Adjustment levels, a stab at LA that might just work.

[Norr]

Why Basic LA Sucks More Than It Should:
Everyone knows that level adjustments, though necessary, could have been done better.
An adventurer has a CR equal to its character level, which means two adventurers of the same levels should have a 50/50 chance of winning. An Aranea has a CR of 4, but an ECL of 7. This means an unmodified aranea played as a PC (3HD magical beast) is considered the same CR as an NPC aranea with three additional class levels. How does this work? And don't even start me on illithids.

This is partly because, when you take a peek in Savage Species, you will see that many of the evaluations that serve as a base for LA is not actually based on HD or levels. If you are a 1st level commoner with fly speed (average) or better, you get +1 LA. If you are a 10th level wizard and have fly speed (average), you get a +1 LA, despite having a spell for that sort of thing since 5th level.
Having more attacks than a fighter of the same level is LA+1. This is based on HD and therefore scale with creature HD in most cases, but spell resistance is worth +1 LA or higher, regardless of the amount, scaling or not.

The above is somewhat simplified and therefore not accurate in every little detail, but it gets the general idea across.

There's two steps to fixing such problems.
One: redefine level adjustments. I will do this by making a special kind of HD: the Adjustment Level (creative huh?).
Two: change the way you assign level adjustments.

The Idea:
The idea behind the AL is that all creatures with LA lack staying power. Hit points are in some cases (succubi, illithids, aranea etc) equal to or less than half of a similar character without LA. A 6HD illithid is no match for a 15th level monk, but if that same illithid was a PC it is suddenly considered an equal match, despite having only 44 hp versus the monks 82 hp (with 12 CON, same as illithid). Similarly, that illithid would have 4BAB versus the monks 11 BAB. Sure, the illithid have some cool abilities, but they aint worth a rotten lingonberry if your opponent keeps laughing at your low DCs and accuracy.

The Adjustment Level
This is what I propose for the Adjustment level:
Adjustment levels replace LA on a one-for-one basis. An aranea (+4 LA) would have 4 AL and no LA.
Adjustment levels are like regular HD or character levels, with a few changes. For an easy-to understand analogy (I know I need one right now) think of the adjustment levels as a n'th level base class with the following features.

HD+HP: The amount of HP gained each adjustment level is equal to half the maximum hp gained from the base creatures HD (D8 for humanoids, aberrations, animal etc. D12 for undead and dragons) rounded down -0,5 and rounded down again. Therefore an aranea (+4 AL, D8 HD) would gain (8/2-0,5)*4=14 hp due to its adjustment levels (total 35 for CON 14 at ECL 7). HP bonus from a high constitution score is ½ CON bonus/AL, rounded down, for hp gained from adjustment levels.*
*Example: A Sahuagin has 2 HD, 2 LA and 12 CON. As a monster it has 2D8+2 (avg 11) hp. As a player character, that same Sahuagin would have 2d8+2 + ((8/2-0,5)*2)+1 (avg 19) hp. Note that a PC sahuagin is supposed to be a CR 4 threat, and NPC sahuagin are CR 2.

BAB: The adjustment levels have a poor BAB progression, giving ½ BAB per adjustment level. The above mentioned aranea would gain +2 BAB (total +5 for an ECL of 7).

Saves: The adjustment levels have a poor progression for all saves, giving 1/3 to each save per adjustment level. The above mentioned aranea would gain +1 to all saves (total fort +6, ref +6, will +5, for an ECL of 7).

Skills: Every adjustment level gives 2 skill points +int. A skill is a class skill for an adjustment level if it is a class skill for the base creature or any of the creatures classes. I mean, seriously, a bugbear rogue should be able to sneak just as well as a human rogue, everything else would be dumb.

The purpose of adjustment levels are to allow for level adjustments but not making larger amounts than +2 LA cripple an otherwise playable monster.
Some monsters have too low LAs for their abilities (half dragons) and others have too high LAs for their abilities (illithids, aranea, erinyes etc). If the adjustment level makes an LA creature too powerful, add more adjustment levels until an equilibrium is reached.

A table for ease of reference would look like this:
Adjustment levels
{table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save

1st|
+0|
+0|
+0|
+0

2nd|
+1|
+0|
+0|
+0

3rd|
+1|
+1|
+1|
+1

4th|
+2|
+1|
+1|
+1

5th|
+2|
+1|
+1|
+1

6th|
+3|
+2|
+2|
+2[/table]

Skill points per level equal to (2+int bonus)
Class skills are equal to base creatures class skills or class skills of the creatures character classes.

For adjustment levels above 6th, just add new ones starting over from 1st, same modifiers.


However, always remember this little thing:


If your DM can trust you not to break your character, your DM will trust you to play your character.

[Jack_Simth]

Interesting way to look at things, but....

