck_II
2008-09-03, 06:58 PM
I hope you mean charcters :smalleek:

He said he had RL constraints so that totally fit the description of like dead players.


Also, I haven't had much time with the ToM. What are the truenaming abilites? (as they aren't quite spells)

They are Utterances: basically sayings that access True Language of Universe. Reality reshapes itself to accomodate this language (which sadly sounds better than the effects).

Rei_Jin
2008-09-03, 07:04 PM
I should have said characters, but at the same time several of the players went through multiple characters in that time.

Shackled City is deadly, and a monk and a truenamer were the only survivors

AstralFire
2008-09-03, 07:12 PM
Monk doesn't surprise me. Monk is actually a very good class, provided you are in a situation where everything is trying to kill you and you are somehow able to make sure they're more focused on trying to kill you than anyone else. They can't do the latter very well, but I suppose if no one else survives, it works by default.

Person_Man
2008-09-03, 08:11 PM
As many others have mentioned, its not that hard to use as long as your DM allows Unearthed Arcana:

Ranks from levels: 23
Int bonus (+10ish by lvl 20 with Headband of Intellect)
Skill Focus +3
Item Familiar (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/itemFamiliars.htm) (up to +23 at level 20)
Exemplar +4 comp bonus and ability to Take 10
Marshal = Cha bonus (+10ish morale bonus by lvl 20 with a Cloak of Charisma)
Greater Amulet of the Silver Tongue (+10 enhancement)

23 + 10ish + 3 + 23 + 4 + 10ish + 10 + 10 = 93ish

And that's without any spells from you or your friends (lots of options), or a long line of +1 bonuses from a half a dozen sources (luck stone, ioun stone, etc). It takes 3 class levels, and one or two feats, and a huge pile of gp. So it's certainly doable for a human, without any custom magic items. You could even dump expensive magic items all together and just go Wizard 1/Truenamer 19, and still end up with a reasonable 50 to 70 check. Exemplar also opens up the Nanobots option, if you're wiling to invest a few more levels in it and your DM is crazy.

Now, I fully admit that you shouldn't have to use variant rules in order to make a class playable. And if he ever loses his Item Familiar he is totally boned. But there you go.

Flickerdart
2008-09-03, 08:20 PM
Ooh, a playable truenamer. Person_Man, you get a cookie. Although if the abilities aren't that good, it may just all be a waste, but I like the fluff.