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insecure
2008-09-03, 04:18 PM
I was playing around with a new idea, an archer using maneuvers from ToB.
But most of the maneuvers seems to only be usable in melee...

So, I'm going to ask you, can this be done in spite of the lack of archer-maneuvers in some way? Have I forgot something? Should I just homebrew a new discipline or something?

Eldariel
2008-09-03, 04:28 PM
Well, the only offensive maneuvers that can actually be used with a bow are Dancing Mongoose, Raging Mongoose and Time Stands Still (and the Blood in Water+Giant's Stance-stances). Therefore, you should spend most of your time using White Raven-boost maneuvers (making you a Leader of sorts), counters and probably getting an Elvencraft bow ASAP to wade into melee given chance with either Strikes or just plain attack - generally worth keeping a Strike or two ready, along with general utility (Mountain Hammer for digging through any material, etc.). My personal favourite is Eternal Blade-archer, since so many of Eternal Blade's abilities synergize with Archery. I've got a rather well fleshed out build here (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=332.60) in case you're interested. Has lots of nice Intelligence-synergies that work with bow and can learn Dancing Mongoose and Time Stands Still (Raging Mongoose would take another feat). Also, has Spot, Knowledges and so on in class thanks to Ranger and pseudo-Sneak Attack from Drow of the Underdark Fighter Substitution-levels.

Other than that, there're plenty of homebrewed disciplines for ranged combat ("Falling Star" being the most popular - you can find it at Gleemax or our homebrew forum), which you could use. Even with just basic ToB though, a ToB Archer is very doable and I love the archetype since with just Power Attack, you can be both, a competent melee fighter and a very competent archer, and you have great capstones and all that, along with tons of versatility.

Ascension
2008-09-03, 04:32 PM
Sadly the ToB is built specifically to discourage this. By RAW only the Crusader gets proficiency with martial ranged weapons, the others are only proficient with martial melee weapons. Apart from the Shadow Hand and Desert Wind schools' ranged attacks, some utility powers, and a few stances, the maneuvers are no good for ranged combat either. It's a crying shame that there isn't a ranged combat school or a ToB-like combat system for archers, since without crazy optimization archers tend to get the short end of the stick in D&D. I've seen some stuff in the homebrew forum here attempting to correct this, though I can't recall any specific threads off the top of my head.

hamishspence
2008-09-03, 04:34 PM
can crusader go white-raven heavy + bow? Is that a significant cut in power- would a bow crusader be able to get by?

Eldariel
2008-09-03, 04:35 PM
Warblade is probably better. But yea, that's how I do it - Warblade with bow proficiencies from Ranger/Fighter/Elfness and focus on White Raven while using Tiger Claw/Diamond Mind for the combat. Crusader would work, but any of the maneuvers aren't on Crusader-list, so you need to PrC out a lot to learn the ones that work with Bows (and the ones that do are great). Crusader Recovery > Warblade, especially with a bow though (Warblade requires melee attack or a standard action - latter is doable with Belt of Battle, but bleh), so it's a tradeoff either way.

Knaight
2008-09-03, 04:37 PM
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10707&highlight=falling+star
Falling Star Discipline.
http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=771597
A more balanced Falling Star Discipline, with different flavor.
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2502689
A third Falling Star Discipline.

insecure
2008-09-03, 04:37 PM
Read your archer build, Eldariel, and I likes it, though I don't have acces to all the feats and such.

By the way, I just found a new archer class on the homebrew forum that I like.:smallsmile:

EDIT: Gonna take a look on the falling star discipline later.

AstralFire
2008-09-03, 04:42 PM
I've used the Gleemax/Tempest Stormwind Falling Star before on a Swordsage (I can see Archer fitting with any of the classes, frankly), I enjoyed it muchly.

Eldariel
2008-09-03, 04:46 PM
Read your archer build, Eldariel, and I likes it, though I don't have acces to all the feats and such.

By the way, I just found a new archer class on the homebrew forum that I like.:smallsmile:

EDIT: Gonna take a look on the falling star discipline later.

Out of the build I posted, only Woodland Archer (Races of the Wild), Ranged Weapon Mastery (Player's Handbook II) and Knowledge Devotion (Complete Champion) aren't core. Of course, since all of those are pretty important (Knowledge Devotion is responsible for the main damage/to hit advantage over Fighter Archers, Ranged Weapon Mastery is really the only way to make Weapon Focus-tree worth it and Woodland Archer makes the later level flurries incredible), but out of those, only Ranged Weapon Mastery is something I'd really vouch on. For the record, here's what the feats do and require:
Knowledge Devotion - Requires 5 ranks in any Knowledge
-Get any Knowledge of choice as a class skill for all classes
-You may roll Knowledge vs. every enemy you've got trained Knowledge against - 15 or less = +1 to hit and damage, 16-25 = +2, 26-30 = +3, 31-35 = +4 and 36+ = +5.