LA and ECL is about how effective the creature is over the course of a campaign as part of a balanced party.

CR is about how effective the creature is over the course of a single battle against a balanced party.

They are two very different things.

Regeneration 1 (Fire and Acid penetrate), for instance, isn't going to notably impact an individual fight in the vast majority of cases. It's a pretty clear +0 CR addition (it doesn't make the opponent much tougher to defeat). However, for a PC, it means character death is very rare, and you almost never eat up party healing resources - it saves you a lot of character wealth, and makes your character a lot more survivable. This is worth around a +1 LA (give or take, depends on the campaign).

Mind you, you have a very interesting solution, that'll probably work - but it would definitely need playtesting.

Also, for some builds, the level adjustment is worthwhile even as it exists.
For example, for a melee character, if the attack bonus and hit points with the funny race is better that the attack bonus and hit points with a standard race, then the LA is generally worthwhile.

For example:
A Half-dragon is a +3 LA template with +8 Strength (+4 attack, and either +4 or +6 damage) and +2 Con. A Fighter-20 will have an attack bonus of 20 from BAB, plus whatever he gets from strength. A Half-dragon Fighter-17 will be three points lower on BAB, but will have a +4 strength bonus above and beyond what the Fighter-20 will have - which means the half-dragon Fighter-17 is actually ahead one point of attack bonus and several points of damage bonus. Likewise, in the case of the Fighter-20 vs. the Half-dragon Fighter-17, the Fighter-20 has 10+19d10+20*Con bonus HP. With a base Con bonus of +5 at that point, the Fighter-20 will have (on average) 214.5 hit points. The Half-dragon Fighter-17, on the other hand, will have 10+16d10+17*Con bonus HP - but is using a higher Con bonus. That +5 Con Bonus for the Fighter-20 becomes +6 on the Half-Dragon Fighter-17 - 200 hit points, on average. At that level, the half-dragon is behind by less than a single attack on his hit points, but is harder to hit due to the +4 natural armor. In a slugfest with a Fighter-20 vs. a Half-Dragon Fighter-17, the Half-Dragon is more likely to win than is the Fighter-20 (all else being equal) - he hits a little more often, he's a bit harder to hit, and he has approximately the same hit points.

This method you are proposing weights things even further in the half-dragon's favor - he's got even more hit points and BAB.

[Norr]

You are absolutely right. The half-dragon fighter would benefit a bit too much from adjustment levels, especially since the dragon HD is a D12. I might have to revise this thing a bit, since some creatrues need it badly and others are already overpowered without it (half-dragons being a case-in-point). I would actually consider lowering the half-dragons strength bonus to +4, but that is for another thread.
Another thread I'm tempted to make right now. ;p

[JackMage666]

I'm of the school of thought that the Monster Classes (from Savage Species) had the the right idea, though poor execution at times (the only one I've used, personally, was the Griffon, as per the leadership feat, to get a mount). I think if monster classes were refined, made much more fitting to PCs, it would likely be the best way to go about it.

[PePe QuiCoSE]

any comments on this (SRD) (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/reducingLevelAdjustments.htm) variant?

[Guyr Adamantine]

I'm not sure to understand, so please bear with me:

You add those levels (Equal to your LA) in addition to your hit dice, but they do not count toward ECL?

[fangthane]

OP: Level adjustment is fine as it is; you're either misunderstanding it or misrepresenting it. It's intended as a mechanism to prevent players and DMs from inadvertently (or deliberately) coming up with total cheese combinations. On the player side, it forces them to a higher effective character level, but not a higher challenge rating. On the DM's side, it provides a heads-up that perhaps the DM needs to reconsider the overall CR in light of that synergy. This is because typically creatures with a level adjustment provide such a massive synergy with at least one player-class that to put such potent capability in the players' hands at a relatively low level can be game-breaking. Burlew's half-ogre-fighter-with-spiked-chain-and-spring is such an example, for all that he brought it up in a tongue-in-cheek fashion. Half-dragons (mentioned earlier) are just one example of many, when it comes to synergistic race/class combinations; it's critical to realise that there's no way a character should have an Erinyes sorcerer or a squid-thingy wizard (or PMF/psion) at a flat ECL=HD.

PePe - I've played a bit with that alternate rule as a DM; I've found that despite its benefits, few people want to lag that far behind the curve. As such, while it appears that it'd be pretty nice to be able to invest in a LA reduction, most players (in my experience at least) are too wedded to immediate function to consider it. Even after having it pointed out that as a lower-level character than the rest of the party they'd be receiving much more xp than anyone else for a given encounter.

[PePe QuiCoSE]

PePe - I've played a bit with that alternate rule as a DM; I've found that despite its benefits, few people want to lag that far behind the curve. As such, while it appears that it'd be pretty nice to be able to invest in a LA reduction, most players (in my experience at least) are too wedded to immediate function to consider it. Even after having it pointed out that as a lower-level character than the rest of the party they'd be receiving much more xp than anyone else for a given encounter.Well, so the problem is the players choosing it, not the system per-se. Sounds good enough to try it.

[robotrobot2]

Quote:
Originally Posted by fangthane
PePe - I've played a bit with that alternate rule as a DM; I've found that despite its benefits, few people want to lag that far behind the curve. As such, while it appears that it'd be pretty nice to be able to invest in a LA reduction, most players (in my experience at least) are too wedded to immediate function to consider it. Even after having it pointed out that as a lower-level character than the rest of the party they'd be receiving much more xp than anyone else for a given encounter.

Actually, xp is calculated based upon ECL, not total level, so a PC using LA would not gain more xp than the rest of the party.

[PePe QuiCoSE]

robotrobot2, he was referring to the variant it's posted in the SRD for LA. This variant does put you behind in level than the rest of your non LA party. Check the link (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/reducingLevelAdjustments.htm) (aka, read what has already been posted).

[Norr]

@Jack_Simth: To adress your first point, you are absolutely right. However, an LA creature should still have an average 50% chance of besting a non-LA creature of the same ECL in single combat. The half-dragon is one of those creatures that has an LA that doesn't reflect its abilities, making it high-end. The aranea is on the other end of the scale, since with 3HD and an ECL of 7, it will get creamed by anything of the same challenge rating as its ECL.
The lizardfolk is CR 1, but a lizardfolk PC is ECL 3, meaning that it shouls, unmodified, be able to take on two other identical lizardfolk with 50% chance of winning every single encounter during a whole campain. You see, this is because every campain is composed of a string of single encounters. And the distinction between ECL and CR is not as distinct as you make it out to be.
Every level in a PC class is equal to 1 point of CR, meaning that a 10th level fighter has a CR of 10, wether he is a PC or not. This also means that two 10th level fighters have equal CR and have 50% chance of defeating his opponent. But CR and ECL differ in one way, and that is how PC are treated as opposed to monsters. 2 humanoid HD is worth 1 point of CR, which is why lizardfolk have CR 1. A PC lizardfolk is ECL 3, and therefore worth 3 points of CR in any given ancounter, which basically means he alone should be able to take on two others of his kind and have a 50% chance of winning. Simply being a PC doesn't change the odds that much.
Effectioveness in a single encounter versus effectiveness during the course of a campain simply doesn't work, because as an LA creature you have to perform no better and no worse than a normal standard race PC with a level equal to your ECL. That's why LA sometimes work and sometimes doesn't.

@JackMage666: Monster classes are a nice idea, but their only purpose is to allow you to play the monster from level 1. When the monster reaches its intended ECL and finishes the monster class, it's just another monster with a level adjustment. If that level adjustment makes the monster significantly weaker than its non-LA party members, the issue is still not adressed.

@PePe_QuiCoSE: I accidentally cut the link to that page form my first edit. ^^; Actually, I warmly recommend that method, but say you should double the level requirement for creatures that are powerful for their LA (I'm looking at you, half dragon).

@Guyr Adamantine: Your ECL is the same as before. You replace your LA with the AL. A lizardfolk fighter 1 would have two racial HD, 1 level of fighter and one adjustment level, giving him 3 extra hp compared to normal.

@fangthane: An erinyes sorcerer 2 would have its innate spell-like abilities DCs increase by 1 as they are based on HD. However she would only cast 1st level sorcerer spells, albeit with good DCs. However, would she fit in an 18th level party? her BAB would be 10, so armed combat won't do much good. Her best attack spells are magic missile (no DC) and unholy blight (DC 20, CR 18 monsters make that save 3 times out of 4). Her hp is not bad for a caster, and she can fly, but can't save worth a dang. No, she would never cut it as a caster, and neither as an armed combatant due to her low BAB. Sorry.
Squid-face is really cool, and I always wanted to play one, but it faces the same problems as the aforementioned erinyes. High LAs make these creatures unplayable in a normal party, mostly because of amped-up abilites they don't really need. I'm planning a series of monster-remake threads amending some of these features.
Also, "On the player side, it forces them to a higher effective character level, but not a higher challenge rating" You mean a CR 8 illithid (desogned to challenge a level 8 party) in a level 15 party will pull its weight against CR 15 challenges? Come on.

Also, both my AL would make both of them slightly better meleers, but won't advance spellcasting of added classes, so erinyes srocerer would still not be viable. Maybe I'll make a 'lesser erinyes' variety.

---
Basically, the biggest problem the adjustment level faces is those creatures who have high LAs because they are overpowered, and are made practically unplayable as a result. These creatures need a remake. Other creatures have low-medium-high LAs due to cool abilities that rarely influence combat, or lose utility as you level up. The Adjustment level is for those guys.