Great combo with Eternal Knowledge to get trained checks against anything without burning skillpoints (and you still get your Int-modifier and E.Blade level to the check, so they're pretty high)

Ranged Weapon Mastery - Requires Weapon Specialization, +8 BAB
With Ranged Weapons dealing certain type of damage (Piercing in this case), get +2 to hit and damage, and 20' extra range.

Really awesome for archers with difficulty of improving To Hit and damage.

Woodland Archer - Requires Point Blank Shot, +6 BAB
Tactical feat.

Option 1: Whenever you miss with a ranged weapon, get +4 to all successive attacks on the same turn, stacks with itself.

Option 2: If you hit a guy with concealment, your attacks next turn against that opponent ignore the concealment.

Option 3: If you succeed in Sniping an opponent, you can Snipe again on the next turn, taking a single move action along the Snipe if you succeed.

Vazzaroth
2008-09-03, 05:04 PM
The way I would build an Archer is as a Swordsage. Mostly because I would specialize in Setting Sun and Unarmed Combat besides the Ranged Weapon. Enemy closing the distance, Throw them back. A couple of Diamond Mind, especially it's Time Stands Still, are good, and you can take some of the Stone Dragon stances mentioned, I think. You'd have to give up White Raven, but I think it's a good Chaotic Archer character build.

And Point Blank Shot is a must.

Eldariel
2008-09-03, 05:06 PM
The problem with Swordsage is that you have a medium BAB, and you get no notable Archery-bonuses compared to full BAB classes (unlike with Strikes, where you have a real, tangible advantage over other classes), so you'll end up behind in terms of archery compared to the full BAB classes.

That said, Master of the Nine is great for archery - get Mastery of the Nine, use it with Time Stands Still and profit! Also, Swordsage also has both, Diamond Mind and Tiger Claw. However, since Warblade has both too and couples them with the White Raven, it tends to work better.

AstralFire
2008-09-03, 05:07 PM
The problem with Swordsage is that you have a medium BAB, and you get no notable Archery-bonuses compared to full BAB classes (unlike with Strikes, where you have a real, tangible advantage over other classes), so you'll end up behind in terms of archery compared to the full BAB classes.

That said, Master of the Nine is great for archery - get Mastery of the Nine, use it with Time Stands Still and profit! Also, Swordsage also has both, Diamond Mind and Tiger Claw. However, since Warblade has both too and couples them with the White Raven, it tends to work better.

Zen Archery.

Eldariel
2008-09-03, 05:08 PM
Zen Archery.

Makes little difference - you can max out Wis or Dex, neither will notably exceed the other, so you won't hit notably better than comparable Dex-based archer, and the BAB difference isn't made up for. Further, you're already feat intensive and in a class without bonus feats, so it's expensive to burn one on Wis-based archery (good for a combo with Wis-based save maneuvers though).

AstralFire
2008-09-03, 05:09 PM
Makes little difference - you can max out Wis or Dex, neither will notably exceed the other, so you won't hit notably better than comparable Dex-based archer, and the BAB difference isn't made up for.

Yes, but you are also improving the saves for your abilities, and Falling Star has a few of those. Not to mention that ability to add wis to damage from strikes, I forget if that's Mo9S or a feat. That's nothing amazing, but it adds up, especially at low levels or using an ability like Time Stands Still.

At least I THINK Falling Star uses Wis. Might actually be wrong on that. been a while.

Eldariel
2008-09-03, 05:17 PM
Also, one important quality of Warblade is qualifying for Fighter-feats. Having access to Weapon Specialization > Ranged Weapon Mastery without having to take 4 levels of Fighter (and thus giving up Ranger, Spot, Hide, etc.) is pretty sweet. But yea, for ranged strikes, Swordsage is great (it's a Swordsage-ability to get Wis to Strikes of a school). Also, Swordsage/MoTN with Time Stands Still is just brutal. However, the problem is that SS lags badly behind before it reaches that point, while Warblade keeps along with Fighter et al. quite well.

But yea, if Falling Star is Wis-based, Zen Archery is a fine option. In fact, may be recommendable for the Warblade Archer too.

EDIT: At least Stormwind's is a mix of Dexterity- and Wisdom-based saves. Go figure.

Oslecamo
2008-09-03, 05:19 PM
Yeah, of course maneuvers own everything. As long as you create them yourself.

ToB was created for melee combat. It's called the book of 9 swords for something.

Dode
2008-09-03, 05:30 PM
Roll up a Scout who has a level in Warblade so he can use that Tiger Claw Manuever that lets him jump as a swift action